Proving $(bf xtimes ycdot N) z+(ytimes zcdot N) x+(ztimes x cdot N) y= 0$ when $bf x,y,z$ are coplanar and...












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Prove that if $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z} in mathbb{R}^3$ are coplanar vectors and $mathbf{N}$ is a unit normal vector to the plane then $$(mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y}=mathbf{0}.$$




This is an elementary identity involving cross products which is used in the proof of the Gauss-Bonnet Theorem and whose proof was left as an exercise. I've tried it unsuccessfully. Initially I tried writing $mathbf{N}=frac{mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}}{| mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}|}=frac{mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}}{| mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}|}=frac{mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}}{| mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}|}$ and substituting into the equation to get $| mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}|z +| mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}|mathbf{x}+| mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}|mathbf{y}=mathbf{0}$ but then I realised these terms are only correct up to $pm$ signs. You could write the norms in terms of sines of angles and divide by norms to get unit vectors with coefficients $sintheta,sinpsi,sin(theta+psi)$ (or $2pi -(theta+psi)$ I suppose) but I don't know what to do from there, especially when the terms are only correct up to sign. Any hints how to prove this identity? Perhaps there is a clever trick to it but I can't see it. Edit: Maybe writing $mathbf{z}=lambdamathbf{x}+mumathbf{y}$ will help.










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  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What does $x times y cdot N$ mean? Dot product $(x times y) cdot N$ ?
    $endgroup$
    – Widawensen
    yesterday








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    @Widawensen Yes, what else could it mean?
    $endgroup$
    – Marc van Leeuwen
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @MarcvanLeeuwen: that could mean a badly written problem. That happens here sometimes.
    $endgroup$
    – Taladris
    yesterday
















8












$begingroup$



Prove that if $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z} in mathbb{R}^3$ are coplanar vectors and $mathbf{N}$ is a unit normal vector to the plane then $$(mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y}=mathbf{0}.$$




This is an elementary identity involving cross products which is used in the proof of the Gauss-Bonnet Theorem and whose proof was left as an exercise. I've tried it unsuccessfully. Initially I tried writing $mathbf{N}=frac{mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}}{| mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}|}=frac{mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}}{| mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}|}=frac{mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}}{| mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}|}$ and substituting into the equation to get $| mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}|z +| mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}|mathbf{x}+| mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}|mathbf{y}=mathbf{0}$ but then I realised these terms are only correct up to $pm$ signs. You could write the norms in terms of sines of angles and divide by norms to get unit vectors with coefficients $sintheta,sinpsi,sin(theta+psi)$ (or $2pi -(theta+psi)$ I suppose) but I don't know what to do from there, especially when the terms are only correct up to sign. Any hints how to prove this identity? Perhaps there is a clever trick to it but I can't see it. Edit: Maybe writing $mathbf{z}=lambdamathbf{x}+mumathbf{y}$ will help.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What does $x times y cdot N$ mean? Dot product $(x times y) cdot N$ ?
    $endgroup$
    – Widawensen
    yesterday








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    @Widawensen Yes, what else could it mean?
    $endgroup$
    – Marc van Leeuwen
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @MarcvanLeeuwen: that could mean a badly written problem. That happens here sometimes.
    $endgroup$
    – Taladris
    yesterday














8












8








8





$begingroup$



Prove that if $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z} in mathbb{R}^3$ are coplanar vectors and $mathbf{N}$ is a unit normal vector to the plane then $$(mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y}=mathbf{0}.$$




This is an elementary identity involving cross products which is used in the proof of the Gauss-Bonnet Theorem and whose proof was left as an exercise. I've tried it unsuccessfully. Initially I tried writing $mathbf{N}=frac{mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}}{| mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}|}=frac{mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}}{| mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}|}=frac{mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}}{| mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}|}$ and substituting into the equation to get $| mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}|z +| mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}|mathbf{x}+| mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}|mathbf{y}=mathbf{0}$ but then I realised these terms are only correct up to $pm$ signs. You could write the norms in terms of sines of angles and divide by norms to get unit vectors with coefficients $sintheta,sinpsi,sin(theta+psi)$ (or $2pi -(theta+psi)$ I suppose) but I don't know what to do from there, especially when the terms are only correct up to sign. Any hints how to prove this identity? Perhaps there is a clever trick to it but I can't see it. Edit: Maybe writing $mathbf{z}=lambdamathbf{x}+mumathbf{y}$ will help.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$





Prove that if $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z} in mathbb{R}^3$ are coplanar vectors and $mathbf{N}$ is a unit normal vector to the plane then $$(mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y}=mathbf{0}.$$




This is an elementary identity involving cross products which is used in the proof of the Gauss-Bonnet Theorem and whose proof was left as an exercise. I've tried it unsuccessfully. Initially I tried writing $mathbf{N}=frac{mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}}{| mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}|}=frac{mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}}{| mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}|}=frac{mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}}{| mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}|}$ and substituting into the equation to get $| mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}|z +| mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}|mathbf{x}+| mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}|mathbf{y}=mathbf{0}$ but then I realised these terms are only correct up to $pm$ signs. You could write the norms in terms of sines of angles and divide by norms to get unit vectors with coefficients $sintheta,sinpsi,sin(theta+psi)$ (or $2pi -(theta+psi)$ I suppose) but I don't know what to do from there, especially when the terms are only correct up to sign. Any hints how to prove this identity? Perhaps there is a clever trick to it but I can't see it. Edit: Maybe writing $mathbf{z}=lambdamathbf{x}+mumathbf{y}$ will help.







linear-algebra vectors cross-product






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edited 19 hours ago









Asaf Karagila

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306k33438769










asked yesterday









AlephNullAlephNull

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  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What does $x times y cdot N$ mean? Dot product $(x times y) cdot N$ ?
    $endgroup$
    – Widawensen
    yesterday








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    @Widawensen Yes, what else could it mean?
    $endgroup$
    – Marc van Leeuwen
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @MarcvanLeeuwen: that could mean a badly written problem. That happens here sometimes.
    $endgroup$
    – Taladris
    yesterday














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    What does $x times y cdot N$ mean? Dot product $(x times y) cdot N$ ?
    $endgroup$
    – Widawensen
    yesterday








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    @Widawensen Yes, what else could it mean?
    $endgroup$
    – Marc van Leeuwen
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @MarcvanLeeuwen: that could mean a badly written problem. That happens here sometimes.
    $endgroup$
    – Taladris
    yesterday








1




1




$begingroup$
What does $x times y cdot N$ mean? Dot product $(x times y) cdot N$ ?
$endgroup$
– Widawensen
yesterday






$begingroup$
What does $x times y cdot N$ mean? Dot product $(x times y) cdot N$ ?
$endgroup$
– Widawensen
yesterday






4




4




$begingroup$
@Widawensen Yes, what else could it mean?
$endgroup$
– Marc van Leeuwen
yesterday




$begingroup$
@Widawensen Yes, what else could it mean?
$endgroup$
– Marc van Leeuwen
yesterday




1




1




$begingroup$
@MarcvanLeeuwen: that could mean a badly written problem. That happens here sometimes.
$endgroup$
– Taladris
yesterday




$begingroup$
@MarcvanLeeuwen: that could mean a badly written problem. That happens here sometimes.
$endgroup$
– Taladris
yesterday










6 Answers
6






active

oldest

votes


















9












$begingroup$

Here's an observation: If $Q$ is a rotation matrix, then
$$
(Qx) times (Qy) = Q(x times y)
$$



You have to prove that, of course, but it's not too tough. Similarly,
$$
(Qx) cdot (Qy) = x cdot y
$$

and, for a scalar $alpha$, we have
$$
Q (alpha x) = alpha (Q x)
$$



Now suppose that for some vector $v$, we have
$$
(mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y}=mathbf{v}.
$$



Key idea 1: You can apply the rules above to show that for any rotation matrix $Q$, you can apply $Q$ to all the elements on the left to get $Qv$.



Key idea 2: You can choose $Q$ so that it takes $N$ to the vector $(0,0,1)$, and puts $x, y,$ and $z$ into the plane consisting of vectors of the form $(a, b, 0)$. And in that plane, it's easy to see that you get $0$, so $Qv = 0$. Hence $v = 0$, and you're done.



In short: by a change of basis, you can assume that $N$ is the vector $(0,0,1)$ and that the other vectors all lie in the $(a, b, 0)$ plane, and things get easy.






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  • $begingroup$
    Ah so it is a clever approach with orthogonal matrices. I'm familiar with those identities. But I don't see how $Qv=0$. I can't see how we apply anything other than the third identity $Q(alpha x)=alpha (Qx)$.
    $endgroup$
    – AlephNull
    yesterday












  • $begingroup$
    Oh I see, you're talking about the elements, not the terms. I understand the solution now.
    $endgroup$
    – AlephNull
    yesterday








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    By the way, there's a general principle at work here, much loved by physicists, but worth remembering even if that's not your domain: "find the right coordinate system for your problem." (The math version is mostly "choose the right basis/generating set/...")
    $endgroup$
    – John Hughes
    yesterday



















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If what is required is only to prove the validity of the given identity, there is another approach. Observe that if $x$ and $y$ are linearly dependent, i.e. for some $c$, $x=c y$ or $y=c x$, then the identity holds trivially because $wtimes v =-(vtimes w)$ and $v times v=0$ for all $v,w$. Thus, we may assume $x$ and $y$ are linearly independent and hence $z$ is a linear combination of $x$ and $y$, that is, $z=ax+by$ for some $a,b$. Now, since the given identity is linear in each variable and it holds for both $z=x$ and $z=y$, it is also true for $z=ax+by$. This proves the identity. It can be also noted that $N$ being perpendicular to the plane containing $x,y,z$ plays no role in this proof.






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  • 2




    $begingroup$
    very nice solution!
    $endgroup$
    – John Hughes
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    Indeed, this is very elegant. So my last remark had some significance!
    $endgroup$
    – AlephNull
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    Thank you both :-)
    $endgroup$
    – Song
    21 hours ago



















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Writing $x=ahat{i}+bhat{j},,y=chat{i}+dhat{j},,z=ehat{i}+fhat{j},,N=Nhat{k}$ reduces the sum to $$N((ad-bc)(ehat{i}+fhat{j})+(cf-de)(ahat{i}+bhat{j})+(be-af)(chat{i}+dhat{j})).$$The $hat{i}$ coefficient is $N(ade-bce+acf-ade+bce-acf)=0$. The $hat{j}$ coefficient can be handled similarly.






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    I accepted a different answer but +1 because I appreciate that this finishes off the solution in that answer.
    $endgroup$
    – AlephNull
    yesterday





















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Since $bf x, bf y, bf z$ are coplanar, they are linearly dependent. Since the result to be proved is symmetric in $bf x, bf y, bf z$, withouht loss of generality we can write $bf z = lambda bf x + mu bf y$ for some scalars $lambda, mu$.



Now, $$begin{align}
& (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x \
= & (bf y times (lambda bf x + mu bf y) cdot bf N); bf x \
= & (bf y times lambda bf x cdot bf N); bf x \
= & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x)
end{align}$$

and similarly $$begin{align}
& (bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
= & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (mu bf y)
end{align}$$

So $$begin{align}
& (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x +
(bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
= & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x + mu bf y)\
= & -(bf x times bf y cdot bf N);z
end{align} $$

and the result follows.






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    2












    $begingroup$

    If you know a little about the exterior algebra we can see this almost immediately, and in a way that generalizes substantially.




    Pick any plane $Pi$ containing ${bf x}, {bf y}, {bf z}$. The map on $Pi$ defined by $$({bf a}, {bf b}, {bf c}) mapsto [({bf a} times {bf b}) cdot {bf N}] {bf c} + [({bf b} times {bf c}) cdot {bf N}] {bf a} + [({bf c} times {bf a}) cdot {bf N}] {bf b}$$
    is visibly trilinear and totally skew in its arguments, so it is a (vector-valued) $3$-form on a $2$-dimensional vector space and hence is the zero map.




    NB this argument doesn't use any properties of $bf N$.






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      1












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      By the properties of the triple product ( circluar shift) we can rearrange formula:



      $ (mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y} \ =(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{y}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{z}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{x}) mathbf{y} $



      All cross product vectors $$v_1=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}),v_2=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}), v_3=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z})$$

      lie in the plane of coplanar vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ and they are vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ rotated by $pi/2$ in this plane.



      So we can limit themselves to this plane and take any vectors with components $mathbf{x}=[ x_1 x_2]^T,mathbf{y}=[ y_1 y_2]^T,mathbf{z} =[ z_1 z_2]^T$.



      Transform them with the rotation matrix $R=begin{bmatrix} 0 & -1 \ 1 & 0 end{bmatrix}$ , calculate appropriate dot products and finally check the formula with these assumed general components.



      Namely we need to calculate:
      $$(y^TRx)z+(z^TRy)x+(x^TRz)y$$






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        6 Answers
        6






        active

        oldest

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        6 Answers
        6






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        9












        $begingroup$

        Here's an observation: If $Q$ is a rotation matrix, then
        $$
        (Qx) times (Qy) = Q(x times y)
        $$



        You have to prove that, of course, but it's not too tough. Similarly,
        $$
        (Qx) cdot (Qy) = x cdot y
        $$

        and, for a scalar $alpha$, we have
        $$
        Q (alpha x) = alpha (Q x)
        $$



        Now suppose that for some vector $v$, we have
        $$
        (mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y}=mathbf{v}.
        $$



        Key idea 1: You can apply the rules above to show that for any rotation matrix $Q$, you can apply $Q$ to all the elements on the left to get $Qv$.



        Key idea 2: You can choose $Q$ so that it takes $N$ to the vector $(0,0,1)$, and puts $x, y,$ and $z$ into the plane consisting of vectors of the form $(a, b, 0)$. And in that plane, it's easy to see that you get $0$, so $Qv = 0$. Hence $v = 0$, and you're done.



        In short: by a change of basis, you can assume that $N$ is the vector $(0,0,1)$ and that the other vectors all lie in the $(a, b, 0)$ plane, and things get easy.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$













        • $begingroup$
          Ah so it is a clever approach with orthogonal matrices. I'm familiar with those identities. But I don't see how $Qv=0$. I can't see how we apply anything other than the third identity $Q(alpha x)=alpha (Qx)$.
          $endgroup$
          – AlephNull
          yesterday












        • $begingroup$
          Oh I see, you're talking about the elements, not the terms. I understand the solution now.
          $endgroup$
          – AlephNull
          yesterday








        • 2




          $begingroup$
          By the way, there's a general principle at work here, much loved by physicists, but worth remembering even if that's not your domain: "find the right coordinate system for your problem." (The math version is mostly "choose the right basis/generating set/...")
          $endgroup$
          – John Hughes
          yesterday
















        9












        $begingroup$

        Here's an observation: If $Q$ is a rotation matrix, then
        $$
        (Qx) times (Qy) = Q(x times y)
        $$



        You have to prove that, of course, but it's not too tough. Similarly,
        $$
        (Qx) cdot (Qy) = x cdot y
        $$

        and, for a scalar $alpha$, we have
        $$
        Q (alpha x) = alpha (Q x)
        $$



        Now suppose that for some vector $v$, we have
        $$
        (mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y}=mathbf{v}.
        $$



        Key idea 1: You can apply the rules above to show that for any rotation matrix $Q$, you can apply $Q$ to all the elements on the left to get $Qv$.



        Key idea 2: You can choose $Q$ so that it takes $N$ to the vector $(0,0,1)$, and puts $x, y,$ and $z$ into the plane consisting of vectors of the form $(a, b, 0)$. And in that plane, it's easy to see that you get $0$, so $Qv = 0$. Hence $v = 0$, and you're done.



        In short: by a change of basis, you can assume that $N$ is the vector $(0,0,1)$ and that the other vectors all lie in the $(a, b, 0)$ plane, and things get easy.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$













        • $begingroup$
          Ah so it is a clever approach with orthogonal matrices. I'm familiar with those identities. But I don't see how $Qv=0$. I can't see how we apply anything other than the third identity $Q(alpha x)=alpha (Qx)$.
          $endgroup$
          – AlephNull
          yesterday












        • $begingroup$
          Oh I see, you're talking about the elements, not the terms. I understand the solution now.
          $endgroup$
          – AlephNull
          yesterday








        • 2




          $begingroup$
          By the way, there's a general principle at work here, much loved by physicists, but worth remembering even if that's not your domain: "find the right coordinate system for your problem." (The math version is mostly "choose the right basis/generating set/...")
          $endgroup$
          – John Hughes
          yesterday














        9












        9








        9





        $begingroup$

        Here's an observation: If $Q$ is a rotation matrix, then
        $$
        (Qx) times (Qy) = Q(x times y)
        $$



        You have to prove that, of course, but it's not too tough. Similarly,
        $$
        (Qx) cdot (Qy) = x cdot y
        $$

        and, for a scalar $alpha$, we have
        $$
        Q (alpha x) = alpha (Q x)
        $$



        Now suppose that for some vector $v$, we have
        $$
        (mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y}=mathbf{v}.
        $$



        Key idea 1: You can apply the rules above to show that for any rotation matrix $Q$, you can apply $Q$ to all the elements on the left to get $Qv$.



        Key idea 2: You can choose $Q$ so that it takes $N$ to the vector $(0,0,1)$, and puts $x, y,$ and $z$ into the plane consisting of vectors of the form $(a, b, 0)$. And in that plane, it's easy to see that you get $0$, so $Qv = 0$. Hence $v = 0$, and you're done.



        In short: by a change of basis, you can assume that $N$ is the vector $(0,0,1)$ and that the other vectors all lie in the $(a, b, 0)$ plane, and things get easy.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        Here's an observation: If $Q$ is a rotation matrix, then
        $$
        (Qx) times (Qy) = Q(x times y)
        $$



        You have to prove that, of course, but it's not too tough. Similarly,
        $$
        (Qx) cdot (Qy) = x cdot y
        $$

        and, for a scalar $alpha$, we have
        $$
        Q (alpha x) = alpha (Q x)
        $$



        Now suppose that for some vector $v$, we have
        $$
        (mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y}=mathbf{v}.
        $$



        Key idea 1: You can apply the rules above to show that for any rotation matrix $Q$, you can apply $Q$ to all the elements on the left to get $Qv$.



        Key idea 2: You can choose $Q$ so that it takes $N$ to the vector $(0,0,1)$, and puts $x, y,$ and $z$ into the plane consisting of vectors of the form $(a, b, 0)$. And in that plane, it's easy to see that you get $0$, so $Qv = 0$. Hence $v = 0$, and you're done.



        In short: by a change of basis, you can assume that $N$ is the vector $(0,0,1)$ and that the other vectors all lie in the $(a, b, 0)$ plane, and things get easy.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered yesterday









        John HughesJohn Hughes

        64.8k24191




        64.8k24191












        • $begingroup$
          Ah so it is a clever approach with orthogonal matrices. I'm familiar with those identities. But I don't see how $Qv=0$. I can't see how we apply anything other than the third identity $Q(alpha x)=alpha (Qx)$.
          $endgroup$
          – AlephNull
          yesterday












        • $begingroup$
          Oh I see, you're talking about the elements, not the terms. I understand the solution now.
          $endgroup$
          – AlephNull
          yesterday








        • 2




          $begingroup$
          By the way, there's a general principle at work here, much loved by physicists, but worth remembering even if that's not your domain: "find the right coordinate system for your problem." (The math version is mostly "choose the right basis/generating set/...")
          $endgroup$
          – John Hughes
          yesterday


















        • $begingroup$
          Ah so it is a clever approach with orthogonal matrices. I'm familiar with those identities. But I don't see how $Qv=0$. I can't see how we apply anything other than the third identity $Q(alpha x)=alpha (Qx)$.
          $endgroup$
          – AlephNull
          yesterday












        • $begingroup$
          Oh I see, you're talking about the elements, not the terms. I understand the solution now.
          $endgroup$
          – AlephNull
          yesterday








        • 2




          $begingroup$
          By the way, there's a general principle at work here, much loved by physicists, but worth remembering even if that's not your domain: "find the right coordinate system for your problem." (The math version is mostly "choose the right basis/generating set/...")
          $endgroup$
          – John Hughes
          yesterday
















        $begingroup$
        Ah so it is a clever approach with orthogonal matrices. I'm familiar with those identities. But I don't see how $Qv=0$. I can't see how we apply anything other than the third identity $Q(alpha x)=alpha (Qx)$.
        $endgroup$
        – AlephNull
        yesterday






        $begingroup$
        Ah so it is a clever approach with orthogonal matrices. I'm familiar with those identities. But I don't see how $Qv=0$. I can't see how we apply anything other than the third identity $Q(alpha x)=alpha (Qx)$.
        $endgroup$
        – AlephNull
        yesterday














        $begingroup$
        Oh I see, you're talking about the elements, not the terms. I understand the solution now.
        $endgroup$
        – AlephNull
        yesterday






        $begingroup$
        Oh I see, you're talking about the elements, not the terms. I understand the solution now.
        $endgroup$
        – AlephNull
        yesterday






        2




        2




        $begingroup$
        By the way, there's a general principle at work here, much loved by physicists, but worth remembering even if that's not your domain: "find the right coordinate system for your problem." (The math version is mostly "choose the right basis/generating set/...")
        $endgroup$
        – John Hughes
        yesterday




        $begingroup$
        By the way, there's a general principle at work here, much loved by physicists, but worth remembering even if that's not your domain: "find the right coordinate system for your problem." (The math version is mostly "choose the right basis/generating set/...")
        $endgroup$
        – John Hughes
        yesterday











        10












        $begingroup$

        If what is required is only to prove the validity of the given identity, there is another approach. Observe that if $x$ and $y$ are linearly dependent, i.e. for some $c$, $x=c y$ or $y=c x$, then the identity holds trivially because $wtimes v =-(vtimes w)$ and $v times v=0$ for all $v,w$. Thus, we may assume $x$ and $y$ are linearly independent and hence $z$ is a linear combination of $x$ and $y$, that is, $z=ax+by$ for some $a,b$. Now, since the given identity is linear in each variable and it holds for both $z=x$ and $z=y$, it is also true for $z=ax+by$. This proves the identity. It can be also noted that $N$ being perpendicular to the plane containing $x,y,z$ plays no role in this proof.






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$









        • 2




          $begingroup$
          very nice solution!
          $endgroup$
          – John Hughes
          yesterday










        • $begingroup$
          Indeed, this is very elegant. So my last remark had some significance!
          $endgroup$
          – AlephNull
          yesterday










        • $begingroup$
          Thank you both :-)
          $endgroup$
          – Song
          21 hours ago
















        10












        $begingroup$

        If what is required is only to prove the validity of the given identity, there is another approach. Observe that if $x$ and $y$ are linearly dependent, i.e. for some $c$, $x=c y$ or $y=c x$, then the identity holds trivially because $wtimes v =-(vtimes w)$ and $v times v=0$ for all $v,w$. Thus, we may assume $x$ and $y$ are linearly independent and hence $z$ is a linear combination of $x$ and $y$, that is, $z=ax+by$ for some $a,b$. Now, since the given identity is linear in each variable and it holds for both $z=x$ and $z=y$, it is also true for $z=ax+by$. This proves the identity. It can be also noted that $N$ being perpendicular to the plane containing $x,y,z$ plays no role in this proof.






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$









        • 2




          $begingroup$
          very nice solution!
          $endgroup$
          – John Hughes
          yesterday










        • $begingroup$
          Indeed, this is very elegant. So my last remark had some significance!
          $endgroup$
          – AlephNull
          yesterday










        • $begingroup$
          Thank you both :-)
          $endgroup$
          – Song
          21 hours ago














        10












        10








        10





        $begingroup$

        If what is required is only to prove the validity of the given identity, there is another approach. Observe that if $x$ and $y$ are linearly dependent, i.e. for some $c$, $x=c y$ or $y=c x$, then the identity holds trivially because $wtimes v =-(vtimes w)$ and $v times v=0$ for all $v,w$. Thus, we may assume $x$ and $y$ are linearly independent and hence $z$ is a linear combination of $x$ and $y$, that is, $z=ax+by$ for some $a,b$. Now, since the given identity is linear in each variable and it holds for both $z=x$ and $z=y$, it is also true for $z=ax+by$. This proves the identity. It can be also noted that $N$ being perpendicular to the plane containing $x,y,z$ plays no role in this proof.






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        If what is required is only to prove the validity of the given identity, there is another approach. Observe that if $x$ and $y$ are linearly dependent, i.e. for some $c$, $x=c y$ or $y=c x$, then the identity holds trivially because $wtimes v =-(vtimes w)$ and $v times v=0$ for all $v,w$. Thus, we may assume $x$ and $y$ are linearly independent and hence $z$ is a linear combination of $x$ and $y$, that is, $z=ax+by$ for some $a,b$. Now, since the given identity is linear in each variable and it holds for both $z=x$ and $z=y$, it is also true for $z=ax+by$. This proves the identity. It can be also noted that $N$ being perpendicular to the plane containing $x,y,z$ plays no role in this proof.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited yesterday

























        answered yesterday









        SongSong

        18.5k21550




        18.5k21550








        • 2




          $begingroup$
          very nice solution!
          $endgroup$
          – John Hughes
          yesterday










        • $begingroup$
          Indeed, this is very elegant. So my last remark had some significance!
          $endgroup$
          – AlephNull
          yesterday










        • $begingroup$
          Thank you both :-)
          $endgroup$
          – Song
          21 hours ago














        • 2




          $begingroup$
          very nice solution!
          $endgroup$
          – John Hughes
          yesterday










        • $begingroup$
          Indeed, this is very elegant. So my last remark had some significance!
          $endgroup$
          – AlephNull
          yesterday










        • $begingroup$
          Thank you both :-)
          $endgroup$
          – Song
          21 hours ago








        2




        2




        $begingroup$
        very nice solution!
        $endgroup$
        – John Hughes
        yesterday




        $begingroup$
        very nice solution!
        $endgroup$
        – John Hughes
        yesterday












        $begingroup$
        Indeed, this is very elegant. So my last remark had some significance!
        $endgroup$
        – AlephNull
        yesterday




        $begingroup$
        Indeed, this is very elegant. So my last remark had some significance!
        $endgroup$
        – AlephNull
        yesterday












        $begingroup$
        Thank you both :-)
        $endgroup$
        – Song
        21 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        Thank you both :-)
        $endgroup$
        – Song
        21 hours ago











        4












        $begingroup$

        Writing $x=ahat{i}+bhat{j},,y=chat{i}+dhat{j},,z=ehat{i}+fhat{j},,N=Nhat{k}$ reduces the sum to $$N((ad-bc)(ehat{i}+fhat{j})+(cf-de)(ahat{i}+bhat{j})+(be-af)(chat{i}+dhat{j})).$$The $hat{i}$ coefficient is $N(ade-bce+acf-ade+bce-acf)=0$. The $hat{j}$ coefficient can be handled similarly.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$













        • $begingroup$
          I accepted a different answer but +1 because I appreciate that this finishes off the solution in that answer.
          $endgroup$
          – AlephNull
          yesterday


















        4












        $begingroup$

        Writing $x=ahat{i}+bhat{j},,y=chat{i}+dhat{j},,z=ehat{i}+fhat{j},,N=Nhat{k}$ reduces the sum to $$N((ad-bc)(ehat{i}+fhat{j})+(cf-de)(ahat{i}+bhat{j})+(be-af)(chat{i}+dhat{j})).$$The $hat{i}$ coefficient is $N(ade-bce+acf-ade+bce-acf)=0$. The $hat{j}$ coefficient can be handled similarly.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$













        • $begingroup$
          I accepted a different answer but +1 because I appreciate that this finishes off the solution in that answer.
          $endgroup$
          – AlephNull
          yesterday
















        4












        4








        4





        $begingroup$

        Writing $x=ahat{i}+bhat{j},,y=chat{i}+dhat{j},,z=ehat{i}+fhat{j},,N=Nhat{k}$ reduces the sum to $$N((ad-bc)(ehat{i}+fhat{j})+(cf-de)(ahat{i}+bhat{j})+(be-af)(chat{i}+dhat{j})).$$The $hat{i}$ coefficient is $N(ade-bce+acf-ade+bce-acf)=0$. The $hat{j}$ coefficient can be handled similarly.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        Writing $x=ahat{i}+bhat{j},,y=chat{i}+dhat{j},,z=ehat{i}+fhat{j},,N=Nhat{k}$ reduces the sum to $$N((ad-bc)(ehat{i}+fhat{j})+(cf-de)(ahat{i}+bhat{j})+(be-af)(chat{i}+dhat{j})).$$The $hat{i}$ coefficient is $N(ade-bce+acf-ade+bce-acf)=0$. The $hat{j}$ coefficient can be handled similarly.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered yesterday









        J.G.J.G.

        31.1k23149




        31.1k23149












        • $begingroup$
          I accepted a different answer but +1 because I appreciate that this finishes off the solution in that answer.
          $endgroup$
          – AlephNull
          yesterday




















        • $begingroup$
          I accepted a different answer but +1 because I appreciate that this finishes off the solution in that answer.
          $endgroup$
          – AlephNull
          yesterday


















        $begingroup$
        I accepted a different answer but +1 because I appreciate that this finishes off the solution in that answer.
        $endgroup$
        – AlephNull
        yesterday






        $begingroup$
        I accepted a different answer but +1 because I appreciate that this finishes off the solution in that answer.
        $endgroup$
        – AlephNull
        yesterday













        4












        $begingroup$

        Since $bf x, bf y, bf z$ are coplanar, they are linearly dependent. Since the result to be proved is symmetric in $bf x, bf y, bf z$, withouht loss of generality we can write $bf z = lambda bf x + mu bf y$ for some scalars $lambda, mu$.



        Now, $$begin{align}
        & (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x \
        = & (bf y times (lambda bf x + mu bf y) cdot bf N); bf x \
        = & (bf y times lambda bf x cdot bf N); bf x \
        = & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x)
        end{align}$$

        and similarly $$begin{align}
        & (bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
        = & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (mu bf y)
        end{align}$$

        So $$begin{align}
        & (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x +
        (bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
        = & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x + mu bf y)\
        = & -(bf x times bf y cdot bf N);z
        end{align} $$

        and the result follows.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$


















          4












          $begingroup$

          Since $bf x, bf y, bf z$ are coplanar, they are linearly dependent. Since the result to be proved is symmetric in $bf x, bf y, bf z$, withouht loss of generality we can write $bf z = lambda bf x + mu bf y$ for some scalars $lambda, mu$.



          Now, $$begin{align}
          & (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x \
          = & (bf y times (lambda bf x + mu bf y) cdot bf N); bf x \
          = & (bf y times lambda bf x cdot bf N); bf x \
          = & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x)
          end{align}$$

          and similarly $$begin{align}
          & (bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
          = & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (mu bf y)
          end{align}$$

          So $$begin{align}
          & (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x +
          (bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
          = & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x + mu bf y)\
          = & -(bf x times bf y cdot bf N);z
          end{align} $$

          and the result follows.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$
















            4












            4








            4





            $begingroup$

            Since $bf x, bf y, bf z$ are coplanar, they are linearly dependent. Since the result to be proved is symmetric in $bf x, bf y, bf z$, withouht loss of generality we can write $bf z = lambda bf x + mu bf y$ for some scalars $lambda, mu$.



            Now, $$begin{align}
            & (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x \
            = & (bf y times (lambda bf x + mu bf y) cdot bf N); bf x \
            = & (bf y times lambda bf x cdot bf N); bf x \
            = & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x)
            end{align}$$

            and similarly $$begin{align}
            & (bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
            = & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (mu bf y)
            end{align}$$

            So $$begin{align}
            & (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x +
            (bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
            = & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x + mu bf y)\
            = & -(bf x times bf y cdot bf N);z
            end{align} $$

            and the result follows.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            Since $bf x, bf y, bf z$ are coplanar, they are linearly dependent. Since the result to be proved is symmetric in $bf x, bf y, bf z$, withouht loss of generality we can write $bf z = lambda bf x + mu bf y$ for some scalars $lambda, mu$.



            Now, $$begin{align}
            & (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x \
            = & (bf y times (lambda bf x + mu bf y) cdot bf N); bf x \
            = & (bf y times lambda bf x cdot bf N); bf x \
            = & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x)
            end{align}$$

            and similarly $$begin{align}
            & (bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
            = & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (mu bf y)
            end{align}$$

            So $$begin{align}
            & (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x +
            (bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
            = & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x + mu bf y)\
            = & -(bf x times bf y cdot bf N);z
            end{align} $$

            and the result follows.







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered yesterday









            alephzeroalephzero

            72037




            72037























                2












                $begingroup$

                If you know a little about the exterior algebra we can see this almost immediately, and in a way that generalizes substantially.




                Pick any plane $Pi$ containing ${bf x}, {bf y}, {bf z}$. The map on $Pi$ defined by $$({bf a}, {bf b}, {bf c}) mapsto [({bf a} times {bf b}) cdot {bf N}] {bf c} + [({bf b} times {bf c}) cdot {bf N}] {bf a} + [({bf c} times {bf a}) cdot {bf N}] {bf b}$$
                is visibly trilinear and totally skew in its arguments, so it is a (vector-valued) $3$-form on a $2$-dimensional vector space and hence is the zero map.




                NB this argument doesn't use any properties of $bf N$.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$


















                  2












                  $begingroup$

                  If you know a little about the exterior algebra we can see this almost immediately, and in a way that generalizes substantially.




                  Pick any plane $Pi$ containing ${bf x}, {bf y}, {bf z}$. The map on $Pi$ defined by $$({bf a}, {bf b}, {bf c}) mapsto [({bf a} times {bf b}) cdot {bf N}] {bf c} + [({bf b} times {bf c}) cdot {bf N}] {bf a} + [({bf c} times {bf a}) cdot {bf N}] {bf b}$$
                  is visibly trilinear and totally skew in its arguments, so it is a (vector-valued) $3$-form on a $2$-dimensional vector space and hence is the zero map.




                  NB this argument doesn't use any properties of $bf N$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$
















                    2












                    2








                    2





                    $begingroup$

                    If you know a little about the exterior algebra we can see this almost immediately, and in a way that generalizes substantially.




                    Pick any plane $Pi$ containing ${bf x}, {bf y}, {bf z}$. The map on $Pi$ defined by $$({bf a}, {bf b}, {bf c}) mapsto [({bf a} times {bf b}) cdot {bf N}] {bf c} + [({bf b} times {bf c}) cdot {bf N}] {bf a} + [({bf c} times {bf a}) cdot {bf N}] {bf b}$$
                    is visibly trilinear and totally skew in its arguments, so it is a (vector-valued) $3$-form on a $2$-dimensional vector space and hence is the zero map.




                    NB this argument doesn't use any properties of $bf N$.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$



                    If you know a little about the exterior algebra we can see this almost immediately, and in a way that generalizes substantially.




                    Pick any plane $Pi$ containing ${bf x}, {bf y}, {bf z}$. The map on $Pi$ defined by $$({bf a}, {bf b}, {bf c}) mapsto [({bf a} times {bf b}) cdot {bf N}] {bf c} + [({bf b} times {bf c}) cdot {bf N}] {bf a} + [({bf c} times {bf a}) cdot {bf N}] {bf b}$$
                    is visibly trilinear and totally skew in its arguments, so it is a (vector-valued) $3$-form on a $2$-dimensional vector space and hence is the zero map.




                    NB this argument doesn't use any properties of $bf N$.







                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered yesterday









                    TravisTravis

                    63.7k769150




                    63.7k769150























                        1












                        $begingroup$

                        By the properties of the triple product ( circluar shift) we can rearrange formula:



                        $ (mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y} \ =(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{y}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{z}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{x}) mathbf{y} $



                        All cross product vectors $$v_1=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}),v_2=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}), v_3=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z})$$

                        lie in the plane of coplanar vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ and they are vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ rotated by $pi/2$ in this plane.



                        So we can limit themselves to this plane and take any vectors with components $mathbf{x}=[ x_1 x_2]^T,mathbf{y}=[ y_1 y_2]^T,mathbf{z} =[ z_1 z_2]^T$.



                        Transform them with the rotation matrix $R=begin{bmatrix} 0 & -1 \ 1 & 0 end{bmatrix}$ , calculate appropriate dot products and finally check the formula with these assumed general components.



                        Namely we need to calculate:
                        $$(y^TRx)z+(z^TRy)x+(x^TRz)y$$






                        share|cite|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$


















                          1












                          $begingroup$

                          By the properties of the triple product ( circluar shift) we can rearrange formula:



                          $ (mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y} \ =(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{y}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{z}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{x}) mathbf{y} $



                          All cross product vectors $$v_1=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}),v_2=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}), v_3=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z})$$

                          lie in the plane of coplanar vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ and they are vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ rotated by $pi/2$ in this plane.



                          So we can limit themselves to this plane and take any vectors with components $mathbf{x}=[ x_1 x_2]^T,mathbf{y}=[ y_1 y_2]^T,mathbf{z} =[ z_1 z_2]^T$.



                          Transform them with the rotation matrix $R=begin{bmatrix} 0 & -1 \ 1 & 0 end{bmatrix}$ , calculate appropriate dot products and finally check the formula with these assumed general components.



                          Namely we need to calculate:
                          $$(y^TRx)z+(z^TRy)x+(x^TRz)y$$






                          share|cite|improve this answer











                          $endgroup$
















                            1












                            1








                            1





                            $begingroup$

                            By the properties of the triple product ( circluar shift) we can rearrange formula:



                            $ (mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y} \ =(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{y}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{z}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{x}) mathbf{y} $



                            All cross product vectors $$v_1=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}),v_2=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}), v_3=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z})$$

                            lie in the plane of coplanar vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ and they are vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ rotated by $pi/2$ in this plane.



                            So we can limit themselves to this plane and take any vectors with components $mathbf{x}=[ x_1 x_2]^T,mathbf{y}=[ y_1 y_2]^T,mathbf{z} =[ z_1 z_2]^T$.



                            Transform them with the rotation matrix $R=begin{bmatrix} 0 & -1 \ 1 & 0 end{bmatrix}$ , calculate appropriate dot products and finally check the formula with these assumed general components.



                            Namely we need to calculate:
                            $$(y^TRx)z+(z^TRy)x+(x^TRz)y$$






                            share|cite|improve this answer











                            $endgroup$



                            By the properties of the triple product ( circluar shift) we can rearrange formula:



                            $ (mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y} \ =(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{y}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{z}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{x}) mathbf{y} $



                            All cross product vectors $$v_1=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}),v_2=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}), v_3=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z})$$

                            lie in the plane of coplanar vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ and they are vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ rotated by $pi/2$ in this plane.



                            So we can limit themselves to this plane and take any vectors with components $mathbf{x}=[ x_1 x_2]^T,mathbf{y}=[ y_1 y_2]^T,mathbf{z} =[ z_1 z_2]^T$.



                            Transform them with the rotation matrix $R=begin{bmatrix} 0 & -1 \ 1 & 0 end{bmatrix}$ , calculate appropriate dot products and finally check the formula with these assumed general components.



                            Namely we need to calculate:
                            $$(y^TRx)z+(z^TRy)x+(x^TRz)y$$







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                            edited 20 hours ago

























                            answered yesterday









                            WidawensenWidawensen

                            4,69321446




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