How was the “elliptical dual” used?











up vote
2
down vote

favorite












In a comment on this answer, TKR brought up an interesting point of grammar I'd never heard of.




Αἴαντε [Ajax-DUAL] is an interesting case. Though readers of Homer since antiquity have interpreted it as "the two Ajaxes", this seems to be a misunderstanding: it originally meant "Ajax and Teucer", an Indo-European "elliptical dual" (where dual of X means "X and someone closely associated with X").




This sounds interesting, but I've never heard of an "elliptical dual" before. How and when was it used in Greek? Clear, unambiguous examples (i.e. where it's clear it doesn't mean "the two X") would be especially appreciated.










share|improve this question
























  • I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
    – Alex B.
    1 hour ago















up vote
2
down vote

favorite












In a comment on this answer, TKR brought up an interesting point of grammar I'd never heard of.




Αἴαντε [Ajax-DUAL] is an interesting case. Though readers of Homer since antiquity have interpreted it as "the two Ajaxes", this seems to be a misunderstanding: it originally meant "Ajax and Teucer", an Indo-European "elliptical dual" (where dual of X means "X and someone closely associated with X").




This sounds interesting, but I've never heard of an "elliptical dual" before. How and when was it used in Greek? Clear, unambiguous examples (i.e. where it's clear it doesn't mean "the two X") would be especially appreciated.










share|improve this question
























  • I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
    – Alex B.
    1 hour ago













up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











In a comment on this answer, TKR brought up an interesting point of grammar I'd never heard of.




Αἴαντε [Ajax-DUAL] is an interesting case. Though readers of Homer since antiquity have interpreted it as "the two Ajaxes", this seems to be a misunderstanding: it originally meant "Ajax and Teucer", an Indo-European "elliptical dual" (where dual of X means "X and someone closely associated with X").




This sounds interesting, but I've never heard of an "elliptical dual" before. How and when was it used in Greek? Clear, unambiguous examples (i.e. where it's clear it doesn't mean "the two X") would be especially appreciated.










share|improve this question















In a comment on this answer, TKR brought up an interesting point of grammar I'd never heard of.




Αἴαντε [Ajax-DUAL] is an interesting case. Though readers of Homer since antiquity have interpreted it as "the two Ajaxes", this seems to be a misunderstanding: it originally meant "Ajax and Teucer", an Indo-European "elliptical dual" (where dual of X means "X and someone closely associated with X").




This sounds interesting, but I've never heard of an "elliptical dual" before. How and when was it used in Greek? Clear, unambiguous examples (i.e. where it's clear it doesn't mean "the two X") would be especially appreciated.







greek grammar-identification dual






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 4 hours ago

























asked 4 hours ago









Draconis

13.9k11757




13.9k11757












  • I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
    – Alex B.
    1 hour ago


















  • I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
    – Alex B.
    1 hour ago
















I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
1 hour ago




I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
1 hour ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
4
down vote













I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.



In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:





  • pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"


  • mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"


  • Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"


  • ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"


  • dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"


There are similar examples in Avestan and possibly in Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has an example using plural morphology: Castorēs, which means "Castor and Pollux" (not "several people named Castor").






share|improve this answer





















  • In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
    – Colin Fine
    3 hours ago










  • @ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
    – TKR
    3 hours ago




















up vote
2
down vote













Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:



al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”



al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”



al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”



al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.






share|improve this answer





















    Your Answer








    StackExchange.ready(function() {
    var channelOptions = {
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "644"
    };
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
    createEditor();
    });
    }
    else {
    createEditor();
    }
    });

    function createEditor() {
    StackExchange.prepareEditor({
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader: {
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    },
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    });


    }
    });














    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function () {
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2flatin.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f7698%2fhow-was-the-elliptical-dual-used%23new-answer', 'question_page');
    }
    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes








    up vote
    4
    down vote













    I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.



    In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:





    • pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"


    • mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"


    • Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"


    • ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"


    • dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"


    There are similar examples in Avestan and possibly in Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has an example using plural morphology: Castorēs, which means "Castor and Pollux" (not "several people named Castor").






    share|improve this answer





















    • In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
      – Colin Fine
      3 hours ago










    • @ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
      – TKR
      3 hours ago

















    up vote
    4
    down vote













    I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.



    In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:





    • pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"


    • mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"


    • Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"


    • ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"


    • dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"


    There are similar examples in Avestan and possibly in Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has an example using plural morphology: Castorēs, which means "Castor and Pollux" (not "several people named Castor").






    share|improve this answer





















    • In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
      – Colin Fine
      3 hours ago










    • @ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
      – TKR
      3 hours ago















    up vote
    4
    down vote










    up vote
    4
    down vote









    I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.



    In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:





    • pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"


    • mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"


    • Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"


    • ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"


    • dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"


    There are similar examples in Avestan and possibly in Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has an example using plural morphology: Castorēs, which means "Castor and Pollux" (not "several people named Castor").






    share|improve this answer












    I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.



    In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:





    • pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"


    • mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"


    • Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"


    • ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"


    • dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"


    There are similar examples in Avestan and possibly in Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has an example using plural morphology: Castorēs, which means "Castor and Pollux" (not "several people named Castor").







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 4 hours ago









    TKR

    13.3k2755




    13.3k2755












    • In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
      – Colin Fine
      3 hours ago










    • @ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
      – TKR
      3 hours ago




















    • In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
      – Colin Fine
      3 hours ago










    • @ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
      – TKR
      3 hours ago


















    In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
    – Colin Fine
    3 hours ago




    In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
    – Colin Fine
    3 hours ago












    @ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
    – TKR
    3 hours ago






    @ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
    – TKR
    3 hours ago












    up vote
    2
    down vote













    Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:



    al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”



    al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”



    al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”



    al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.






    share|improve this answer

























      up vote
      2
      down vote













      Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:



      al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”



      al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”



      al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”



      al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.






      share|improve this answer























        up vote
        2
        down vote










        up vote
        2
        down vote









        Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:



        al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”



        al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”



        al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”



        al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.






        share|improve this answer












        Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:



        al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”



        al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”



        al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”



        al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 3 hours ago









        fdb

        10.4k11127




        10.4k11127






























            draft saved

            draft discarded




















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to Latin Language Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid



            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.





            Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.


            Please pay close attention to the following guidance:


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid



            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function () {
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2flatin.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f7698%2fhow-was-the-elliptical-dual-used%23new-answer', 'question_page');
            }
            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            How did Captain America manage to do this?

            迪纳利

            南乌拉尔铁路局