In AN 4.171, what is “reincarnation where the intention of others is effective”?











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Bhikkhu Sujato's translation of AN 4.171 says:




Mendicants, there are four kinds of reincarnation. Cattārome,
bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābhā.



What four? Katame cattāro?



There is a reincarnation where one’s own intention is effective, not
that of others. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ
attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.



There is a reincarnation where the intention of others is effective,
not one’s own. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ
attabhāvapaṭilābhe parasañcetanā kamati, no attasañcetanā.



There is a reincarnation where both one’s own and others’ intentions
are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ
attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā ca kamati parasañcetanā ca.



There is a reincarnation where neither one’s own nor others’
intentions are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ
attabhāvapaṭilābhe nevattasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.



These are the four kinds of reincarnation.” Ime kho, bhikkhave,
cattāro attabhāvapaṭilābhā”ti.




What is "reincarnation where the intention of others is effective"?










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    Bhikkhu Sujato's translation of AN 4.171 says:




    Mendicants, there are four kinds of reincarnation. Cattārome,
    bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābhā.



    What four? Katame cattāro?



    There is a reincarnation where one’s own intention is effective, not
    that of others. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ
    attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.



    There is a reincarnation where the intention of others is effective,
    not one’s own. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ
    attabhāvapaṭilābhe parasañcetanā kamati, no attasañcetanā.



    There is a reincarnation where both one’s own and others’ intentions
    are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ
    attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā ca kamati parasañcetanā ca.



    There is a reincarnation where neither one’s own nor others’
    intentions are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ
    attabhāvapaṭilābhe nevattasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.



    These are the four kinds of reincarnation.” Ime kho, bhikkhave,
    cattāro attabhāvapaṭilābhā”ti.




    What is "reincarnation where the intention of others is effective"?










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      up vote
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      Bhikkhu Sujato's translation of AN 4.171 says:




      Mendicants, there are four kinds of reincarnation. Cattārome,
      bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābhā.



      What four? Katame cattāro?



      There is a reincarnation where one’s own intention is effective, not
      that of others. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ
      attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.



      There is a reincarnation where the intention of others is effective,
      not one’s own. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ
      attabhāvapaṭilābhe parasañcetanā kamati, no attasañcetanā.



      There is a reincarnation where both one’s own and others’ intentions
      are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ
      attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā ca kamati parasañcetanā ca.



      There is a reincarnation where neither one’s own nor others’
      intentions are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ
      attabhāvapaṭilābhe nevattasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.



      These are the four kinds of reincarnation.” Ime kho, bhikkhave,
      cattāro attabhāvapaṭilābhā”ti.




      What is "reincarnation where the intention of others is effective"?










      share|improve this question















      Bhikkhu Sujato's translation of AN 4.171 says:




      Mendicants, there are four kinds of reincarnation. Cattārome,
      bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābhā.



      What four? Katame cattāro?



      There is a reincarnation where one’s own intention is effective, not
      that of others. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ
      attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.



      There is a reincarnation where the intention of others is effective,
      not one’s own. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ
      attabhāvapaṭilābhe parasañcetanā kamati, no attasañcetanā.



      There is a reincarnation where both one’s own and others’ intentions
      are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ
      attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā ca kamati parasañcetanā ca.



      There is a reincarnation where neither one’s own nor others’
      intentions are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ
      attabhāvapaṭilābhe nevattasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.



      These are the four kinds of reincarnation.” Ime kho, bhikkhave,
      cattāro attabhāvapaṭilābhā”ti.




      What is "reincarnation where the intention of others is effective"?







      pali-canon






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      edited Dec 3 at 1:52

























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          Perhaps this is what refers to in Abhidhamma as prompted and unprompted.
          For instance, a person can kill someone with his own intention or intention of another person (prompted by someone else). One can influence another to kill.
          I may be wrong.






          share|improve this answer




























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            down vote













            Per commentary, this passage refers to "devas corrupted by the mind" (Manopadosika-deva), living in the world of the Four Great Kings. When they get angry with one another their mutual anger leads to their mutual deaths.



            Here are descriptions of Manopadosika-deva from different sources:



            Buddhist Dictionary. Manual of Buddhist Terms & Doctrines (4th Edition) by Ven. Nyanatiloka:




            Manopadosika-deva: ‘the celestial beings corruptible
            by temper’, are a class of devas (q.v.) of the sensuous
            sphere. “They spend their time in becoming annoyed
            with one another, and getting into a temper, and thus
            by being bodily and mentally exhausted, they pass
            from that world” (D. 1; 24).




            The "Dictionary of Pali Proper Names" by G. P. Malalasekera:




            A class of devas living in the Cātummahārājika world (DA.i.114; AA.ii.544; MNid.108). They burn continually with envy one against another (Buddhaghosa relates a story illustrating this in DA.i.114) and their hearts become ill disposed and debauched. Their bodies thus become feeble and their minds imbecile, and, as a consequence, they fall from their state (D.i.20; iii.32). The Manopadosikā were among those present at the preaching of the Mahāsamaya Sutta (D.ii.260). They are so called because their minds are debauched by envy (dosassa anudahanatāya) (VibhA.498).




            Brahmajāla Sutta (DN 1) translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi:




            There are, bhikkhus, certain gods called 'corrupted by mind.' These gods contemplate one another with excessive envy. As a consequence their minds becomes corrupted by anger towards one another. When their minds are corrupted by anger, their bodies and minds become exhausted and consequently, they pass away from that plane.




            Brahmajāla Sutta (DN 1) translated by Bhikkhu Sujato:




            There are gods named ‘malevolent’. They spend too much time gazing at each other, so they grow angry with each other, and their bodies and minds get tired. They pass away from that group of gods.




            So, one deva's hatred towards another deva provokes hatred in that deva towards the first, causing a vicious circle, and this very hatred exhausts their spirits until they fall from their godly state.



            One deva's hatred is not his own deliberate intention but is merely a reaction to another deva's hatred. Therefore the deva falls from his state and comes to a different state through an "intention of other".



            It's interesting how the vicious circle of judgement starts not through one of the devas performing some unwelcomed act to another, but rather through both spending too much time wondering about the other's attitude to oneself.



            I suppose this basically means that not all karma is strictly personal. While in the simplest cases sentient beings inherit their own karma, there are cases when they create (bad) karma for one another, and there are cases when a karmic pattern emerges spontaneously from a background of ignorance - not through anyone's fault.



            On a side note, per my (Russian) dictionary, attabhāvapaṭilābhe is not "reincarnation" but "a state of personal existence".






            share|improve this answer



















            • 1




              For the last paragraph, it is reincarnation because of it's previous topic is about reincarnation. See [264] of this link 84000.org/tipitaka/read/…
              – Bonn
              1 hour ago


















            up vote
            0
            down vote













            It seems the compound "attabhāvapaṭilābhe" means "acquisition of self becoming" or, as often translated, "acquisition of personality".



            For example, if parents, for example, allow their children to make their own decisions in life, the children will develop a personality based on their own decisions.



            But if parents, for example, are very domineering & even abusive, their children will develop personalities reflective of the violence of the parents.



            Or when people are brainwashed by political rulers, such as Mao, Stalin, Hitler or Obama; or by the corporate or pornographic mass-media, the acquired personalty will be reflective of brainwashing.



            In other words, it appears the translation of "reincarnation" is very imaginative.






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              I agree with Andrei Volkov explanation, which follows to it's atthakathā. However, for the perfect understood by sutta, not only atthakathā, I write this answer.




              1. There is a reincarnation where one’s own intention is effective, not that of others. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.


              By atthakathā, above text refers to DN Brahmajālasuttaṃ:





              1. ‘And what is the second?


              ‘There are, brethren, certain gods called the “Debauched by Pleasure”
              [155]. ‘For ages they pass their time in the pursuit of the laughter
              and sport of sensual lusts. In consequence thereof their
              self-possession is corrupted, and through the loss of their
              self-control they fall from that state [156].




              1. ‘Now it might well be, brethren, that some being, on his
                falling from that state, should come hither. And having come hither he
                should, as in the last case, become a recluse, and acquire the power
                of recollecting his last birth, but only his last one.


              2. ‘And he would say to himself: “Those gods who are not debauched by pleasure are stedfast, immutable, eternal, of a nature that knows no
                change, and they will remain so forever and ever. [20] But we-who fell
                from that state, having lost our self-control through being debauched
                by pleasure-we have come hither as being impermanent, mutable, limited
                in duration of life.”





              By atthakathā, above text refers to MN kandarakasuttaṃ:




              1. There is a reincarnation where the intention of others is effective, not one’s own. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe parasañcetanā kamati, no attasañcetanā.



              Bhikkhus, which person torments others yoked to it? Bhikkhus, here a certain person is a killer of pigs, goats, birds, a hunter of wild animals, a fisherman, a robber, a highway robber, one who keeps a prison, or engaged in any other vicious activity. This person torments others yoked to tormenting others.





              1. There is a reincarnation where both one’s own and others’ intentions are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā ca kamati parasañcetanā ca.


              By atthakathā, above text refers to DN Brahmajālasuttaṃ:





              1. ‘And what is the third?


              ‘There are, brethren, certain gods called "the Debauched in Mind
              [157].” They burn continually with envy [158] one against another, and
              being thus irritated, their hearts become ill-disposed towards each
              other, and being thus debauched, their bodies become feeble, and their
              minds imbecile. And those gods fall from that state.




              1. ‘Now it might well be, brethren, that some [q 034/] being, on his falling from that state, should come hither; and having become a
                recluse should ‘as in the other cases, acquire the power of
                recollecting his last birth, but only his last one.


              2. ‘And lie would say to himself: “Those gods who are not debauched in mind do not continually burn with envy against each other, so their
                hearts do not become evil disposed one towards another, nor their
                bodies feeble and their minds imbecile. Therefore they fall not from
                that state; they are stedfast, immutable, eternal, of a nature that
                knows no change, and they will remain so forever and ever. [21] But we
                were corrupted in mind, being constantly excited by envy against one
                another. And being thus envious and corrupt our bodies became feeble,
                and our minds imbecile, and we fell from that state, and have come
                hither as Being impermanent, mutable, limited in duration of life.”



              ‘This, brethren, is the third case.





              1. There is a reincarnation where neither one’s own nor others’ intentions are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe nevattasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.


              By atthakathā, above text refers to DN Dānamahapphalasutta:




              "Having given this gift seeking his own profit — with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself, [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death' — on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Devas of the Four Great Kings. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.



              "Having given this gift with the thought, 'Giving is good,' on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Devas of the Thirty-three. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.



              ...




              Why I have to link? Theravāda tradition never allow to explain tipitaka without reference, linking. It's weird and not professional. If buddhaghosa wrote something without the reference, he wouldn't be allowed to translate atthakathā back to pāli. So, the link, which I have given, show tipitaka memorizer's thought.






              share|improve this answer























              • Why I have to link? Theravāda tradition never allow to explain tipitaka without reference, linking. It's weird and not professional. If buddhaghosa wrote something without the reference, he wouldn't be allowed to translate atthakathā back to pāli. So, the link, which I have given, show tipitaka memorizer's thought.
                – Bonn
                5 mins ago











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              4 Answers
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              up vote
              1
              down vote



              accepted










              Perhaps this is what refers to in Abhidhamma as prompted and unprompted.
              For instance, a person can kill someone with his own intention or intention of another person (prompted by someone else). One can influence another to kill.
              I may be wrong.






              share|improve this answer

























                up vote
                1
                down vote



                accepted










                Perhaps this is what refers to in Abhidhamma as prompted and unprompted.
                For instance, a person can kill someone with his own intention or intention of another person (prompted by someone else). One can influence another to kill.
                I may be wrong.






                share|improve this answer























                  up vote
                  1
                  down vote



                  accepted







                  up vote
                  1
                  down vote



                  accepted






                  Perhaps this is what refers to in Abhidhamma as prompted and unprompted.
                  For instance, a person can kill someone with his own intention or intention of another person (prompted by someone else). One can influence another to kill.
                  I may be wrong.






                  share|improve this answer












                  Perhaps this is what refers to in Abhidhamma as prompted and unprompted.
                  For instance, a person can kill someone with his own intention or intention of another person (prompted by someone else). One can influence another to kill.
                  I may be wrong.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered Dec 3 at 4:18









                  SarathW

                  2,381212




                  2,381212






















                      up vote
                      3
                      down vote













                      Per commentary, this passage refers to "devas corrupted by the mind" (Manopadosika-deva), living in the world of the Four Great Kings. When they get angry with one another their mutual anger leads to their mutual deaths.



                      Here are descriptions of Manopadosika-deva from different sources:



                      Buddhist Dictionary. Manual of Buddhist Terms & Doctrines (4th Edition) by Ven. Nyanatiloka:




                      Manopadosika-deva: ‘the celestial beings corruptible
                      by temper’, are a class of devas (q.v.) of the sensuous
                      sphere. “They spend their time in becoming annoyed
                      with one another, and getting into a temper, and thus
                      by being bodily and mentally exhausted, they pass
                      from that world” (D. 1; 24).




                      The "Dictionary of Pali Proper Names" by G. P. Malalasekera:




                      A class of devas living in the Cātummahārājika world (DA.i.114; AA.ii.544; MNid.108). They burn continually with envy one against another (Buddhaghosa relates a story illustrating this in DA.i.114) and their hearts become ill disposed and debauched. Their bodies thus become feeble and their minds imbecile, and, as a consequence, they fall from their state (D.i.20; iii.32). The Manopadosikā were among those present at the preaching of the Mahāsamaya Sutta (D.ii.260). They are so called because their minds are debauched by envy (dosassa anudahanatāya) (VibhA.498).




                      Brahmajāla Sutta (DN 1) translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi:




                      There are, bhikkhus, certain gods called 'corrupted by mind.' These gods contemplate one another with excessive envy. As a consequence their minds becomes corrupted by anger towards one another. When their minds are corrupted by anger, their bodies and minds become exhausted and consequently, they pass away from that plane.




                      Brahmajāla Sutta (DN 1) translated by Bhikkhu Sujato:




                      There are gods named ‘malevolent’. They spend too much time gazing at each other, so they grow angry with each other, and their bodies and minds get tired. They pass away from that group of gods.




                      So, one deva's hatred towards another deva provokes hatred in that deva towards the first, causing a vicious circle, and this very hatred exhausts their spirits until they fall from their godly state.



                      One deva's hatred is not his own deliberate intention but is merely a reaction to another deva's hatred. Therefore the deva falls from his state and comes to a different state through an "intention of other".



                      It's interesting how the vicious circle of judgement starts not through one of the devas performing some unwelcomed act to another, but rather through both spending too much time wondering about the other's attitude to oneself.



                      I suppose this basically means that not all karma is strictly personal. While in the simplest cases sentient beings inherit their own karma, there are cases when they create (bad) karma for one another, and there are cases when a karmic pattern emerges spontaneously from a background of ignorance - not through anyone's fault.



                      On a side note, per my (Russian) dictionary, attabhāvapaṭilābhe is not "reincarnation" but "a state of personal existence".






                      share|improve this answer



















                      • 1




                        For the last paragraph, it is reincarnation because of it's previous topic is about reincarnation. See [264] of this link 84000.org/tipitaka/read/…
                        – Bonn
                        1 hour ago















                      up vote
                      3
                      down vote













                      Per commentary, this passage refers to "devas corrupted by the mind" (Manopadosika-deva), living in the world of the Four Great Kings. When they get angry with one another their mutual anger leads to their mutual deaths.



                      Here are descriptions of Manopadosika-deva from different sources:



                      Buddhist Dictionary. Manual of Buddhist Terms & Doctrines (4th Edition) by Ven. Nyanatiloka:




                      Manopadosika-deva: ‘the celestial beings corruptible
                      by temper’, are a class of devas (q.v.) of the sensuous
                      sphere. “They spend their time in becoming annoyed
                      with one another, and getting into a temper, and thus
                      by being bodily and mentally exhausted, they pass
                      from that world” (D. 1; 24).




                      The "Dictionary of Pali Proper Names" by G. P. Malalasekera:




                      A class of devas living in the Cātummahārājika world (DA.i.114; AA.ii.544; MNid.108). They burn continually with envy one against another (Buddhaghosa relates a story illustrating this in DA.i.114) and their hearts become ill disposed and debauched. Their bodies thus become feeble and their minds imbecile, and, as a consequence, they fall from their state (D.i.20; iii.32). The Manopadosikā were among those present at the preaching of the Mahāsamaya Sutta (D.ii.260). They are so called because their minds are debauched by envy (dosassa anudahanatāya) (VibhA.498).




                      Brahmajāla Sutta (DN 1) translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi:




                      There are, bhikkhus, certain gods called 'corrupted by mind.' These gods contemplate one another with excessive envy. As a consequence their minds becomes corrupted by anger towards one another. When their minds are corrupted by anger, their bodies and minds become exhausted and consequently, they pass away from that plane.




                      Brahmajāla Sutta (DN 1) translated by Bhikkhu Sujato:




                      There are gods named ‘malevolent’. They spend too much time gazing at each other, so they grow angry with each other, and their bodies and minds get tired. They pass away from that group of gods.




                      So, one deva's hatred towards another deva provokes hatred in that deva towards the first, causing a vicious circle, and this very hatred exhausts their spirits until they fall from their godly state.



                      One deva's hatred is not his own deliberate intention but is merely a reaction to another deva's hatred. Therefore the deva falls from his state and comes to a different state through an "intention of other".



                      It's interesting how the vicious circle of judgement starts not through one of the devas performing some unwelcomed act to another, but rather through both spending too much time wondering about the other's attitude to oneself.



                      I suppose this basically means that not all karma is strictly personal. While in the simplest cases sentient beings inherit their own karma, there are cases when they create (bad) karma for one another, and there are cases when a karmic pattern emerges spontaneously from a background of ignorance - not through anyone's fault.



                      On a side note, per my (Russian) dictionary, attabhāvapaṭilābhe is not "reincarnation" but "a state of personal existence".






                      share|improve this answer



















                      • 1




                        For the last paragraph, it is reincarnation because of it's previous topic is about reincarnation. See [264] of this link 84000.org/tipitaka/read/…
                        – Bonn
                        1 hour ago













                      up vote
                      3
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      3
                      down vote









                      Per commentary, this passage refers to "devas corrupted by the mind" (Manopadosika-deva), living in the world of the Four Great Kings. When they get angry with one another their mutual anger leads to their mutual deaths.



                      Here are descriptions of Manopadosika-deva from different sources:



                      Buddhist Dictionary. Manual of Buddhist Terms & Doctrines (4th Edition) by Ven. Nyanatiloka:




                      Manopadosika-deva: ‘the celestial beings corruptible
                      by temper’, are a class of devas (q.v.) of the sensuous
                      sphere. “They spend their time in becoming annoyed
                      with one another, and getting into a temper, and thus
                      by being bodily and mentally exhausted, they pass
                      from that world” (D. 1; 24).




                      The "Dictionary of Pali Proper Names" by G. P. Malalasekera:




                      A class of devas living in the Cātummahārājika world (DA.i.114; AA.ii.544; MNid.108). They burn continually with envy one against another (Buddhaghosa relates a story illustrating this in DA.i.114) and their hearts become ill disposed and debauched. Their bodies thus become feeble and their minds imbecile, and, as a consequence, they fall from their state (D.i.20; iii.32). The Manopadosikā were among those present at the preaching of the Mahāsamaya Sutta (D.ii.260). They are so called because their minds are debauched by envy (dosassa anudahanatāya) (VibhA.498).




                      Brahmajāla Sutta (DN 1) translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi:




                      There are, bhikkhus, certain gods called 'corrupted by mind.' These gods contemplate one another with excessive envy. As a consequence their minds becomes corrupted by anger towards one another. When their minds are corrupted by anger, their bodies and minds become exhausted and consequently, they pass away from that plane.




                      Brahmajāla Sutta (DN 1) translated by Bhikkhu Sujato:




                      There are gods named ‘malevolent’. They spend too much time gazing at each other, so they grow angry with each other, and their bodies and minds get tired. They pass away from that group of gods.




                      So, one deva's hatred towards another deva provokes hatred in that deva towards the first, causing a vicious circle, and this very hatred exhausts their spirits until they fall from their godly state.



                      One deva's hatred is not his own deliberate intention but is merely a reaction to another deva's hatred. Therefore the deva falls from his state and comes to a different state through an "intention of other".



                      It's interesting how the vicious circle of judgement starts not through one of the devas performing some unwelcomed act to another, but rather through both spending too much time wondering about the other's attitude to oneself.



                      I suppose this basically means that not all karma is strictly personal. While in the simplest cases sentient beings inherit their own karma, there are cases when they create (bad) karma for one another, and there are cases when a karmic pattern emerges spontaneously from a background of ignorance - not through anyone's fault.



                      On a side note, per my (Russian) dictionary, attabhāvapaṭilābhe is not "reincarnation" but "a state of personal existence".






                      share|improve this answer














                      Per commentary, this passage refers to "devas corrupted by the mind" (Manopadosika-deva), living in the world of the Four Great Kings. When they get angry with one another their mutual anger leads to their mutual deaths.



                      Here are descriptions of Manopadosika-deva from different sources:



                      Buddhist Dictionary. Manual of Buddhist Terms & Doctrines (4th Edition) by Ven. Nyanatiloka:




                      Manopadosika-deva: ‘the celestial beings corruptible
                      by temper’, are a class of devas (q.v.) of the sensuous
                      sphere. “They spend their time in becoming annoyed
                      with one another, and getting into a temper, and thus
                      by being bodily and mentally exhausted, they pass
                      from that world” (D. 1; 24).




                      The "Dictionary of Pali Proper Names" by G. P. Malalasekera:




                      A class of devas living in the Cātummahārājika world (DA.i.114; AA.ii.544; MNid.108). They burn continually with envy one against another (Buddhaghosa relates a story illustrating this in DA.i.114) and their hearts become ill disposed and debauched. Their bodies thus become feeble and their minds imbecile, and, as a consequence, they fall from their state (D.i.20; iii.32). The Manopadosikā were among those present at the preaching of the Mahāsamaya Sutta (D.ii.260). They are so called because their minds are debauched by envy (dosassa anudahanatāya) (VibhA.498).




                      Brahmajāla Sutta (DN 1) translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi:




                      There are, bhikkhus, certain gods called 'corrupted by mind.' These gods contemplate one another with excessive envy. As a consequence their minds becomes corrupted by anger towards one another. When their minds are corrupted by anger, their bodies and minds become exhausted and consequently, they pass away from that plane.




                      Brahmajāla Sutta (DN 1) translated by Bhikkhu Sujato:




                      There are gods named ‘malevolent’. They spend too much time gazing at each other, so they grow angry with each other, and their bodies and minds get tired. They pass away from that group of gods.




                      So, one deva's hatred towards another deva provokes hatred in that deva towards the first, causing a vicious circle, and this very hatred exhausts their spirits until they fall from their godly state.



                      One deva's hatred is not his own deliberate intention but is merely a reaction to another deva's hatred. Therefore the deva falls from his state and comes to a different state through an "intention of other".



                      It's interesting how the vicious circle of judgement starts not through one of the devas performing some unwelcomed act to another, but rather through both spending too much time wondering about the other's attitude to oneself.



                      I suppose this basically means that not all karma is strictly personal. While in the simplest cases sentient beings inherit their own karma, there are cases when they create (bad) karma for one another, and there are cases when a karmic pattern emerges spontaneously from a background of ignorance - not through anyone's fault.



                      On a side note, per my (Russian) dictionary, attabhāvapaṭilābhe is not "reincarnation" but "a state of personal existence".







                      share|improve this answer














                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited Dec 3 at 17:09

























                      answered Dec 3 at 4:40









                      Andrei Volkov

                      37.1k330107




                      37.1k330107








                      • 1




                        For the last paragraph, it is reincarnation because of it's previous topic is about reincarnation. See [264] of this link 84000.org/tipitaka/read/…
                        – Bonn
                        1 hour ago














                      • 1




                        For the last paragraph, it is reincarnation because of it's previous topic is about reincarnation. See [264] of this link 84000.org/tipitaka/read/…
                        – Bonn
                        1 hour ago








                      1




                      1




                      For the last paragraph, it is reincarnation because of it's previous topic is about reincarnation. See [264] of this link 84000.org/tipitaka/read/…
                      – Bonn
                      1 hour ago




                      For the last paragraph, it is reincarnation because of it's previous topic is about reincarnation. See [264] of this link 84000.org/tipitaka/read/…
                      – Bonn
                      1 hour ago










                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote













                      It seems the compound "attabhāvapaṭilābhe" means "acquisition of self becoming" or, as often translated, "acquisition of personality".



                      For example, if parents, for example, allow their children to make their own decisions in life, the children will develop a personality based on their own decisions.



                      But if parents, for example, are very domineering & even abusive, their children will develop personalities reflective of the violence of the parents.



                      Or when people are brainwashed by political rulers, such as Mao, Stalin, Hitler or Obama; or by the corporate or pornographic mass-media, the acquired personalty will be reflective of brainwashing.



                      In other words, it appears the translation of "reincarnation" is very imaginative.






                      share|improve this answer



























                        up vote
                        0
                        down vote













                        It seems the compound "attabhāvapaṭilābhe" means "acquisition of self becoming" or, as often translated, "acquisition of personality".



                        For example, if parents, for example, allow their children to make their own decisions in life, the children will develop a personality based on their own decisions.



                        But if parents, for example, are very domineering & even abusive, their children will develop personalities reflective of the violence of the parents.



                        Or when people are brainwashed by political rulers, such as Mao, Stalin, Hitler or Obama; or by the corporate or pornographic mass-media, the acquired personalty will be reflective of brainwashing.



                        In other words, it appears the translation of "reincarnation" is very imaginative.






                        share|improve this answer

























                          up vote
                          0
                          down vote










                          up vote
                          0
                          down vote









                          It seems the compound "attabhāvapaṭilābhe" means "acquisition of self becoming" or, as often translated, "acquisition of personality".



                          For example, if parents, for example, allow their children to make their own decisions in life, the children will develop a personality based on their own decisions.



                          But if parents, for example, are very domineering & even abusive, their children will develop personalities reflective of the violence of the parents.



                          Or when people are brainwashed by political rulers, such as Mao, Stalin, Hitler or Obama; or by the corporate or pornographic mass-media, the acquired personalty will be reflective of brainwashing.



                          In other words, it appears the translation of "reincarnation" is very imaginative.






                          share|improve this answer














                          It seems the compound "attabhāvapaṭilābhe" means "acquisition of self becoming" or, as often translated, "acquisition of personality".



                          For example, if parents, for example, allow their children to make their own decisions in life, the children will develop a personality based on their own decisions.



                          But if parents, for example, are very domineering & even abusive, their children will develop personalities reflective of the violence of the parents.



                          Or when people are brainwashed by political rulers, such as Mao, Stalin, Hitler or Obama; or by the corporate or pornographic mass-media, the acquired personalty will be reflective of brainwashing.



                          In other words, it appears the translation of "reincarnation" is very imaginative.







                          share|improve this answer














                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer








                          edited 2 hours ago

























                          answered 2 hours ago









                          Dhammadhatu

                          24k11044




                          24k11044






















                              up vote
                              0
                              down vote













                              I agree with Andrei Volkov explanation, which follows to it's atthakathā. However, for the perfect understood by sutta, not only atthakathā, I write this answer.




                              1. There is a reincarnation where one’s own intention is effective, not that of others. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.


                              By atthakathā, above text refers to DN Brahmajālasuttaṃ:





                              1. ‘And what is the second?


                              ‘There are, brethren, certain gods called the “Debauched by Pleasure”
                              [155]. ‘For ages they pass their time in the pursuit of the laughter
                              and sport of sensual lusts. In consequence thereof their
                              self-possession is corrupted, and through the loss of their
                              self-control they fall from that state [156].




                              1. ‘Now it might well be, brethren, that some being, on his
                                falling from that state, should come hither. And having come hither he
                                should, as in the last case, become a recluse, and acquire the power
                                of recollecting his last birth, but only his last one.


                              2. ‘And he would say to himself: “Those gods who are not debauched by pleasure are stedfast, immutable, eternal, of a nature that knows no
                                change, and they will remain so forever and ever. [20] But we-who fell
                                from that state, having lost our self-control through being debauched
                                by pleasure-we have come hither as being impermanent, mutable, limited
                                in duration of life.”





                              By atthakathā, above text refers to MN kandarakasuttaṃ:




                              1. There is a reincarnation where the intention of others is effective, not one’s own. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe parasañcetanā kamati, no attasañcetanā.



                              Bhikkhus, which person torments others yoked to it? Bhikkhus, here a certain person is a killer of pigs, goats, birds, a hunter of wild animals, a fisherman, a robber, a highway robber, one who keeps a prison, or engaged in any other vicious activity. This person torments others yoked to tormenting others.





                              1. There is a reincarnation where both one’s own and others’ intentions are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā ca kamati parasañcetanā ca.


                              By atthakathā, above text refers to DN Brahmajālasuttaṃ:





                              1. ‘And what is the third?


                              ‘There are, brethren, certain gods called "the Debauched in Mind
                              [157].” They burn continually with envy [158] one against another, and
                              being thus irritated, their hearts become ill-disposed towards each
                              other, and being thus debauched, their bodies become feeble, and their
                              minds imbecile. And those gods fall from that state.




                              1. ‘Now it might well be, brethren, that some [q 034/] being, on his falling from that state, should come hither; and having become a
                                recluse should ‘as in the other cases, acquire the power of
                                recollecting his last birth, but only his last one.


                              2. ‘And lie would say to himself: “Those gods who are not debauched in mind do not continually burn with envy against each other, so their
                                hearts do not become evil disposed one towards another, nor their
                                bodies feeble and their minds imbecile. Therefore they fall not from
                                that state; they are stedfast, immutable, eternal, of a nature that
                                knows no change, and they will remain so forever and ever. [21] But we
                                were corrupted in mind, being constantly excited by envy against one
                                another. And being thus envious and corrupt our bodies became feeble,
                                and our minds imbecile, and we fell from that state, and have come
                                hither as Being impermanent, mutable, limited in duration of life.”



                              ‘This, brethren, is the third case.





                              1. There is a reincarnation where neither one’s own nor others’ intentions are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe nevattasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.


                              By atthakathā, above text refers to DN Dānamahapphalasutta:




                              "Having given this gift seeking his own profit — with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself, [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death' — on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Devas of the Four Great Kings. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.



                              "Having given this gift with the thought, 'Giving is good,' on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Devas of the Thirty-three. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.



                              ...




                              Why I have to link? Theravāda tradition never allow to explain tipitaka without reference, linking. It's weird and not professional. If buddhaghosa wrote something without the reference, he wouldn't be allowed to translate atthakathā back to pāli. So, the link, which I have given, show tipitaka memorizer's thought.






                              share|improve this answer























                              • Why I have to link? Theravāda tradition never allow to explain tipitaka without reference, linking. It's weird and not professional. If buddhaghosa wrote something without the reference, he wouldn't be allowed to translate atthakathā back to pāli. So, the link, which I have given, show tipitaka memorizer's thought.
                                – Bonn
                                5 mins ago















                              up vote
                              0
                              down vote













                              I agree with Andrei Volkov explanation, which follows to it's atthakathā. However, for the perfect understood by sutta, not only atthakathā, I write this answer.




                              1. There is a reincarnation where one’s own intention is effective, not that of others. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.


                              By atthakathā, above text refers to DN Brahmajālasuttaṃ:





                              1. ‘And what is the second?


                              ‘There are, brethren, certain gods called the “Debauched by Pleasure”
                              [155]. ‘For ages they pass their time in the pursuit of the laughter
                              and sport of sensual lusts. In consequence thereof their
                              self-possession is corrupted, and through the loss of their
                              self-control they fall from that state [156].




                              1. ‘Now it might well be, brethren, that some being, on his
                                falling from that state, should come hither. And having come hither he
                                should, as in the last case, become a recluse, and acquire the power
                                of recollecting his last birth, but only his last one.


                              2. ‘And he would say to himself: “Those gods who are not debauched by pleasure are stedfast, immutable, eternal, of a nature that knows no
                                change, and they will remain so forever and ever. [20] But we-who fell
                                from that state, having lost our self-control through being debauched
                                by pleasure-we have come hither as being impermanent, mutable, limited
                                in duration of life.”





                              By atthakathā, above text refers to MN kandarakasuttaṃ:




                              1. There is a reincarnation where the intention of others is effective, not one’s own. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe parasañcetanā kamati, no attasañcetanā.



                              Bhikkhus, which person torments others yoked to it? Bhikkhus, here a certain person is a killer of pigs, goats, birds, a hunter of wild animals, a fisherman, a robber, a highway robber, one who keeps a prison, or engaged in any other vicious activity. This person torments others yoked to tormenting others.





                              1. There is a reincarnation where both one’s own and others’ intentions are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā ca kamati parasañcetanā ca.


                              By atthakathā, above text refers to DN Brahmajālasuttaṃ:





                              1. ‘And what is the third?


                              ‘There are, brethren, certain gods called "the Debauched in Mind
                              [157].” They burn continually with envy [158] one against another, and
                              being thus irritated, their hearts become ill-disposed towards each
                              other, and being thus debauched, their bodies become feeble, and their
                              minds imbecile. And those gods fall from that state.




                              1. ‘Now it might well be, brethren, that some [q 034/] being, on his falling from that state, should come hither; and having become a
                                recluse should ‘as in the other cases, acquire the power of
                                recollecting his last birth, but only his last one.


                              2. ‘And lie would say to himself: “Those gods who are not debauched in mind do not continually burn with envy against each other, so their
                                hearts do not become evil disposed one towards another, nor their
                                bodies feeble and their minds imbecile. Therefore they fall not from
                                that state; they are stedfast, immutable, eternal, of a nature that
                                knows no change, and they will remain so forever and ever. [21] But we
                                were corrupted in mind, being constantly excited by envy against one
                                another. And being thus envious and corrupt our bodies became feeble,
                                and our minds imbecile, and we fell from that state, and have come
                                hither as Being impermanent, mutable, limited in duration of life.”



                              ‘This, brethren, is the third case.





                              1. There is a reincarnation where neither one’s own nor others’ intentions are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe nevattasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.


                              By atthakathā, above text refers to DN Dānamahapphalasutta:




                              "Having given this gift seeking his own profit — with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself, [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death' — on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Devas of the Four Great Kings. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.



                              "Having given this gift with the thought, 'Giving is good,' on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Devas of the Thirty-three. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.



                              ...




                              Why I have to link? Theravāda tradition never allow to explain tipitaka without reference, linking. It's weird and not professional. If buddhaghosa wrote something without the reference, he wouldn't be allowed to translate atthakathā back to pāli. So, the link, which I have given, show tipitaka memorizer's thought.






                              share|improve this answer























                              • Why I have to link? Theravāda tradition never allow to explain tipitaka without reference, linking. It's weird and not professional. If buddhaghosa wrote something without the reference, he wouldn't be allowed to translate atthakathā back to pāli. So, the link, which I have given, show tipitaka memorizer's thought.
                                – Bonn
                                5 mins ago













                              up vote
                              0
                              down vote










                              up vote
                              0
                              down vote









                              I agree with Andrei Volkov explanation, which follows to it's atthakathā. However, for the perfect understood by sutta, not only atthakathā, I write this answer.




                              1. There is a reincarnation where one’s own intention is effective, not that of others. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.


                              By atthakathā, above text refers to DN Brahmajālasuttaṃ:





                              1. ‘And what is the second?


                              ‘There are, brethren, certain gods called the “Debauched by Pleasure”
                              [155]. ‘For ages they pass their time in the pursuit of the laughter
                              and sport of sensual lusts. In consequence thereof their
                              self-possession is corrupted, and through the loss of their
                              self-control they fall from that state [156].




                              1. ‘Now it might well be, brethren, that some being, on his
                                falling from that state, should come hither. And having come hither he
                                should, as in the last case, become a recluse, and acquire the power
                                of recollecting his last birth, but only his last one.


                              2. ‘And he would say to himself: “Those gods who are not debauched by pleasure are stedfast, immutable, eternal, of a nature that knows no
                                change, and they will remain so forever and ever. [20] But we-who fell
                                from that state, having lost our self-control through being debauched
                                by pleasure-we have come hither as being impermanent, mutable, limited
                                in duration of life.”





                              By atthakathā, above text refers to MN kandarakasuttaṃ:




                              1. There is a reincarnation where the intention of others is effective, not one’s own. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe parasañcetanā kamati, no attasañcetanā.



                              Bhikkhus, which person torments others yoked to it? Bhikkhus, here a certain person is a killer of pigs, goats, birds, a hunter of wild animals, a fisherman, a robber, a highway robber, one who keeps a prison, or engaged in any other vicious activity. This person torments others yoked to tormenting others.





                              1. There is a reincarnation where both one’s own and others’ intentions are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā ca kamati parasañcetanā ca.


                              By atthakathā, above text refers to DN Brahmajālasuttaṃ:





                              1. ‘And what is the third?


                              ‘There are, brethren, certain gods called "the Debauched in Mind
                              [157].” They burn continually with envy [158] one against another, and
                              being thus irritated, their hearts become ill-disposed towards each
                              other, and being thus debauched, their bodies become feeble, and their
                              minds imbecile. And those gods fall from that state.




                              1. ‘Now it might well be, brethren, that some [q 034/] being, on his falling from that state, should come hither; and having become a
                                recluse should ‘as in the other cases, acquire the power of
                                recollecting his last birth, but only his last one.


                              2. ‘And lie would say to himself: “Those gods who are not debauched in mind do not continually burn with envy against each other, so their
                                hearts do not become evil disposed one towards another, nor their
                                bodies feeble and their minds imbecile. Therefore they fall not from
                                that state; they are stedfast, immutable, eternal, of a nature that
                                knows no change, and they will remain so forever and ever. [21] But we
                                were corrupted in mind, being constantly excited by envy against one
                                another. And being thus envious and corrupt our bodies became feeble,
                                and our minds imbecile, and we fell from that state, and have come
                                hither as Being impermanent, mutable, limited in duration of life.”



                              ‘This, brethren, is the third case.





                              1. There is a reincarnation where neither one’s own nor others’ intentions are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe nevattasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.


                              By atthakathā, above text refers to DN Dānamahapphalasutta:




                              "Having given this gift seeking his own profit — with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself, [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death' — on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Devas of the Four Great Kings. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.



                              "Having given this gift with the thought, 'Giving is good,' on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Devas of the Thirty-three. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.



                              ...




                              Why I have to link? Theravāda tradition never allow to explain tipitaka without reference, linking. It's weird and not professional. If buddhaghosa wrote something without the reference, he wouldn't be allowed to translate atthakathā back to pāli. So, the link, which I have given, show tipitaka memorizer's thought.






                              share|improve this answer














                              I agree with Andrei Volkov explanation, which follows to it's atthakathā. However, for the perfect understood by sutta, not only atthakathā, I write this answer.




                              1. There is a reincarnation where one’s own intention is effective, not that of others. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.


                              By atthakathā, above text refers to DN Brahmajālasuttaṃ:





                              1. ‘And what is the second?


                              ‘There are, brethren, certain gods called the “Debauched by Pleasure”
                              [155]. ‘For ages they pass their time in the pursuit of the laughter
                              and sport of sensual lusts. In consequence thereof their
                              self-possession is corrupted, and through the loss of their
                              self-control they fall from that state [156].




                              1. ‘Now it might well be, brethren, that some being, on his
                                falling from that state, should come hither. And having come hither he
                                should, as in the last case, become a recluse, and acquire the power
                                of recollecting his last birth, but only his last one.


                              2. ‘And he would say to himself: “Those gods who are not debauched by pleasure are stedfast, immutable, eternal, of a nature that knows no
                                change, and they will remain so forever and ever. [20] But we-who fell
                                from that state, having lost our self-control through being debauched
                                by pleasure-we have come hither as being impermanent, mutable, limited
                                in duration of life.”





                              By atthakathā, above text refers to MN kandarakasuttaṃ:




                              1. There is a reincarnation where the intention of others is effective, not one’s own. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe parasañcetanā kamati, no attasañcetanā.



                              Bhikkhus, which person torments others yoked to it? Bhikkhus, here a certain person is a killer of pigs, goats, birds, a hunter of wild animals, a fisherman, a robber, a highway robber, one who keeps a prison, or engaged in any other vicious activity. This person torments others yoked to tormenting others.





                              1. There is a reincarnation where both one’s own and others’ intentions are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe attasañcetanā ca kamati parasañcetanā ca.


                              By atthakathā, above text refers to DN Brahmajālasuttaṃ:





                              1. ‘And what is the third?


                              ‘There are, brethren, certain gods called "the Debauched in Mind
                              [157].” They burn continually with envy [158] one against another, and
                              being thus irritated, their hearts become ill-disposed towards each
                              other, and being thus debauched, their bodies become feeble, and their
                              minds imbecile. And those gods fall from that state.




                              1. ‘Now it might well be, brethren, that some [q 034/] being, on his falling from that state, should come hither; and having become a
                                recluse should ‘as in the other cases, acquire the power of
                                recollecting his last birth, but only his last one.


                              2. ‘And lie would say to himself: “Those gods who are not debauched in mind do not continually burn with envy against each other, so their
                                hearts do not become evil disposed one towards another, nor their
                                bodies feeble and their minds imbecile. Therefore they fall not from
                                that state; they are stedfast, immutable, eternal, of a nature that
                                knows no change, and they will remain so forever and ever. [21] But we
                                were corrupted in mind, being constantly excited by envy against one
                                another. And being thus envious and corrupt our bodies became feeble,
                                and our minds imbecile, and we fell from that state, and have come
                                hither as Being impermanent, mutable, limited in duration of life.”



                              ‘This, brethren, is the third case.





                              1. There is a reincarnation where neither one’s own nor others’ intentions are effective. Atthi, bhikkhave, attabhāvapaṭilābho, yasmiṃ attabhāvapaṭilābhe nevattasañcetanā kamati, no parasañcetanā.


                              By atthakathā, above text refers to DN Dānamahapphalasutta:




                              "Having given this gift seeking his own profit — with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself, [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death' — on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Devas of the Four Great Kings. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.



                              "Having given this gift with the thought, 'Giving is good,' on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Devas of the Thirty-three. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.



                              ...




                              Why I have to link? Theravāda tradition never allow to explain tipitaka without reference, linking. It's weird and not professional. If buddhaghosa wrote something without the reference, he wouldn't be allowed to translate atthakathā back to pāli. So, the link, which I have given, show tipitaka memorizer's thought.







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                              edited 5 mins ago

























                              answered 33 mins ago









                              Bonn

                              3,0371314




                              3,0371314












                              • Why I have to link? Theravāda tradition never allow to explain tipitaka without reference, linking. It's weird and not professional. If buddhaghosa wrote something without the reference, he wouldn't be allowed to translate atthakathā back to pāli. So, the link, which I have given, show tipitaka memorizer's thought.
                                – Bonn
                                5 mins ago


















                              • Why I have to link? Theravāda tradition never allow to explain tipitaka without reference, linking. It's weird and not professional. If buddhaghosa wrote something without the reference, he wouldn't be allowed to translate atthakathā back to pāli. So, the link, which I have given, show tipitaka memorizer's thought.
                                – Bonn
                                5 mins ago
















                              Why I have to link? Theravāda tradition never allow to explain tipitaka without reference, linking. It's weird and not professional. If buddhaghosa wrote something without the reference, he wouldn't be allowed to translate atthakathā back to pāli. So, the link, which I have given, show tipitaka memorizer's thought.
                              – Bonn
                              5 mins ago




                              Why I have to link? Theravāda tradition never allow to explain tipitaka without reference, linking. It's weird and not professional. If buddhaghosa wrote something without the reference, he wouldn't be allowed to translate atthakathā back to pāli. So, the link, which I have given, show tipitaka memorizer's thought.
                              – Bonn
                              5 mins ago


















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