What is the difference, if any, between “Permanent”, and “Until Dispelled”?











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Some spells, such as Forbiddance, say that under certain circumstances, they last "Until Dispelled". Other spells, such as Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, say that under certain circumstances, they become "Permanent".



What is the difference between these two terms? Does "Permanent" mean that the effect can never be dispelled?










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  • Related: What is the meaning of 'permanent' in description of True Polymorph? and Can True Polymorph be dispelled or reversed?
    – Purple Monkey
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:18








  • 1




    Related/followup, by you, just now: How can I make a spell dispel-proof?
    – V2Blast
    Nov 26 at 14:29










  • Follow-up: How hard is to dispel spell that got permanent by casting it every day for a year with different spell slots?
    – Mołot
    Nov 27 at 10:09










  • Related meta post about these two questions
    – Mołot
    Nov 27 at 14:14










  • Just as a note: your previously accepted answer has been deleted at the request of the author. You may of course select a new answer if one is there that you like.
    – Rubiksmoose
    Nov 27 at 19:46















up vote
19
down vote

favorite












Some spells, such as Forbiddance, say that under certain circumstances, they last "Until Dispelled". Other spells, such as Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, say that under certain circumstances, they become "Permanent".



What is the difference between these two terms? Does "Permanent" mean that the effect can never be dispelled?










share|improve this question
























  • Related: What is the meaning of 'permanent' in description of True Polymorph? and Can True Polymorph be dispelled or reversed?
    – Purple Monkey
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:18








  • 1




    Related/followup, by you, just now: How can I make a spell dispel-proof?
    – V2Blast
    Nov 26 at 14:29










  • Follow-up: How hard is to dispel spell that got permanent by casting it every day for a year with different spell slots?
    – Mołot
    Nov 27 at 10:09










  • Related meta post about these two questions
    – Mołot
    Nov 27 at 14:14










  • Just as a note: your previously accepted answer has been deleted at the request of the author. You may of course select a new answer if one is there that you like.
    – Rubiksmoose
    Nov 27 at 19:46













up vote
19
down vote

favorite









up vote
19
down vote

favorite











Some spells, such as Forbiddance, say that under certain circumstances, they last "Until Dispelled". Other spells, such as Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, say that under certain circumstances, they become "Permanent".



What is the difference between these two terms? Does "Permanent" mean that the effect can never be dispelled?










share|improve this question















Some spells, such as Forbiddance, say that under certain circumstances, they last "Until Dispelled". Other spells, such as Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, say that under certain circumstances, they become "Permanent".



What is the difference between these two terms? Does "Permanent" mean that the effect can never be dispelled?







dnd-5e spells rules-as-written






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edited Nov 27 at 16:03









BlueMoon93

11.7k963125




11.7k963125










asked Sep 11 '15 at 2:04









Strill

4,79522958




4,79522958












  • Related: What is the meaning of 'permanent' in description of True Polymorph? and Can True Polymorph be dispelled or reversed?
    – Purple Monkey
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:18








  • 1




    Related/followup, by you, just now: How can I make a spell dispel-proof?
    – V2Blast
    Nov 26 at 14:29










  • Follow-up: How hard is to dispel spell that got permanent by casting it every day for a year with different spell slots?
    – Mołot
    Nov 27 at 10:09










  • Related meta post about these two questions
    – Mołot
    Nov 27 at 14:14










  • Just as a note: your previously accepted answer has been deleted at the request of the author. You may of course select a new answer if one is there that you like.
    – Rubiksmoose
    Nov 27 at 19:46


















  • Related: What is the meaning of 'permanent' in description of True Polymorph? and Can True Polymorph be dispelled or reversed?
    – Purple Monkey
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:18








  • 1




    Related/followup, by you, just now: How can I make a spell dispel-proof?
    – V2Blast
    Nov 26 at 14:29










  • Follow-up: How hard is to dispel spell that got permanent by casting it every day for a year with different spell slots?
    – Mołot
    Nov 27 at 10:09










  • Related meta post about these two questions
    – Mołot
    Nov 27 at 14:14










  • Just as a note: your previously accepted answer has been deleted at the request of the author. You may of course select a new answer if one is there that you like.
    – Rubiksmoose
    Nov 27 at 19:46
















Related: What is the meaning of 'permanent' in description of True Polymorph? and Can True Polymorph be dispelled or reversed?
– Purple Monkey
Sep 11 '15 at 2:18






Related: What is the meaning of 'permanent' in description of True Polymorph? and Can True Polymorph be dispelled or reversed?
– Purple Monkey
Sep 11 '15 at 2:18






1




1




Related/followup, by you, just now: How can I make a spell dispel-proof?
– V2Blast
Nov 26 at 14:29




Related/followup, by you, just now: How can I make a spell dispel-proof?
– V2Blast
Nov 26 at 14:29












Follow-up: How hard is to dispel spell that got permanent by casting it every day for a year with different spell slots?
– Mołot
Nov 27 at 10:09




Follow-up: How hard is to dispel spell that got permanent by casting it every day for a year with different spell slots?
– Mołot
Nov 27 at 10:09












Related meta post about these two questions
– Mołot
Nov 27 at 14:14




Related meta post about these two questions
– Mołot
Nov 27 at 14:14












Just as a note: your previously accepted answer has been deleted at the request of the author. You may of course select a new answer if one is there that you like.
– Rubiksmoose
Nov 27 at 19:46




Just as a note: your previously accepted answer has been deleted at the request of the author. You may of course select a new answer if one is there that you like.
– Rubiksmoose
Nov 27 at 19:46










6 Answers
6






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up vote
30
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The verbiage "Until Dispelled" and "Permanent" are functionally the same with regards to spell duration.



As Jeremy Crawford indicates here.




If the effect of a spell becomes permanent, it can be dispelled,
unless its description says otherwise.




Later this makes it into the official Sage Advice Compendium




Can permanent magical effects be dispelled? Or are they no longer considered magical effects once permanent?



If the effect of a spell becomes permanent, it can be dispelled, unless its description says otherwise (such as in the wall of stone spell).




So unless a spell description says otherwise it is still an effect of the spell and dispel magic ends spells.



The logic behind RAW as I see it is that dispel magic ends spells. A spell effect that becomes permanent is still an effect created by a spell, thus can be ended with dispel magic unless more specific verbiage (e.g. the text of a specific spell) states otherwise.






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  • 1




    Unfortunately, this ruling from Crawford and SA renders the point of the word permanent meaningless, and harms these high level spells. It also contradicts Crawford's, and the devs general, stance on using plain English Nov 12 The word "ally" in D&D retains its English meaning when referring to someone else: someone who cooperates with or helps you in a particular activity. A word in the rules means what it means in English, unless the rules redefine the word in some way Your answer cites SA, so it's good.
    – KorvinStarmast
    Nov 27 at 15:58












  • Your answer comes from "Save Advice" but then you say it is raw. A comment elsewhere, but Molot, says that Sage Advice is not raw. A link was provided which I cannot view (it's blocked for me): sageadvice.eu/2017/09/06/…
    – Aaron
    Nov 27 at 23:12










  • So, if that is true (SA does not equal RAW) then please edit so we don't have to bring this answer's score back down.
    – Aaron
    Nov 27 at 23:12










  • @Aaron: Sage Advice in general = official rulings, not rules. Though many of Crawford's answers simply reference the rules as written themselves.
    – V2Blast
    Nov 28 at 0:25










  • @Aaron Also, this question has been dramatically changed since I first answered it. So I will edit a bit to fit what it is now (which is essentially one that Molot linked to me earlier today).
    – Slagmoth
    Nov 28 at 0:32


















up vote
14
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No difference.



Despite being an old question, I'll have to put here the other perspective. According to JC,





  • So the durations "Until Dispelled" and "Permanent" are functionally equivalent unless we houserule one of them?

  • That's correct.




And according to Sage Advice,





  • Can permanent magical effects be dispelled? Or are they
    no longer considered magical effects once permanent?

  • If
    the effect of a spell becomes permanent, it can be dispelled,
    unless its description says otherwise (such as in the wall of
    stone
    spell).




Some spells do say "until dispelled", like Forbidance or True Polymorph, while others use the "permanent" nomenclature, like Private Sanctum. The discrepancy is strange, but it may have been an oversight from the designers. I think the idea is that, any magical effect created by a spell can be dispelled, thus falling in line with Dispel Magic's text.




Choose any creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell [...] on the target ends.




There are no assumptions regarding the duration of the effect, only that its spell (and thus effect) is terminated. Also consider spells like Wall of Stone, that claim




If you maintain your concentration on this spell for its whole duration, the wall becomes permanent and can’t be dispelled.




So, despite being permanent, they specify how they can't be dispelled. This seems another indication that permanent just means "infinite duration".





As a DM, maybe you can house-rule it so that it is much harder (or even impossible) to dispel permanent effects (similar to Artifact magical items), but at least according to the designers, it seems that, as you asked, there is no difference between "until dispelled" and "permanent".






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  • Some spells do say "until dispelled", like Forbidance or True Polymorph, while others use the "permanent" nomenclature, like Private Sanctum. The discrepancy is strange, but it may have been an oversight from the designers. It is absolutely amazing that WotC can put out both mtg, a game with an extremely tight set of rules, and DnD, which is so very much the opposite. They use ambiguous / synonymous terms, when it gets pointed out that it is confusing they only errata it some of the time. Absolute Insanity!
    – Shane
    2 days ago


















up vote
9
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RAW, yes it can be dispelled.



A Teleportation Circle would be a magical effect (it is the effect of a spell, after all). There is nothing in the spell description that says making it permanent changes this.



And Dispel Magic specifically says it can target a magical effect as you point out.



So this would work.



On the other hand, it seems a bit harsh for a year of work to be cancelled out by a single casting of Dispel Magic! As a DM I might declare that a Teleportation Circle made permanent is now a magic item rather than a magic effect and therefore not affected by Dispel Magic (or possibly only temporarily suppressible). But this would be a homebrew ruling.






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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – mxyzplk
    2 days ago


















up vote
1
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A teleportation circle is the effect of a spell.



Effects of spells are magical effects.



So you can dispel a teleportation circle; the DC is 15. Arguably the wizard could cast the last teleportation circle at a higher level to boost the DC slightly.



However, it is worse than that.




Many major temples, guilds, and other important places have permanent teleportation circles inscribed somewhere within their confines. Each such circle includes a unique sigil sequence--a string of magical runes arranged in a particular pattern.




A permanent teleportation circle must have a unique sigil sequence -- a string of magical runes arranged in a particular pattern -- inscribed somewhere within their confines.



Thus, if you remove the unique sigil sequence, there is no teleportation circle there anymore. Whatever material the circle is inscribed on can be vandalized and the circle destroyed.



(Permanent Teleportation Circle) implies (Sigils Inscribed), thus not (Sigils Inscribed) implies not (Permanent Teleportation Circle). So either destroying the Sigils destroys the Circle, or the Sigils cannot be destroyed (which seems to be stretching things).



So Dispel Magic is just slightly faster than a mundane with a pickaxe.



The question the destroyer has to ask is, do they want to destroy a wizard-year of work and almost 20k of components invested? Or do they want to learn another destination.






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  • @aaron (a=>b)<=>(not b=>not a) is true. You are mistaking it for something else probably; I suspect (a=>b) and not a=>not b, which are not equivalent. Swaping sides of an implication and negating both sides is truth preserving; negating both sides is not truth preserving, swapping is not truth preserving. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraposition is the "logic" word for it; I can also provide truth tables upon request.
    – Yakk
    Nov 28 at 2:23












  • Oops, you are correct and I was mistaking it for a different rule. Sorry to have bothered you. I have deleted my false claim.
    – Aaron
    2 days ago


















up vote
-1
down vote













I'm not sure how accurate my interpretation is, but I'd argue a permanent teleportation circle is not a magical effect any more than someone's death due to Power Word Kill is, and thus unless Dispel Magic could resurrect someone killed with Power Word Kill, I'd argue a permanent teleportation circle can't be dispelled either.



I have to disagree that the duration is permanent. The spell's duration is 1 round/6 seconds. The wording of the spell says you can "create a permanent teleportation circle", rather than extend the duration of anything. I'd argue that a "Permanent Teleportation Circle" is a completely separate thing from a Teleportation Circle, and that there's no magic holding one in place. I believe it to be more simply like a marker, perhaps a "dent" in the Weave so to speak. It doesn't teleport anything; rather, a normal Teleportation Circle does. A permanent circle simply serves as a marker for the spell to "lock on" to. The magic lasts 6 seconds each time the spell is used, but beyond that what is left is not a magical effect in my interpretation.






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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – mxyzplk
    2 days ago


















up vote
-6
down vote













Unfortunately to the best of my knowledge this isn't specified in any detail in the books. However, the language itself isn't meant to hide anything so:



"Until Dispelled" means that the caster retains some hold on the magic after its been cast, and can still dispel it at any time. At the same time, however, the spell does not require active concentration once cast, so the caster can do anything else he wishes while the spell is in effect.



"Permanent" however, means that once cast, the caster cannot simply turn it off. The Permanent duration bestows no special resistance to dispelling however, but even the caster would need to cast a spell halt the effect.



As always with 5th edition, YMMV.






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  • 1




    I wasn't aware that casters could dispel their own spells at will, unless the spell required concentration. Could you give a citation for that?
    – Strill
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:23












  • Fire Shield, among other spells with durations, lists that it can be dismissed before its 10-minute duration is up. However, as I stated in my first paragraph the is no specific definition of "Until Dispelled" in the books. Most games I've played in, the assumption was the caster could always end his own spells early. But again YMMV.
    – Brian_Drozd
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:41












  • Guards and Wards, Mordekainen's Private Sanctum, Nystul's Magic Aura, and Teleportation Circle all have increased duration if you cast them in the same location repeatedly.
    – Strill
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:43













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6 Answers
6






active

oldest

votes








6 Answers
6






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

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active

oldest

votes








up vote
30
down vote













The verbiage "Until Dispelled" and "Permanent" are functionally the same with regards to spell duration.



As Jeremy Crawford indicates here.




If the effect of a spell becomes permanent, it can be dispelled,
unless its description says otherwise.




Later this makes it into the official Sage Advice Compendium




Can permanent magical effects be dispelled? Or are they no longer considered magical effects once permanent?



If the effect of a spell becomes permanent, it can be dispelled, unless its description says otherwise (such as in the wall of stone spell).




So unless a spell description says otherwise it is still an effect of the spell and dispel magic ends spells.



The logic behind RAW as I see it is that dispel magic ends spells. A spell effect that becomes permanent is still an effect created by a spell, thus can be ended with dispel magic unless more specific verbiage (e.g. the text of a specific spell) states otherwise.






share|improve this answer



















  • 1




    Unfortunately, this ruling from Crawford and SA renders the point of the word permanent meaningless, and harms these high level spells. It also contradicts Crawford's, and the devs general, stance on using plain English Nov 12 The word "ally" in D&D retains its English meaning when referring to someone else: someone who cooperates with or helps you in a particular activity. A word in the rules means what it means in English, unless the rules redefine the word in some way Your answer cites SA, so it's good.
    – KorvinStarmast
    Nov 27 at 15:58












  • Your answer comes from "Save Advice" but then you say it is raw. A comment elsewhere, but Molot, says that Sage Advice is not raw. A link was provided which I cannot view (it's blocked for me): sageadvice.eu/2017/09/06/…
    – Aaron
    Nov 27 at 23:12










  • So, if that is true (SA does not equal RAW) then please edit so we don't have to bring this answer's score back down.
    – Aaron
    Nov 27 at 23:12










  • @Aaron: Sage Advice in general = official rulings, not rules. Though many of Crawford's answers simply reference the rules as written themselves.
    – V2Blast
    Nov 28 at 0:25










  • @Aaron Also, this question has been dramatically changed since I first answered it. So I will edit a bit to fit what it is now (which is essentially one that Molot linked to me earlier today).
    – Slagmoth
    Nov 28 at 0:32















up vote
30
down vote













The verbiage "Until Dispelled" and "Permanent" are functionally the same with regards to spell duration.



As Jeremy Crawford indicates here.




If the effect of a spell becomes permanent, it can be dispelled,
unless its description says otherwise.




Later this makes it into the official Sage Advice Compendium




Can permanent magical effects be dispelled? Or are they no longer considered magical effects once permanent?



If the effect of a spell becomes permanent, it can be dispelled, unless its description says otherwise (such as in the wall of stone spell).




So unless a spell description says otherwise it is still an effect of the spell and dispel magic ends spells.



The logic behind RAW as I see it is that dispel magic ends spells. A spell effect that becomes permanent is still an effect created by a spell, thus can be ended with dispel magic unless more specific verbiage (e.g. the text of a specific spell) states otherwise.






share|improve this answer



















  • 1




    Unfortunately, this ruling from Crawford and SA renders the point of the word permanent meaningless, and harms these high level spells. It also contradicts Crawford's, and the devs general, stance on using plain English Nov 12 The word "ally" in D&D retains its English meaning when referring to someone else: someone who cooperates with or helps you in a particular activity. A word in the rules means what it means in English, unless the rules redefine the word in some way Your answer cites SA, so it's good.
    – KorvinStarmast
    Nov 27 at 15:58












  • Your answer comes from "Save Advice" but then you say it is raw. A comment elsewhere, but Molot, says that Sage Advice is not raw. A link was provided which I cannot view (it's blocked for me): sageadvice.eu/2017/09/06/…
    – Aaron
    Nov 27 at 23:12










  • So, if that is true (SA does not equal RAW) then please edit so we don't have to bring this answer's score back down.
    – Aaron
    Nov 27 at 23:12










  • @Aaron: Sage Advice in general = official rulings, not rules. Though many of Crawford's answers simply reference the rules as written themselves.
    – V2Blast
    Nov 28 at 0:25










  • @Aaron Also, this question has been dramatically changed since I first answered it. So I will edit a bit to fit what it is now (which is essentially one that Molot linked to me earlier today).
    – Slagmoth
    Nov 28 at 0:32













up vote
30
down vote










up vote
30
down vote









The verbiage "Until Dispelled" and "Permanent" are functionally the same with regards to spell duration.



As Jeremy Crawford indicates here.




If the effect of a spell becomes permanent, it can be dispelled,
unless its description says otherwise.




Later this makes it into the official Sage Advice Compendium




Can permanent magical effects be dispelled? Or are they no longer considered magical effects once permanent?



If the effect of a spell becomes permanent, it can be dispelled, unless its description says otherwise (such as in the wall of stone spell).




So unless a spell description says otherwise it is still an effect of the spell and dispel magic ends spells.



The logic behind RAW as I see it is that dispel magic ends spells. A spell effect that becomes permanent is still an effect created by a spell, thus can be ended with dispel magic unless more specific verbiage (e.g. the text of a specific spell) states otherwise.






share|improve this answer














The verbiage "Until Dispelled" and "Permanent" are functionally the same with regards to spell duration.



As Jeremy Crawford indicates here.




If the effect of a spell becomes permanent, it can be dispelled,
unless its description says otherwise.




Later this makes it into the official Sage Advice Compendium




Can permanent magical effects be dispelled? Or are they no longer considered magical effects once permanent?



If the effect of a spell becomes permanent, it can be dispelled, unless its description says otherwise (such as in the wall of stone spell).




So unless a spell description says otherwise it is still an effect of the spell and dispel magic ends spells.



The logic behind RAW as I see it is that dispel magic ends spells. A spell effect that becomes permanent is still an effect created by a spell, thus can be ended with dispel magic unless more specific verbiage (e.g. the text of a specific spell) states otherwise.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Nov 28 at 0:35

























answered Nov 26 at 13:41









Slagmoth

16.9k14993




16.9k14993








  • 1




    Unfortunately, this ruling from Crawford and SA renders the point of the word permanent meaningless, and harms these high level spells. It also contradicts Crawford's, and the devs general, stance on using plain English Nov 12 The word "ally" in D&D retains its English meaning when referring to someone else: someone who cooperates with or helps you in a particular activity. A word in the rules means what it means in English, unless the rules redefine the word in some way Your answer cites SA, so it's good.
    – KorvinStarmast
    Nov 27 at 15:58












  • Your answer comes from "Save Advice" but then you say it is raw. A comment elsewhere, but Molot, says that Sage Advice is not raw. A link was provided which I cannot view (it's blocked for me): sageadvice.eu/2017/09/06/…
    – Aaron
    Nov 27 at 23:12










  • So, if that is true (SA does not equal RAW) then please edit so we don't have to bring this answer's score back down.
    – Aaron
    Nov 27 at 23:12










  • @Aaron: Sage Advice in general = official rulings, not rules. Though many of Crawford's answers simply reference the rules as written themselves.
    – V2Blast
    Nov 28 at 0:25










  • @Aaron Also, this question has been dramatically changed since I first answered it. So I will edit a bit to fit what it is now (which is essentially one that Molot linked to me earlier today).
    – Slagmoth
    Nov 28 at 0:32














  • 1




    Unfortunately, this ruling from Crawford and SA renders the point of the word permanent meaningless, and harms these high level spells. It also contradicts Crawford's, and the devs general, stance on using plain English Nov 12 The word "ally" in D&D retains its English meaning when referring to someone else: someone who cooperates with or helps you in a particular activity. A word in the rules means what it means in English, unless the rules redefine the word in some way Your answer cites SA, so it's good.
    – KorvinStarmast
    Nov 27 at 15:58












  • Your answer comes from "Save Advice" but then you say it is raw. A comment elsewhere, but Molot, says that Sage Advice is not raw. A link was provided which I cannot view (it's blocked for me): sageadvice.eu/2017/09/06/…
    – Aaron
    Nov 27 at 23:12










  • So, if that is true (SA does not equal RAW) then please edit so we don't have to bring this answer's score back down.
    – Aaron
    Nov 27 at 23:12










  • @Aaron: Sage Advice in general = official rulings, not rules. Though many of Crawford's answers simply reference the rules as written themselves.
    – V2Blast
    Nov 28 at 0:25










  • @Aaron Also, this question has been dramatically changed since I first answered it. So I will edit a bit to fit what it is now (which is essentially one that Molot linked to me earlier today).
    – Slagmoth
    Nov 28 at 0:32








1




1




Unfortunately, this ruling from Crawford and SA renders the point of the word permanent meaningless, and harms these high level spells. It also contradicts Crawford's, and the devs general, stance on using plain English Nov 12 The word "ally" in D&D retains its English meaning when referring to someone else: someone who cooperates with or helps you in a particular activity. A word in the rules means what it means in English, unless the rules redefine the word in some way Your answer cites SA, so it's good.
– KorvinStarmast
Nov 27 at 15:58






Unfortunately, this ruling from Crawford and SA renders the point of the word permanent meaningless, and harms these high level spells. It also contradicts Crawford's, and the devs general, stance on using plain English Nov 12 The word "ally" in D&D retains its English meaning when referring to someone else: someone who cooperates with or helps you in a particular activity. A word in the rules means what it means in English, unless the rules redefine the word in some way Your answer cites SA, so it's good.
– KorvinStarmast
Nov 27 at 15:58














Your answer comes from "Save Advice" but then you say it is raw. A comment elsewhere, but Molot, says that Sage Advice is not raw. A link was provided which I cannot view (it's blocked for me): sageadvice.eu/2017/09/06/…
– Aaron
Nov 27 at 23:12




Your answer comes from "Save Advice" but then you say it is raw. A comment elsewhere, but Molot, says that Sage Advice is not raw. A link was provided which I cannot view (it's blocked for me): sageadvice.eu/2017/09/06/…
– Aaron
Nov 27 at 23:12












So, if that is true (SA does not equal RAW) then please edit so we don't have to bring this answer's score back down.
– Aaron
Nov 27 at 23:12




So, if that is true (SA does not equal RAW) then please edit so we don't have to bring this answer's score back down.
– Aaron
Nov 27 at 23:12












@Aaron: Sage Advice in general = official rulings, not rules. Though many of Crawford's answers simply reference the rules as written themselves.
– V2Blast
Nov 28 at 0:25




@Aaron: Sage Advice in general = official rulings, not rules. Though many of Crawford's answers simply reference the rules as written themselves.
– V2Blast
Nov 28 at 0:25












@Aaron Also, this question has been dramatically changed since I first answered it. So I will edit a bit to fit what it is now (which is essentially one that Molot linked to me earlier today).
– Slagmoth
Nov 28 at 0:32




@Aaron Also, this question has been dramatically changed since I first answered it. So I will edit a bit to fit what it is now (which is essentially one that Molot linked to me earlier today).
– Slagmoth
Nov 28 at 0:32












up vote
14
down vote













No difference.



Despite being an old question, I'll have to put here the other perspective. According to JC,





  • So the durations "Until Dispelled" and "Permanent" are functionally equivalent unless we houserule one of them?

  • That's correct.




And according to Sage Advice,





  • Can permanent magical effects be dispelled? Or are they
    no longer considered magical effects once permanent?

  • If
    the effect of a spell becomes permanent, it can be dispelled,
    unless its description says otherwise (such as in the wall of
    stone
    spell).




Some spells do say "until dispelled", like Forbidance or True Polymorph, while others use the "permanent" nomenclature, like Private Sanctum. The discrepancy is strange, but it may have been an oversight from the designers. I think the idea is that, any magical effect created by a spell can be dispelled, thus falling in line with Dispel Magic's text.




Choose any creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell [...] on the target ends.




There are no assumptions regarding the duration of the effect, only that its spell (and thus effect) is terminated. Also consider spells like Wall of Stone, that claim




If you maintain your concentration on this spell for its whole duration, the wall becomes permanent and can’t be dispelled.




So, despite being permanent, they specify how they can't be dispelled. This seems another indication that permanent just means "infinite duration".





As a DM, maybe you can house-rule it so that it is much harder (or even impossible) to dispel permanent effects (similar to Artifact magical items), but at least according to the designers, it seems that, as you asked, there is no difference between "until dispelled" and "permanent".






share|improve this answer























  • Some spells do say "until dispelled", like Forbidance or True Polymorph, while others use the "permanent" nomenclature, like Private Sanctum. The discrepancy is strange, but it may have been an oversight from the designers. It is absolutely amazing that WotC can put out both mtg, a game with an extremely tight set of rules, and DnD, which is so very much the opposite. They use ambiguous / synonymous terms, when it gets pointed out that it is confusing they only errata it some of the time. Absolute Insanity!
    – Shane
    2 days ago















up vote
14
down vote













No difference.



Despite being an old question, I'll have to put here the other perspective. According to JC,





  • So the durations "Until Dispelled" and "Permanent" are functionally equivalent unless we houserule one of them?

  • That's correct.




And according to Sage Advice,





  • Can permanent magical effects be dispelled? Or are they
    no longer considered magical effects once permanent?

  • If
    the effect of a spell becomes permanent, it can be dispelled,
    unless its description says otherwise (such as in the wall of
    stone
    spell).




Some spells do say "until dispelled", like Forbidance or True Polymorph, while others use the "permanent" nomenclature, like Private Sanctum. The discrepancy is strange, but it may have been an oversight from the designers. I think the idea is that, any magical effect created by a spell can be dispelled, thus falling in line with Dispel Magic's text.




Choose any creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell [...] on the target ends.




There are no assumptions regarding the duration of the effect, only that its spell (and thus effect) is terminated. Also consider spells like Wall of Stone, that claim




If you maintain your concentration on this spell for its whole duration, the wall becomes permanent and can’t be dispelled.




So, despite being permanent, they specify how they can't be dispelled. This seems another indication that permanent just means "infinite duration".





As a DM, maybe you can house-rule it so that it is much harder (or even impossible) to dispel permanent effects (similar to Artifact magical items), but at least according to the designers, it seems that, as you asked, there is no difference between "until dispelled" and "permanent".






share|improve this answer























  • Some spells do say "until dispelled", like Forbidance or True Polymorph, while others use the "permanent" nomenclature, like Private Sanctum. The discrepancy is strange, but it may have been an oversight from the designers. It is absolutely amazing that WotC can put out both mtg, a game with an extremely tight set of rules, and DnD, which is so very much the opposite. They use ambiguous / synonymous terms, when it gets pointed out that it is confusing they only errata it some of the time. Absolute Insanity!
    – Shane
    2 days ago













up vote
14
down vote










up vote
14
down vote









No difference.



Despite being an old question, I'll have to put here the other perspective. According to JC,





  • So the durations "Until Dispelled" and "Permanent" are functionally equivalent unless we houserule one of them?

  • That's correct.




And according to Sage Advice,





  • Can permanent magical effects be dispelled? Or are they
    no longer considered magical effects once permanent?

  • If
    the effect of a spell becomes permanent, it can be dispelled,
    unless its description says otherwise (such as in the wall of
    stone
    spell).




Some spells do say "until dispelled", like Forbidance or True Polymorph, while others use the "permanent" nomenclature, like Private Sanctum. The discrepancy is strange, but it may have been an oversight from the designers. I think the idea is that, any magical effect created by a spell can be dispelled, thus falling in line with Dispel Magic's text.




Choose any creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell [...] on the target ends.




There are no assumptions regarding the duration of the effect, only that its spell (and thus effect) is terminated. Also consider spells like Wall of Stone, that claim




If you maintain your concentration on this spell for its whole duration, the wall becomes permanent and can’t be dispelled.




So, despite being permanent, they specify how they can't be dispelled. This seems another indication that permanent just means "infinite duration".





As a DM, maybe you can house-rule it so that it is much harder (or even impossible) to dispel permanent effects (similar to Artifact magical items), but at least according to the designers, it seems that, as you asked, there is no difference between "until dispelled" and "permanent".






share|improve this answer














No difference.



Despite being an old question, I'll have to put here the other perspective. According to JC,





  • So the durations "Until Dispelled" and "Permanent" are functionally equivalent unless we houserule one of them?

  • That's correct.




And according to Sage Advice,





  • Can permanent magical effects be dispelled? Or are they
    no longer considered magical effects once permanent?

  • If
    the effect of a spell becomes permanent, it can be dispelled,
    unless its description says otherwise (such as in the wall of
    stone
    spell).




Some spells do say "until dispelled", like Forbidance or True Polymorph, while others use the "permanent" nomenclature, like Private Sanctum. The discrepancy is strange, but it may have been an oversight from the designers. I think the idea is that, any magical effect created by a spell can be dispelled, thus falling in line with Dispel Magic's text.




Choose any creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell [...] on the target ends.




There are no assumptions regarding the duration of the effect, only that its spell (and thus effect) is terminated. Also consider spells like Wall of Stone, that claim




If you maintain your concentration on this spell for its whole duration, the wall becomes permanent and can’t be dispelled.




So, despite being permanent, they specify how they can't be dispelled. This seems another indication that permanent just means "infinite duration".





As a DM, maybe you can house-rule it so that it is much harder (or even impossible) to dispel permanent effects (similar to Artifact magical items), but at least according to the designers, it seems that, as you asked, there is no difference between "until dispelled" and "permanent".







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Nov 27 at 13:43









Slagmoth

16.9k14993




16.9k14993










answered Nov 27 at 13:26









BlueMoon93

11.7k963125




11.7k963125












  • Some spells do say "until dispelled", like Forbidance or True Polymorph, while others use the "permanent" nomenclature, like Private Sanctum. The discrepancy is strange, but it may have been an oversight from the designers. It is absolutely amazing that WotC can put out both mtg, a game with an extremely tight set of rules, and DnD, which is so very much the opposite. They use ambiguous / synonymous terms, when it gets pointed out that it is confusing they only errata it some of the time. Absolute Insanity!
    – Shane
    2 days ago


















  • Some spells do say "until dispelled", like Forbidance or True Polymorph, while others use the "permanent" nomenclature, like Private Sanctum. The discrepancy is strange, but it may have been an oversight from the designers. It is absolutely amazing that WotC can put out both mtg, a game with an extremely tight set of rules, and DnD, which is so very much the opposite. They use ambiguous / synonymous terms, when it gets pointed out that it is confusing they only errata it some of the time. Absolute Insanity!
    – Shane
    2 days ago
















Some spells do say "until dispelled", like Forbidance or True Polymorph, while others use the "permanent" nomenclature, like Private Sanctum. The discrepancy is strange, but it may have been an oversight from the designers. It is absolutely amazing that WotC can put out both mtg, a game with an extremely tight set of rules, and DnD, which is so very much the opposite. They use ambiguous / synonymous terms, when it gets pointed out that it is confusing they only errata it some of the time. Absolute Insanity!
– Shane
2 days ago




Some spells do say "until dispelled", like Forbidance or True Polymorph, while others use the "permanent" nomenclature, like Private Sanctum. The discrepancy is strange, but it may have been an oversight from the designers. It is absolutely amazing that WotC can put out both mtg, a game with an extremely tight set of rules, and DnD, which is so very much the opposite. They use ambiguous / synonymous terms, when it gets pointed out that it is confusing they only errata it some of the time. Absolute Insanity!
– Shane
2 days ago










up vote
9
down vote













RAW, yes it can be dispelled.



A Teleportation Circle would be a magical effect (it is the effect of a spell, after all). There is nothing in the spell description that says making it permanent changes this.



And Dispel Magic specifically says it can target a magical effect as you point out.



So this would work.



On the other hand, it seems a bit harsh for a year of work to be cancelled out by a single casting of Dispel Magic! As a DM I might declare that a Teleportation Circle made permanent is now a magic item rather than a magic effect and therefore not affected by Dispel Magic (or possibly only temporarily suppressible). But this would be a homebrew ruling.






share|improve this answer





















  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – mxyzplk
    2 days ago















up vote
9
down vote













RAW, yes it can be dispelled.



A Teleportation Circle would be a magical effect (it is the effect of a spell, after all). There is nothing in the spell description that says making it permanent changes this.



And Dispel Magic specifically says it can target a magical effect as you point out.



So this would work.



On the other hand, it seems a bit harsh for a year of work to be cancelled out by a single casting of Dispel Magic! As a DM I might declare that a Teleportation Circle made permanent is now a magic item rather than a magic effect and therefore not affected by Dispel Magic (or possibly only temporarily suppressible). But this would be a homebrew ruling.






share|improve this answer





















  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – mxyzplk
    2 days ago













up vote
9
down vote










up vote
9
down vote









RAW, yes it can be dispelled.



A Teleportation Circle would be a magical effect (it is the effect of a spell, after all). There is nothing in the spell description that says making it permanent changes this.



And Dispel Magic specifically says it can target a magical effect as you point out.



So this would work.



On the other hand, it seems a bit harsh for a year of work to be cancelled out by a single casting of Dispel Magic! As a DM I might declare that a Teleportation Circle made permanent is now a magic item rather than a magic effect and therefore not affected by Dispel Magic (or possibly only temporarily suppressible). But this would be a homebrew ruling.






share|improve this answer












RAW, yes it can be dispelled.



A Teleportation Circle would be a magical effect (it is the effect of a spell, after all). There is nothing in the spell description that says making it permanent changes this.



And Dispel Magic specifically says it can target a magical effect as you point out.



So this would work.



On the other hand, it seems a bit harsh for a year of work to be cancelled out by a single casting of Dispel Magic! As a DM I might declare that a Teleportation Circle made permanent is now a magic item rather than a magic effect and therefore not affected by Dispel Magic (or possibly only temporarily suppressible). But this would be a homebrew ruling.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered Nov 26 at 13:44









PJRZ

6,8831538




6,8831538












  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – mxyzplk
    2 days ago


















  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – mxyzplk
    2 days ago
















Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– mxyzplk
2 days ago




Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– mxyzplk
2 days ago










up vote
1
down vote













A teleportation circle is the effect of a spell.



Effects of spells are magical effects.



So you can dispel a teleportation circle; the DC is 15. Arguably the wizard could cast the last teleportation circle at a higher level to boost the DC slightly.



However, it is worse than that.




Many major temples, guilds, and other important places have permanent teleportation circles inscribed somewhere within their confines. Each such circle includes a unique sigil sequence--a string of magical runes arranged in a particular pattern.




A permanent teleportation circle must have a unique sigil sequence -- a string of magical runes arranged in a particular pattern -- inscribed somewhere within their confines.



Thus, if you remove the unique sigil sequence, there is no teleportation circle there anymore. Whatever material the circle is inscribed on can be vandalized and the circle destroyed.



(Permanent Teleportation Circle) implies (Sigils Inscribed), thus not (Sigils Inscribed) implies not (Permanent Teleportation Circle). So either destroying the Sigils destroys the Circle, or the Sigils cannot be destroyed (which seems to be stretching things).



So Dispel Magic is just slightly faster than a mundane with a pickaxe.



The question the destroyer has to ask is, do they want to destroy a wizard-year of work and almost 20k of components invested? Or do they want to learn another destination.






share|improve this answer























  • @aaron (a=>b)<=>(not b=>not a) is true. You are mistaking it for something else probably; I suspect (a=>b) and not a=>not b, which are not equivalent. Swaping sides of an implication and negating both sides is truth preserving; negating both sides is not truth preserving, swapping is not truth preserving. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraposition is the "logic" word for it; I can also provide truth tables upon request.
    – Yakk
    Nov 28 at 2:23












  • Oops, you are correct and I was mistaking it for a different rule. Sorry to have bothered you. I have deleted my false claim.
    – Aaron
    2 days ago















up vote
1
down vote













A teleportation circle is the effect of a spell.



Effects of spells are magical effects.



So you can dispel a teleportation circle; the DC is 15. Arguably the wizard could cast the last teleportation circle at a higher level to boost the DC slightly.



However, it is worse than that.




Many major temples, guilds, and other important places have permanent teleportation circles inscribed somewhere within their confines. Each such circle includes a unique sigil sequence--a string of magical runes arranged in a particular pattern.




A permanent teleportation circle must have a unique sigil sequence -- a string of magical runes arranged in a particular pattern -- inscribed somewhere within their confines.



Thus, if you remove the unique sigil sequence, there is no teleportation circle there anymore. Whatever material the circle is inscribed on can be vandalized and the circle destroyed.



(Permanent Teleportation Circle) implies (Sigils Inscribed), thus not (Sigils Inscribed) implies not (Permanent Teleportation Circle). So either destroying the Sigils destroys the Circle, or the Sigils cannot be destroyed (which seems to be stretching things).



So Dispel Magic is just slightly faster than a mundane with a pickaxe.



The question the destroyer has to ask is, do they want to destroy a wizard-year of work and almost 20k of components invested? Or do they want to learn another destination.






share|improve this answer























  • @aaron (a=>b)<=>(not b=>not a) is true. You are mistaking it for something else probably; I suspect (a=>b) and not a=>not b, which are not equivalent. Swaping sides of an implication and negating both sides is truth preserving; negating both sides is not truth preserving, swapping is not truth preserving. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraposition is the "logic" word for it; I can also provide truth tables upon request.
    – Yakk
    Nov 28 at 2:23












  • Oops, you are correct and I was mistaking it for a different rule. Sorry to have bothered you. I have deleted my false claim.
    – Aaron
    2 days ago













up vote
1
down vote










up vote
1
down vote









A teleportation circle is the effect of a spell.



Effects of spells are magical effects.



So you can dispel a teleportation circle; the DC is 15. Arguably the wizard could cast the last teleportation circle at a higher level to boost the DC slightly.



However, it is worse than that.




Many major temples, guilds, and other important places have permanent teleportation circles inscribed somewhere within their confines. Each such circle includes a unique sigil sequence--a string of magical runes arranged in a particular pattern.




A permanent teleportation circle must have a unique sigil sequence -- a string of magical runes arranged in a particular pattern -- inscribed somewhere within their confines.



Thus, if you remove the unique sigil sequence, there is no teleportation circle there anymore. Whatever material the circle is inscribed on can be vandalized and the circle destroyed.



(Permanent Teleportation Circle) implies (Sigils Inscribed), thus not (Sigils Inscribed) implies not (Permanent Teleportation Circle). So either destroying the Sigils destroys the Circle, or the Sigils cannot be destroyed (which seems to be stretching things).



So Dispel Magic is just slightly faster than a mundane with a pickaxe.



The question the destroyer has to ask is, do they want to destroy a wizard-year of work and almost 20k of components invested? Or do they want to learn another destination.






share|improve this answer














A teleportation circle is the effect of a spell.



Effects of spells are magical effects.



So you can dispel a teleportation circle; the DC is 15. Arguably the wizard could cast the last teleportation circle at a higher level to boost the DC slightly.



However, it is worse than that.




Many major temples, guilds, and other important places have permanent teleportation circles inscribed somewhere within their confines. Each such circle includes a unique sigil sequence--a string of magical runes arranged in a particular pattern.




A permanent teleportation circle must have a unique sigil sequence -- a string of magical runes arranged in a particular pattern -- inscribed somewhere within their confines.



Thus, if you remove the unique sigil sequence, there is no teleportation circle there anymore. Whatever material the circle is inscribed on can be vandalized and the circle destroyed.



(Permanent Teleportation Circle) implies (Sigils Inscribed), thus not (Sigils Inscribed) implies not (Permanent Teleportation Circle). So either destroying the Sigils destroys the Circle, or the Sigils cannot be destroyed (which seems to be stretching things).



So Dispel Magic is just slightly faster than a mundane with a pickaxe.



The question the destroyer has to ask is, do they want to destroy a wizard-year of work and almost 20k of components invested? Or do they want to learn another destination.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Nov 27 at 18:51

























answered Nov 27 at 4:08









Yakk

6,5821039




6,5821039












  • @aaron (a=>b)<=>(not b=>not a) is true. You are mistaking it for something else probably; I suspect (a=>b) and not a=>not b, which are not equivalent. Swaping sides of an implication and negating both sides is truth preserving; negating both sides is not truth preserving, swapping is not truth preserving. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraposition is the "logic" word for it; I can also provide truth tables upon request.
    – Yakk
    Nov 28 at 2:23












  • Oops, you are correct and I was mistaking it for a different rule. Sorry to have bothered you. I have deleted my false claim.
    – Aaron
    2 days ago


















  • @aaron (a=>b)<=>(not b=>not a) is true. You are mistaking it for something else probably; I suspect (a=>b) and not a=>not b, which are not equivalent. Swaping sides of an implication and negating both sides is truth preserving; negating both sides is not truth preserving, swapping is not truth preserving. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraposition is the "logic" word for it; I can also provide truth tables upon request.
    – Yakk
    Nov 28 at 2:23












  • Oops, you are correct and I was mistaking it for a different rule. Sorry to have bothered you. I have deleted my false claim.
    – Aaron
    2 days ago
















@aaron (a=>b)<=>(not b=>not a) is true. You are mistaking it for something else probably; I suspect (a=>b) and not a=>not b, which are not equivalent. Swaping sides of an implication and negating both sides is truth preserving; negating both sides is not truth preserving, swapping is not truth preserving. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraposition is the "logic" word for it; I can also provide truth tables upon request.
– Yakk
Nov 28 at 2:23






@aaron (a=>b)<=>(not b=>not a) is true. You are mistaking it for something else probably; I suspect (a=>b) and not a=>not b, which are not equivalent. Swaping sides of an implication and negating both sides is truth preserving; negating both sides is not truth preserving, swapping is not truth preserving. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraposition is the "logic" word for it; I can also provide truth tables upon request.
– Yakk
Nov 28 at 2:23














Oops, you are correct and I was mistaking it for a different rule. Sorry to have bothered you. I have deleted my false claim.
– Aaron
2 days ago




Oops, you are correct and I was mistaking it for a different rule. Sorry to have bothered you. I have deleted my false claim.
– Aaron
2 days ago










up vote
-1
down vote













I'm not sure how accurate my interpretation is, but I'd argue a permanent teleportation circle is not a magical effect any more than someone's death due to Power Word Kill is, and thus unless Dispel Magic could resurrect someone killed with Power Word Kill, I'd argue a permanent teleportation circle can't be dispelled either.



I have to disagree that the duration is permanent. The spell's duration is 1 round/6 seconds. The wording of the spell says you can "create a permanent teleportation circle", rather than extend the duration of anything. I'd argue that a "Permanent Teleportation Circle" is a completely separate thing from a Teleportation Circle, and that there's no magic holding one in place. I believe it to be more simply like a marker, perhaps a "dent" in the Weave so to speak. It doesn't teleport anything; rather, a normal Teleportation Circle does. A permanent circle simply serves as a marker for the spell to "lock on" to. The magic lasts 6 seconds each time the spell is used, but beyond that what is left is not a magical effect in my interpretation.






share|improve this answer























  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – mxyzplk
    2 days ago















up vote
-1
down vote













I'm not sure how accurate my interpretation is, but I'd argue a permanent teleportation circle is not a magical effect any more than someone's death due to Power Word Kill is, and thus unless Dispel Magic could resurrect someone killed with Power Word Kill, I'd argue a permanent teleportation circle can't be dispelled either.



I have to disagree that the duration is permanent. The spell's duration is 1 round/6 seconds. The wording of the spell says you can "create a permanent teleportation circle", rather than extend the duration of anything. I'd argue that a "Permanent Teleportation Circle" is a completely separate thing from a Teleportation Circle, and that there's no magic holding one in place. I believe it to be more simply like a marker, perhaps a "dent" in the Weave so to speak. It doesn't teleport anything; rather, a normal Teleportation Circle does. A permanent circle simply serves as a marker for the spell to "lock on" to. The magic lasts 6 seconds each time the spell is used, but beyond that what is left is not a magical effect in my interpretation.






share|improve this answer























  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – mxyzplk
    2 days ago













up vote
-1
down vote










up vote
-1
down vote









I'm not sure how accurate my interpretation is, but I'd argue a permanent teleportation circle is not a magical effect any more than someone's death due to Power Word Kill is, and thus unless Dispel Magic could resurrect someone killed with Power Word Kill, I'd argue a permanent teleportation circle can't be dispelled either.



I have to disagree that the duration is permanent. The spell's duration is 1 round/6 seconds. The wording of the spell says you can "create a permanent teleportation circle", rather than extend the duration of anything. I'd argue that a "Permanent Teleportation Circle" is a completely separate thing from a Teleportation Circle, and that there's no magic holding one in place. I believe it to be more simply like a marker, perhaps a "dent" in the Weave so to speak. It doesn't teleport anything; rather, a normal Teleportation Circle does. A permanent circle simply serves as a marker for the spell to "lock on" to. The magic lasts 6 seconds each time the spell is used, but beyond that what is left is not a magical effect in my interpretation.






share|improve this answer














I'm not sure how accurate my interpretation is, but I'd argue a permanent teleportation circle is not a magical effect any more than someone's death due to Power Word Kill is, and thus unless Dispel Magic could resurrect someone killed with Power Word Kill, I'd argue a permanent teleportation circle can't be dispelled either.



I have to disagree that the duration is permanent. The spell's duration is 1 round/6 seconds. The wording of the spell says you can "create a permanent teleportation circle", rather than extend the duration of anything. I'd argue that a "Permanent Teleportation Circle" is a completely separate thing from a Teleportation Circle, and that there's no magic holding one in place. I believe it to be more simply like a marker, perhaps a "dent" in the Weave so to speak. It doesn't teleport anything; rather, a normal Teleportation Circle does. A permanent circle simply serves as a marker for the spell to "lock on" to. The magic lasts 6 seconds each time the spell is used, but beyond that what is left is not a magical effect in my interpretation.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Nov 26 at 18:35

























answered Nov 26 at 17:48









Duncan X Simpson

1825




1825












  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – mxyzplk
    2 days ago


















  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – mxyzplk
    2 days ago
















Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– mxyzplk
2 days ago




Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– mxyzplk
2 days ago










up vote
-6
down vote













Unfortunately to the best of my knowledge this isn't specified in any detail in the books. However, the language itself isn't meant to hide anything so:



"Until Dispelled" means that the caster retains some hold on the magic after its been cast, and can still dispel it at any time. At the same time, however, the spell does not require active concentration once cast, so the caster can do anything else he wishes while the spell is in effect.



"Permanent" however, means that once cast, the caster cannot simply turn it off. The Permanent duration bestows no special resistance to dispelling however, but even the caster would need to cast a spell halt the effect.



As always with 5th edition, YMMV.






share|improve this answer

















  • 1




    I wasn't aware that casters could dispel their own spells at will, unless the spell required concentration. Could you give a citation for that?
    – Strill
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:23












  • Fire Shield, among other spells with durations, lists that it can be dismissed before its 10-minute duration is up. However, as I stated in my first paragraph the is no specific definition of "Until Dispelled" in the books. Most games I've played in, the assumption was the caster could always end his own spells early. But again YMMV.
    – Brian_Drozd
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:41












  • Guards and Wards, Mordekainen's Private Sanctum, Nystul's Magic Aura, and Teleportation Circle all have increased duration if you cast them in the same location repeatedly.
    – Strill
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:43

















up vote
-6
down vote













Unfortunately to the best of my knowledge this isn't specified in any detail in the books. However, the language itself isn't meant to hide anything so:



"Until Dispelled" means that the caster retains some hold on the magic after its been cast, and can still dispel it at any time. At the same time, however, the spell does not require active concentration once cast, so the caster can do anything else he wishes while the spell is in effect.



"Permanent" however, means that once cast, the caster cannot simply turn it off. The Permanent duration bestows no special resistance to dispelling however, but even the caster would need to cast a spell halt the effect.



As always with 5th edition, YMMV.






share|improve this answer

















  • 1




    I wasn't aware that casters could dispel their own spells at will, unless the spell required concentration. Could you give a citation for that?
    – Strill
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:23












  • Fire Shield, among other spells with durations, lists that it can be dismissed before its 10-minute duration is up. However, as I stated in my first paragraph the is no specific definition of "Until Dispelled" in the books. Most games I've played in, the assumption was the caster could always end his own spells early. But again YMMV.
    – Brian_Drozd
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:41












  • Guards and Wards, Mordekainen's Private Sanctum, Nystul's Magic Aura, and Teleportation Circle all have increased duration if you cast them in the same location repeatedly.
    – Strill
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:43















up vote
-6
down vote










up vote
-6
down vote









Unfortunately to the best of my knowledge this isn't specified in any detail in the books. However, the language itself isn't meant to hide anything so:



"Until Dispelled" means that the caster retains some hold on the magic after its been cast, and can still dispel it at any time. At the same time, however, the spell does not require active concentration once cast, so the caster can do anything else he wishes while the spell is in effect.



"Permanent" however, means that once cast, the caster cannot simply turn it off. The Permanent duration bestows no special resistance to dispelling however, but even the caster would need to cast a spell halt the effect.



As always with 5th edition, YMMV.






share|improve this answer












Unfortunately to the best of my knowledge this isn't specified in any detail in the books. However, the language itself isn't meant to hide anything so:



"Until Dispelled" means that the caster retains some hold on the magic after its been cast, and can still dispel it at any time. At the same time, however, the spell does not require active concentration once cast, so the caster can do anything else he wishes while the spell is in effect.



"Permanent" however, means that once cast, the caster cannot simply turn it off. The Permanent duration bestows no special resistance to dispelling however, but even the caster would need to cast a spell halt the effect.



As always with 5th edition, YMMV.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered Sep 11 '15 at 2:17









Brian_Drozd

2,4871720




2,4871720








  • 1




    I wasn't aware that casters could dispel their own spells at will, unless the spell required concentration. Could you give a citation for that?
    – Strill
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:23












  • Fire Shield, among other spells with durations, lists that it can be dismissed before its 10-minute duration is up. However, as I stated in my first paragraph the is no specific definition of "Until Dispelled" in the books. Most games I've played in, the assumption was the caster could always end his own spells early. But again YMMV.
    – Brian_Drozd
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:41












  • Guards and Wards, Mordekainen's Private Sanctum, Nystul's Magic Aura, and Teleportation Circle all have increased duration if you cast them in the same location repeatedly.
    – Strill
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:43
















  • 1




    I wasn't aware that casters could dispel their own spells at will, unless the spell required concentration. Could you give a citation for that?
    – Strill
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:23












  • Fire Shield, among other spells with durations, lists that it can be dismissed before its 10-minute duration is up. However, as I stated in my first paragraph the is no specific definition of "Until Dispelled" in the books. Most games I've played in, the assumption was the caster could always end his own spells early. But again YMMV.
    – Brian_Drozd
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:41












  • Guards and Wards, Mordekainen's Private Sanctum, Nystul's Magic Aura, and Teleportation Circle all have increased duration if you cast them in the same location repeatedly.
    – Strill
    Sep 11 '15 at 2:43










1




1




I wasn't aware that casters could dispel their own spells at will, unless the spell required concentration. Could you give a citation for that?
– Strill
Sep 11 '15 at 2:23






I wasn't aware that casters could dispel their own spells at will, unless the spell required concentration. Could you give a citation for that?
– Strill
Sep 11 '15 at 2:23














Fire Shield, among other spells with durations, lists that it can be dismissed before its 10-minute duration is up. However, as I stated in my first paragraph the is no specific definition of "Until Dispelled" in the books. Most games I've played in, the assumption was the caster could always end his own spells early. But again YMMV.
– Brian_Drozd
Sep 11 '15 at 2:41






Fire Shield, among other spells with durations, lists that it can be dismissed before its 10-minute duration is up. However, as I stated in my first paragraph the is no specific definition of "Until Dispelled" in the books. Most games I've played in, the assumption was the caster could always end his own spells early. But again YMMV.
– Brian_Drozd
Sep 11 '15 at 2:41














Guards and Wards, Mordekainen's Private Sanctum, Nystul's Magic Aura, and Teleportation Circle all have increased duration if you cast them in the same location repeatedly.
– Strill
Sep 11 '15 at 2:43






Guards and Wards, Mordekainen's Private Sanctum, Nystul's Magic Aura, and Teleportation Circle all have increased duration if you cast them in the same location repeatedly.
– Strill
Sep 11 '15 at 2:43




















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