Is “Night” based on the number 8?
up vote
47
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I have seen on Facebook, a post (in French) claiming that many words for the night are based on a n+respective number for the number 8. For example on this website,
Language Number 8 night
français huit nuit
anglais eight night
allemand acht nacht
espagnol ocho noche
portugais oito noite
italien otto notte
néerlandais acht nacht
suédois aetta natta
roumain opt noapte
wallon ût nut
occitan uèch nuèch
catalan vuit nit
gascon ueit nueit
picard uit nuit
piedmontais eut neuit
espéranto ok nokto
The post goes even further, claiming that N is a symbol for infinity, and that 8 is the typical infinity symbol rotated.
My first reaction was to dismiss it. But then, I've been thinking about it, and would really like to have reasons to dismiss it.
The infinity symbol dates from 1655 (according to Wikipedia)whereas the word nuit was already in use by 1170 (website in French). Furthermore, the word nuit was used as noit in older French, and derives from noctum (latin) and thus nox (littré in French). But unfortunately, my knowledge of Latin is by far too limited to investigate further on the Latin.
Actually, the last link mentions that for the author M. Ad. Regnier, studying the Sanskrit, it could be related to the word naked (German: nackt, Latin: nuda).
In English, (the ight deriving from eight sounds worse than some other examples), what I gather is that
Old English niht (West Saxon neaht, Anglian næht, neht) "night, darkness [...] from Proto-Germanic *nahts
which relate as well to nox (Latin), nuks (Old Greek) or naktam (Sanskrit). The same website also indicates that
according to Watkins, probably from a verbal root *neg- "to be dark, be night."
But, if the relation night -> infinity -> infinity symbol -> 8 -> night, sounds improbable, I cannot find definitive information on a possible relation between the number 8 and the night.
Can you help me get down to the bottom of that question?
etymology
|
show 15 more comments
up vote
47
down vote
favorite
I have seen on Facebook, a post (in French) claiming that many words for the night are based on a n+respective number for the number 8. For example on this website,
Language Number 8 night
français huit nuit
anglais eight night
allemand acht nacht
espagnol ocho noche
portugais oito noite
italien otto notte
néerlandais acht nacht
suédois aetta natta
roumain opt noapte
wallon ût nut
occitan uèch nuèch
catalan vuit nit
gascon ueit nueit
picard uit nuit
piedmontais eut neuit
espéranto ok nokto
The post goes even further, claiming that N is a symbol for infinity, and that 8 is the typical infinity symbol rotated.
My first reaction was to dismiss it. But then, I've been thinking about it, and would really like to have reasons to dismiss it.
The infinity symbol dates from 1655 (according to Wikipedia)whereas the word nuit was already in use by 1170 (website in French). Furthermore, the word nuit was used as noit in older French, and derives from noctum (latin) and thus nox (littré in French). But unfortunately, my knowledge of Latin is by far too limited to investigate further on the Latin.
Actually, the last link mentions that for the author M. Ad. Regnier, studying the Sanskrit, it could be related to the word naked (German: nackt, Latin: nuda).
In English, (the ight deriving from eight sounds worse than some other examples), what I gather is that
Old English niht (West Saxon neaht, Anglian næht, neht) "night, darkness [...] from Proto-Germanic *nahts
which relate as well to nox (Latin), nuks (Old Greek) or naktam (Sanskrit). The same website also indicates that
according to Watkins, probably from a verbal root *neg- "to be dark, be night."
But, if the relation night -> infinity -> infinity symbol -> 8 -> night, sounds improbable, I cannot find definitive information on a possible relation between the number 8 and the night.
Can you help me get down to the bottom of that question?
etymology
76
I am a mathematician and have never seen N used as a symbol for infinity.
– Nate Eldredge
2 days ago
90
All languages in your list (excluding Esperanto) are etymologically related, and share a common ancestor language (Proto-Indoeuropean, PIE). If in PIE the word for "night" and "eight" were similar by accident so that the vowels are the same but the first word starts with a nasal, it wouldn't be surprising at all if languages descendent from PIE feature the same similarity between these words. I suspect that's the best answer that you'll get. A paper that explicitly shows that "night" and "eight" are phonologically similar in a selection of related languages is probably not very publishable.
– Schmuddi
2 days ago
12
Related: Linguistics.SE question
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
11
To sum up, hypothesis A: in each of these languages the word "Night" was independently derived from word "eight". Even in man-made Esperanto. Oh, and coincidentally in most of the languages where the word for number 8 does not resemble "O(K)T", the word for the dark period of the day bears little similarity to it. Hypothesis B: "night" and "eight" sounded similar in the ancestor of these languages, therefore they sound similar in modern languages. Looks like a job for Occam's razor.
– IMil
yesterday
44
@NateEldredge I bet someone thinks that aleph is a fancy N.
– hobbs
yesterday
|
show 15 more comments
up vote
47
down vote
favorite
up vote
47
down vote
favorite
I have seen on Facebook, a post (in French) claiming that many words for the night are based on a n+respective number for the number 8. For example on this website,
Language Number 8 night
français huit nuit
anglais eight night
allemand acht nacht
espagnol ocho noche
portugais oito noite
italien otto notte
néerlandais acht nacht
suédois aetta natta
roumain opt noapte
wallon ût nut
occitan uèch nuèch
catalan vuit nit
gascon ueit nueit
picard uit nuit
piedmontais eut neuit
espéranto ok nokto
The post goes even further, claiming that N is a symbol for infinity, and that 8 is the typical infinity symbol rotated.
My first reaction was to dismiss it. But then, I've been thinking about it, and would really like to have reasons to dismiss it.
The infinity symbol dates from 1655 (according to Wikipedia)whereas the word nuit was already in use by 1170 (website in French). Furthermore, the word nuit was used as noit in older French, and derives from noctum (latin) and thus nox (littré in French). But unfortunately, my knowledge of Latin is by far too limited to investigate further on the Latin.
Actually, the last link mentions that for the author M. Ad. Regnier, studying the Sanskrit, it could be related to the word naked (German: nackt, Latin: nuda).
In English, (the ight deriving from eight sounds worse than some other examples), what I gather is that
Old English niht (West Saxon neaht, Anglian næht, neht) "night, darkness [...] from Proto-Germanic *nahts
which relate as well to nox (Latin), nuks (Old Greek) or naktam (Sanskrit). The same website also indicates that
according to Watkins, probably from a verbal root *neg- "to be dark, be night."
But, if the relation night -> infinity -> infinity symbol -> 8 -> night, sounds improbable, I cannot find definitive information on a possible relation between the number 8 and the night.
Can you help me get down to the bottom of that question?
etymology
I have seen on Facebook, a post (in French) claiming that many words for the night are based on a n+respective number for the number 8. For example on this website,
Language Number 8 night
français huit nuit
anglais eight night
allemand acht nacht
espagnol ocho noche
portugais oito noite
italien otto notte
néerlandais acht nacht
suédois aetta natta
roumain opt noapte
wallon ût nut
occitan uèch nuèch
catalan vuit nit
gascon ueit nueit
picard uit nuit
piedmontais eut neuit
espéranto ok nokto
The post goes even further, claiming that N is a symbol for infinity, and that 8 is the typical infinity symbol rotated.
My first reaction was to dismiss it. But then, I've been thinking about it, and would really like to have reasons to dismiss it.
The infinity symbol dates from 1655 (according to Wikipedia)whereas the word nuit was already in use by 1170 (website in French). Furthermore, the word nuit was used as noit in older French, and derives from noctum (latin) and thus nox (littré in French). But unfortunately, my knowledge of Latin is by far too limited to investigate further on the Latin.
Actually, the last link mentions that for the author M. Ad. Regnier, studying the Sanskrit, it could be related to the word naked (German: nackt, Latin: nuda).
In English, (the ight deriving from eight sounds worse than some other examples), what I gather is that
Old English niht (West Saxon neaht, Anglian næht, neht) "night, darkness [...] from Proto-Germanic *nahts
which relate as well to nox (Latin), nuks (Old Greek) or naktam (Sanskrit). The same website also indicates that
according to Watkins, probably from a verbal root *neg- "to be dark, be night."
But, if the relation night -> infinity -> infinity symbol -> 8 -> night, sounds improbable, I cannot find definitive information on a possible relation between the number 8 and the night.
Can you help me get down to the bottom of that question?
etymology
etymology
edited yesterday
terdon
291213
291213
asked 2 days ago
bilbo_pingouin
385138
385138
76
I am a mathematician and have never seen N used as a symbol for infinity.
– Nate Eldredge
2 days ago
90
All languages in your list (excluding Esperanto) are etymologically related, and share a common ancestor language (Proto-Indoeuropean, PIE). If in PIE the word for "night" and "eight" were similar by accident so that the vowels are the same but the first word starts with a nasal, it wouldn't be surprising at all if languages descendent from PIE feature the same similarity between these words. I suspect that's the best answer that you'll get. A paper that explicitly shows that "night" and "eight" are phonologically similar in a selection of related languages is probably not very publishable.
– Schmuddi
2 days ago
12
Related: Linguistics.SE question
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
11
To sum up, hypothesis A: in each of these languages the word "Night" was independently derived from word "eight". Even in man-made Esperanto. Oh, and coincidentally in most of the languages where the word for number 8 does not resemble "O(K)T", the word for the dark period of the day bears little similarity to it. Hypothesis B: "night" and "eight" sounded similar in the ancestor of these languages, therefore they sound similar in modern languages. Looks like a job for Occam's razor.
– IMil
yesterday
44
@NateEldredge I bet someone thinks that aleph is a fancy N.
– hobbs
yesterday
|
show 15 more comments
76
I am a mathematician and have never seen N used as a symbol for infinity.
– Nate Eldredge
2 days ago
90
All languages in your list (excluding Esperanto) are etymologically related, and share a common ancestor language (Proto-Indoeuropean, PIE). If in PIE the word for "night" and "eight" were similar by accident so that the vowels are the same but the first word starts with a nasal, it wouldn't be surprising at all if languages descendent from PIE feature the same similarity between these words. I suspect that's the best answer that you'll get. A paper that explicitly shows that "night" and "eight" are phonologically similar in a selection of related languages is probably not very publishable.
– Schmuddi
2 days ago
12
Related: Linguistics.SE question
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
11
To sum up, hypothesis A: in each of these languages the word "Night" was independently derived from word "eight". Even in man-made Esperanto. Oh, and coincidentally in most of the languages where the word for number 8 does not resemble "O(K)T", the word for the dark period of the day bears little similarity to it. Hypothesis B: "night" and "eight" sounded similar in the ancestor of these languages, therefore they sound similar in modern languages. Looks like a job for Occam's razor.
– IMil
yesterday
44
@NateEldredge I bet someone thinks that aleph is a fancy N.
– hobbs
yesterday
76
76
I am a mathematician and have never seen N used as a symbol for infinity.
– Nate Eldredge
2 days ago
I am a mathematician and have never seen N used as a symbol for infinity.
– Nate Eldredge
2 days ago
90
90
All languages in your list (excluding Esperanto) are etymologically related, and share a common ancestor language (Proto-Indoeuropean, PIE). If in PIE the word for "night" and "eight" were similar by accident so that the vowels are the same but the first word starts with a nasal, it wouldn't be surprising at all if languages descendent from PIE feature the same similarity between these words. I suspect that's the best answer that you'll get. A paper that explicitly shows that "night" and "eight" are phonologically similar in a selection of related languages is probably not very publishable.
– Schmuddi
2 days ago
All languages in your list (excluding Esperanto) are etymologically related, and share a common ancestor language (Proto-Indoeuropean, PIE). If in PIE the word for "night" and "eight" were similar by accident so that the vowels are the same but the first word starts with a nasal, it wouldn't be surprising at all if languages descendent from PIE feature the same similarity between these words. I suspect that's the best answer that you'll get. A paper that explicitly shows that "night" and "eight" are phonologically similar in a selection of related languages is probably not very publishable.
– Schmuddi
2 days ago
12
12
Related: Linguistics.SE question
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
Related: Linguistics.SE question
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
11
11
To sum up, hypothesis A: in each of these languages the word "Night" was independently derived from word "eight". Even in man-made Esperanto. Oh, and coincidentally in most of the languages where the word for number 8 does not resemble "O(K)T", the word for the dark period of the day bears little similarity to it. Hypothesis B: "night" and "eight" sounded similar in the ancestor of these languages, therefore they sound similar in modern languages. Looks like a job for Occam's razor.
– IMil
yesterday
To sum up, hypothesis A: in each of these languages the word "Night" was independently derived from word "eight". Even in man-made Esperanto. Oh, and coincidentally in most of the languages where the word for number 8 does not resemble "O(K)T", the word for the dark period of the day bears little similarity to it. Hypothesis B: "night" and "eight" sounded similar in the ancestor of these languages, therefore they sound similar in modern languages. Looks like a job for Occam's razor.
– IMil
yesterday
44
44
@NateEldredge I bet someone thinks that aleph is a fancy N.
– hobbs
yesterday
@NateEldredge I bet someone thinks that aleph is a fancy N.
– hobbs
yesterday
|
show 15 more comments
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
up vote
57
down vote
No, they are unrelated.
Some Proto-Indo-European language (PIE) reconstructions from Wiktionary:
- "eight": "oḱtṓw" (claimed to be a dual of "four fingers")
- "night": "nókʷts" (possibly from "bare, naked")
As @Schmuddi mentioned in a comment above, it looks just like a coincidence (slightly similar proto-language words). The rest looks like an urban legend.
New contributor
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
3
Welcome to Skeptics! Wiktionary doesn't appear to have any references for the comparative analysis that lead to these conclusions. Is there any reason we should accept these reconstructions on Wiktionary over the claims in the original post?
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
1
Hi @Oddthinking! Oh, I'm sorry for that quick-and-dirty answer; it just had a nice comparative list, so I thought it would be helpful. Anyway, we also can edit Wiktionary to add respectable links there :-)
– bobbib
2 days ago
7
We generally don't accept wikis as good references for this reason. I would normally recommend following the links the wiki site gives to get direct references, but that isn't possble here.
– Oddthinking♦
yesterday
6
@Oddthinking There are several etymological dictionaries of Indo-European languages that confirm that these two reconstructions are the generally accepted ones (with slight variations – I would reconstruct ‘eight’ as *óḱtōu̯ with initial stress, for example), but unfortunately none of them are easily available online. Many of them are referenced on the *nókʷts page on Wikipedia, but they exist in paper form only.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
yesterday
3
@JanusBahsJacquet: Feel free to quote from (paper) books you have access to.
– Oddthinking♦
23 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
up vote
30
down vote
In English "eight" and "night" came from different words, "ehte" and "niht" respectively, which have both undergone a common substitution of -gh- for a hard "h", which was a Middle English scribal habit.
In French, "huit" came from "uit" when an "h" was added to avoid confusion with "vit". As for "nuit", it's a transformation of old French "nuict" derived from latin "noctem", which is an inclination of "nox".
The etymological link can be tracked further down, but the two words remain distinct, albeit similar.
So at least for English and French, the similarity between these two words is not due to a common root, but rather to similar ancestor words, and in some cases common transformations which contributed to the similarity of modern forms. I don't know other languages in your list, but they all seem to be either Latin or Germanic, so they likely share their etymological transformation with French and English respectively.
add a comment |
up vote
13
down vote
To pile on the answers debunking a particular language:
The list misspells both Swedish words to make them look more similar than they are. "Åtta" (number eight) is misspelled as "aetta" and "natt" (night) is misspelled as "natta".
"Åtta" /ˈɔtːa/ and "natt" /nat:/ are not very alike as I'm sure most will agree.
Count this as another vote for occam's razor and this being an urban legend.
(Source: My Swedish dictionary. Wiktionary unfortunately is short on IPA for these but consider it "common knowledge"...)
New contributor
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
4
I disagree that åtta and natt are not alike, but my opinion isn't important - and neither is yours. Please provide some references to support your claims about etymology. [I don't think there is a need to cite the common modern Swedish words, but this is about etymology, not the current pronunication and spelling.]
– Oddthinking♦
22 hours ago
1
lol. they are completely different have nothing in common except for having two t's in them.
– dan-klasson
7 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
Basically, what the poster has noted is that something like the Indo-European language family exists, and they're only looking in Western to Central Europe. For extra credit they could have spotted Basque, Finnish and Hungarian as outliers [GoogleTranslate gives me zortzi/gauean, kahdeksan/yö-, nyolc/éjszaka respectively for the pairs].
Basically language evolution isn't chaotic: If you start from two similar words in a language, then you have a better than good chance they are similar in a descended language as well, especially for old everyday words. Just like irregular verbs have a tendency of becoming more regular (within a language) over the generations, a population changes all its words in a related fashion when it's inadvertently developing a new language: Like Castilian Spanish not using V, any imported word with a V gets similarly changed (if it stays in use); most Spanish words originally starting on "SP" will now start on "ESP" (Spagna -> España), and "disport" remained "deportive" where the rest of Europe shortened to "sport".
So if you group all Latin descendants together (I looked at Romanian as it's often similar to Italian to my ears, yet I see why it wasn't included in the list!!), there's not much left.
Then you look at Latin's direct ancestor (and not a reconstructed indo-european root language), ancient Greek... There we have νῠ́ξ ("nux") that clearly caused Latin nox (and modern Greek "Nýchta", which I named my white cat) and ὀκτώ ("okto") that are practically unchanged in Latin and modern Greek, and I can only shrug my shoulders at the claim.
I have to say they were lucky with English and Germanic here: Often the word is very different in Germanic and Frankish roots, and it's a 50-50 coin toss which of the two will get used (German Kirche, Dutch Kerk and Scots Kirk go with English Church; where Latin Ecclesia gives French Église, Spanish Iglesia, Italian Chiesa). Or in verbs, where English often resembles more the perfect past than French does: e.g., Latin Neglegere (perfect: Neglectus) --> French Négliger and English To neglect.
[EDIT: I have not sourced as earlier comments pointed out that Wiktionary sources are discouraged/distrusted here.. It's already rather long and the previous posts have already debunked the argument, so it adds further background that is for the Skeptic to check!! You wouldn't be a skeptic if you believed my argument because of my personally-chosen and possibly -edited link? (Too meta?)]
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
4
Ancient Greek is not "Latin's direct ancestor". The question did mention Romanian: "roumain opt noapte"
– sumelic
yesterday
1
As sumelic says, the Greek forms are not ancestral to the Latin form. They all derive from the same proto-form. Also, yö- doesn’t need the hyphen, because it’s not an abstract root: the normal Finnish word for ‘evening/night’ is just yö. The Hungarian equivalent, and cognate, is just éj, whereas éjszaka is more like ‘(at) nighttime’.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
yesterday
2
Basque, Finnish, and Hungarian aren't Indo-European languages. Finnish and Hungarian are Uralic languages, while Basque is a language isolate.
– Mark
yesterday
Please provide some references to support your claims.
– Oddthinking♦
22 hours ago
2
@Mark I think that user3445853 knows this, and that it’s actually the whole point they are trying to make in that sentence: that had the OP included some non-IE languages, they would have spotted that they do not obey the pattern.
– Emil Jeřábek
9 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
No, night and day come from old Norse.
https://glosbe.com/en/non/night
nátt { noun feminine }
The period between sunset and sunrise, when a location faces far away from the sun, thus when the sky is dark.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%B3tt
In Norse mythology, Nótt (Old Norse "night"[1]) is night personified, grandmother of Thor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagr
In Norse mythology, Dagr (Old Norse "day"[1]) is day personified.
Old Norse blended with early Germanic languages, from which English is derived.
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
Roberts French dictionary says that nuit (night) comes from the Latin noctis meaning nocturnal (vient du latin nox, noctis → noctambule, nocturne).
New contributor
1
Maybe I am. But n+octo (8 in Latin) falls also pretty close to noctis.
– bilbo_pingouin
2 days ago
1
Welcome to Skeptics! Can you please give a more precise reference? What dictionary is that, and which edition?
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
27
I think I'm missing something. Doesn't this answer just explain that the French word for "night" is related to a Latin root that also refers to "night" (which is not surprising at all given that French is a language that developed from Latin)?
– Schmuddi
2 days ago
6
In the body of the question it says "Furthermore, the word nuit was used as noit in older French, and derives from noctum (latin) and thus nox (littré in French)." This doesn't provide anything that wasn't already mentioned in the question.
– JMac
yesterday
add a comment |
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
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6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
57
down vote
No, they are unrelated.
Some Proto-Indo-European language (PIE) reconstructions from Wiktionary:
- "eight": "oḱtṓw" (claimed to be a dual of "four fingers")
- "night": "nókʷts" (possibly from "bare, naked")
As @Schmuddi mentioned in a comment above, it looks just like a coincidence (slightly similar proto-language words). The rest looks like an urban legend.
New contributor
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
3
Welcome to Skeptics! Wiktionary doesn't appear to have any references for the comparative analysis that lead to these conclusions. Is there any reason we should accept these reconstructions on Wiktionary over the claims in the original post?
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
1
Hi @Oddthinking! Oh, I'm sorry for that quick-and-dirty answer; it just had a nice comparative list, so I thought it would be helpful. Anyway, we also can edit Wiktionary to add respectable links there :-)
– bobbib
2 days ago
7
We generally don't accept wikis as good references for this reason. I would normally recommend following the links the wiki site gives to get direct references, but that isn't possble here.
– Oddthinking♦
yesterday
6
@Oddthinking There are several etymological dictionaries of Indo-European languages that confirm that these two reconstructions are the generally accepted ones (with slight variations – I would reconstruct ‘eight’ as *óḱtōu̯ with initial stress, for example), but unfortunately none of them are easily available online. Many of them are referenced on the *nókʷts page on Wikipedia, but they exist in paper form only.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
yesterday
3
@JanusBahsJacquet: Feel free to quote from (paper) books you have access to.
– Oddthinking♦
23 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
up vote
57
down vote
No, they are unrelated.
Some Proto-Indo-European language (PIE) reconstructions from Wiktionary:
- "eight": "oḱtṓw" (claimed to be a dual of "four fingers")
- "night": "nókʷts" (possibly from "bare, naked")
As @Schmuddi mentioned in a comment above, it looks just like a coincidence (slightly similar proto-language words). The rest looks like an urban legend.
New contributor
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
3
Welcome to Skeptics! Wiktionary doesn't appear to have any references for the comparative analysis that lead to these conclusions. Is there any reason we should accept these reconstructions on Wiktionary over the claims in the original post?
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
1
Hi @Oddthinking! Oh, I'm sorry for that quick-and-dirty answer; it just had a nice comparative list, so I thought it would be helpful. Anyway, we also can edit Wiktionary to add respectable links there :-)
– bobbib
2 days ago
7
We generally don't accept wikis as good references for this reason. I would normally recommend following the links the wiki site gives to get direct references, but that isn't possble here.
– Oddthinking♦
yesterday
6
@Oddthinking There are several etymological dictionaries of Indo-European languages that confirm that these two reconstructions are the generally accepted ones (with slight variations – I would reconstruct ‘eight’ as *óḱtōu̯ with initial stress, for example), but unfortunately none of them are easily available online. Many of them are referenced on the *nókʷts page on Wikipedia, but they exist in paper form only.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
yesterday
3
@JanusBahsJacquet: Feel free to quote from (paper) books you have access to.
– Oddthinking♦
23 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
up vote
57
down vote
up vote
57
down vote
No, they are unrelated.
Some Proto-Indo-European language (PIE) reconstructions from Wiktionary:
- "eight": "oḱtṓw" (claimed to be a dual of "four fingers")
- "night": "nókʷts" (possibly from "bare, naked")
As @Schmuddi mentioned in a comment above, it looks just like a coincidence (slightly similar proto-language words). The rest looks like an urban legend.
New contributor
No, they are unrelated.
Some Proto-Indo-European language (PIE) reconstructions from Wiktionary:
- "eight": "oḱtṓw" (claimed to be a dual of "four fingers")
- "night": "nókʷts" (possibly from "bare, naked")
As @Schmuddi mentioned in a comment above, it looks just like a coincidence (slightly similar proto-language words). The rest looks like an urban legend.
New contributor
edited 2 days ago
Oddthinking♦
98.3k30408514
98.3k30408514
New contributor
answered 2 days ago
bobbib
44114
44114
New contributor
New contributor
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
3
Welcome to Skeptics! Wiktionary doesn't appear to have any references for the comparative analysis that lead to these conclusions. Is there any reason we should accept these reconstructions on Wiktionary over the claims in the original post?
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
1
Hi @Oddthinking! Oh, I'm sorry for that quick-and-dirty answer; it just had a nice comparative list, so I thought it would be helpful. Anyway, we also can edit Wiktionary to add respectable links there :-)
– bobbib
2 days ago
7
We generally don't accept wikis as good references for this reason. I would normally recommend following the links the wiki site gives to get direct references, but that isn't possble here.
– Oddthinking♦
yesterday
6
@Oddthinking There are several etymological dictionaries of Indo-European languages that confirm that these two reconstructions are the generally accepted ones (with slight variations – I would reconstruct ‘eight’ as *óḱtōu̯ with initial stress, for example), but unfortunately none of them are easily available online. Many of them are referenced on the *nókʷts page on Wikipedia, but they exist in paper form only.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
yesterday
3
@JanusBahsJacquet: Feel free to quote from (paper) books you have access to.
– Oddthinking♦
23 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
3
Welcome to Skeptics! Wiktionary doesn't appear to have any references for the comparative analysis that lead to these conclusions. Is there any reason we should accept these reconstructions on Wiktionary over the claims in the original post?
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
1
Hi @Oddthinking! Oh, I'm sorry for that quick-and-dirty answer; it just had a nice comparative list, so I thought it would be helpful. Anyway, we also can edit Wiktionary to add respectable links there :-)
– bobbib
2 days ago
7
We generally don't accept wikis as good references for this reason. I would normally recommend following the links the wiki site gives to get direct references, but that isn't possble here.
– Oddthinking♦
yesterday
6
@Oddthinking There are several etymological dictionaries of Indo-European languages that confirm that these two reconstructions are the generally accepted ones (with slight variations – I would reconstruct ‘eight’ as *óḱtōu̯ with initial stress, for example), but unfortunately none of them are easily available online. Many of them are referenced on the *nókʷts page on Wikipedia, but they exist in paper form only.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
yesterday
3
@JanusBahsJacquet: Feel free to quote from (paper) books you have access to.
– Oddthinking♦
23 hours ago
3
3
Welcome to Skeptics! Wiktionary doesn't appear to have any references for the comparative analysis that lead to these conclusions. Is there any reason we should accept these reconstructions on Wiktionary over the claims in the original post?
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
Welcome to Skeptics! Wiktionary doesn't appear to have any references for the comparative analysis that lead to these conclusions. Is there any reason we should accept these reconstructions on Wiktionary over the claims in the original post?
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
1
1
Hi @Oddthinking! Oh, I'm sorry for that quick-and-dirty answer; it just had a nice comparative list, so I thought it would be helpful. Anyway, we also can edit Wiktionary to add respectable links there :-)
– bobbib
2 days ago
Hi @Oddthinking! Oh, I'm sorry for that quick-and-dirty answer; it just had a nice comparative list, so I thought it would be helpful. Anyway, we also can edit Wiktionary to add respectable links there :-)
– bobbib
2 days ago
7
7
We generally don't accept wikis as good references for this reason. I would normally recommend following the links the wiki site gives to get direct references, but that isn't possble here.
– Oddthinking♦
yesterday
We generally don't accept wikis as good references for this reason. I would normally recommend following the links the wiki site gives to get direct references, but that isn't possble here.
– Oddthinking♦
yesterday
6
6
@Oddthinking There are several etymological dictionaries of Indo-European languages that confirm that these two reconstructions are the generally accepted ones (with slight variations – I would reconstruct ‘eight’ as *óḱtōu̯ with initial stress, for example), but unfortunately none of them are easily available online. Many of them are referenced on the *nókʷts page on Wikipedia, but they exist in paper form only.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
yesterday
@Oddthinking There are several etymological dictionaries of Indo-European languages that confirm that these two reconstructions are the generally accepted ones (with slight variations – I would reconstruct ‘eight’ as *óḱtōu̯ with initial stress, for example), but unfortunately none of them are easily available online. Many of them are referenced on the *nókʷts page on Wikipedia, but they exist in paper form only.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
yesterday
3
3
@JanusBahsJacquet: Feel free to quote from (paper) books you have access to.
– Oddthinking♦
23 hours ago
@JanusBahsJacquet: Feel free to quote from (paper) books you have access to.
– Oddthinking♦
23 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
up vote
30
down vote
In English "eight" and "night" came from different words, "ehte" and "niht" respectively, which have both undergone a common substitution of -gh- for a hard "h", which was a Middle English scribal habit.
In French, "huit" came from "uit" when an "h" was added to avoid confusion with "vit". As for "nuit", it's a transformation of old French "nuict" derived from latin "noctem", which is an inclination of "nox".
The etymological link can be tracked further down, but the two words remain distinct, albeit similar.
So at least for English and French, the similarity between these two words is not due to a common root, but rather to similar ancestor words, and in some cases common transformations which contributed to the similarity of modern forms. I don't know other languages in your list, but they all seem to be either Latin or Germanic, so they likely share their etymological transformation with French and English respectively.
add a comment |
up vote
30
down vote
In English "eight" and "night" came from different words, "ehte" and "niht" respectively, which have both undergone a common substitution of -gh- for a hard "h", which was a Middle English scribal habit.
In French, "huit" came from "uit" when an "h" was added to avoid confusion with "vit". As for "nuit", it's a transformation of old French "nuict" derived from latin "noctem", which is an inclination of "nox".
The etymological link can be tracked further down, but the two words remain distinct, albeit similar.
So at least for English and French, the similarity between these two words is not due to a common root, but rather to similar ancestor words, and in some cases common transformations which contributed to the similarity of modern forms. I don't know other languages in your list, but they all seem to be either Latin or Germanic, so they likely share their etymological transformation with French and English respectively.
add a comment |
up vote
30
down vote
up vote
30
down vote
In English "eight" and "night" came from different words, "ehte" and "niht" respectively, which have both undergone a common substitution of -gh- for a hard "h", which was a Middle English scribal habit.
In French, "huit" came from "uit" when an "h" was added to avoid confusion with "vit". As for "nuit", it's a transformation of old French "nuict" derived from latin "noctem", which is an inclination of "nox".
The etymological link can be tracked further down, but the two words remain distinct, albeit similar.
So at least for English and French, the similarity between these two words is not due to a common root, but rather to similar ancestor words, and in some cases common transformations which contributed to the similarity of modern forms. I don't know other languages in your list, but they all seem to be either Latin or Germanic, so they likely share their etymological transformation with French and English respectively.
In English "eight" and "night" came from different words, "ehte" and "niht" respectively, which have both undergone a common substitution of -gh- for a hard "h", which was a Middle English scribal habit.
In French, "huit" came from "uit" when an "h" was added to avoid confusion with "vit". As for "nuit", it's a transformation of old French "nuict" derived from latin "noctem", which is an inclination of "nox".
The etymological link can be tracked further down, but the two words remain distinct, albeit similar.
So at least for English and French, the similarity between these two words is not due to a common root, but rather to similar ancestor words, and in some cases common transformations which contributed to the similarity of modern forms. I don't know other languages in your list, but they all seem to be either Latin or Germanic, so they likely share their etymological transformation with French and English respectively.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Dmitry Grigoryev
715414
715414
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
13
down vote
To pile on the answers debunking a particular language:
The list misspells both Swedish words to make them look more similar than they are. "Åtta" (number eight) is misspelled as "aetta" and "natt" (night) is misspelled as "natta".
"Åtta" /ˈɔtːa/ and "natt" /nat:/ are not very alike as I'm sure most will agree.
Count this as another vote for occam's razor and this being an urban legend.
(Source: My Swedish dictionary. Wiktionary unfortunately is short on IPA for these but consider it "common knowledge"...)
New contributor
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
4
I disagree that åtta and natt are not alike, but my opinion isn't important - and neither is yours. Please provide some references to support your claims about etymology. [I don't think there is a need to cite the common modern Swedish words, but this is about etymology, not the current pronunication and spelling.]
– Oddthinking♦
22 hours ago
1
lol. they are completely different have nothing in common except for having two t's in them.
– dan-klasson
7 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
13
down vote
To pile on the answers debunking a particular language:
The list misspells both Swedish words to make them look more similar than they are. "Åtta" (number eight) is misspelled as "aetta" and "natt" (night) is misspelled as "natta".
"Åtta" /ˈɔtːa/ and "natt" /nat:/ are not very alike as I'm sure most will agree.
Count this as another vote for occam's razor and this being an urban legend.
(Source: My Swedish dictionary. Wiktionary unfortunately is short on IPA for these but consider it "common knowledge"...)
New contributor
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
4
I disagree that åtta and natt are not alike, but my opinion isn't important - and neither is yours. Please provide some references to support your claims about etymology. [I don't think there is a need to cite the common modern Swedish words, but this is about etymology, not the current pronunication and spelling.]
– Oddthinking♦
22 hours ago
1
lol. they are completely different have nothing in common except for having two t's in them.
– dan-klasson
7 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
13
down vote
up vote
13
down vote
To pile on the answers debunking a particular language:
The list misspells both Swedish words to make them look more similar than they are. "Åtta" (number eight) is misspelled as "aetta" and "natt" (night) is misspelled as "natta".
"Åtta" /ˈɔtːa/ and "natt" /nat:/ are not very alike as I'm sure most will agree.
Count this as another vote for occam's razor and this being an urban legend.
(Source: My Swedish dictionary. Wiktionary unfortunately is short on IPA for these but consider it "common knowledge"...)
New contributor
To pile on the answers debunking a particular language:
The list misspells both Swedish words to make them look more similar than they are. "Åtta" (number eight) is misspelled as "aetta" and "natt" (night) is misspelled as "natta".
"Åtta" /ˈɔtːa/ and "natt" /nat:/ are not very alike as I'm sure most will agree.
Count this as another vote for occam's razor and this being an urban legend.
(Source: My Swedish dictionary. Wiktionary unfortunately is short on IPA for these but consider it "common knowledge"...)
New contributor
edited yesterday
New contributor
answered yesterday
Jolta
2394
2394
New contributor
New contributor
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
4
I disagree that åtta and natt are not alike, but my opinion isn't important - and neither is yours. Please provide some references to support your claims about etymology. [I don't think there is a need to cite the common modern Swedish words, but this is about etymology, not the current pronunication and spelling.]
– Oddthinking♦
22 hours ago
1
lol. they are completely different have nothing in common except for having two t's in them.
– dan-klasson
7 hours ago
add a comment |
4
I disagree that åtta and natt are not alike, but my opinion isn't important - and neither is yours. Please provide some references to support your claims about etymology. [I don't think there is a need to cite the common modern Swedish words, but this is about etymology, not the current pronunication and spelling.]
– Oddthinking♦
22 hours ago
1
lol. they are completely different have nothing in common except for having two t's in them.
– dan-klasson
7 hours ago
4
4
I disagree that åtta and natt are not alike, but my opinion isn't important - and neither is yours. Please provide some references to support your claims about etymology. [I don't think there is a need to cite the common modern Swedish words, but this is about etymology, not the current pronunication and spelling.]
– Oddthinking♦
22 hours ago
I disagree that åtta and natt are not alike, but my opinion isn't important - and neither is yours. Please provide some references to support your claims about etymology. [I don't think there is a need to cite the common modern Swedish words, but this is about etymology, not the current pronunication and spelling.]
– Oddthinking♦
22 hours ago
1
1
lol. they are completely different have nothing in common except for having two t's in them.
– dan-klasson
7 hours ago
lol. they are completely different have nothing in common except for having two t's in them.
– dan-klasson
7 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
Basically, what the poster has noted is that something like the Indo-European language family exists, and they're only looking in Western to Central Europe. For extra credit they could have spotted Basque, Finnish and Hungarian as outliers [GoogleTranslate gives me zortzi/gauean, kahdeksan/yö-, nyolc/éjszaka respectively for the pairs].
Basically language evolution isn't chaotic: If you start from two similar words in a language, then you have a better than good chance they are similar in a descended language as well, especially for old everyday words. Just like irregular verbs have a tendency of becoming more regular (within a language) over the generations, a population changes all its words in a related fashion when it's inadvertently developing a new language: Like Castilian Spanish not using V, any imported word with a V gets similarly changed (if it stays in use); most Spanish words originally starting on "SP" will now start on "ESP" (Spagna -> España), and "disport" remained "deportive" where the rest of Europe shortened to "sport".
So if you group all Latin descendants together (I looked at Romanian as it's often similar to Italian to my ears, yet I see why it wasn't included in the list!!), there's not much left.
Then you look at Latin's direct ancestor (and not a reconstructed indo-european root language), ancient Greek... There we have νῠ́ξ ("nux") that clearly caused Latin nox (and modern Greek "Nýchta", which I named my white cat) and ὀκτώ ("okto") that are practically unchanged in Latin and modern Greek, and I can only shrug my shoulders at the claim.
I have to say they were lucky with English and Germanic here: Often the word is very different in Germanic and Frankish roots, and it's a 50-50 coin toss which of the two will get used (German Kirche, Dutch Kerk and Scots Kirk go with English Church; where Latin Ecclesia gives French Église, Spanish Iglesia, Italian Chiesa). Or in verbs, where English often resembles more the perfect past than French does: e.g., Latin Neglegere (perfect: Neglectus) --> French Négliger and English To neglect.
[EDIT: I have not sourced as earlier comments pointed out that Wiktionary sources are discouraged/distrusted here.. It's already rather long and the previous posts have already debunked the argument, so it adds further background that is for the Skeptic to check!! You wouldn't be a skeptic if you believed my argument because of my personally-chosen and possibly -edited link? (Too meta?)]
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
4
Ancient Greek is not "Latin's direct ancestor". The question did mention Romanian: "roumain opt noapte"
– sumelic
yesterday
1
As sumelic says, the Greek forms are not ancestral to the Latin form. They all derive from the same proto-form. Also, yö- doesn’t need the hyphen, because it’s not an abstract root: the normal Finnish word for ‘evening/night’ is just yö. The Hungarian equivalent, and cognate, is just éj, whereas éjszaka is more like ‘(at) nighttime’.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
yesterday
2
Basque, Finnish, and Hungarian aren't Indo-European languages. Finnish and Hungarian are Uralic languages, while Basque is a language isolate.
– Mark
yesterday
Please provide some references to support your claims.
– Oddthinking♦
22 hours ago
2
@Mark I think that user3445853 knows this, and that it’s actually the whole point they are trying to make in that sentence: that had the OP included some non-IE languages, they would have spotted that they do not obey the pattern.
– Emil Jeřábek
9 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
Basically, what the poster has noted is that something like the Indo-European language family exists, and they're only looking in Western to Central Europe. For extra credit they could have spotted Basque, Finnish and Hungarian as outliers [GoogleTranslate gives me zortzi/gauean, kahdeksan/yö-, nyolc/éjszaka respectively for the pairs].
Basically language evolution isn't chaotic: If you start from two similar words in a language, then you have a better than good chance they are similar in a descended language as well, especially for old everyday words. Just like irregular verbs have a tendency of becoming more regular (within a language) over the generations, a population changes all its words in a related fashion when it's inadvertently developing a new language: Like Castilian Spanish not using V, any imported word with a V gets similarly changed (if it stays in use); most Spanish words originally starting on "SP" will now start on "ESP" (Spagna -> España), and "disport" remained "deportive" where the rest of Europe shortened to "sport".
So if you group all Latin descendants together (I looked at Romanian as it's often similar to Italian to my ears, yet I see why it wasn't included in the list!!), there's not much left.
Then you look at Latin's direct ancestor (and not a reconstructed indo-european root language), ancient Greek... There we have νῠ́ξ ("nux") that clearly caused Latin nox (and modern Greek "Nýchta", which I named my white cat) and ὀκτώ ("okto") that are practically unchanged in Latin and modern Greek, and I can only shrug my shoulders at the claim.
I have to say they were lucky with English and Germanic here: Often the word is very different in Germanic and Frankish roots, and it's a 50-50 coin toss which of the two will get used (German Kirche, Dutch Kerk and Scots Kirk go with English Church; where Latin Ecclesia gives French Église, Spanish Iglesia, Italian Chiesa). Or in verbs, where English often resembles more the perfect past than French does: e.g., Latin Neglegere (perfect: Neglectus) --> French Négliger and English To neglect.
[EDIT: I have not sourced as earlier comments pointed out that Wiktionary sources are discouraged/distrusted here.. It's already rather long and the previous posts have already debunked the argument, so it adds further background that is for the Skeptic to check!! You wouldn't be a skeptic if you believed my argument because of my personally-chosen and possibly -edited link? (Too meta?)]
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
4
Ancient Greek is not "Latin's direct ancestor". The question did mention Romanian: "roumain opt noapte"
– sumelic
yesterday
1
As sumelic says, the Greek forms are not ancestral to the Latin form. They all derive from the same proto-form. Also, yö- doesn’t need the hyphen, because it’s not an abstract root: the normal Finnish word for ‘evening/night’ is just yö. The Hungarian equivalent, and cognate, is just éj, whereas éjszaka is more like ‘(at) nighttime’.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
yesterday
2
Basque, Finnish, and Hungarian aren't Indo-European languages. Finnish and Hungarian are Uralic languages, while Basque is a language isolate.
– Mark
yesterday
Please provide some references to support your claims.
– Oddthinking♦
22 hours ago
2
@Mark I think that user3445853 knows this, and that it’s actually the whole point they are trying to make in that sentence: that had the OP included some non-IE languages, they would have spotted that they do not obey the pattern.
– Emil Jeřábek
9 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
up vote
8
down vote
Basically, what the poster has noted is that something like the Indo-European language family exists, and they're only looking in Western to Central Europe. For extra credit they could have spotted Basque, Finnish and Hungarian as outliers [GoogleTranslate gives me zortzi/gauean, kahdeksan/yö-, nyolc/éjszaka respectively for the pairs].
Basically language evolution isn't chaotic: If you start from two similar words in a language, then you have a better than good chance they are similar in a descended language as well, especially for old everyday words. Just like irregular verbs have a tendency of becoming more regular (within a language) over the generations, a population changes all its words in a related fashion when it's inadvertently developing a new language: Like Castilian Spanish not using V, any imported word with a V gets similarly changed (if it stays in use); most Spanish words originally starting on "SP" will now start on "ESP" (Spagna -> España), and "disport" remained "deportive" where the rest of Europe shortened to "sport".
So if you group all Latin descendants together (I looked at Romanian as it's often similar to Italian to my ears, yet I see why it wasn't included in the list!!), there's not much left.
Then you look at Latin's direct ancestor (and not a reconstructed indo-european root language), ancient Greek... There we have νῠ́ξ ("nux") that clearly caused Latin nox (and modern Greek "Nýchta", which I named my white cat) and ὀκτώ ("okto") that are practically unchanged in Latin and modern Greek, and I can only shrug my shoulders at the claim.
I have to say they were lucky with English and Germanic here: Often the word is very different in Germanic and Frankish roots, and it's a 50-50 coin toss which of the two will get used (German Kirche, Dutch Kerk and Scots Kirk go with English Church; where Latin Ecclesia gives French Église, Spanish Iglesia, Italian Chiesa). Or in verbs, where English often resembles more the perfect past than French does: e.g., Latin Neglegere (perfect: Neglectus) --> French Négliger and English To neglect.
[EDIT: I have not sourced as earlier comments pointed out that Wiktionary sources are discouraged/distrusted here.. It's already rather long and the previous posts have already debunked the argument, so it adds further background that is for the Skeptic to check!! You wouldn't be a skeptic if you believed my argument because of my personally-chosen and possibly -edited link? (Too meta?)]
Basically, what the poster has noted is that something like the Indo-European language family exists, and they're only looking in Western to Central Europe. For extra credit they could have spotted Basque, Finnish and Hungarian as outliers [GoogleTranslate gives me zortzi/gauean, kahdeksan/yö-, nyolc/éjszaka respectively for the pairs].
Basically language evolution isn't chaotic: If you start from two similar words in a language, then you have a better than good chance they are similar in a descended language as well, especially for old everyday words. Just like irregular verbs have a tendency of becoming more regular (within a language) over the generations, a population changes all its words in a related fashion when it's inadvertently developing a new language: Like Castilian Spanish not using V, any imported word with a V gets similarly changed (if it stays in use); most Spanish words originally starting on "SP" will now start on "ESP" (Spagna -> España), and "disport" remained "deportive" where the rest of Europe shortened to "sport".
So if you group all Latin descendants together (I looked at Romanian as it's often similar to Italian to my ears, yet I see why it wasn't included in the list!!), there's not much left.
Then you look at Latin's direct ancestor (and not a reconstructed indo-european root language), ancient Greek... There we have νῠ́ξ ("nux") that clearly caused Latin nox (and modern Greek "Nýchta", which I named my white cat) and ὀκτώ ("okto") that are practically unchanged in Latin and modern Greek, and I can only shrug my shoulders at the claim.
I have to say they were lucky with English and Germanic here: Often the word is very different in Germanic and Frankish roots, and it's a 50-50 coin toss which of the two will get used (German Kirche, Dutch Kerk and Scots Kirk go with English Church; where Latin Ecclesia gives French Église, Spanish Iglesia, Italian Chiesa). Or in verbs, where English often resembles more the perfect past than French does: e.g., Latin Neglegere (perfect: Neglectus) --> French Négliger and English To neglect.
[EDIT: I have not sourced as earlier comments pointed out that Wiktionary sources are discouraged/distrusted here.. It's already rather long and the previous posts have already debunked the argument, so it adds further background that is for the Skeptic to check!! You wouldn't be a skeptic if you believed my argument because of my personally-chosen and possibly -edited link? (Too meta?)]
edited 10 hours ago
answered yesterday
user3445853
1993
1993
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
Some of the information contained in this post requires additional references. Please edit to add citations to reliable sources that support the assertions made here. Unsourced material may be disputed or deleted.
4
Ancient Greek is not "Latin's direct ancestor". The question did mention Romanian: "roumain opt noapte"
– sumelic
yesterday
1
As sumelic says, the Greek forms are not ancestral to the Latin form. They all derive from the same proto-form. Also, yö- doesn’t need the hyphen, because it’s not an abstract root: the normal Finnish word for ‘evening/night’ is just yö. The Hungarian equivalent, and cognate, is just éj, whereas éjszaka is more like ‘(at) nighttime’.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
yesterday
2
Basque, Finnish, and Hungarian aren't Indo-European languages. Finnish and Hungarian are Uralic languages, while Basque is a language isolate.
– Mark
yesterday
Please provide some references to support your claims.
– Oddthinking♦
22 hours ago
2
@Mark I think that user3445853 knows this, and that it’s actually the whole point they are trying to make in that sentence: that had the OP included some non-IE languages, they would have spotted that they do not obey the pattern.
– Emil Jeřábek
9 hours ago
add a comment |
4
Ancient Greek is not "Latin's direct ancestor". The question did mention Romanian: "roumain opt noapte"
– sumelic
yesterday
1
As sumelic says, the Greek forms are not ancestral to the Latin form. They all derive from the same proto-form. Also, yö- doesn’t need the hyphen, because it’s not an abstract root: the normal Finnish word for ‘evening/night’ is just yö. The Hungarian equivalent, and cognate, is just éj, whereas éjszaka is more like ‘(at) nighttime’.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
yesterday
2
Basque, Finnish, and Hungarian aren't Indo-European languages. Finnish and Hungarian are Uralic languages, while Basque is a language isolate.
– Mark
yesterday
Please provide some references to support your claims.
– Oddthinking♦
22 hours ago
2
@Mark I think that user3445853 knows this, and that it’s actually the whole point they are trying to make in that sentence: that had the OP included some non-IE languages, they would have spotted that they do not obey the pattern.
– Emil Jeřábek
9 hours ago
4
4
Ancient Greek is not "Latin's direct ancestor". The question did mention Romanian: "roumain opt noapte"
– sumelic
yesterday
Ancient Greek is not "Latin's direct ancestor". The question did mention Romanian: "roumain opt noapte"
– sumelic
yesterday
1
1
As sumelic says, the Greek forms are not ancestral to the Latin form. They all derive from the same proto-form. Also, yö- doesn’t need the hyphen, because it’s not an abstract root: the normal Finnish word for ‘evening/night’ is just yö. The Hungarian equivalent, and cognate, is just éj, whereas éjszaka is more like ‘(at) nighttime’.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
yesterday
As sumelic says, the Greek forms are not ancestral to the Latin form. They all derive from the same proto-form. Also, yö- doesn’t need the hyphen, because it’s not an abstract root: the normal Finnish word for ‘evening/night’ is just yö. The Hungarian equivalent, and cognate, is just éj, whereas éjszaka is more like ‘(at) nighttime’.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
yesterday
2
2
Basque, Finnish, and Hungarian aren't Indo-European languages. Finnish and Hungarian are Uralic languages, while Basque is a language isolate.
– Mark
yesterday
Basque, Finnish, and Hungarian aren't Indo-European languages. Finnish and Hungarian are Uralic languages, while Basque is a language isolate.
– Mark
yesterday
Please provide some references to support your claims.
– Oddthinking♦
22 hours ago
Please provide some references to support your claims.
– Oddthinking♦
22 hours ago
2
2
@Mark I think that user3445853 knows this, and that it’s actually the whole point they are trying to make in that sentence: that had the OP included some non-IE languages, they would have spotted that they do not obey the pattern.
– Emil Jeřábek
9 hours ago
@Mark I think that user3445853 knows this, and that it’s actually the whole point they are trying to make in that sentence: that had the OP included some non-IE languages, they would have spotted that they do not obey the pattern.
– Emil Jeřábek
9 hours ago
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No, night and day come from old Norse.
https://glosbe.com/en/non/night
nátt { noun feminine }
The period between sunset and sunrise, when a location faces far away from the sun, thus when the sky is dark.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%B3tt
In Norse mythology, Nótt (Old Norse "night"[1]) is night personified, grandmother of Thor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagr
In Norse mythology, Dagr (Old Norse "day"[1]) is day personified.
Old Norse blended with early Germanic languages, from which English is derived.
add a comment |
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0
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No, night and day come from old Norse.
https://glosbe.com/en/non/night
nátt { noun feminine }
The period between sunset and sunrise, when a location faces far away from the sun, thus when the sky is dark.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%B3tt
In Norse mythology, Nótt (Old Norse "night"[1]) is night personified, grandmother of Thor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagr
In Norse mythology, Dagr (Old Norse "day"[1]) is day personified.
Old Norse blended with early Germanic languages, from which English is derived.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
No, night and day come from old Norse.
https://glosbe.com/en/non/night
nátt { noun feminine }
The period between sunset and sunrise, when a location faces far away from the sun, thus when the sky is dark.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%B3tt
In Norse mythology, Nótt (Old Norse "night"[1]) is night personified, grandmother of Thor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagr
In Norse mythology, Dagr (Old Norse "day"[1]) is day personified.
Old Norse blended with early Germanic languages, from which English is derived.
No, night and day come from old Norse.
https://glosbe.com/en/non/night
nátt { noun feminine }
The period between sunset and sunrise, when a location faces far away from the sun, thus when the sky is dark.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%B3tt
In Norse mythology, Nótt (Old Norse "night"[1]) is night personified, grandmother of Thor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagr
In Norse mythology, Dagr (Old Norse "day"[1]) is day personified.
Old Norse blended with early Germanic languages, from which English is derived.
answered 1 hour ago
Chloe
84211015
84211015
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Roberts French dictionary says that nuit (night) comes from the Latin noctis meaning nocturnal (vient du latin nox, noctis → noctambule, nocturne).
New contributor
1
Maybe I am. But n+octo (8 in Latin) falls also pretty close to noctis.
– bilbo_pingouin
2 days ago
1
Welcome to Skeptics! Can you please give a more precise reference? What dictionary is that, and which edition?
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
27
I think I'm missing something. Doesn't this answer just explain that the French word for "night" is related to a Latin root that also refers to "night" (which is not surprising at all given that French is a language that developed from Latin)?
– Schmuddi
2 days ago
6
In the body of the question it says "Furthermore, the word nuit was used as noit in older French, and derives from noctum (latin) and thus nox (littré in French)." This doesn't provide anything that wasn't already mentioned in the question.
– JMac
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
Roberts French dictionary says that nuit (night) comes from the Latin noctis meaning nocturnal (vient du latin nox, noctis → noctambule, nocturne).
New contributor
1
Maybe I am. But n+octo (8 in Latin) falls also pretty close to noctis.
– bilbo_pingouin
2 days ago
1
Welcome to Skeptics! Can you please give a more precise reference? What dictionary is that, and which edition?
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
27
I think I'm missing something. Doesn't this answer just explain that the French word for "night" is related to a Latin root that also refers to "night" (which is not surprising at all given that French is a language that developed from Latin)?
– Schmuddi
2 days ago
6
In the body of the question it says "Furthermore, the word nuit was used as noit in older French, and derives from noctum (latin) and thus nox (littré in French)." This doesn't provide anything that wasn't already mentioned in the question.
– JMac
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
up vote
-1
down vote
Roberts French dictionary says that nuit (night) comes from the Latin noctis meaning nocturnal (vient du latin nox, noctis → noctambule, nocturne).
New contributor
Roberts French dictionary says that nuit (night) comes from the Latin noctis meaning nocturnal (vient du latin nox, noctis → noctambule, nocturne).
New contributor
edited 2 days ago
Oddthinking♦
98.3k30408514
98.3k30408514
New contributor
answered 2 days ago
dubious f
1
1
New contributor
New contributor
1
Maybe I am. But n+octo (8 in Latin) falls also pretty close to noctis.
– bilbo_pingouin
2 days ago
1
Welcome to Skeptics! Can you please give a more precise reference? What dictionary is that, and which edition?
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
27
I think I'm missing something. Doesn't this answer just explain that the French word for "night" is related to a Latin root that also refers to "night" (which is not surprising at all given that French is a language that developed from Latin)?
– Schmuddi
2 days ago
6
In the body of the question it says "Furthermore, the word nuit was used as noit in older French, and derives from noctum (latin) and thus nox (littré in French)." This doesn't provide anything that wasn't already mentioned in the question.
– JMac
yesterday
add a comment |
1
Maybe I am. But n+octo (8 in Latin) falls also pretty close to noctis.
– bilbo_pingouin
2 days ago
1
Welcome to Skeptics! Can you please give a more precise reference? What dictionary is that, and which edition?
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
27
I think I'm missing something. Doesn't this answer just explain that the French word for "night" is related to a Latin root that also refers to "night" (which is not surprising at all given that French is a language that developed from Latin)?
– Schmuddi
2 days ago
6
In the body of the question it says "Furthermore, the word nuit was used as noit in older French, and derives from noctum (latin) and thus nox (littré in French)." This doesn't provide anything that wasn't already mentioned in the question.
– JMac
yesterday
1
1
Maybe I am. But n+octo (8 in Latin) falls also pretty close to noctis.
– bilbo_pingouin
2 days ago
Maybe I am. But n+octo (8 in Latin) falls also pretty close to noctis.
– bilbo_pingouin
2 days ago
1
1
Welcome to Skeptics! Can you please give a more precise reference? What dictionary is that, and which edition?
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
Welcome to Skeptics! Can you please give a more precise reference? What dictionary is that, and which edition?
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
27
27
I think I'm missing something. Doesn't this answer just explain that the French word for "night" is related to a Latin root that also refers to "night" (which is not surprising at all given that French is a language that developed from Latin)?
– Schmuddi
2 days ago
I think I'm missing something. Doesn't this answer just explain that the French word for "night" is related to a Latin root that also refers to "night" (which is not surprising at all given that French is a language that developed from Latin)?
– Schmuddi
2 days ago
6
6
In the body of the question it says "Furthermore, the word nuit was used as noit in older French, and derives from noctum (latin) and thus nox (littré in French)." This doesn't provide anything that wasn't already mentioned in the question.
– JMac
yesterday
In the body of the question it says "Furthermore, the word nuit was used as noit in older French, and derives from noctum (latin) and thus nox (littré in French)." This doesn't provide anything that wasn't already mentioned in the question.
– JMac
yesterday
add a comment |
76
I am a mathematician and have never seen N used as a symbol for infinity.
– Nate Eldredge
2 days ago
90
All languages in your list (excluding Esperanto) are etymologically related, and share a common ancestor language (Proto-Indoeuropean, PIE). If in PIE the word for "night" and "eight" were similar by accident so that the vowels are the same but the first word starts with a nasal, it wouldn't be surprising at all if languages descendent from PIE feature the same similarity between these words. I suspect that's the best answer that you'll get. A paper that explicitly shows that "night" and "eight" are phonologically similar in a selection of related languages is probably not very publishable.
– Schmuddi
2 days ago
12
Related: Linguistics.SE question
– Oddthinking♦
2 days ago
11
To sum up, hypothesis A: in each of these languages the word "Night" was independently derived from word "eight". Even in man-made Esperanto. Oh, and coincidentally in most of the languages where the word for number 8 does not resemble "O(K)T", the word for the dark period of the day bears little similarity to it. Hypothesis B: "night" and "eight" sounded similar in the ancestor of these languages, therefore they sound similar in modern languages. Looks like a job for Occam's razor.
– IMil
yesterday
44
@NateEldredge I bet someone thinks that aleph is a fancy N.
– hobbs
yesterday