Why is there an “implication” rather than and “and” in this definition of the derivative?












3














I am readig Pugh's Analysis book:




Definition



Let $f:U to mathbb{R}^m$ be given where $U$ is an open subset of $mathbb{R}^n$. The function $f$ is differentiable a $p in U$ with derivative $(Df)_p = T$ if $T:mathbb{R}^n to mathbb{R}^m$ is a linear transformation and $f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v) implies lim_{|v| to 0} dfrac {R(v)}{|v|}=0$.




Partly due to the missing quantifiers, I'm having trouble understanding why there is a "$implies$" there rather than a "$wedge$". Isn't it more natural to say



"T is the derivative if we can write $f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v)$ AND $lim_{|v| to 0} dfrac {R(v)}{|v|}=0$"?



I'm having trouble seeing what the impact of changing these would be.










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 1




    It would probably be clearer to write "...is a linear transformation and $lim_{|v| to 0} R(V)/|v| = 0$, where $R(v) = f(p+v) - f(p) - T(v)$.
    – Bungo
    Dec 18 at 0:29










  • @Bungo Thanks for the reply. I've seen that definition in another book as well. I'm having trouble understanding how that definition related to Pugh's; is it equivalent to the definition with $implies$? Or to the one with $wedge$? Or is the one with $wedge$ nonsense? I have a vague feeling that $implies$ and $wedge$ won't matter because the derivative is unique, but I don't really understand it.
    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 0:35
















3














I am readig Pugh's Analysis book:




Definition



Let $f:U to mathbb{R}^m$ be given where $U$ is an open subset of $mathbb{R}^n$. The function $f$ is differentiable a $p in U$ with derivative $(Df)_p = T$ if $T:mathbb{R}^n to mathbb{R}^m$ is a linear transformation and $f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v) implies lim_{|v| to 0} dfrac {R(v)}{|v|}=0$.




Partly due to the missing quantifiers, I'm having trouble understanding why there is a "$implies$" there rather than a "$wedge$". Isn't it more natural to say



"T is the derivative if we can write $f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v)$ AND $lim_{|v| to 0} dfrac {R(v)}{|v|}=0$"?



I'm having trouble seeing what the impact of changing these would be.










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 1




    It would probably be clearer to write "...is a linear transformation and $lim_{|v| to 0} R(V)/|v| = 0$, where $R(v) = f(p+v) - f(p) - T(v)$.
    – Bungo
    Dec 18 at 0:29










  • @Bungo Thanks for the reply. I've seen that definition in another book as well. I'm having trouble understanding how that definition related to Pugh's; is it equivalent to the definition with $implies$? Or to the one with $wedge$? Or is the one with $wedge$ nonsense? I have a vague feeling that $implies$ and $wedge$ won't matter because the derivative is unique, but I don't really understand it.
    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 0:35














3












3








3







I am readig Pugh's Analysis book:




Definition



Let $f:U to mathbb{R}^m$ be given where $U$ is an open subset of $mathbb{R}^n$. The function $f$ is differentiable a $p in U$ with derivative $(Df)_p = T$ if $T:mathbb{R}^n to mathbb{R}^m$ is a linear transformation and $f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v) implies lim_{|v| to 0} dfrac {R(v)}{|v|}=0$.




Partly due to the missing quantifiers, I'm having trouble understanding why there is a "$implies$" there rather than a "$wedge$". Isn't it more natural to say



"T is the derivative if we can write $f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v)$ AND $lim_{|v| to 0} dfrac {R(v)}{|v|}=0$"?



I'm having trouble seeing what the impact of changing these would be.










share|cite|improve this question















I am readig Pugh's Analysis book:




Definition



Let $f:U to mathbb{R}^m$ be given where $U$ is an open subset of $mathbb{R}^n$. The function $f$ is differentiable a $p in U$ with derivative $(Df)_p = T$ if $T:mathbb{R}^n to mathbb{R}^m$ is a linear transformation and $f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v) implies lim_{|v| to 0} dfrac {R(v)}{|v|}=0$.




Partly due to the missing quantifiers, I'm having trouble understanding why there is a "$implies$" there rather than a "$wedge$". Isn't it more natural to say



"T is the derivative if we can write $f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v)$ AND $lim_{|v| to 0} dfrac {R(v)}{|v|}=0$"?



I'm having trouble seeing what the impact of changing these would be.







real-analysis analysis logic frechet-derivative






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Dec 18 at 0:32

























asked Dec 18 at 0:24









Ovi

12.3k1038110




12.3k1038110








  • 1




    It would probably be clearer to write "...is a linear transformation and $lim_{|v| to 0} R(V)/|v| = 0$, where $R(v) = f(p+v) - f(p) - T(v)$.
    – Bungo
    Dec 18 at 0:29










  • @Bungo Thanks for the reply. I've seen that definition in another book as well. I'm having trouble understanding how that definition related to Pugh's; is it equivalent to the definition with $implies$? Or to the one with $wedge$? Or is the one with $wedge$ nonsense? I have a vague feeling that $implies$ and $wedge$ won't matter because the derivative is unique, but I don't really understand it.
    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 0:35














  • 1




    It would probably be clearer to write "...is a linear transformation and $lim_{|v| to 0} R(V)/|v| = 0$, where $R(v) = f(p+v) - f(p) - T(v)$.
    – Bungo
    Dec 18 at 0:29










  • @Bungo Thanks for the reply. I've seen that definition in another book as well. I'm having trouble understanding how that definition related to Pugh's; is it equivalent to the definition with $implies$? Or to the one with $wedge$? Or is the one with $wedge$ nonsense? I have a vague feeling that $implies$ and $wedge$ won't matter because the derivative is unique, but I don't really understand it.
    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 0:35








1




1




It would probably be clearer to write "...is a linear transformation and $lim_{|v| to 0} R(V)/|v| = 0$, where $R(v) = f(p+v) - f(p) - T(v)$.
– Bungo
Dec 18 at 0:29




It would probably be clearer to write "...is a linear transformation and $lim_{|v| to 0} R(V)/|v| = 0$, where $R(v) = f(p+v) - f(p) - T(v)$.
– Bungo
Dec 18 at 0:29












@Bungo Thanks for the reply. I've seen that definition in another book as well. I'm having trouble understanding how that definition related to Pugh's; is it equivalent to the definition with $implies$? Or to the one with $wedge$? Or is the one with $wedge$ nonsense? I have a vague feeling that $implies$ and $wedge$ won't matter because the derivative is unique, but I don't really understand it.
– Ovi
Dec 18 at 0:35




@Bungo Thanks for the reply. I've seen that definition in another book as well. I'm having trouble understanding how that definition related to Pugh's; is it equivalent to the definition with $implies$? Or to the one with $wedge$? Or is the one with $wedge$ nonsense? I have a vague feeling that $implies$ and $wedge$ won't matter because the derivative is unique, but I don't really understand it.
– Ovi
Dec 18 at 0:35










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















4














The author means



$$forall R left((forall v ~ f(p+v) = f(p) + T(v) + R(v)) implies lim_{|v| to 0} frac{R(v)}{|v|} = 0right)$$



which is taking advantage of how only one function for $R$ satisfies the condition. You are maybe thinking something like



$$ bigg(R = v mapsto f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v)bigg) land bigg(lim_{|v| to 0} frac{R(v)}{|v|} = 0bigg)$$



The problem with the second equation is that it isn't defining $R$ as $v mapsto f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v)$, it is saying 'if' $R$ is defined as such. Alternatively,



$$begin{cases} text{define } R text{ as } v mapsto f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v) \
lim_{|v| to 0} frac{R(v)}{|v|} = 0 end{cases}$$



is an option, in that case sort of using 'and' in the casual sequential sense, like 'crack the egg and put the egg in the bowl and beat the egg and pour the egg into the pan...'.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Thanks for the response! I think I understand it but it seems really really weird; your third approach seems the most natural and I don't see anybody would use anything else; will have to digest it more.
    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 1:12












  • It seems like the author is using the first route just so he can avoid making a definition for $R$ before the actual definition of differentiability?
    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 1:14






  • 1




    Yeah, it is odd he didn't bother directly using a definition, and also didn't just write $$lim_{|v| to 0} frac{f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v)}{|v|} = 0$$
    – DanielV
    Dec 18 at 1:36










  • If I could ask you another thing; can I formulate it like this? $f: mathbb{R}^n to mathbb{R}^m$ is differentiable at $p$ if $exists T exists R forall v : left( dfrac{}{} f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v) right) wedge left( lim_{v to 0} dfrac {|R(v)|}{|v|} = 0 right) $?
    – Ovi
    Dec 20 at 16:55












  • @Ovi You should take the $exists T$ off because $T$ is being defined so it must be left free in the definition, but otherwise yes that is fine. It is a common trick when encoding things in First Order Logic to convert $a = f(g(b))$ to $exists y~(a = f(y) land y = g(b))$
    – DanielV
    Dec 20 at 19:43





















2














I can't speak for Pugh, but your construction




T is the derivative if we can write $f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v)$ AND $lim_{|v| to 0} dfrac {R(v)}{|v|}=0$




is awkward because neither the left nor the right side of the "AND" is a property of $T$ that needs checking. The left side is always true; you can always do that. And the right side makes no sense unless $R$ is constrained.



Look at it this way, would you write the following?




T is the derivative if $lim_{|v| to 0} dfrac {R(v)}{|v|}=0$ AND we can write $f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v)$







share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Thank you for the response!
    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 1:17











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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









4














The author means



$$forall R left((forall v ~ f(p+v) = f(p) + T(v) + R(v)) implies lim_{|v| to 0} frac{R(v)}{|v|} = 0right)$$



which is taking advantage of how only one function for $R$ satisfies the condition. You are maybe thinking something like



$$ bigg(R = v mapsto f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v)bigg) land bigg(lim_{|v| to 0} frac{R(v)}{|v|} = 0bigg)$$



The problem with the second equation is that it isn't defining $R$ as $v mapsto f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v)$, it is saying 'if' $R$ is defined as such. Alternatively,



$$begin{cases} text{define } R text{ as } v mapsto f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v) \
lim_{|v| to 0} frac{R(v)}{|v|} = 0 end{cases}$$



is an option, in that case sort of using 'and' in the casual sequential sense, like 'crack the egg and put the egg in the bowl and beat the egg and pour the egg into the pan...'.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Thanks for the response! I think I understand it but it seems really really weird; your third approach seems the most natural and I don't see anybody would use anything else; will have to digest it more.
    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 1:12












  • It seems like the author is using the first route just so he can avoid making a definition for $R$ before the actual definition of differentiability?
    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 1:14






  • 1




    Yeah, it is odd he didn't bother directly using a definition, and also didn't just write $$lim_{|v| to 0} frac{f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v)}{|v|} = 0$$
    – DanielV
    Dec 18 at 1:36










  • If I could ask you another thing; can I formulate it like this? $f: mathbb{R}^n to mathbb{R}^m$ is differentiable at $p$ if $exists T exists R forall v : left( dfrac{}{} f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v) right) wedge left( lim_{v to 0} dfrac {|R(v)|}{|v|} = 0 right) $?
    – Ovi
    Dec 20 at 16:55












  • @Ovi You should take the $exists T$ off because $T$ is being defined so it must be left free in the definition, but otherwise yes that is fine. It is a common trick when encoding things in First Order Logic to convert $a = f(g(b))$ to $exists y~(a = f(y) land y = g(b))$
    – DanielV
    Dec 20 at 19:43


















4














The author means



$$forall R left((forall v ~ f(p+v) = f(p) + T(v) + R(v)) implies lim_{|v| to 0} frac{R(v)}{|v|} = 0right)$$



which is taking advantage of how only one function for $R$ satisfies the condition. You are maybe thinking something like



$$ bigg(R = v mapsto f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v)bigg) land bigg(lim_{|v| to 0} frac{R(v)}{|v|} = 0bigg)$$



The problem with the second equation is that it isn't defining $R$ as $v mapsto f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v)$, it is saying 'if' $R$ is defined as such. Alternatively,



$$begin{cases} text{define } R text{ as } v mapsto f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v) \
lim_{|v| to 0} frac{R(v)}{|v|} = 0 end{cases}$$



is an option, in that case sort of using 'and' in the casual sequential sense, like 'crack the egg and put the egg in the bowl and beat the egg and pour the egg into the pan...'.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Thanks for the response! I think I understand it but it seems really really weird; your third approach seems the most natural and I don't see anybody would use anything else; will have to digest it more.
    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 1:12












  • It seems like the author is using the first route just so he can avoid making a definition for $R$ before the actual definition of differentiability?
    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 1:14






  • 1




    Yeah, it is odd he didn't bother directly using a definition, and also didn't just write $$lim_{|v| to 0} frac{f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v)}{|v|} = 0$$
    – DanielV
    Dec 18 at 1:36










  • If I could ask you another thing; can I formulate it like this? $f: mathbb{R}^n to mathbb{R}^m$ is differentiable at $p$ if $exists T exists R forall v : left( dfrac{}{} f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v) right) wedge left( lim_{v to 0} dfrac {|R(v)|}{|v|} = 0 right) $?
    – Ovi
    Dec 20 at 16:55












  • @Ovi You should take the $exists T$ off because $T$ is being defined so it must be left free in the definition, but otherwise yes that is fine. It is a common trick when encoding things in First Order Logic to convert $a = f(g(b))$ to $exists y~(a = f(y) land y = g(b))$
    – DanielV
    Dec 20 at 19:43
















4












4








4






The author means



$$forall R left((forall v ~ f(p+v) = f(p) + T(v) + R(v)) implies lim_{|v| to 0} frac{R(v)}{|v|} = 0right)$$



which is taking advantage of how only one function for $R$ satisfies the condition. You are maybe thinking something like



$$ bigg(R = v mapsto f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v)bigg) land bigg(lim_{|v| to 0} frac{R(v)}{|v|} = 0bigg)$$



The problem with the second equation is that it isn't defining $R$ as $v mapsto f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v)$, it is saying 'if' $R$ is defined as such. Alternatively,



$$begin{cases} text{define } R text{ as } v mapsto f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v) \
lim_{|v| to 0} frac{R(v)}{|v|} = 0 end{cases}$$



is an option, in that case sort of using 'and' in the casual sequential sense, like 'crack the egg and put the egg in the bowl and beat the egg and pour the egg into the pan...'.






share|cite|improve this answer












The author means



$$forall R left((forall v ~ f(p+v) = f(p) + T(v) + R(v)) implies lim_{|v| to 0} frac{R(v)}{|v|} = 0right)$$



which is taking advantage of how only one function for $R$ satisfies the condition. You are maybe thinking something like



$$ bigg(R = v mapsto f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v)bigg) land bigg(lim_{|v| to 0} frac{R(v)}{|v|} = 0bigg)$$



The problem with the second equation is that it isn't defining $R$ as $v mapsto f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v)$, it is saying 'if' $R$ is defined as such. Alternatively,



$$begin{cases} text{define } R text{ as } v mapsto f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v) \
lim_{|v| to 0} frac{R(v)}{|v|} = 0 end{cases}$$



is an option, in that case sort of using 'and' in the casual sequential sense, like 'crack the egg and put the egg in the bowl and beat the egg and pour the egg into the pan...'.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Dec 18 at 1:00









DanielV

17.8k42754




17.8k42754












  • Thanks for the response! I think I understand it but it seems really really weird; your third approach seems the most natural and I don't see anybody would use anything else; will have to digest it more.
    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 1:12












  • It seems like the author is using the first route just so he can avoid making a definition for $R$ before the actual definition of differentiability?
    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 1:14






  • 1




    Yeah, it is odd he didn't bother directly using a definition, and also didn't just write $$lim_{|v| to 0} frac{f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v)}{|v|} = 0$$
    – DanielV
    Dec 18 at 1:36










  • If I could ask you another thing; can I formulate it like this? $f: mathbb{R}^n to mathbb{R}^m$ is differentiable at $p$ if $exists T exists R forall v : left( dfrac{}{} f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v) right) wedge left( lim_{v to 0} dfrac {|R(v)|}{|v|} = 0 right) $?
    – Ovi
    Dec 20 at 16:55












  • @Ovi You should take the $exists T$ off because $T$ is being defined so it must be left free in the definition, but otherwise yes that is fine. It is a common trick when encoding things in First Order Logic to convert $a = f(g(b))$ to $exists y~(a = f(y) land y = g(b))$
    – DanielV
    Dec 20 at 19:43




















  • Thanks for the response! I think I understand it but it seems really really weird; your third approach seems the most natural and I don't see anybody would use anything else; will have to digest it more.
    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 1:12












  • It seems like the author is using the first route just so he can avoid making a definition for $R$ before the actual definition of differentiability?
    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 1:14






  • 1




    Yeah, it is odd he didn't bother directly using a definition, and also didn't just write $$lim_{|v| to 0} frac{f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v)}{|v|} = 0$$
    – DanielV
    Dec 18 at 1:36










  • If I could ask you another thing; can I formulate it like this? $f: mathbb{R}^n to mathbb{R}^m$ is differentiable at $p$ if $exists T exists R forall v : left( dfrac{}{} f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v) right) wedge left( lim_{v to 0} dfrac {|R(v)|}{|v|} = 0 right) $?
    – Ovi
    Dec 20 at 16:55












  • @Ovi You should take the $exists T$ off because $T$ is being defined so it must be left free in the definition, but otherwise yes that is fine. It is a common trick when encoding things in First Order Logic to convert $a = f(g(b))$ to $exists y~(a = f(y) land y = g(b))$
    – DanielV
    Dec 20 at 19:43


















Thanks for the response! I think I understand it but it seems really really weird; your third approach seems the most natural and I don't see anybody would use anything else; will have to digest it more.
– Ovi
Dec 18 at 1:12






Thanks for the response! I think I understand it but it seems really really weird; your third approach seems the most natural and I don't see anybody would use anything else; will have to digest it more.
– Ovi
Dec 18 at 1:12














It seems like the author is using the first route just so he can avoid making a definition for $R$ before the actual definition of differentiability?
– Ovi
Dec 18 at 1:14




It seems like the author is using the first route just so he can avoid making a definition for $R$ before the actual definition of differentiability?
– Ovi
Dec 18 at 1:14




1




1




Yeah, it is odd he didn't bother directly using a definition, and also didn't just write $$lim_{|v| to 0} frac{f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v)}{|v|} = 0$$
– DanielV
Dec 18 at 1:36




Yeah, it is odd he didn't bother directly using a definition, and also didn't just write $$lim_{|v| to 0} frac{f(p + v) - f(p) - T(v)}{|v|} = 0$$
– DanielV
Dec 18 at 1:36












If I could ask you another thing; can I formulate it like this? $f: mathbb{R}^n to mathbb{R}^m$ is differentiable at $p$ if $exists T exists R forall v : left( dfrac{}{} f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v) right) wedge left( lim_{v to 0} dfrac {|R(v)|}{|v|} = 0 right) $?
– Ovi
Dec 20 at 16:55






If I could ask you another thing; can I formulate it like this? $f: mathbb{R}^n to mathbb{R}^m$ is differentiable at $p$ if $exists T exists R forall v : left( dfrac{}{} f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v) right) wedge left( lim_{v to 0} dfrac {|R(v)|}{|v|} = 0 right) $?
– Ovi
Dec 20 at 16:55














@Ovi You should take the $exists T$ off because $T$ is being defined so it must be left free in the definition, but otherwise yes that is fine. It is a common trick when encoding things in First Order Logic to convert $a = f(g(b))$ to $exists y~(a = f(y) land y = g(b))$
– DanielV
Dec 20 at 19:43






@Ovi You should take the $exists T$ off because $T$ is being defined so it must be left free in the definition, but otherwise yes that is fine. It is a common trick when encoding things in First Order Logic to convert $a = f(g(b))$ to $exists y~(a = f(y) land y = g(b))$
– DanielV
Dec 20 at 19:43













2














I can't speak for Pugh, but your construction




T is the derivative if we can write $f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v)$ AND $lim_{|v| to 0} dfrac {R(v)}{|v|}=0$




is awkward because neither the left nor the right side of the "AND" is a property of $T$ that needs checking. The left side is always true; you can always do that. And the right side makes no sense unless $R$ is constrained.



Look at it this way, would you write the following?




T is the derivative if $lim_{|v| to 0} dfrac {R(v)}{|v|}=0$ AND we can write $f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v)$







share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Thank you for the response!
    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 1:17
















2














I can't speak for Pugh, but your construction




T is the derivative if we can write $f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v)$ AND $lim_{|v| to 0} dfrac {R(v)}{|v|}=0$




is awkward because neither the left nor the right side of the "AND" is a property of $T$ that needs checking. The left side is always true; you can always do that. And the right side makes no sense unless $R$ is constrained.



Look at it this way, would you write the following?




T is the derivative if $lim_{|v| to 0} dfrac {R(v)}{|v|}=0$ AND we can write $f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v)$







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    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 1:17














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I can't speak for Pugh, but your construction




T is the derivative if we can write $f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v)$ AND $lim_{|v| to 0} dfrac {R(v)}{|v|}=0$




is awkward because neither the left nor the right side of the "AND" is a property of $T$ that needs checking. The left side is always true; you can always do that. And the right side makes no sense unless $R$ is constrained.



Look at it this way, would you write the following?




T is the derivative if $lim_{|v| to 0} dfrac {R(v)}{|v|}=0$ AND we can write $f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v)$







share|cite|improve this answer












I can't speak for Pugh, but your construction




T is the derivative if we can write $f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v)$ AND $lim_{|v| to 0} dfrac {R(v)}{|v|}=0$




is awkward because neither the left nor the right side of the "AND" is a property of $T$ that needs checking. The left side is always true; you can always do that. And the right side makes no sense unless $R$ is constrained.



Look at it this way, would you write the following?




T is the derivative if $lim_{|v| to 0} dfrac {R(v)}{|v|}=0$ AND we can write $f(p+v) = f(p)+T(v)+R(v)$








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share|cite|improve this answer



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answered Dec 18 at 1:02









Chris Culter

20k43482




20k43482












  • Thank you for the response!
    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 1:17


















  • Thank you for the response!
    – Ovi
    Dec 18 at 1:17
















Thank you for the response!
– Ovi
Dec 18 at 1:17




Thank you for the response!
– Ovi
Dec 18 at 1:17


















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