Can the damage from a Talisman of Pure Good (or Ultimate Evil) be non-lethal?












9












$begingroup$


This is a direct follow-up to this other question of mine and assumes that, indeed, one may wield a Talisman of Pure Good (or a Talisman of Ultimate Evil) as an improvised weapon and apply both the regular melee damage from an improvised weapon plus the Talisman's radiant/necrotic damage if the creature is not of the right alignment.



The Player's Handbook states the following about Knocking a Creature Out:




Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable.




Can one decide to strike a maligned foe non-lethally (and therefore knock them out instead of killing them) with a Talisman of Pure Good (or Ultimate Evil)?



My hesitation relies on the fact that the radiant/necrotic damage from the Talisman does not directly come from the melee attack, but rather from the item. I think it might still work, but I am unsure.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Your first paragraph reads like you've already made your decision. Your final paragraph seems a bit more shaky. My answer is based on the more confident first paragraph. This would be a better question, if you can bring the two into closer alignment. If you've decided "yes, it adds to the attack's damage" this question has one answer. If you've decided "no, it is separate damage" this question has a different answer.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    8 hours ago
















9












$begingroup$


This is a direct follow-up to this other question of mine and assumes that, indeed, one may wield a Talisman of Pure Good (or a Talisman of Ultimate Evil) as an improvised weapon and apply both the regular melee damage from an improvised weapon plus the Talisman's radiant/necrotic damage if the creature is not of the right alignment.



The Player's Handbook states the following about Knocking a Creature Out:




Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable.




Can one decide to strike a maligned foe non-lethally (and therefore knock them out instead of killing them) with a Talisman of Pure Good (or Ultimate Evil)?



My hesitation relies on the fact that the radiant/necrotic damage from the Talisman does not directly come from the melee attack, but rather from the item. I think it might still work, but I am unsure.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Your first paragraph reads like you've already made your decision. Your final paragraph seems a bit more shaky. My answer is based on the more confident first paragraph. This would be a better question, if you can bring the two into closer alignment. If you've decided "yes, it adds to the attack's damage" this question has one answer. If you've decided "no, it is separate damage" this question has a different answer.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    8 hours ago














9












9








9





$begingroup$


This is a direct follow-up to this other question of mine and assumes that, indeed, one may wield a Talisman of Pure Good (or a Talisman of Ultimate Evil) as an improvised weapon and apply both the regular melee damage from an improvised weapon plus the Talisman's radiant/necrotic damage if the creature is not of the right alignment.



The Player's Handbook states the following about Knocking a Creature Out:




Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable.




Can one decide to strike a maligned foe non-lethally (and therefore knock them out instead of killing them) with a Talisman of Pure Good (or Ultimate Evil)?



My hesitation relies on the fact that the radiant/necrotic damage from the Talisman does not directly come from the melee attack, but rather from the item. I think it might still work, but I am unsure.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




This is a direct follow-up to this other question of mine and assumes that, indeed, one may wield a Talisman of Pure Good (or a Talisman of Ultimate Evil) as an improvised weapon and apply both the regular melee damage from an improvised weapon plus the Talisman's radiant/necrotic damage if the creature is not of the right alignment.



The Player's Handbook states the following about Knocking a Creature Out:




Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable.




Can one decide to strike a maligned foe non-lethally (and therefore knock them out instead of killing them) with a Talisman of Pure Good (or Ultimate Evil)?



My hesitation relies on the fact that the radiant/necrotic damage from the Talisman does not directly come from the melee attack, but rather from the item. I think it might still work, but I am unsure.







dnd-5e magic-items combat improvised-weaponry






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 10 hours ago









V2Blast

24.6k383155




24.6k383155










asked 15 hours ago









Gael LGael L

9,052341170




9,052341170












  • $begingroup$
    Your first paragraph reads like you've already made your decision. Your final paragraph seems a bit more shaky. My answer is based on the more confident first paragraph. This would be a better question, if you can bring the two into closer alignment. If you've decided "yes, it adds to the attack's damage" this question has one answer. If you've decided "no, it is separate damage" this question has a different answer.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    8 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    Your first paragraph reads like you've already made your decision. Your final paragraph seems a bit more shaky. My answer is based on the more confident first paragraph. This would be a better question, if you can bring the two into closer alignment. If you've decided "yes, it adds to the attack's damage" this question has one answer. If you've decided "no, it is separate damage" this question has a different answer.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    8 hours ago
















$begingroup$
Your first paragraph reads like you've already made your decision. Your final paragraph seems a bit more shaky. My answer is based on the more confident first paragraph. This would be a better question, if you can bring the two into closer alignment. If you've decided "yes, it adds to the attack's damage" this question has one answer. If you've decided "no, it is separate damage" this question has a different answer.
$endgroup$
– T.J.L.
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
Your first paragraph reads like you've already made your decision. Your final paragraph seems a bit more shaky. My answer is based on the more confident first paragraph. This would be a better question, if you can bring the two into closer alignment. If you've decided "yes, it adds to the attack's damage" this question has one answer. If you've decided "no, it is separate damage" this question has a different answer.
$endgroup$
– T.J.L.
8 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















10












$begingroup$

No



Your quote specifically states a "melee attack," but the damage from the Talisman occurs after (when they touch it), so it isn't an attack.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    You're ignoring the parameters supplied before the quote. In the context of this question, the Talisman itself is being used as a weapon and the damage does apply to the attack.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @T.J.L. what I'm trying into the I say here is that the damage comes after the attack.
    $endgroup$
    – NoOneIsHere
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    And the querent is saying they have already decided that is not the case. They have decided it is part of the attack. This answer might be viable for the linked question, but here it is ignoring the explicitly provided context.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    10 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    @T.J.L. I see. I still think the answer is fine.
    $endgroup$
    – NoOneIsHere
    9 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    @T.J.L. OP said "My hesitation relies on the fact that the radiant/necrotic damage from the Talisman does not directly come from the melee attack, but rather from the item." Which to me makes it sound like it is not a foregone conclusion. This answer clearly addresses that concern.
    $endgroup$
    – D.Spetz
    9 hours ago



















8












$begingroup$

Any melee attack can be a knock-out blow.



You've quoted the complete rules on the matter. The type of damage is not relevant, only the source of the attack - melee or ranged. Both a melee weapon attack and a melee spell attack are melee attacks.



Another user asked What is "Force" Damage? In that case, they were asking how to describe wounds, but I made a key point in my answer:




Until a source of damage interacts with something with resistance, immunity, vulnerability, or some other ability that cites an interaction with a type of damage, the damage type is functionally meaningless.




In D&D5E, you can just as easily fire-damage somebody into unconsciousness (via Flame Blade, a melee spell attack) or shock them into submission (via Shocking Grasp), as you can beat them within an inch of their life. You cannot Lightning Bolt or Fire Bolt somebody without the risk of killing them, because neither of those two spells involves a melee attack (one is a save, the other is a ranged spell attack).



The Talisman may not be an attack at all.



While it isn't written that way, I suspect the intention of that passage is when an unworthy character touches the talisman willingly. If you're allowing that feature to be used offensively, by pressing it against the unworthy, you're dipping into homebrew territory anyway.



If you're allowing a character to make a melee attack with a Talisman and you are considering the damage part of the attack (as your initial paragraph indicates), then yes, it would work as you describe. A melee attack is a melee attack, and by the rules can be used as a knock-out blow.



If you're allowing a character to make a melee attack with a Talisman, but are not considering the damage part of the attack (your final paragraph hints at some uncertainty), then the extra damage is not a melee attack and cannot be a knock-out blow.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    @Yakk I don't see the need. The querent has already declared (in the question) that using the amulet as an attack deals the damage. That last paragraph reiterates that declaration. The paragraph before indicates it may be wrong, but I'm not going to argue strongly against something the querent has already indicated as fact. There is a linked question that discusses whether it is, or is not, which makes that part of the debate out-of-scope on this question.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    10 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    A melee attack with the talisman would deal damage appropriate to the corresponding type of improvised weapon. That is the damage which could be made non-lethal. Like the poison on a poisoned weapon, the talisman's 'on touch' effect is not the melee attack itself. The reasoning in this answer is not bad, it is simply incomplete. Yakk's answer below fills in the missing pieces.
    $endgroup$
    – Theo Brinkman
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @TheoBrinkman The querent's parameters indicate he has already decided otherwise. Once again, I'm not going to refute or argue the querent's declarations. There is a separate question that covers that debate.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    9 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    no the querent's parameters indicate he has already decided that the object can be an improvised weapon, not that the damage dealt by touching it is 'melee weapon damage'. If that had been decided that already, the question would have been completely unnecessary. In fact, the final paragraph of the question indicates the question has not made that assumption yet. "My hesitation relies on the fact that the radiant/necrotic damage from the Talisman does not directly come from the melee attack, but rather from the item. I think it might still work, but I am unsure."
    $endgroup$
    – Theo Brinkman
    9 hours ago



















7












$begingroup$

No



If touching someone with the amulet causes damage, using it as an improvised attack will also cause the damage.



However, the damage from the touch is not melee attack damage. If you crit, the damage dice aren't doubled. It is damage that happens as a consequence of the hit, not melee attack damage.



You can no more make a decision to knock a target out by touching them with the amulet than you can make a decision to knock someone out from the fall damage your melee+push 10 attack did as they fell off a cliff.



Only melee attack damage has the property that you can knock someone out with it.



Another similar case where this doesn't happen is poison damage -- the poison damage is caused by taking the melee hit, but it isn't part of the melee attack damage. Its damage dice aren't doubled on a crit.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    +1 For mentioning crits and poison. There is a difference between making a melee attack with an object which does damage, and the object having an inherent property that also does damage. Can you hit someone with the Talisman? Sure, it acts like a tiny flail and does 1d4 damage. That can be as non-lethal as you want, but the big radiant burst that comes after has nothing to do with it.
    $endgroup$
    – D.Spetz
    9 hours ago











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3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes








3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









10












$begingroup$

No



Your quote specifically states a "melee attack," but the damage from the Talisman occurs after (when they touch it), so it isn't an attack.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    You're ignoring the parameters supplied before the quote. In the context of this question, the Talisman itself is being used as a weapon and the damage does apply to the attack.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @T.J.L. what I'm trying into the I say here is that the damage comes after the attack.
    $endgroup$
    – NoOneIsHere
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    And the querent is saying they have already decided that is not the case. They have decided it is part of the attack. This answer might be viable for the linked question, but here it is ignoring the explicitly provided context.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    10 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    @T.J.L. I see. I still think the answer is fine.
    $endgroup$
    – NoOneIsHere
    9 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    @T.J.L. OP said "My hesitation relies on the fact that the radiant/necrotic damage from the Talisman does not directly come from the melee attack, but rather from the item." Which to me makes it sound like it is not a foregone conclusion. This answer clearly addresses that concern.
    $endgroup$
    – D.Spetz
    9 hours ago
















10












$begingroup$

No



Your quote specifically states a "melee attack," but the damage from the Talisman occurs after (when they touch it), so it isn't an attack.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    You're ignoring the parameters supplied before the quote. In the context of this question, the Talisman itself is being used as a weapon and the damage does apply to the attack.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @T.J.L. what I'm trying into the I say here is that the damage comes after the attack.
    $endgroup$
    – NoOneIsHere
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    And the querent is saying they have already decided that is not the case. They have decided it is part of the attack. This answer might be viable for the linked question, but here it is ignoring the explicitly provided context.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    10 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    @T.J.L. I see. I still think the answer is fine.
    $endgroup$
    – NoOneIsHere
    9 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    @T.J.L. OP said "My hesitation relies on the fact that the radiant/necrotic damage from the Talisman does not directly come from the melee attack, but rather from the item." Which to me makes it sound like it is not a foregone conclusion. This answer clearly addresses that concern.
    $endgroup$
    – D.Spetz
    9 hours ago














10












10








10





$begingroup$

No



Your quote specifically states a "melee attack," but the damage from the Talisman occurs after (when they touch it), so it isn't an attack.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$



No



Your quote specifically states a "melee attack," but the damage from the Talisman occurs after (when they touch it), so it isn't an attack.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 15 hours ago









NoOneIsHereNoOneIsHere

622418




622418












  • $begingroup$
    You're ignoring the parameters supplied before the quote. In the context of this question, the Talisman itself is being used as a weapon and the damage does apply to the attack.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @T.J.L. what I'm trying into the I say here is that the damage comes after the attack.
    $endgroup$
    – NoOneIsHere
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    And the querent is saying they have already decided that is not the case. They have decided it is part of the attack. This answer might be viable for the linked question, but here it is ignoring the explicitly provided context.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    10 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    @T.J.L. I see. I still think the answer is fine.
    $endgroup$
    – NoOneIsHere
    9 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    @T.J.L. OP said "My hesitation relies on the fact that the radiant/necrotic damage from the Talisman does not directly come from the melee attack, but rather from the item." Which to me makes it sound like it is not a foregone conclusion. This answer clearly addresses that concern.
    $endgroup$
    – D.Spetz
    9 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    You're ignoring the parameters supplied before the quote. In the context of this question, the Talisman itself is being used as a weapon and the damage does apply to the attack.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @T.J.L. what I'm trying into the I say here is that the damage comes after the attack.
    $endgroup$
    – NoOneIsHere
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    And the querent is saying they have already decided that is not the case. They have decided it is part of the attack. This answer might be viable for the linked question, but here it is ignoring the explicitly provided context.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    10 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    @T.J.L. I see. I still think the answer is fine.
    $endgroup$
    – NoOneIsHere
    9 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    @T.J.L. OP said "My hesitation relies on the fact that the radiant/necrotic damage from the Talisman does not directly come from the melee attack, but rather from the item." Which to me makes it sound like it is not a foregone conclusion. This answer clearly addresses that concern.
    $endgroup$
    – D.Spetz
    9 hours ago
















$begingroup$
You're ignoring the parameters supplied before the quote. In the context of this question, the Talisman itself is being used as a weapon and the damage does apply to the attack.
$endgroup$
– T.J.L.
10 hours ago




$begingroup$
You're ignoring the parameters supplied before the quote. In the context of this question, the Talisman itself is being used as a weapon and the damage does apply to the attack.
$endgroup$
– T.J.L.
10 hours ago












$begingroup$
@T.J.L. what I'm trying into the I say here is that the damage comes after the attack.
$endgroup$
– NoOneIsHere
10 hours ago




$begingroup$
@T.J.L. what I'm trying into the I say here is that the damage comes after the attack.
$endgroup$
– NoOneIsHere
10 hours ago












$begingroup$
And the querent is saying they have already decided that is not the case. They have decided it is part of the attack. This answer might be viable for the linked question, but here it is ignoring the explicitly provided context.
$endgroup$
– T.J.L.
10 hours ago






$begingroup$
And the querent is saying they have already decided that is not the case. They have decided it is part of the attack. This answer might be viable for the linked question, but here it is ignoring the explicitly provided context.
$endgroup$
– T.J.L.
10 hours ago














$begingroup$
@T.J.L. I see. I still think the answer is fine.
$endgroup$
– NoOneIsHere
9 hours ago






$begingroup$
@T.J.L. I see. I still think the answer is fine.
$endgroup$
– NoOneIsHere
9 hours ago














$begingroup$
@T.J.L. OP said "My hesitation relies on the fact that the radiant/necrotic damage from the Talisman does not directly come from the melee attack, but rather from the item." Which to me makes it sound like it is not a foregone conclusion. This answer clearly addresses that concern.
$endgroup$
– D.Spetz
9 hours ago




$begingroup$
@T.J.L. OP said "My hesitation relies on the fact that the radiant/necrotic damage from the Talisman does not directly come from the melee attack, but rather from the item." Which to me makes it sound like it is not a foregone conclusion. This answer clearly addresses that concern.
$endgroup$
– D.Spetz
9 hours ago













8












$begingroup$

Any melee attack can be a knock-out blow.



You've quoted the complete rules on the matter. The type of damage is not relevant, only the source of the attack - melee or ranged. Both a melee weapon attack and a melee spell attack are melee attacks.



Another user asked What is "Force" Damage? In that case, they were asking how to describe wounds, but I made a key point in my answer:




Until a source of damage interacts with something with resistance, immunity, vulnerability, or some other ability that cites an interaction with a type of damage, the damage type is functionally meaningless.




In D&D5E, you can just as easily fire-damage somebody into unconsciousness (via Flame Blade, a melee spell attack) or shock them into submission (via Shocking Grasp), as you can beat them within an inch of their life. You cannot Lightning Bolt or Fire Bolt somebody without the risk of killing them, because neither of those two spells involves a melee attack (one is a save, the other is a ranged spell attack).



The Talisman may not be an attack at all.



While it isn't written that way, I suspect the intention of that passage is when an unworthy character touches the talisman willingly. If you're allowing that feature to be used offensively, by pressing it against the unworthy, you're dipping into homebrew territory anyway.



If you're allowing a character to make a melee attack with a Talisman and you are considering the damage part of the attack (as your initial paragraph indicates), then yes, it would work as you describe. A melee attack is a melee attack, and by the rules can be used as a knock-out blow.



If you're allowing a character to make a melee attack with a Talisman, but are not considering the damage part of the attack (your final paragraph hints at some uncertainty), then the extra damage is not a melee attack and cannot be a knock-out blow.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    @Yakk I don't see the need. The querent has already declared (in the question) that using the amulet as an attack deals the damage. That last paragraph reiterates that declaration. The paragraph before indicates it may be wrong, but I'm not going to argue strongly against something the querent has already indicated as fact. There is a linked question that discusses whether it is, or is not, which makes that part of the debate out-of-scope on this question.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    10 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    A melee attack with the talisman would deal damage appropriate to the corresponding type of improvised weapon. That is the damage which could be made non-lethal. Like the poison on a poisoned weapon, the talisman's 'on touch' effect is not the melee attack itself. The reasoning in this answer is not bad, it is simply incomplete. Yakk's answer below fills in the missing pieces.
    $endgroup$
    – Theo Brinkman
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @TheoBrinkman The querent's parameters indicate he has already decided otherwise. Once again, I'm not going to refute or argue the querent's declarations. There is a separate question that covers that debate.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    9 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    no the querent's parameters indicate he has already decided that the object can be an improvised weapon, not that the damage dealt by touching it is 'melee weapon damage'. If that had been decided that already, the question would have been completely unnecessary. In fact, the final paragraph of the question indicates the question has not made that assumption yet. "My hesitation relies on the fact that the radiant/necrotic damage from the Talisman does not directly come from the melee attack, but rather from the item. I think it might still work, but I am unsure."
    $endgroup$
    – Theo Brinkman
    9 hours ago
















8












$begingroup$

Any melee attack can be a knock-out blow.



You've quoted the complete rules on the matter. The type of damage is not relevant, only the source of the attack - melee or ranged. Both a melee weapon attack and a melee spell attack are melee attacks.



Another user asked What is "Force" Damage? In that case, they were asking how to describe wounds, but I made a key point in my answer:




Until a source of damage interacts with something with resistance, immunity, vulnerability, or some other ability that cites an interaction with a type of damage, the damage type is functionally meaningless.




In D&D5E, you can just as easily fire-damage somebody into unconsciousness (via Flame Blade, a melee spell attack) or shock them into submission (via Shocking Grasp), as you can beat them within an inch of their life. You cannot Lightning Bolt or Fire Bolt somebody without the risk of killing them, because neither of those two spells involves a melee attack (one is a save, the other is a ranged spell attack).



The Talisman may not be an attack at all.



While it isn't written that way, I suspect the intention of that passage is when an unworthy character touches the talisman willingly. If you're allowing that feature to be used offensively, by pressing it against the unworthy, you're dipping into homebrew territory anyway.



If you're allowing a character to make a melee attack with a Talisman and you are considering the damage part of the attack (as your initial paragraph indicates), then yes, it would work as you describe. A melee attack is a melee attack, and by the rules can be used as a knock-out blow.



If you're allowing a character to make a melee attack with a Talisman, but are not considering the damage part of the attack (your final paragraph hints at some uncertainty), then the extra damage is not a melee attack and cannot be a knock-out blow.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    @Yakk I don't see the need. The querent has already declared (in the question) that using the amulet as an attack deals the damage. That last paragraph reiterates that declaration. The paragraph before indicates it may be wrong, but I'm not going to argue strongly against something the querent has already indicated as fact. There is a linked question that discusses whether it is, or is not, which makes that part of the debate out-of-scope on this question.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    10 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    A melee attack with the talisman would deal damage appropriate to the corresponding type of improvised weapon. That is the damage which could be made non-lethal. Like the poison on a poisoned weapon, the talisman's 'on touch' effect is not the melee attack itself. The reasoning in this answer is not bad, it is simply incomplete. Yakk's answer below fills in the missing pieces.
    $endgroup$
    – Theo Brinkman
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @TheoBrinkman The querent's parameters indicate he has already decided otherwise. Once again, I'm not going to refute or argue the querent's declarations. There is a separate question that covers that debate.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    9 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    no the querent's parameters indicate he has already decided that the object can be an improvised weapon, not that the damage dealt by touching it is 'melee weapon damage'. If that had been decided that already, the question would have been completely unnecessary. In fact, the final paragraph of the question indicates the question has not made that assumption yet. "My hesitation relies on the fact that the radiant/necrotic damage from the Talisman does not directly come from the melee attack, but rather from the item. I think it might still work, but I am unsure."
    $endgroup$
    – Theo Brinkman
    9 hours ago














8












8








8





$begingroup$

Any melee attack can be a knock-out blow.



You've quoted the complete rules on the matter. The type of damage is not relevant, only the source of the attack - melee or ranged. Both a melee weapon attack and a melee spell attack are melee attacks.



Another user asked What is "Force" Damage? In that case, they were asking how to describe wounds, but I made a key point in my answer:




Until a source of damage interacts with something with resistance, immunity, vulnerability, or some other ability that cites an interaction with a type of damage, the damage type is functionally meaningless.




In D&D5E, you can just as easily fire-damage somebody into unconsciousness (via Flame Blade, a melee spell attack) or shock them into submission (via Shocking Grasp), as you can beat them within an inch of their life. You cannot Lightning Bolt or Fire Bolt somebody without the risk of killing them, because neither of those two spells involves a melee attack (one is a save, the other is a ranged spell attack).



The Talisman may not be an attack at all.



While it isn't written that way, I suspect the intention of that passage is when an unworthy character touches the talisman willingly. If you're allowing that feature to be used offensively, by pressing it against the unworthy, you're dipping into homebrew territory anyway.



If you're allowing a character to make a melee attack with a Talisman and you are considering the damage part of the attack (as your initial paragraph indicates), then yes, it would work as you describe. A melee attack is a melee attack, and by the rules can be used as a knock-out blow.



If you're allowing a character to make a melee attack with a Talisman, but are not considering the damage part of the attack (your final paragraph hints at some uncertainty), then the extra damage is not a melee attack and cannot be a knock-out blow.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



Any melee attack can be a knock-out blow.



You've quoted the complete rules on the matter. The type of damage is not relevant, only the source of the attack - melee or ranged. Both a melee weapon attack and a melee spell attack are melee attacks.



Another user asked What is "Force" Damage? In that case, they were asking how to describe wounds, but I made a key point in my answer:




Until a source of damage interacts with something with resistance, immunity, vulnerability, or some other ability that cites an interaction with a type of damage, the damage type is functionally meaningless.




In D&D5E, you can just as easily fire-damage somebody into unconsciousness (via Flame Blade, a melee spell attack) or shock them into submission (via Shocking Grasp), as you can beat them within an inch of their life. You cannot Lightning Bolt or Fire Bolt somebody without the risk of killing them, because neither of those two spells involves a melee attack (one is a save, the other is a ranged spell attack).



The Talisman may not be an attack at all.



While it isn't written that way, I suspect the intention of that passage is when an unworthy character touches the talisman willingly. If you're allowing that feature to be used offensively, by pressing it against the unworthy, you're dipping into homebrew territory anyway.



If you're allowing a character to make a melee attack with a Talisman and you are considering the damage part of the attack (as your initial paragraph indicates), then yes, it would work as you describe. A melee attack is a melee attack, and by the rules can be used as a knock-out blow.



If you're allowing a character to make a melee attack with a Talisman, but are not considering the damage part of the attack (your final paragraph hints at some uncertainty), then the extra damage is not a melee attack and cannot be a knock-out blow.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 8 hours ago

























answered 15 hours ago









T.J.L.T.J.L.

33.1k5115173




33.1k5115173












  • $begingroup$
    @Yakk I don't see the need. The querent has already declared (in the question) that using the amulet as an attack deals the damage. That last paragraph reiterates that declaration. The paragraph before indicates it may be wrong, but I'm not going to argue strongly against something the querent has already indicated as fact. There is a linked question that discusses whether it is, or is not, which makes that part of the debate out-of-scope on this question.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    10 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    A melee attack with the talisman would deal damage appropriate to the corresponding type of improvised weapon. That is the damage which could be made non-lethal. Like the poison on a poisoned weapon, the talisman's 'on touch' effect is not the melee attack itself. The reasoning in this answer is not bad, it is simply incomplete. Yakk's answer below fills in the missing pieces.
    $endgroup$
    – Theo Brinkman
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @TheoBrinkman The querent's parameters indicate he has already decided otherwise. Once again, I'm not going to refute or argue the querent's declarations. There is a separate question that covers that debate.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    9 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    no the querent's parameters indicate he has already decided that the object can be an improvised weapon, not that the damage dealt by touching it is 'melee weapon damage'. If that had been decided that already, the question would have been completely unnecessary. In fact, the final paragraph of the question indicates the question has not made that assumption yet. "My hesitation relies on the fact that the radiant/necrotic damage from the Talisman does not directly come from the melee attack, but rather from the item. I think it might still work, but I am unsure."
    $endgroup$
    – Theo Brinkman
    9 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    @Yakk I don't see the need. The querent has already declared (in the question) that using the amulet as an attack deals the damage. That last paragraph reiterates that declaration. The paragraph before indicates it may be wrong, but I'm not going to argue strongly against something the querent has already indicated as fact. There is a linked question that discusses whether it is, or is not, which makes that part of the debate out-of-scope on this question.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    10 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    A melee attack with the talisman would deal damage appropriate to the corresponding type of improvised weapon. That is the damage which could be made non-lethal. Like the poison on a poisoned weapon, the talisman's 'on touch' effect is not the melee attack itself. The reasoning in this answer is not bad, it is simply incomplete. Yakk's answer below fills in the missing pieces.
    $endgroup$
    – Theo Brinkman
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @TheoBrinkman The querent's parameters indicate he has already decided otherwise. Once again, I'm not going to refute or argue the querent's declarations. There is a separate question that covers that debate.
    $endgroup$
    – T.J.L.
    9 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    no the querent's parameters indicate he has already decided that the object can be an improvised weapon, not that the damage dealt by touching it is 'melee weapon damage'. If that had been decided that already, the question would have been completely unnecessary. In fact, the final paragraph of the question indicates the question has not made that assumption yet. "My hesitation relies on the fact that the radiant/necrotic damage from the Talisman does not directly come from the melee attack, but rather from the item. I think it might still work, but I am unsure."
    $endgroup$
    – Theo Brinkman
    9 hours ago
















$begingroup$
@Yakk I don't see the need. The querent has already declared (in the question) that using the amulet as an attack deals the damage. That last paragraph reiterates that declaration. The paragraph before indicates it may be wrong, but I'm not going to argue strongly against something the querent has already indicated as fact. There is a linked question that discusses whether it is, or is not, which makes that part of the debate out-of-scope on this question.
$endgroup$
– T.J.L.
10 hours ago






$begingroup$
@Yakk I don't see the need. The querent has already declared (in the question) that using the amulet as an attack deals the damage. That last paragraph reiterates that declaration. The paragraph before indicates it may be wrong, but I'm not going to argue strongly against something the querent has already indicated as fact. There is a linked question that discusses whether it is, or is not, which makes that part of the debate out-of-scope on this question.
$endgroup$
– T.J.L.
10 hours ago














$begingroup$
A melee attack with the talisman would deal damage appropriate to the corresponding type of improvised weapon. That is the damage which could be made non-lethal. Like the poison on a poisoned weapon, the talisman's 'on touch' effect is not the melee attack itself. The reasoning in this answer is not bad, it is simply incomplete. Yakk's answer below fills in the missing pieces.
$endgroup$
– Theo Brinkman
9 hours ago




$begingroup$
A melee attack with the talisman would deal damage appropriate to the corresponding type of improvised weapon. That is the damage which could be made non-lethal. Like the poison on a poisoned weapon, the talisman's 'on touch' effect is not the melee attack itself. The reasoning in this answer is not bad, it is simply incomplete. Yakk's answer below fills in the missing pieces.
$endgroup$
– Theo Brinkman
9 hours ago












$begingroup$
@TheoBrinkman The querent's parameters indicate he has already decided otherwise. Once again, I'm not going to refute or argue the querent's declarations. There is a separate question that covers that debate.
$endgroup$
– T.J.L.
9 hours ago




$begingroup$
@TheoBrinkman The querent's parameters indicate he has already decided otherwise. Once again, I'm not going to refute or argue the querent's declarations. There is a separate question that covers that debate.
$endgroup$
– T.J.L.
9 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
no the querent's parameters indicate he has already decided that the object can be an improvised weapon, not that the damage dealt by touching it is 'melee weapon damage'. If that had been decided that already, the question would have been completely unnecessary. In fact, the final paragraph of the question indicates the question has not made that assumption yet. "My hesitation relies on the fact that the radiant/necrotic damage from the Talisman does not directly come from the melee attack, but rather from the item. I think it might still work, but I am unsure."
$endgroup$
– Theo Brinkman
9 hours ago




$begingroup$
no the querent's parameters indicate he has already decided that the object can be an improvised weapon, not that the damage dealt by touching it is 'melee weapon damage'. If that had been decided that already, the question would have been completely unnecessary. In fact, the final paragraph of the question indicates the question has not made that assumption yet. "My hesitation relies on the fact that the radiant/necrotic damage from the Talisman does not directly come from the melee attack, but rather from the item. I think it might still work, but I am unsure."
$endgroup$
– Theo Brinkman
9 hours ago











7












$begingroup$

No



If touching someone with the amulet causes damage, using it as an improvised attack will also cause the damage.



However, the damage from the touch is not melee attack damage. If you crit, the damage dice aren't doubled. It is damage that happens as a consequence of the hit, not melee attack damage.



You can no more make a decision to knock a target out by touching them with the amulet than you can make a decision to knock someone out from the fall damage your melee+push 10 attack did as they fell off a cliff.



Only melee attack damage has the property that you can knock someone out with it.



Another similar case where this doesn't happen is poison damage -- the poison damage is caused by taking the melee hit, but it isn't part of the melee attack damage. Its damage dice aren't doubled on a crit.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    +1 For mentioning crits and poison. There is a difference between making a melee attack with an object which does damage, and the object having an inherent property that also does damage. Can you hit someone with the Talisman? Sure, it acts like a tiny flail and does 1d4 damage. That can be as non-lethal as you want, but the big radiant burst that comes after has nothing to do with it.
    $endgroup$
    – D.Spetz
    9 hours ago
















7












$begingroup$

No



If touching someone with the amulet causes damage, using it as an improvised attack will also cause the damage.



However, the damage from the touch is not melee attack damage. If you crit, the damage dice aren't doubled. It is damage that happens as a consequence of the hit, not melee attack damage.



You can no more make a decision to knock a target out by touching them with the amulet than you can make a decision to knock someone out from the fall damage your melee+push 10 attack did as they fell off a cliff.



Only melee attack damage has the property that you can knock someone out with it.



Another similar case where this doesn't happen is poison damage -- the poison damage is caused by taking the melee hit, but it isn't part of the melee attack damage. Its damage dice aren't doubled on a crit.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    +1 For mentioning crits and poison. There is a difference between making a melee attack with an object which does damage, and the object having an inherent property that also does damage. Can you hit someone with the Talisman? Sure, it acts like a tiny flail and does 1d4 damage. That can be as non-lethal as you want, but the big radiant burst that comes after has nothing to do with it.
    $endgroup$
    – D.Spetz
    9 hours ago














7












7








7





$begingroup$

No



If touching someone with the amulet causes damage, using it as an improvised attack will also cause the damage.



However, the damage from the touch is not melee attack damage. If you crit, the damage dice aren't doubled. It is damage that happens as a consequence of the hit, not melee attack damage.



You can no more make a decision to knock a target out by touching them with the amulet than you can make a decision to knock someone out from the fall damage your melee+push 10 attack did as they fell off a cliff.



Only melee attack damage has the property that you can knock someone out with it.



Another similar case where this doesn't happen is poison damage -- the poison damage is caused by taking the melee hit, but it isn't part of the melee attack damage. Its damage dice aren't doubled on a crit.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$



No



If touching someone with the amulet causes damage, using it as an improvised attack will also cause the damage.



However, the damage from the touch is not melee attack damage. If you crit, the damage dice aren't doubled. It is damage that happens as a consequence of the hit, not melee attack damage.



You can no more make a decision to knock a target out by touching them with the amulet than you can make a decision to knock someone out from the fall damage your melee+push 10 attack did as they fell off a cliff.



Only melee attack damage has the property that you can knock someone out with it.



Another similar case where this doesn't happen is poison damage -- the poison damage is caused by taking the melee hit, but it isn't part of the melee attack damage. Its damage dice aren't doubled on a crit.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 9 hours ago









YakkYakk

7,3311041




7,3311041








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    +1 For mentioning crits and poison. There is a difference between making a melee attack with an object which does damage, and the object having an inherent property that also does damage. Can you hit someone with the Talisman? Sure, it acts like a tiny flail and does 1d4 damage. That can be as non-lethal as you want, but the big radiant burst that comes after has nothing to do with it.
    $endgroup$
    – D.Spetz
    9 hours ago














  • 2




    $begingroup$
    +1 For mentioning crits and poison. There is a difference between making a melee attack with an object which does damage, and the object having an inherent property that also does damage. Can you hit someone with the Talisman? Sure, it acts like a tiny flail and does 1d4 damage. That can be as non-lethal as you want, but the big radiant burst that comes after has nothing to do with it.
    $endgroup$
    – D.Spetz
    9 hours ago








2




2




$begingroup$
+1 For mentioning crits and poison. There is a difference between making a melee attack with an object which does damage, and the object having an inherent property that also does damage. Can you hit someone with the Talisman? Sure, it acts like a tiny flail and does 1d4 damage. That can be as non-lethal as you want, but the big radiant burst that comes after has nothing to do with it.
$endgroup$
– D.Spetz
9 hours ago




$begingroup$
+1 For mentioning crits and poison. There is a difference between making a melee attack with an object which does damage, and the object having an inherent property that also does damage. Can you hit someone with the Talisman? Sure, it acts like a tiny flail and does 1d4 damage. That can be as non-lethal as you want, but the big radiant burst that comes after has nothing to do with it.
$endgroup$
– D.Spetz
9 hours ago


















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