Path-continuity and the Axiom of Choice












6












$begingroup$


We tell the following to our Calc III students (usually for $mathbf{R}^2$, and never so formally):



Let $A$ be an open subset of $mathbf{R}^n$, $ain A$, $f$ a real-valued function on $A$ and $Gamma = {gamma in A^{[0,1]} : gamma(0) = a$ and $gamma$ is continuous at $0}$. If 𝑓∘𝛾 is continuous at $0$ for all $gamma in Gamma$, then $f$ is continuous at $a$.



We may generalize this: $A$ can be a first countable locally path-connected space, and the codomain may be any topological space. See Continuity on paths implies continuity on space? .



Here is my question:



Does one need the Axiom of Choice (or at least countable choice) to prove this result?



For example, the essentials of my proof of the (restricted) result is: If $f$ is not continuous at $a$, then there is a neighborhood $V$ of $f(a)$ such that $f^{-1}(V)$ is not a neighborhood of $a$. For each positive integer $n$, choose a point in $ B(a,1/n)backslash f^{-1}(V)$ and connect the points with a piecewise linear path. Thus, we are choosing countably many points.



The proof at the link above also uses countable choice.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    BTW, I got 𝑓∘𝛾 by copying and pasting. What is the LaTeX for the centered circle?
    $endgroup$
    – Stephen Herschkorn
    Mar 29 at 4:14






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    $circ$ is circ
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Kruckman
    Mar 29 at 4:25










  • $begingroup$
    I have realized that I wrote my answer assuming that elements of $Gamma$ are required to be continuous on all of $[0,1]$, not just at $0$. If you only require them to be continuous at $0$ then the result holds in every first-countable space (no local path-connectedness needed), since you can just take $gamma$ to be a piecewise function taking values in an arbitrary sequence approaching $a$.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 29 at 5:11










  • $begingroup$
    In any case, with the definition you wrote (which I think is considerably less interesting than the version that requires $gamma$ to be continuous everywhere), some choice is still needed. But I think it is strictly less than countable choice; in particular, it suffices to know that given a sequence $(X_n)$ of nonempty sets, there exists a subsequence and a simultaneous choice of a function from some nonempty subset of $mathbb{R}$ to each term in the subsequence. This seems strictly weaker than countable choice.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 29 at 5:31










  • $begingroup$
    Note also that the question you linked asks a global question, about continuity on the entire space $A$ instead of continuity at a single point. The example space in my answer still works for that global statement (since $f$ is continuous at every point other than $infty$).
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 29 at 5:46
















6












$begingroup$


We tell the following to our Calc III students (usually for $mathbf{R}^2$, and never so formally):



Let $A$ be an open subset of $mathbf{R}^n$, $ain A$, $f$ a real-valued function on $A$ and $Gamma = {gamma in A^{[0,1]} : gamma(0) = a$ and $gamma$ is continuous at $0}$. If 𝑓∘𝛾 is continuous at $0$ for all $gamma in Gamma$, then $f$ is continuous at $a$.



We may generalize this: $A$ can be a first countable locally path-connected space, and the codomain may be any topological space. See Continuity on paths implies continuity on space? .



Here is my question:



Does one need the Axiom of Choice (or at least countable choice) to prove this result?



For example, the essentials of my proof of the (restricted) result is: If $f$ is not continuous at $a$, then there is a neighborhood $V$ of $f(a)$ such that $f^{-1}(V)$ is not a neighborhood of $a$. For each positive integer $n$, choose a point in $ B(a,1/n)backslash f^{-1}(V)$ and connect the points with a piecewise linear path. Thus, we are choosing countably many points.



The proof at the link above also uses countable choice.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    BTW, I got 𝑓∘𝛾 by copying and pasting. What is the LaTeX for the centered circle?
    $endgroup$
    – Stephen Herschkorn
    Mar 29 at 4:14






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    $circ$ is circ
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Kruckman
    Mar 29 at 4:25










  • $begingroup$
    I have realized that I wrote my answer assuming that elements of $Gamma$ are required to be continuous on all of $[0,1]$, not just at $0$. If you only require them to be continuous at $0$ then the result holds in every first-countable space (no local path-connectedness needed), since you can just take $gamma$ to be a piecewise function taking values in an arbitrary sequence approaching $a$.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 29 at 5:11










  • $begingroup$
    In any case, with the definition you wrote (which I think is considerably less interesting than the version that requires $gamma$ to be continuous everywhere), some choice is still needed. But I think it is strictly less than countable choice; in particular, it suffices to know that given a sequence $(X_n)$ of nonempty sets, there exists a subsequence and a simultaneous choice of a function from some nonempty subset of $mathbb{R}$ to each term in the subsequence. This seems strictly weaker than countable choice.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 29 at 5:31










  • $begingroup$
    Note also that the question you linked asks a global question, about continuity on the entire space $A$ instead of continuity at a single point. The example space in my answer still works for that global statement (since $f$ is continuous at every point other than $infty$).
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 29 at 5:46














6












6








6





$begingroup$


We tell the following to our Calc III students (usually for $mathbf{R}^2$, and never so formally):



Let $A$ be an open subset of $mathbf{R}^n$, $ain A$, $f$ a real-valued function on $A$ and $Gamma = {gamma in A^{[0,1]} : gamma(0) = a$ and $gamma$ is continuous at $0}$. If 𝑓∘𝛾 is continuous at $0$ for all $gamma in Gamma$, then $f$ is continuous at $a$.



We may generalize this: $A$ can be a first countable locally path-connected space, and the codomain may be any topological space. See Continuity on paths implies continuity on space? .



Here is my question:



Does one need the Axiom of Choice (or at least countable choice) to prove this result?



For example, the essentials of my proof of the (restricted) result is: If $f$ is not continuous at $a$, then there is a neighborhood $V$ of $f(a)$ such that $f^{-1}(V)$ is not a neighborhood of $a$. For each positive integer $n$, choose a point in $ B(a,1/n)backslash f^{-1}(V)$ and connect the points with a piecewise linear path. Thus, we are choosing countably many points.



The proof at the link above also uses countable choice.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




We tell the following to our Calc III students (usually for $mathbf{R}^2$, and never so formally):



Let $A$ be an open subset of $mathbf{R}^n$, $ain A$, $f$ a real-valued function on $A$ and $Gamma = {gamma in A^{[0,1]} : gamma(0) = a$ and $gamma$ is continuous at $0}$. If 𝑓∘𝛾 is continuous at $0$ for all $gamma in Gamma$, then $f$ is continuous at $a$.



We may generalize this: $A$ can be a first countable locally path-connected space, and the codomain may be any topological space. See Continuity on paths implies continuity on space? .



Here is my question:



Does one need the Axiom of Choice (or at least countable choice) to prove this result?



For example, the essentials of my proof of the (restricted) result is: If $f$ is not continuous at $a$, then there is a neighborhood $V$ of $f(a)$ such that $f^{-1}(V)$ is not a neighborhood of $a$. For each positive integer $n$, choose a point in $ B(a,1/n)backslash f^{-1}(V)$ and connect the points with a piecewise linear path. Thus, we are choosing countably many points.



The proof at the link above also uses countable choice.







general-topology multivariable-calculus continuity axiom-of-choice path-connected






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Mar 29 at 6:12







Stephen Herschkorn

















asked Mar 29 at 3:04









Stephen HerschkornStephen Herschkorn

746312




746312












  • $begingroup$
    BTW, I got 𝑓∘𝛾 by copying and pasting. What is the LaTeX for the centered circle?
    $endgroup$
    – Stephen Herschkorn
    Mar 29 at 4:14






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    $circ$ is circ
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Kruckman
    Mar 29 at 4:25










  • $begingroup$
    I have realized that I wrote my answer assuming that elements of $Gamma$ are required to be continuous on all of $[0,1]$, not just at $0$. If you only require them to be continuous at $0$ then the result holds in every first-countable space (no local path-connectedness needed), since you can just take $gamma$ to be a piecewise function taking values in an arbitrary sequence approaching $a$.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 29 at 5:11










  • $begingroup$
    In any case, with the definition you wrote (which I think is considerably less interesting than the version that requires $gamma$ to be continuous everywhere), some choice is still needed. But I think it is strictly less than countable choice; in particular, it suffices to know that given a sequence $(X_n)$ of nonempty sets, there exists a subsequence and a simultaneous choice of a function from some nonempty subset of $mathbb{R}$ to each term in the subsequence. This seems strictly weaker than countable choice.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 29 at 5:31










  • $begingroup$
    Note also that the question you linked asks a global question, about continuity on the entire space $A$ instead of continuity at a single point. The example space in my answer still works for that global statement (since $f$ is continuous at every point other than $infty$).
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 29 at 5:46


















  • $begingroup$
    BTW, I got 𝑓∘𝛾 by copying and pasting. What is the LaTeX for the centered circle?
    $endgroup$
    – Stephen Herschkorn
    Mar 29 at 4:14






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    $circ$ is circ
    $endgroup$
    – Alex Kruckman
    Mar 29 at 4:25










  • $begingroup$
    I have realized that I wrote my answer assuming that elements of $Gamma$ are required to be continuous on all of $[0,1]$, not just at $0$. If you only require them to be continuous at $0$ then the result holds in every first-countable space (no local path-connectedness needed), since you can just take $gamma$ to be a piecewise function taking values in an arbitrary sequence approaching $a$.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 29 at 5:11










  • $begingroup$
    In any case, with the definition you wrote (which I think is considerably less interesting than the version that requires $gamma$ to be continuous everywhere), some choice is still needed. But I think it is strictly less than countable choice; in particular, it suffices to know that given a sequence $(X_n)$ of nonempty sets, there exists a subsequence and a simultaneous choice of a function from some nonempty subset of $mathbb{R}$ to each term in the subsequence. This seems strictly weaker than countable choice.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 29 at 5:31










  • $begingroup$
    Note also that the question you linked asks a global question, about continuity on the entire space $A$ instead of continuity at a single point. The example space in my answer still works for that global statement (since $f$ is continuous at every point other than $infty$).
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 29 at 5:46
















$begingroup$
BTW, I got 𝑓∘𝛾 by copying and pasting. What is the LaTeX for the centered circle?
$endgroup$
– Stephen Herschkorn
Mar 29 at 4:14




$begingroup$
BTW, I got 𝑓∘𝛾 by copying and pasting. What is the LaTeX for the centered circle?
$endgroup$
– Stephen Herschkorn
Mar 29 at 4:14




1




1




$begingroup$
$circ$ is circ
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
Mar 29 at 4:25




$begingroup$
$circ$ is circ
$endgroup$
– Alex Kruckman
Mar 29 at 4:25












$begingroup$
I have realized that I wrote my answer assuming that elements of $Gamma$ are required to be continuous on all of $[0,1]$, not just at $0$. If you only require them to be continuous at $0$ then the result holds in every first-countable space (no local path-connectedness needed), since you can just take $gamma$ to be a piecewise function taking values in an arbitrary sequence approaching $a$.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 29 at 5:11




$begingroup$
I have realized that I wrote my answer assuming that elements of $Gamma$ are required to be continuous on all of $[0,1]$, not just at $0$. If you only require them to be continuous at $0$ then the result holds in every first-countable space (no local path-connectedness needed), since you can just take $gamma$ to be a piecewise function taking values in an arbitrary sequence approaching $a$.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 29 at 5:11












$begingroup$
In any case, with the definition you wrote (which I think is considerably less interesting than the version that requires $gamma$ to be continuous everywhere), some choice is still needed. But I think it is strictly less than countable choice; in particular, it suffices to know that given a sequence $(X_n)$ of nonempty sets, there exists a subsequence and a simultaneous choice of a function from some nonempty subset of $mathbb{R}$ to each term in the subsequence. This seems strictly weaker than countable choice.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 29 at 5:31




$begingroup$
In any case, with the definition you wrote (which I think is considerably less interesting than the version that requires $gamma$ to be continuous everywhere), some choice is still needed. But I think it is strictly less than countable choice; in particular, it suffices to know that given a sequence $(X_n)$ of nonempty sets, there exists a subsequence and a simultaneous choice of a function from some nonempty subset of $mathbb{R}$ to each term in the subsequence. This seems strictly weaker than countable choice.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 29 at 5:31












$begingroup$
Note also that the question you linked asks a global question, about continuity on the entire space $A$ instead of continuity at a single point. The example space in my answer still works for that global statement (since $f$ is continuous at every point other than $infty$).
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 29 at 5:46




$begingroup$
Note also that the question you linked asks a global question, about continuity on the entire space $A$ instead of continuity at a single point. The example space in my answer still works for that global statement (since $f$ is continuous at every point other than $infty$).
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 29 at 5:46










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















6












$begingroup$

For open subsets $Asubseteqmathbb{R}^n$, no choice is needed. Indeed, note that if $Bsubsetmathbb{R}^n$ is any closed ball, there is a continuous surjection from an interval to $B$. Concatenating infinitely many such space-filling curves onto smaller and smaller balls around a point $a$, we get a single continuous path $gamma:[0,1]to A$ such that a map $f$ on $A$ is continuous at $a$ iff $fcircgamma$ is continuous at $0$.





Let us now discuss more general spaces; the upshot is that the axiom of choice is required to prove these results in general. I will say a space $A$ is pseudopath-generated if it satisfies your condition: that is, a map $f:Ato Y$ is continuous at a point $ain A$ iff for any map $gamma:[0,1]to A$ such that $gamma(0)=a$ and $gamma$ is continuous at $0$, $fcircgamma$ is continuous at $0$. I will say a space $A$ is path-generated if the same condition holds but with $gamma$ required to be continuous on all of $[0,1]$.



Note that the result you linked regarding first countable locally path-connected spaces actually says that they are path-generated, not just pseudopath-generated. Indeed, pseudopath-generation doesn't really have anything to do with paths, since continuity of $gamma$ at a single point is a very weak condition. A similar argument shows that in fact every first countable space is pseudopath-generated.



The statement that every first countable locally path-connected space is path-generated is equivalent to countable choice. Let me first observe that countable choice is equivalent to the following (seemingly weaker) statement.




$(*)$ Given a countable family of $(X_n)_{ninmathbb{N}}$ of nonempty sets, there exists an infinite subset $Ssubseteqmathbb{N}$ and a choice function for $(X_n)_{nin S}$.




To prove countable choice from $(*)$, let $(Y_n)_{ninmathbb{N}}$ be a countable family of nonempty sets and let $X_n$ be the set of choice functions for the initial segment $(Y_m)_{m<n}$. Then $(*)$ gives a choice function $f$ on an subsequence of $(X_n)$, which then gives a choice function $g$ for all of $(Y_n)$ (let $g(m)=f(n)(m)$ where $n$ is minimal in the domain of $f$ such that $f(n)(m)$ is defined).



Now here is a sketch of a proof that path-generation of first countable locally path-connected spaces implies $(*)$. Let $(X_n)$ be a countable family of nonempty sets. Let $*$ be some point that is not an element of any $X_n$ and let $Y_n=X_ncup{*}$. Let $G$ be the graph with vertex set $mathbb{N}$ and an edge from $n$ to $n+1$ for each element of $Y_n$. Consider this graph as a topological space, not with the weak topology but with the natural metric that makes each edge a path of length 1. Let $A=Gcup{infty}$, where a neighborhood of $infty$ must contain all sufficiently large vertices and edges between them in $G$.



Then $A$ is first countable and locally path-connected (for local path-connectedness at $infty$, we use the fact that we can get a path from any vertex of $G$ to $infty$ by infinitely concatenating the paths from $n$ to $n+1$ indexed by $*$). Now consider the map $f:Ato[0,1]$ defined as follows: $f(x)=0$ if $x$ is a vertex of $G$ or $infty$, or is on one of the paths labelled by $*$. On each path labelled by an element of $X_n$, $f$ starts at $0$, goes up to $1$, and then goes back down to $0$.



This map $f$ is not continuous at $infty$, since every neighborhood of $infty$ contains paths labelled by elements of $X_n$. But to witness this discontinuity with a path in $A$, we would need a path $gamma:[0,1]to A$ which passes through paths corresponding to elements of $X_n$ for arbitrarily large $n$. Such a path would give a choice function on a subsequence of $(X_n)$ (for instance, for each $n$ such that $gamma$ goes into the path corresponding to an element of $X_n$, choose the least rational point in $[0,1]$ with respect to some well-ordering of the rationals which maps into the path corresponding to an element of $X_n$, and use that to choose an element of $X_n$).





Let me now return to pseudopath-generated spaces. Everything in the argument above still works if $A$ is known only to be pseudopath-generated, except for the very last step where we use the path $gamma$ to get a choice function on a subsequence of $(X_n)$. If $gamma$ is not assumed to be continuous on $[0,1]$, then we do not have a canonical way to choose one particular element of $X_n$ which it hits. However, if we assume that $mathbb{R}$ can be well-ordered, then the argument still works and proves countable choice. In particular, since ZF+"there exists a well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$" cannot prove countable choice, this implies that ZF cannot prove every first countable locally path-connected space is pseudopath-generated.



By similar arguments we can prove the following are equivalent over ZF:




  1. All first-countable spaces are pseudopath-generated.

  2. If $(X_n)$ is any family of nonempty sets then there exists a function $f$ on $mathbb{N}timesmathbb{R}$ such that for each $n$, there exists $rinmathbb{R}$ such that $f(n,r)in X_n$.


Statement 2 follows from countable choice and cannot be proved in ZF, but I suspect it is strictly weaker than countable choice.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    For the $mathbf{R}^n$ case, how do we know $f^{-1}(V) backslash B(a,1/n)$ has rational points? I pose this while fearing I am missing something obvious.
    $endgroup$
    – Stephen Herschkorn
    Mar 29 at 5:22










  • $begingroup$
    Oh, oops, I was just wrong. (By the way, the relevant set is $B(a,1/n)setminus f^{-1}(V)$, not the other way around.)
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 29 at 5:26










  • $begingroup$
    Oh, you're right about the relevant set. I think I'll fix it in the original post.
    $endgroup$
    – Stephen Herschkorn
    Mar 29 at 6:11












  • $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey Don't you think that any analytic set existence require AC ?
    $endgroup$
    – Soleil
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    ... aha, I see it now. You can use the "same" curve each time, scaled to the different balls.
    $endgroup$
    – David Hartley
    2 days ago












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$begingroup$

For open subsets $Asubseteqmathbb{R}^n$, no choice is needed. Indeed, note that if $Bsubsetmathbb{R}^n$ is any closed ball, there is a continuous surjection from an interval to $B$. Concatenating infinitely many such space-filling curves onto smaller and smaller balls around a point $a$, we get a single continuous path $gamma:[0,1]to A$ such that a map $f$ on $A$ is continuous at $a$ iff $fcircgamma$ is continuous at $0$.





Let us now discuss more general spaces; the upshot is that the axiom of choice is required to prove these results in general. I will say a space $A$ is pseudopath-generated if it satisfies your condition: that is, a map $f:Ato Y$ is continuous at a point $ain A$ iff for any map $gamma:[0,1]to A$ such that $gamma(0)=a$ and $gamma$ is continuous at $0$, $fcircgamma$ is continuous at $0$. I will say a space $A$ is path-generated if the same condition holds but with $gamma$ required to be continuous on all of $[0,1]$.



Note that the result you linked regarding first countable locally path-connected spaces actually says that they are path-generated, not just pseudopath-generated. Indeed, pseudopath-generation doesn't really have anything to do with paths, since continuity of $gamma$ at a single point is a very weak condition. A similar argument shows that in fact every first countable space is pseudopath-generated.



The statement that every first countable locally path-connected space is path-generated is equivalent to countable choice. Let me first observe that countable choice is equivalent to the following (seemingly weaker) statement.




$(*)$ Given a countable family of $(X_n)_{ninmathbb{N}}$ of nonempty sets, there exists an infinite subset $Ssubseteqmathbb{N}$ and a choice function for $(X_n)_{nin S}$.




To prove countable choice from $(*)$, let $(Y_n)_{ninmathbb{N}}$ be a countable family of nonempty sets and let $X_n$ be the set of choice functions for the initial segment $(Y_m)_{m<n}$. Then $(*)$ gives a choice function $f$ on an subsequence of $(X_n)$, which then gives a choice function $g$ for all of $(Y_n)$ (let $g(m)=f(n)(m)$ where $n$ is minimal in the domain of $f$ such that $f(n)(m)$ is defined).



Now here is a sketch of a proof that path-generation of first countable locally path-connected spaces implies $(*)$. Let $(X_n)$ be a countable family of nonempty sets. Let $*$ be some point that is not an element of any $X_n$ and let $Y_n=X_ncup{*}$. Let $G$ be the graph with vertex set $mathbb{N}$ and an edge from $n$ to $n+1$ for each element of $Y_n$. Consider this graph as a topological space, not with the weak topology but with the natural metric that makes each edge a path of length 1. Let $A=Gcup{infty}$, where a neighborhood of $infty$ must contain all sufficiently large vertices and edges between them in $G$.



Then $A$ is first countable and locally path-connected (for local path-connectedness at $infty$, we use the fact that we can get a path from any vertex of $G$ to $infty$ by infinitely concatenating the paths from $n$ to $n+1$ indexed by $*$). Now consider the map $f:Ato[0,1]$ defined as follows: $f(x)=0$ if $x$ is a vertex of $G$ or $infty$, or is on one of the paths labelled by $*$. On each path labelled by an element of $X_n$, $f$ starts at $0$, goes up to $1$, and then goes back down to $0$.



This map $f$ is not continuous at $infty$, since every neighborhood of $infty$ contains paths labelled by elements of $X_n$. But to witness this discontinuity with a path in $A$, we would need a path $gamma:[0,1]to A$ which passes through paths corresponding to elements of $X_n$ for arbitrarily large $n$. Such a path would give a choice function on a subsequence of $(X_n)$ (for instance, for each $n$ such that $gamma$ goes into the path corresponding to an element of $X_n$, choose the least rational point in $[0,1]$ with respect to some well-ordering of the rationals which maps into the path corresponding to an element of $X_n$, and use that to choose an element of $X_n$).





Let me now return to pseudopath-generated spaces. Everything in the argument above still works if $A$ is known only to be pseudopath-generated, except for the very last step where we use the path $gamma$ to get a choice function on a subsequence of $(X_n)$. If $gamma$ is not assumed to be continuous on $[0,1]$, then we do not have a canonical way to choose one particular element of $X_n$ which it hits. However, if we assume that $mathbb{R}$ can be well-ordered, then the argument still works and proves countable choice. In particular, since ZF+"there exists a well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$" cannot prove countable choice, this implies that ZF cannot prove every first countable locally path-connected space is pseudopath-generated.



By similar arguments we can prove the following are equivalent over ZF:




  1. All first-countable spaces are pseudopath-generated.

  2. If $(X_n)$ is any family of nonempty sets then there exists a function $f$ on $mathbb{N}timesmathbb{R}$ such that for each $n$, there exists $rinmathbb{R}$ such that $f(n,r)in X_n$.


Statement 2 follows from countable choice and cannot be proved in ZF, but I suspect it is strictly weaker than countable choice.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    For the $mathbf{R}^n$ case, how do we know $f^{-1}(V) backslash B(a,1/n)$ has rational points? I pose this while fearing I am missing something obvious.
    $endgroup$
    – Stephen Herschkorn
    Mar 29 at 5:22










  • $begingroup$
    Oh, oops, I was just wrong. (By the way, the relevant set is $B(a,1/n)setminus f^{-1}(V)$, not the other way around.)
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 29 at 5:26










  • $begingroup$
    Oh, you're right about the relevant set. I think I'll fix it in the original post.
    $endgroup$
    – Stephen Herschkorn
    Mar 29 at 6:11












  • $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey Don't you think that any analytic set existence require AC ?
    $endgroup$
    – Soleil
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    ... aha, I see it now. You can use the "same" curve each time, scaled to the different balls.
    $endgroup$
    – David Hartley
    2 days ago
















6












$begingroup$

For open subsets $Asubseteqmathbb{R}^n$, no choice is needed. Indeed, note that if $Bsubsetmathbb{R}^n$ is any closed ball, there is a continuous surjection from an interval to $B$. Concatenating infinitely many such space-filling curves onto smaller and smaller balls around a point $a$, we get a single continuous path $gamma:[0,1]to A$ such that a map $f$ on $A$ is continuous at $a$ iff $fcircgamma$ is continuous at $0$.





Let us now discuss more general spaces; the upshot is that the axiom of choice is required to prove these results in general. I will say a space $A$ is pseudopath-generated if it satisfies your condition: that is, a map $f:Ato Y$ is continuous at a point $ain A$ iff for any map $gamma:[0,1]to A$ such that $gamma(0)=a$ and $gamma$ is continuous at $0$, $fcircgamma$ is continuous at $0$. I will say a space $A$ is path-generated if the same condition holds but with $gamma$ required to be continuous on all of $[0,1]$.



Note that the result you linked regarding first countable locally path-connected spaces actually says that they are path-generated, not just pseudopath-generated. Indeed, pseudopath-generation doesn't really have anything to do with paths, since continuity of $gamma$ at a single point is a very weak condition. A similar argument shows that in fact every first countable space is pseudopath-generated.



The statement that every first countable locally path-connected space is path-generated is equivalent to countable choice. Let me first observe that countable choice is equivalent to the following (seemingly weaker) statement.




$(*)$ Given a countable family of $(X_n)_{ninmathbb{N}}$ of nonempty sets, there exists an infinite subset $Ssubseteqmathbb{N}$ and a choice function for $(X_n)_{nin S}$.




To prove countable choice from $(*)$, let $(Y_n)_{ninmathbb{N}}$ be a countable family of nonempty sets and let $X_n$ be the set of choice functions for the initial segment $(Y_m)_{m<n}$. Then $(*)$ gives a choice function $f$ on an subsequence of $(X_n)$, which then gives a choice function $g$ for all of $(Y_n)$ (let $g(m)=f(n)(m)$ where $n$ is minimal in the domain of $f$ such that $f(n)(m)$ is defined).



Now here is a sketch of a proof that path-generation of first countable locally path-connected spaces implies $(*)$. Let $(X_n)$ be a countable family of nonempty sets. Let $*$ be some point that is not an element of any $X_n$ and let $Y_n=X_ncup{*}$. Let $G$ be the graph with vertex set $mathbb{N}$ and an edge from $n$ to $n+1$ for each element of $Y_n$. Consider this graph as a topological space, not with the weak topology but with the natural metric that makes each edge a path of length 1. Let $A=Gcup{infty}$, where a neighborhood of $infty$ must contain all sufficiently large vertices and edges between them in $G$.



Then $A$ is first countable and locally path-connected (for local path-connectedness at $infty$, we use the fact that we can get a path from any vertex of $G$ to $infty$ by infinitely concatenating the paths from $n$ to $n+1$ indexed by $*$). Now consider the map $f:Ato[0,1]$ defined as follows: $f(x)=0$ if $x$ is a vertex of $G$ or $infty$, or is on one of the paths labelled by $*$. On each path labelled by an element of $X_n$, $f$ starts at $0$, goes up to $1$, and then goes back down to $0$.



This map $f$ is not continuous at $infty$, since every neighborhood of $infty$ contains paths labelled by elements of $X_n$. But to witness this discontinuity with a path in $A$, we would need a path $gamma:[0,1]to A$ which passes through paths corresponding to elements of $X_n$ for arbitrarily large $n$. Such a path would give a choice function on a subsequence of $(X_n)$ (for instance, for each $n$ such that $gamma$ goes into the path corresponding to an element of $X_n$, choose the least rational point in $[0,1]$ with respect to some well-ordering of the rationals which maps into the path corresponding to an element of $X_n$, and use that to choose an element of $X_n$).





Let me now return to pseudopath-generated spaces. Everything in the argument above still works if $A$ is known only to be pseudopath-generated, except for the very last step where we use the path $gamma$ to get a choice function on a subsequence of $(X_n)$. If $gamma$ is not assumed to be continuous on $[0,1]$, then we do not have a canonical way to choose one particular element of $X_n$ which it hits. However, if we assume that $mathbb{R}$ can be well-ordered, then the argument still works and proves countable choice. In particular, since ZF+"there exists a well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$" cannot prove countable choice, this implies that ZF cannot prove every first countable locally path-connected space is pseudopath-generated.



By similar arguments we can prove the following are equivalent over ZF:




  1. All first-countable spaces are pseudopath-generated.

  2. If $(X_n)$ is any family of nonempty sets then there exists a function $f$ on $mathbb{N}timesmathbb{R}$ such that for each $n$, there exists $rinmathbb{R}$ such that $f(n,r)in X_n$.


Statement 2 follows from countable choice and cannot be proved in ZF, but I suspect it is strictly weaker than countable choice.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    For the $mathbf{R}^n$ case, how do we know $f^{-1}(V) backslash B(a,1/n)$ has rational points? I pose this while fearing I am missing something obvious.
    $endgroup$
    – Stephen Herschkorn
    Mar 29 at 5:22










  • $begingroup$
    Oh, oops, I was just wrong. (By the way, the relevant set is $B(a,1/n)setminus f^{-1}(V)$, not the other way around.)
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 29 at 5:26










  • $begingroup$
    Oh, you're right about the relevant set. I think I'll fix it in the original post.
    $endgroup$
    – Stephen Herschkorn
    Mar 29 at 6:11












  • $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey Don't you think that any analytic set existence require AC ?
    $endgroup$
    – Soleil
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    ... aha, I see it now. You can use the "same" curve each time, scaled to the different balls.
    $endgroup$
    – David Hartley
    2 days ago














6












6








6





$begingroup$

For open subsets $Asubseteqmathbb{R}^n$, no choice is needed. Indeed, note that if $Bsubsetmathbb{R}^n$ is any closed ball, there is a continuous surjection from an interval to $B$. Concatenating infinitely many such space-filling curves onto smaller and smaller balls around a point $a$, we get a single continuous path $gamma:[0,1]to A$ such that a map $f$ on $A$ is continuous at $a$ iff $fcircgamma$ is continuous at $0$.





Let us now discuss more general spaces; the upshot is that the axiom of choice is required to prove these results in general. I will say a space $A$ is pseudopath-generated if it satisfies your condition: that is, a map $f:Ato Y$ is continuous at a point $ain A$ iff for any map $gamma:[0,1]to A$ such that $gamma(0)=a$ and $gamma$ is continuous at $0$, $fcircgamma$ is continuous at $0$. I will say a space $A$ is path-generated if the same condition holds but with $gamma$ required to be continuous on all of $[0,1]$.



Note that the result you linked regarding first countable locally path-connected spaces actually says that they are path-generated, not just pseudopath-generated. Indeed, pseudopath-generation doesn't really have anything to do with paths, since continuity of $gamma$ at a single point is a very weak condition. A similar argument shows that in fact every first countable space is pseudopath-generated.



The statement that every first countable locally path-connected space is path-generated is equivalent to countable choice. Let me first observe that countable choice is equivalent to the following (seemingly weaker) statement.




$(*)$ Given a countable family of $(X_n)_{ninmathbb{N}}$ of nonempty sets, there exists an infinite subset $Ssubseteqmathbb{N}$ and a choice function for $(X_n)_{nin S}$.




To prove countable choice from $(*)$, let $(Y_n)_{ninmathbb{N}}$ be a countable family of nonempty sets and let $X_n$ be the set of choice functions for the initial segment $(Y_m)_{m<n}$. Then $(*)$ gives a choice function $f$ on an subsequence of $(X_n)$, which then gives a choice function $g$ for all of $(Y_n)$ (let $g(m)=f(n)(m)$ where $n$ is minimal in the domain of $f$ such that $f(n)(m)$ is defined).



Now here is a sketch of a proof that path-generation of first countable locally path-connected spaces implies $(*)$. Let $(X_n)$ be a countable family of nonempty sets. Let $*$ be some point that is not an element of any $X_n$ and let $Y_n=X_ncup{*}$. Let $G$ be the graph with vertex set $mathbb{N}$ and an edge from $n$ to $n+1$ for each element of $Y_n$. Consider this graph as a topological space, not with the weak topology but with the natural metric that makes each edge a path of length 1. Let $A=Gcup{infty}$, where a neighborhood of $infty$ must contain all sufficiently large vertices and edges between them in $G$.



Then $A$ is first countable and locally path-connected (for local path-connectedness at $infty$, we use the fact that we can get a path from any vertex of $G$ to $infty$ by infinitely concatenating the paths from $n$ to $n+1$ indexed by $*$). Now consider the map $f:Ato[0,1]$ defined as follows: $f(x)=0$ if $x$ is a vertex of $G$ or $infty$, or is on one of the paths labelled by $*$. On each path labelled by an element of $X_n$, $f$ starts at $0$, goes up to $1$, and then goes back down to $0$.



This map $f$ is not continuous at $infty$, since every neighborhood of $infty$ contains paths labelled by elements of $X_n$. But to witness this discontinuity with a path in $A$, we would need a path $gamma:[0,1]to A$ which passes through paths corresponding to elements of $X_n$ for arbitrarily large $n$. Such a path would give a choice function on a subsequence of $(X_n)$ (for instance, for each $n$ such that $gamma$ goes into the path corresponding to an element of $X_n$, choose the least rational point in $[0,1]$ with respect to some well-ordering of the rationals which maps into the path corresponding to an element of $X_n$, and use that to choose an element of $X_n$).





Let me now return to pseudopath-generated spaces. Everything in the argument above still works if $A$ is known only to be pseudopath-generated, except for the very last step where we use the path $gamma$ to get a choice function on a subsequence of $(X_n)$. If $gamma$ is not assumed to be continuous on $[0,1]$, then we do not have a canonical way to choose one particular element of $X_n$ which it hits. However, if we assume that $mathbb{R}$ can be well-ordered, then the argument still works and proves countable choice. In particular, since ZF+"there exists a well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$" cannot prove countable choice, this implies that ZF cannot prove every first countable locally path-connected space is pseudopath-generated.



By similar arguments we can prove the following are equivalent over ZF:




  1. All first-countable spaces are pseudopath-generated.

  2. If $(X_n)$ is any family of nonempty sets then there exists a function $f$ on $mathbb{N}timesmathbb{R}$ such that for each $n$, there exists $rinmathbb{R}$ such that $f(n,r)in X_n$.


Statement 2 follows from countable choice and cannot be proved in ZF, but I suspect it is strictly weaker than countable choice.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



For open subsets $Asubseteqmathbb{R}^n$, no choice is needed. Indeed, note that if $Bsubsetmathbb{R}^n$ is any closed ball, there is a continuous surjection from an interval to $B$. Concatenating infinitely many such space-filling curves onto smaller and smaller balls around a point $a$, we get a single continuous path $gamma:[0,1]to A$ such that a map $f$ on $A$ is continuous at $a$ iff $fcircgamma$ is continuous at $0$.





Let us now discuss more general spaces; the upshot is that the axiom of choice is required to prove these results in general. I will say a space $A$ is pseudopath-generated if it satisfies your condition: that is, a map $f:Ato Y$ is continuous at a point $ain A$ iff for any map $gamma:[0,1]to A$ such that $gamma(0)=a$ and $gamma$ is continuous at $0$, $fcircgamma$ is continuous at $0$. I will say a space $A$ is path-generated if the same condition holds but with $gamma$ required to be continuous on all of $[0,1]$.



Note that the result you linked regarding first countable locally path-connected spaces actually says that they are path-generated, not just pseudopath-generated. Indeed, pseudopath-generation doesn't really have anything to do with paths, since continuity of $gamma$ at a single point is a very weak condition. A similar argument shows that in fact every first countable space is pseudopath-generated.



The statement that every first countable locally path-connected space is path-generated is equivalent to countable choice. Let me first observe that countable choice is equivalent to the following (seemingly weaker) statement.




$(*)$ Given a countable family of $(X_n)_{ninmathbb{N}}$ of nonempty sets, there exists an infinite subset $Ssubseteqmathbb{N}$ and a choice function for $(X_n)_{nin S}$.




To prove countable choice from $(*)$, let $(Y_n)_{ninmathbb{N}}$ be a countable family of nonempty sets and let $X_n$ be the set of choice functions for the initial segment $(Y_m)_{m<n}$. Then $(*)$ gives a choice function $f$ on an subsequence of $(X_n)$, which then gives a choice function $g$ for all of $(Y_n)$ (let $g(m)=f(n)(m)$ where $n$ is minimal in the domain of $f$ such that $f(n)(m)$ is defined).



Now here is a sketch of a proof that path-generation of first countable locally path-connected spaces implies $(*)$. Let $(X_n)$ be a countable family of nonempty sets. Let $*$ be some point that is not an element of any $X_n$ and let $Y_n=X_ncup{*}$. Let $G$ be the graph with vertex set $mathbb{N}$ and an edge from $n$ to $n+1$ for each element of $Y_n$. Consider this graph as a topological space, not with the weak topology but with the natural metric that makes each edge a path of length 1. Let $A=Gcup{infty}$, where a neighborhood of $infty$ must contain all sufficiently large vertices and edges between them in $G$.



Then $A$ is first countable and locally path-connected (for local path-connectedness at $infty$, we use the fact that we can get a path from any vertex of $G$ to $infty$ by infinitely concatenating the paths from $n$ to $n+1$ indexed by $*$). Now consider the map $f:Ato[0,1]$ defined as follows: $f(x)=0$ if $x$ is a vertex of $G$ or $infty$, or is on one of the paths labelled by $*$. On each path labelled by an element of $X_n$, $f$ starts at $0$, goes up to $1$, and then goes back down to $0$.



This map $f$ is not continuous at $infty$, since every neighborhood of $infty$ contains paths labelled by elements of $X_n$. But to witness this discontinuity with a path in $A$, we would need a path $gamma:[0,1]to A$ which passes through paths corresponding to elements of $X_n$ for arbitrarily large $n$. Such a path would give a choice function on a subsequence of $(X_n)$ (for instance, for each $n$ such that $gamma$ goes into the path corresponding to an element of $X_n$, choose the least rational point in $[0,1]$ with respect to some well-ordering of the rationals which maps into the path corresponding to an element of $X_n$, and use that to choose an element of $X_n$).





Let me now return to pseudopath-generated spaces. Everything in the argument above still works if $A$ is known only to be pseudopath-generated, except for the very last step where we use the path $gamma$ to get a choice function on a subsequence of $(X_n)$. If $gamma$ is not assumed to be continuous on $[0,1]$, then we do not have a canonical way to choose one particular element of $X_n$ which it hits. However, if we assume that $mathbb{R}$ can be well-ordered, then the argument still works and proves countable choice. In particular, since ZF+"there exists a well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$" cannot prove countable choice, this implies that ZF cannot prove every first countable locally path-connected space is pseudopath-generated.



By similar arguments we can prove the following are equivalent over ZF:




  1. All first-countable spaces are pseudopath-generated.

  2. If $(X_n)$ is any family of nonempty sets then there exists a function $f$ on $mathbb{N}timesmathbb{R}$ such that for each $n$, there exists $rinmathbb{R}$ such that $f(n,r)in X_n$.


Statement 2 follows from countable choice and cannot be proved in ZF, but I suspect it is strictly weaker than countable choice.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited 2 days ago

























answered Mar 29 at 4:46









Eric WofseyEric Wofsey

191k14216349




191k14216349












  • $begingroup$
    For the $mathbf{R}^n$ case, how do we know $f^{-1}(V) backslash B(a,1/n)$ has rational points? I pose this while fearing I am missing something obvious.
    $endgroup$
    – Stephen Herschkorn
    Mar 29 at 5:22










  • $begingroup$
    Oh, oops, I was just wrong. (By the way, the relevant set is $B(a,1/n)setminus f^{-1}(V)$, not the other way around.)
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 29 at 5:26










  • $begingroup$
    Oh, you're right about the relevant set. I think I'll fix it in the original post.
    $endgroup$
    – Stephen Herschkorn
    Mar 29 at 6:11












  • $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey Don't you think that any analytic set existence require AC ?
    $endgroup$
    – Soleil
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    ... aha, I see it now. You can use the "same" curve each time, scaled to the different balls.
    $endgroup$
    – David Hartley
    2 days ago


















  • $begingroup$
    For the $mathbf{R}^n$ case, how do we know $f^{-1}(V) backslash B(a,1/n)$ has rational points? I pose this while fearing I am missing something obvious.
    $endgroup$
    – Stephen Herschkorn
    Mar 29 at 5:22










  • $begingroup$
    Oh, oops, I was just wrong. (By the way, the relevant set is $B(a,1/n)setminus f^{-1}(V)$, not the other way around.)
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    Mar 29 at 5:26










  • $begingroup$
    Oh, you're right about the relevant set. I think I'll fix it in the original post.
    $endgroup$
    – Stephen Herschkorn
    Mar 29 at 6:11












  • $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey Don't you think that any analytic set existence require AC ?
    $endgroup$
    – Soleil
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    ... aha, I see it now. You can use the "same" curve each time, scaled to the different balls.
    $endgroup$
    – David Hartley
    2 days ago
















$begingroup$
For the $mathbf{R}^n$ case, how do we know $f^{-1}(V) backslash B(a,1/n)$ has rational points? I pose this while fearing I am missing something obvious.
$endgroup$
– Stephen Herschkorn
Mar 29 at 5:22




$begingroup$
For the $mathbf{R}^n$ case, how do we know $f^{-1}(V) backslash B(a,1/n)$ has rational points? I pose this while fearing I am missing something obvious.
$endgroup$
– Stephen Herschkorn
Mar 29 at 5:22












$begingroup$
Oh, oops, I was just wrong. (By the way, the relevant set is $B(a,1/n)setminus f^{-1}(V)$, not the other way around.)
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 29 at 5:26




$begingroup$
Oh, oops, I was just wrong. (By the way, the relevant set is $B(a,1/n)setminus f^{-1}(V)$, not the other way around.)
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
Mar 29 at 5:26












$begingroup$
Oh, you're right about the relevant set. I think I'll fix it in the original post.
$endgroup$
– Stephen Herschkorn
Mar 29 at 6:11






$begingroup$
Oh, you're right about the relevant set. I think I'll fix it in the original post.
$endgroup$
– Stephen Herschkorn
Mar 29 at 6:11














$begingroup$
@EricWofsey Don't you think that any analytic set existence require AC ?
$endgroup$
– Soleil
2 days ago




$begingroup$
@EricWofsey Don't you think that any analytic set existence require AC ?
$endgroup$
– Soleil
2 days ago




1




1




$begingroup$
... aha, I see it now. You can use the "same" curve each time, scaled to the different balls.
$endgroup$
– David Hartley
2 days ago




$begingroup$
... aha, I see it now. You can use the "same" curve each time, scaled to the different balls.
$endgroup$
– David Hartley
2 days ago


















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