Shouldn’t conservatives embrace universal basic income?
Andrew yang, a Democratic candidate for president current this date, has made universal basic income the foundation of his platform. This appears to be accepted as a “far left” idea. However, the way he has it proposed, is 1000 dollars a month, and that 1000 is not one top of current welfare but instead of. I.e. if you receive 1500 in benefit it’s a month, you now will get 1000 of the UBI plus the 500 in additional welfare.
Logically speaking, this just sounds like a tax refund, as he is not purposing raising taxes. You get a 1000 dollars of your taxes back each month. This sounds like a conservative idea. The only flaw I see is arguing trust those that do not pay 1000 a month shouldn’t get 1000.
taxes conservatism basic-income
add a comment |
Andrew yang, a Democratic candidate for president current this date, has made universal basic income the foundation of his platform. This appears to be accepted as a “far left” idea. However, the way he has it proposed, is 1000 dollars a month, and that 1000 is not one top of current welfare but instead of. I.e. if you receive 1500 in benefit it’s a month, you now will get 1000 of the UBI plus the 500 in additional welfare.
Logically speaking, this just sounds like a tax refund, as he is not purposing raising taxes. You get a 1000 dollars of your taxes back each month. This sounds like a conservative idea. The only flaw I see is arguing trust those that do not pay 1000 a month shouldn’t get 1000.
taxes conservatism basic-income
Comments deleted. Please don't use comments to answer the question. If you would like to answer, please post an answer which adheres to the rules and quality standards of our community.
– Philipp♦
yesterday
4
For context, universal basic income was endorsed by conversative economists Friederich Hayek and Milton Friedman. At a high level, the description in your question seems to apply perfectly to Friedman's idea.
– JimmyJames
yesterday
3
Shouldn't group which comprises roughly 50% of the population believe certain thing? This question isn't great, because it suggests a homogeneity that does not necessarily exist.
– Stephen
21 hours ago
1
Which group of conservative ? A strict-father conservative will practice "law of the jungle", not use UBI is bad to them, even a universal vaccination program is bad.
– mootmoot
12 hours ago
There seems to be a problem with the grammar of that sentence around the word "trust".
– hkBst
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Andrew yang, a Democratic candidate for president current this date, has made universal basic income the foundation of his platform. This appears to be accepted as a “far left” idea. However, the way he has it proposed, is 1000 dollars a month, and that 1000 is not one top of current welfare but instead of. I.e. if you receive 1500 in benefit it’s a month, you now will get 1000 of the UBI plus the 500 in additional welfare.
Logically speaking, this just sounds like a tax refund, as he is not purposing raising taxes. You get a 1000 dollars of your taxes back each month. This sounds like a conservative idea. The only flaw I see is arguing trust those that do not pay 1000 a month shouldn’t get 1000.
taxes conservatism basic-income
Andrew yang, a Democratic candidate for president current this date, has made universal basic income the foundation of his platform. This appears to be accepted as a “far left” idea. However, the way he has it proposed, is 1000 dollars a month, and that 1000 is not one top of current welfare but instead of. I.e. if you receive 1500 in benefit it’s a month, you now will get 1000 of the UBI plus the 500 in additional welfare.
Logically speaking, this just sounds like a tax refund, as he is not purposing raising taxes. You get a 1000 dollars of your taxes back each month. This sounds like a conservative idea. The only flaw I see is arguing trust those that do not pay 1000 a month shouldn’t get 1000.
taxes conservatism basic-income
taxes conservatism basic-income
edited yesterday
Alexei
17.4k2297176
17.4k2297176
asked yesterday
spmoosespmoose
1,6213922
1,6213922
Comments deleted. Please don't use comments to answer the question. If you would like to answer, please post an answer which adheres to the rules and quality standards of our community.
– Philipp♦
yesterday
4
For context, universal basic income was endorsed by conversative economists Friederich Hayek and Milton Friedman. At a high level, the description in your question seems to apply perfectly to Friedman's idea.
– JimmyJames
yesterday
3
Shouldn't group which comprises roughly 50% of the population believe certain thing? This question isn't great, because it suggests a homogeneity that does not necessarily exist.
– Stephen
21 hours ago
1
Which group of conservative ? A strict-father conservative will practice "law of the jungle", not use UBI is bad to them, even a universal vaccination program is bad.
– mootmoot
12 hours ago
There seems to be a problem with the grammar of that sentence around the word "trust".
– hkBst
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Comments deleted. Please don't use comments to answer the question. If you would like to answer, please post an answer which adheres to the rules and quality standards of our community.
– Philipp♦
yesterday
4
For context, universal basic income was endorsed by conversative economists Friederich Hayek and Milton Friedman. At a high level, the description in your question seems to apply perfectly to Friedman's idea.
– JimmyJames
yesterday
3
Shouldn't group which comprises roughly 50% of the population believe certain thing? This question isn't great, because it suggests a homogeneity that does not necessarily exist.
– Stephen
21 hours ago
1
Which group of conservative ? A strict-father conservative will practice "law of the jungle", not use UBI is bad to them, even a universal vaccination program is bad.
– mootmoot
12 hours ago
There seems to be a problem with the grammar of that sentence around the word "trust".
– hkBst
5 hours ago
Comments deleted. Please don't use comments to answer the question. If you would like to answer, please post an answer which adheres to the rules and quality standards of our community.
– Philipp♦
yesterday
Comments deleted. Please don't use comments to answer the question. If you would like to answer, please post an answer which adheres to the rules and quality standards of our community.
– Philipp♦
yesterday
4
4
For context, universal basic income was endorsed by conversative economists Friederich Hayek and Milton Friedman. At a high level, the description in your question seems to apply perfectly to Friedman's idea.
– JimmyJames
yesterday
For context, universal basic income was endorsed by conversative economists Friederich Hayek and Milton Friedman. At a high level, the description in your question seems to apply perfectly to Friedman's idea.
– JimmyJames
yesterday
3
3
Shouldn't group which comprises roughly 50% of the population believe certain thing? This question isn't great, because it suggests a homogeneity that does not necessarily exist.
– Stephen
21 hours ago
Shouldn't group which comprises roughly 50% of the population believe certain thing? This question isn't great, because it suggests a homogeneity that does not necessarily exist.
– Stephen
21 hours ago
1
1
Which group of conservative ? A strict-father conservative will practice "law of the jungle", not use UBI is bad to them, even a universal vaccination program is bad.
– mootmoot
12 hours ago
Which group of conservative ? A strict-father conservative will practice "law of the jungle", not use UBI is bad to them, even a universal vaccination program is bad.
– mootmoot
12 hours ago
There seems to be a problem with the grammar of that sentence around the word "trust".
– hkBst
5 hours ago
There seems to be a problem with the grammar of that sentence around the word "trust".
– hkBst
5 hours ago
add a comment |
8 Answers
8
active
oldest
votes
Forget about names, except for PR purposes.
A clear-headed analyst looks that the net flow of money, now and in future entitlements. Call it "UBI" or "tax credit", call it "tax" or "mandatory insurance premium" or "tithe" -- people either give money to the government and government-affilated institutions like pension schemes and insurance, or they get money.
Historically, some conservatives have supported welfare systems. In 19th century Germany, the rather Conservative Bismarck introduced worker's health insurance, in part to lure workers away from the Socialists.
Conservatives are a mixed group and any one of them has many goals, some of them contradictory. A few generalizations:
- Conservatives tend to believe that those who earn money should be able to keep much of it. That goes against redistribution schemes (no matter how they are called).
- Conservatives tend to believe that welfare should go to those who cannot help themselves. Not to those who can (or could) earn their own living. To discourage lazy layabouts, there should be a clearly visible gap between the income of an unskilled worker and the income of a welfare recipient.
- Some conservatives are affilated with businesspeople and employers. Employers like to see workers who need a job to make ends meet, because that improves their negotiating position for wages and employment conditions.
The second bullet point is the main thing.
6
To be fair, the third bullet point is something most people would agree with I bet, not just employers. "Those damn youngsters living with their mothers at 40" and all that :)
– Luaan
yesterday
22
@Luaan Most people over sixty, you mean. I doubt the ones living with their moms at their 30s because they can't afford living on their own feel too happy with the situation.
– Rekesoft
yesterday
4
@spmoose I think most conservatives would be fine with that: that's just a tax cut. I think the situation o.m. is talking about is when someone doesn't pay over $1000/month. What then? You either give money back (which the Right would say is unfair redistribution) or you just cut their taxes to $0, in which case they get less benefit than the rich (which the Left would say is an unfairly regressive policy)
– divibisan
yesterday
5
But couldn't the second point be countered like this: in the current situation, welfare is comparable to the income of an unskilled worker (and this is why welfare recipients often have little incentive to do such jobs), whereas with UBI those workers would earn on top of UBI, creating the gap the conservatives desire?
– Zeus
yesterday
4
This answer conflates 19th century German conservatives and present day American conservatives as though they are the same sorts of people who are interested in conserving the same things for the same set of reasons. The nature of the two different things that are both called "conservatism" is different because they seek to conserve different things in different contexts.
– Joe
yesterday
|
show 12 more comments
Some conservatives do support basic income.
One of the earliest proponents of basic income in the United States was Charles Murray, who supported the idea before its recent surge in popularity. Although he identifies primarily as a libertarian, it is not inaccurate to say that he is right of center and that he has been associated with conservative publications and organizations.
There are even proposals to do basic income as a feature of the tax system.
One of the mechanisms that has been proposed for distributing basic income payments by right of center advocates for the idea is as a negative income tax. Currently, if you make less than the standard deduction amount, you owe $0 in taxes to the federal government. Under a negative income tax, if made less than the standard deduction, you would owe a negative amount of money to the government, e.g. the government would owe you momey instead. Typically, proposals to doing UBI this way involve increasing the standard deduction amount.
A similar mechanism to this is the Earned Income Tax Credit for taxpayers who make small amounts of money but still work. This is a refundable tax credit. This particular credit is supported by many conservative politicians in office today, and it is possible to implement UBI through another refundable tax credit.
While some might call this UBI, I think it's an entirely different animal from the kind of UBI that the question is about.
– TKK
yesterday
4
@TKK Oh? "Logically speaking, this sounds like a tax refund" is in the question, so it seems exactly like what the question is asking about.
– Joe
yesterday
2
@TKK Murray's proposal still pays every American a minimum amount, so it's still universal even though it pays poor people a few thousand dollars more
– Joe
yesterday
1
Murray's proposal would pay $0 to people earning exactly the standard deduction. Yang's proposal would pay those people (and everyone else) $1000/month. Yang's proposal is "universal"; Murray's is purposefully not.
– TKK
yesterday
2
@TKK Murray's proposal says nothing about deductions. Also, negative income tax is identical to a UBI system that has no standard deduction.
– eyeballfrog
23 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
Conservatives (even I dare say those famous conservatives mentioned in other answers) wouldn't support UBI in addition to current welfare policies, but there is a very good conservative case to be made for replacing current welfare (including related programs like social security) with UBI. It would replace a very complex and disjoint set of rules that is difficult and expensive to administer with a very simple set of rules with much less overhead.
A similar situation happened with cap and trade. Conservatives thought a market-based solution would be better, but then liberals wanted to add cap and trade on top of the existing regulatory burden.
1
Can you add some context/evidence for the second paragraph? I'm not sure what you're talking about here.
– gerrit
13 hours ago
add a comment |
Some conservatives (and liberals) have argued for UBI. The devil is in the details. The conservative plans are, as far as I can tell, a way to entirely substitute the existing US welfare system with UBI... a substitution that isn't quite palatable to liberals.
On the right, UBI has been endorsed by the likes of economist Milton Friedman, former president Richard Nixon, and libertarian pundit Charles Murray. On the left, Martin Luther King, Jr., former Democratic politician George McGovern, and the Green Party have all championed the idea of the government giving each citizen a certain amount of money on a regular basis—no strings attached.
Conservatives tend to see UBI as a strategy to replace most of the existing welfare state wholesale. Nixon, for instance, proposed a basic income for needy families as part of a plan to overhaul the New Deal-era welfare state.
The problem, of course, is that a UBI would be incredibly expensive. Robert Greenstein, founder and president of the Washington, D.C., thinktank Center for Budget and Policy Priorities, estimates that a $10,000 annual basic income would cost more than $3 trillion per year, consuming nearly all of the tax revenue that the government currently raises. A UBI of this scale would either crowd out most other social programs—the conservative wish—or would require ratcheting up the federal government’s tax collection.
Murray endorsed a basic income in a 2006 book, which proposed to scrap all existing safety-net programs in favor of a $10,000 yearly grant to each American adult. Bernstein objected, anticipating that the poor would be made worse off, and defending the safety net’s gains in fighting poverty.
Murray’s basic income looks a lot like a $10,000 Trojan horse. He explicitly rejects any additional government support for families with children, and would refuse any further public aid to those who fall in need after exhausting their income grant. Those with such misfortune, Murray says, must depend on charity.
Liberals like Bernstein are right to resist this sort of basic income. Murray’s plan would voucherize the entire welfare state—a buyout in exchange for unwinding the federal government’s social-insurance obligations.
[...]
In fact, getting government out of the business of providing beneficial services and instead cutting a flat check would mimic the corporate cost-control tactic of moving workers from defined benefit packages to defined contributions. This would complete the decades-long conservative push to reform our social insurance institutions by shifting risk on to individuals in order to promote personal responsibility, as Murray aspires to do with a UBI.
From how you describe Andrew Yang's proposal, it sounds a lot like those conservative (substitution) proposals. On the other hand, you may have misrepresented it somewhat, since some of the comments argue that he is planning to raise new taxes to pay for it... which wouldn't make a lot of sense for a pure substitution. I don't feel inclined to dig into his platform, but you now know what traits to pay attention to in terms of conservative vs liberal UBI proposals.
add a comment |
Conservatives want less government intervention when it comes to economic policies. Administering this program would create more government and would require funding of some sort.
I have pulled information from https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-ubi/ as I am not completely informed.
You say that current welfare beneficiaries that receive $1500 a month would continue receive $1500 if universal basic income is rolled out. Could you provide a source for that because I doubt a democrat would advocate a policy that does not benefit somebody currently on welfare. All I see is they cannot claim the full $1000, so maybe they will receive $2300 a month instead of $2500? Overall if the amount of money they get has increased, it will require more government administrative funding to process that money.
They propose to fund this program by putting a value added tax. It is really not much different from just straight up increasing taxes on businesses; end result is the same. Possibly businesses will just pay their workers less and justify it by saying their income is supplemented by universal basic income. It would also require government bureaucracy to collect this tax.
Overall, it is very clear that universal basic income is only a left wing platform. It is wealth redistribution that increases government. He could have simply said increase taxes on businesses and give it to poorer people and the end result is exactly the same.
1
Left and Right are not universal agreed conventions and even defining them cannot be done without some controversy. A common generalization is: Right defends income concentration in the belief the "better" among us will lead the way to prosperity. Left defends income distribution in the belief spreading prosperity to a bigger number of people is the right thing to do (prosperity generates prosperity).
– jean
yesterday
Administering this program would create more government, this is a misunderstanding. Replacing conditional money transfers by unconditional money transfers would mean less government, not more. I've even seen this used as an argument against UBI by labour unions representing government civil servants. Your final paragraph is also factually incorrect.
– gerrit
13 hours ago
@gerrit Unless you plan to get rid of welfare entirely, which he is not proposing, it would most definitely create more government as they will keep all the administrative staff for all current welfare programs and will create new agencies to send money for universal basic income. Not to mention you would need to create additional agencies to collect the new tax. There is also nothing actually incorrect about my last paragraph. The net cash flow is literally the same as if you tax wealthier people and gave it to the poor.
– Matthew Liu
5 hours ago
add a comment |
I was just listening to an interview with someone who wrote a book about this. Universal basic income nearly passed under Nixon. It was passed by the conservative senate and the liberal house didn't pass it because they were holding out for a higher wage.
In parallel we were doing research where we gave groups of people a basic income to see what happened. One of the outcomes was that they were no less productive (Somewhat more I think), but one of the "Outcomes" of the test was (it turns out incorrectly) interpreted as women with the financial freedom had more of a tendency to divorce their husbands and strike out on their own.
This result caused major concern among conservatives. The story persisted for years even though they quickly figured out that this had just been a misinterpretation of the results.
I'll try to find the name of that book and add it to this message.
update:
Googled it and Wikipedia had this:
Guaranteed minimum income (GMI), also called minimum income, is a system[1] of social welfare provision that guarantees that all citizens or families have an income sufficient to live on, provided they meet certain conditions. Eligibility is typically determined by citizenship, a means test, and either availability for the labour market or a willingness to perform community services. The primary goal of a guaranteed minimum income is to reduce poverty. If citizenship is the only requirement, the system turns into a universal basic income.
Nixon's proposal was a GMI (I believe he called it GAI, Guaranteed Annual Income) which probably excluded some people that would have been involved in a UBI. Also the article mentioned that I got it backwards, the house passed it but it hung in the senate.
1
Can you add some details about the scheme nearly passed under Nixon? Does it meet the characteristics of how current proponents of UBI actually define it?
– gerrit
13 hours ago
1
Guaranteed minimum income is means-tested, meaning it has more complex eligibility criteria and associated bureaucracy. Basic income is not means tested, and usually criteria are limited to citizenship or residency. They have significantly different economic effects and political considerations.
– sondra.kinsey
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Conservatives have historically been in favor of lower taxes for all, meaning the rich people they represent. Giving poor people a tax break exclusively doesn't benefit them in anyway.
Historically the U.S have had high income tax on rich people. But those were the days when they were in a race to beat the Soviet Union. Can't have the American people appear to be poor when you want to show that your system is better than theirs.
Today the Soviet Union is long gone and the threat of socialism only exists in the form of people like Bernie Sanders and AOC. So no wonder the freshman AOC gets constantly attacked by them. As they view her as their main threat right now.
When in reality, the best way to keep socialism away is to share some of that wealth with the working population. Rather than having 1% of the population owning 40% of the country's wealth.
Time to make America great again. By taxing the rich again.
add a comment |
Because doing so would be bad identity politics.
I mean, it's not like there haven't been prominent conservatives espousing guaranteed income: Milton "any tax cut is a good tax cut" Friedman was in favor.
But in the modern era, regardless of affiliation, it's all about the image you portray to your constituency. Leftists are loudly and conspicuously in favor of UBI: Conservatives don't want to be accused of selling out, and to distance themselves from the hated Other they oppose policies Leftists support regardless of the merits or lack thereof. N.B. this isn't just a problem on the Right.
2
The term "identity politics" usually refers to immutable characteristics such as race or nationality, not political beliefs. Aside from terminology, the answer is also factually incorrect; conservatives have been part of the initial proponents of this idea in the United States.
– Joe
yesterday
@Joe you can critique me about the meaning of "identity politics", I'm not going to argue semantics. But you're claiming I'm factually incorrect while agreeing with me? I specifically mentioned Milton Friedman supporting the idea. It doesn't get more conservative than that. I'm explaining why no conservative wants to touch it with a 10 foot pole in the Trump era.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
Yes, because Milton Friedman would probably object to being described as conservative, and even if he was, there are a set of conservatives who favor redistributing income through the tax system. Marco Rubio is definitely a proponent of expanded EITCs; idk what he thinks about the UBI but he and several other consevative senators have no aversion to spending money on poor people (and for that matter, neither does Trump; he was the one GOP candidate who made no promise for reforming benefits for fiscal reasons).
– Joe
yesterday
add a comment |
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Forget about names, except for PR purposes.
A clear-headed analyst looks that the net flow of money, now and in future entitlements. Call it "UBI" or "tax credit", call it "tax" or "mandatory insurance premium" or "tithe" -- people either give money to the government and government-affilated institutions like pension schemes and insurance, or they get money.
Historically, some conservatives have supported welfare systems. In 19th century Germany, the rather Conservative Bismarck introduced worker's health insurance, in part to lure workers away from the Socialists.
Conservatives are a mixed group and any one of them has many goals, some of them contradictory. A few generalizations:
- Conservatives tend to believe that those who earn money should be able to keep much of it. That goes against redistribution schemes (no matter how they are called).
- Conservatives tend to believe that welfare should go to those who cannot help themselves. Not to those who can (or could) earn their own living. To discourage lazy layabouts, there should be a clearly visible gap between the income of an unskilled worker and the income of a welfare recipient.
- Some conservatives are affilated with businesspeople and employers. Employers like to see workers who need a job to make ends meet, because that improves their negotiating position for wages and employment conditions.
The second bullet point is the main thing.
6
To be fair, the third bullet point is something most people would agree with I bet, not just employers. "Those damn youngsters living with their mothers at 40" and all that :)
– Luaan
yesterday
22
@Luaan Most people over sixty, you mean. I doubt the ones living with their moms at their 30s because they can't afford living on their own feel too happy with the situation.
– Rekesoft
yesterday
4
@spmoose I think most conservatives would be fine with that: that's just a tax cut. I think the situation o.m. is talking about is when someone doesn't pay over $1000/month. What then? You either give money back (which the Right would say is unfair redistribution) or you just cut their taxes to $0, in which case they get less benefit than the rich (which the Left would say is an unfairly regressive policy)
– divibisan
yesterday
5
But couldn't the second point be countered like this: in the current situation, welfare is comparable to the income of an unskilled worker (and this is why welfare recipients often have little incentive to do such jobs), whereas with UBI those workers would earn on top of UBI, creating the gap the conservatives desire?
– Zeus
yesterday
4
This answer conflates 19th century German conservatives and present day American conservatives as though they are the same sorts of people who are interested in conserving the same things for the same set of reasons. The nature of the two different things that are both called "conservatism" is different because they seek to conserve different things in different contexts.
– Joe
yesterday
|
show 12 more comments
Forget about names, except for PR purposes.
A clear-headed analyst looks that the net flow of money, now and in future entitlements. Call it "UBI" or "tax credit", call it "tax" or "mandatory insurance premium" or "tithe" -- people either give money to the government and government-affilated institutions like pension schemes and insurance, or they get money.
Historically, some conservatives have supported welfare systems. In 19th century Germany, the rather Conservative Bismarck introduced worker's health insurance, in part to lure workers away from the Socialists.
Conservatives are a mixed group and any one of them has many goals, some of them contradictory. A few generalizations:
- Conservatives tend to believe that those who earn money should be able to keep much of it. That goes against redistribution schemes (no matter how they are called).
- Conservatives tend to believe that welfare should go to those who cannot help themselves. Not to those who can (or could) earn their own living. To discourage lazy layabouts, there should be a clearly visible gap between the income of an unskilled worker and the income of a welfare recipient.
- Some conservatives are affilated with businesspeople and employers. Employers like to see workers who need a job to make ends meet, because that improves their negotiating position for wages and employment conditions.
The second bullet point is the main thing.
6
To be fair, the third bullet point is something most people would agree with I bet, not just employers. "Those damn youngsters living with their mothers at 40" and all that :)
– Luaan
yesterday
22
@Luaan Most people over sixty, you mean. I doubt the ones living with their moms at their 30s because they can't afford living on their own feel too happy with the situation.
– Rekesoft
yesterday
4
@spmoose I think most conservatives would be fine with that: that's just a tax cut. I think the situation o.m. is talking about is when someone doesn't pay over $1000/month. What then? You either give money back (which the Right would say is unfair redistribution) or you just cut their taxes to $0, in which case they get less benefit than the rich (which the Left would say is an unfairly regressive policy)
– divibisan
yesterday
5
But couldn't the second point be countered like this: in the current situation, welfare is comparable to the income of an unskilled worker (and this is why welfare recipients often have little incentive to do such jobs), whereas with UBI those workers would earn on top of UBI, creating the gap the conservatives desire?
– Zeus
yesterday
4
This answer conflates 19th century German conservatives and present day American conservatives as though they are the same sorts of people who are interested in conserving the same things for the same set of reasons. The nature of the two different things that are both called "conservatism" is different because they seek to conserve different things in different contexts.
– Joe
yesterday
|
show 12 more comments
Forget about names, except for PR purposes.
A clear-headed analyst looks that the net flow of money, now and in future entitlements. Call it "UBI" or "tax credit", call it "tax" or "mandatory insurance premium" or "tithe" -- people either give money to the government and government-affilated institutions like pension schemes and insurance, or they get money.
Historically, some conservatives have supported welfare systems. In 19th century Germany, the rather Conservative Bismarck introduced worker's health insurance, in part to lure workers away from the Socialists.
Conservatives are a mixed group and any one of them has many goals, some of them contradictory. A few generalizations:
- Conservatives tend to believe that those who earn money should be able to keep much of it. That goes against redistribution schemes (no matter how they are called).
- Conservatives tend to believe that welfare should go to those who cannot help themselves. Not to those who can (or could) earn their own living. To discourage lazy layabouts, there should be a clearly visible gap between the income of an unskilled worker and the income of a welfare recipient.
- Some conservatives are affilated with businesspeople and employers. Employers like to see workers who need a job to make ends meet, because that improves their negotiating position for wages and employment conditions.
The second bullet point is the main thing.
Forget about names, except for PR purposes.
A clear-headed analyst looks that the net flow of money, now and in future entitlements. Call it "UBI" or "tax credit", call it "tax" or "mandatory insurance premium" or "tithe" -- people either give money to the government and government-affilated institutions like pension schemes and insurance, or they get money.
Historically, some conservatives have supported welfare systems. In 19th century Germany, the rather Conservative Bismarck introduced worker's health insurance, in part to lure workers away from the Socialists.
Conservatives are a mixed group and any one of them has many goals, some of them contradictory. A few generalizations:
- Conservatives tend to believe that those who earn money should be able to keep much of it. That goes against redistribution schemes (no matter how they are called).
- Conservatives tend to believe that welfare should go to those who cannot help themselves. Not to those who can (or could) earn their own living. To discourage lazy layabouts, there should be a clearly visible gap between the income of an unskilled worker and the income of a welfare recipient.
- Some conservatives are affilated with businesspeople and employers. Employers like to see workers who need a job to make ends meet, because that improves their negotiating position for wages and employment conditions.
The second bullet point is the main thing.
answered yesterday
o.m.o.m.
9,73511838
9,73511838
6
To be fair, the third bullet point is something most people would agree with I bet, not just employers. "Those damn youngsters living with their mothers at 40" and all that :)
– Luaan
yesterday
22
@Luaan Most people over sixty, you mean. I doubt the ones living with their moms at their 30s because they can't afford living on their own feel too happy with the situation.
– Rekesoft
yesterday
4
@spmoose I think most conservatives would be fine with that: that's just a tax cut. I think the situation o.m. is talking about is when someone doesn't pay over $1000/month. What then? You either give money back (which the Right would say is unfair redistribution) or you just cut their taxes to $0, in which case they get less benefit than the rich (which the Left would say is an unfairly regressive policy)
– divibisan
yesterday
5
But couldn't the second point be countered like this: in the current situation, welfare is comparable to the income of an unskilled worker (and this is why welfare recipients often have little incentive to do such jobs), whereas with UBI those workers would earn on top of UBI, creating the gap the conservatives desire?
– Zeus
yesterday
4
This answer conflates 19th century German conservatives and present day American conservatives as though they are the same sorts of people who are interested in conserving the same things for the same set of reasons. The nature of the two different things that are both called "conservatism" is different because they seek to conserve different things in different contexts.
– Joe
yesterday
|
show 12 more comments
6
To be fair, the third bullet point is something most people would agree with I bet, not just employers. "Those damn youngsters living with their mothers at 40" and all that :)
– Luaan
yesterday
22
@Luaan Most people over sixty, you mean. I doubt the ones living with their moms at their 30s because they can't afford living on their own feel too happy with the situation.
– Rekesoft
yesterday
4
@spmoose I think most conservatives would be fine with that: that's just a tax cut. I think the situation o.m. is talking about is when someone doesn't pay over $1000/month. What then? You either give money back (which the Right would say is unfair redistribution) or you just cut their taxes to $0, in which case they get less benefit than the rich (which the Left would say is an unfairly regressive policy)
– divibisan
yesterday
5
But couldn't the second point be countered like this: in the current situation, welfare is comparable to the income of an unskilled worker (and this is why welfare recipients often have little incentive to do such jobs), whereas with UBI those workers would earn on top of UBI, creating the gap the conservatives desire?
– Zeus
yesterday
4
This answer conflates 19th century German conservatives and present day American conservatives as though they are the same sorts of people who are interested in conserving the same things for the same set of reasons. The nature of the two different things that are both called "conservatism" is different because they seek to conserve different things in different contexts.
– Joe
yesterday
6
6
To be fair, the third bullet point is something most people would agree with I bet, not just employers. "Those damn youngsters living with their mothers at 40" and all that :)
– Luaan
yesterday
To be fair, the third bullet point is something most people would agree with I bet, not just employers. "Those damn youngsters living with their mothers at 40" and all that :)
– Luaan
yesterday
22
22
@Luaan Most people over sixty, you mean. I doubt the ones living with their moms at their 30s because they can't afford living on their own feel too happy with the situation.
– Rekesoft
yesterday
@Luaan Most people over sixty, you mean. I doubt the ones living with their moms at their 30s because they can't afford living on their own feel too happy with the situation.
– Rekesoft
yesterday
4
4
@spmoose I think most conservatives would be fine with that: that's just a tax cut. I think the situation o.m. is talking about is when someone doesn't pay over $1000/month. What then? You either give money back (which the Right would say is unfair redistribution) or you just cut their taxes to $0, in which case they get less benefit than the rich (which the Left would say is an unfairly regressive policy)
– divibisan
yesterday
@spmoose I think most conservatives would be fine with that: that's just a tax cut. I think the situation o.m. is talking about is when someone doesn't pay over $1000/month. What then? You either give money back (which the Right would say is unfair redistribution) or you just cut their taxes to $0, in which case they get less benefit than the rich (which the Left would say is an unfairly regressive policy)
– divibisan
yesterday
5
5
But couldn't the second point be countered like this: in the current situation, welfare is comparable to the income of an unskilled worker (and this is why welfare recipients often have little incentive to do such jobs), whereas with UBI those workers would earn on top of UBI, creating the gap the conservatives desire?
– Zeus
yesterday
But couldn't the second point be countered like this: in the current situation, welfare is comparable to the income of an unskilled worker (and this is why welfare recipients often have little incentive to do such jobs), whereas with UBI those workers would earn on top of UBI, creating the gap the conservatives desire?
– Zeus
yesterday
4
4
This answer conflates 19th century German conservatives and present day American conservatives as though they are the same sorts of people who are interested in conserving the same things for the same set of reasons. The nature of the two different things that are both called "conservatism" is different because they seek to conserve different things in different contexts.
– Joe
yesterday
This answer conflates 19th century German conservatives and present day American conservatives as though they are the same sorts of people who are interested in conserving the same things for the same set of reasons. The nature of the two different things that are both called "conservatism" is different because they seek to conserve different things in different contexts.
– Joe
yesterday
|
show 12 more comments
Some conservatives do support basic income.
One of the earliest proponents of basic income in the United States was Charles Murray, who supported the idea before its recent surge in popularity. Although he identifies primarily as a libertarian, it is not inaccurate to say that he is right of center and that he has been associated with conservative publications and organizations.
There are even proposals to do basic income as a feature of the tax system.
One of the mechanisms that has been proposed for distributing basic income payments by right of center advocates for the idea is as a negative income tax. Currently, if you make less than the standard deduction amount, you owe $0 in taxes to the federal government. Under a negative income tax, if made less than the standard deduction, you would owe a negative amount of money to the government, e.g. the government would owe you momey instead. Typically, proposals to doing UBI this way involve increasing the standard deduction amount.
A similar mechanism to this is the Earned Income Tax Credit for taxpayers who make small amounts of money but still work. This is a refundable tax credit. This particular credit is supported by many conservative politicians in office today, and it is possible to implement UBI through another refundable tax credit.
While some might call this UBI, I think it's an entirely different animal from the kind of UBI that the question is about.
– TKK
yesterday
4
@TKK Oh? "Logically speaking, this sounds like a tax refund" is in the question, so it seems exactly like what the question is asking about.
– Joe
yesterday
2
@TKK Murray's proposal still pays every American a minimum amount, so it's still universal even though it pays poor people a few thousand dollars more
– Joe
yesterday
1
Murray's proposal would pay $0 to people earning exactly the standard deduction. Yang's proposal would pay those people (and everyone else) $1000/month. Yang's proposal is "universal"; Murray's is purposefully not.
– TKK
yesterday
2
@TKK Murray's proposal says nothing about deductions. Also, negative income tax is identical to a UBI system that has no standard deduction.
– eyeballfrog
23 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
Some conservatives do support basic income.
One of the earliest proponents of basic income in the United States was Charles Murray, who supported the idea before its recent surge in popularity. Although he identifies primarily as a libertarian, it is not inaccurate to say that he is right of center and that he has been associated with conservative publications and organizations.
There are even proposals to do basic income as a feature of the tax system.
One of the mechanisms that has been proposed for distributing basic income payments by right of center advocates for the idea is as a negative income tax. Currently, if you make less than the standard deduction amount, you owe $0 in taxes to the federal government. Under a negative income tax, if made less than the standard deduction, you would owe a negative amount of money to the government, e.g. the government would owe you momey instead. Typically, proposals to doing UBI this way involve increasing the standard deduction amount.
A similar mechanism to this is the Earned Income Tax Credit for taxpayers who make small amounts of money but still work. This is a refundable tax credit. This particular credit is supported by many conservative politicians in office today, and it is possible to implement UBI through another refundable tax credit.
While some might call this UBI, I think it's an entirely different animal from the kind of UBI that the question is about.
– TKK
yesterday
4
@TKK Oh? "Logically speaking, this sounds like a tax refund" is in the question, so it seems exactly like what the question is asking about.
– Joe
yesterday
2
@TKK Murray's proposal still pays every American a minimum amount, so it's still universal even though it pays poor people a few thousand dollars more
– Joe
yesterday
1
Murray's proposal would pay $0 to people earning exactly the standard deduction. Yang's proposal would pay those people (and everyone else) $1000/month. Yang's proposal is "universal"; Murray's is purposefully not.
– TKK
yesterday
2
@TKK Murray's proposal says nothing about deductions. Also, negative income tax is identical to a UBI system that has no standard deduction.
– eyeballfrog
23 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
Some conservatives do support basic income.
One of the earliest proponents of basic income in the United States was Charles Murray, who supported the idea before its recent surge in popularity. Although he identifies primarily as a libertarian, it is not inaccurate to say that he is right of center and that he has been associated with conservative publications and organizations.
There are even proposals to do basic income as a feature of the tax system.
One of the mechanisms that has been proposed for distributing basic income payments by right of center advocates for the idea is as a negative income tax. Currently, if you make less than the standard deduction amount, you owe $0 in taxes to the federal government. Under a negative income tax, if made less than the standard deduction, you would owe a negative amount of money to the government, e.g. the government would owe you momey instead. Typically, proposals to doing UBI this way involve increasing the standard deduction amount.
A similar mechanism to this is the Earned Income Tax Credit for taxpayers who make small amounts of money but still work. This is a refundable tax credit. This particular credit is supported by many conservative politicians in office today, and it is possible to implement UBI through another refundable tax credit.
Some conservatives do support basic income.
One of the earliest proponents of basic income in the United States was Charles Murray, who supported the idea before its recent surge in popularity. Although he identifies primarily as a libertarian, it is not inaccurate to say that he is right of center and that he has been associated with conservative publications and organizations.
There are even proposals to do basic income as a feature of the tax system.
One of the mechanisms that has been proposed for distributing basic income payments by right of center advocates for the idea is as a negative income tax. Currently, if you make less than the standard deduction amount, you owe $0 in taxes to the federal government. Under a negative income tax, if made less than the standard deduction, you would owe a negative amount of money to the government, e.g. the government would owe you momey instead. Typically, proposals to doing UBI this way involve increasing the standard deduction amount.
A similar mechanism to this is the Earned Income Tax Credit for taxpayers who make small amounts of money but still work. This is a refundable tax credit. This particular credit is supported by many conservative politicians in office today, and it is possible to implement UBI through another refundable tax credit.
answered yesterday
JoeJoe
2,474519
2,474519
While some might call this UBI, I think it's an entirely different animal from the kind of UBI that the question is about.
– TKK
yesterday
4
@TKK Oh? "Logically speaking, this sounds like a tax refund" is in the question, so it seems exactly like what the question is asking about.
– Joe
yesterday
2
@TKK Murray's proposal still pays every American a minimum amount, so it's still universal even though it pays poor people a few thousand dollars more
– Joe
yesterday
1
Murray's proposal would pay $0 to people earning exactly the standard deduction. Yang's proposal would pay those people (and everyone else) $1000/month. Yang's proposal is "universal"; Murray's is purposefully not.
– TKK
yesterday
2
@TKK Murray's proposal says nothing about deductions. Also, negative income tax is identical to a UBI system that has no standard deduction.
– eyeballfrog
23 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
While some might call this UBI, I think it's an entirely different animal from the kind of UBI that the question is about.
– TKK
yesterday
4
@TKK Oh? "Logically speaking, this sounds like a tax refund" is in the question, so it seems exactly like what the question is asking about.
– Joe
yesterday
2
@TKK Murray's proposal still pays every American a minimum amount, so it's still universal even though it pays poor people a few thousand dollars more
– Joe
yesterday
1
Murray's proposal would pay $0 to people earning exactly the standard deduction. Yang's proposal would pay those people (and everyone else) $1000/month. Yang's proposal is "universal"; Murray's is purposefully not.
– TKK
yesterday
2
@TKK Murray's proposal says nothing about deductions. Also, negative income tax is identical to a UBI system that has no standard deduction.
– eyeballfrog
23 hours ago
While some might call this UBI, I think it's an entirely different animal from the kind of UBI that the question is about.
– TKK
yesterday
While some might call this UBI, I think it's an entirely different animal from the kind of UBI that the question is about.
– TKK
yesterday
4
4
@TKK Oh? "Logically speaking, this sounds like a tax refund" is in the question, so it seems exactly like what the question is asking about.
– Joe
yesterday
@TKK Oh? "Logically speaking, this sounds like a tax refund" is in the question, so it seems exactly like what the question is asking about.
– Joe
yesterday
2
2
@TKK Murray's proposal still pays every American a minimum amount, so it's still universal even though it pays poor people a few thousand dollars more
– Joe
yesterday
@TKK Murray's proposal still pays every American a minimum amount, so it's still universal even though it pays poor people a few thousand dollars more
– Joe
yesterday
1
1
Murray's proposal would pay $0 to people earning exactly the standard deduction. Yang's proposal would pay those people (and everyone else) $1000/month. Yang's proposal is "universal"; Murray's is purposefully not.
– TKK
yesterday
Murray's proposal would pay $0 to people earning exactly the standard deduction. Yang's proposal would pay those people (and everyone else) $1000/month. Yang's proposal is "universal"; Murray's is purposefully not.
– TKK
yesterday
2
2
@TKK Murray's proposal says nothing about deductions. Also, negative income tax is identical to a UBI system that has no standard deduction.
– eyeballfrog
23 hours ago
@TKK Murray's proposal says nothing about deductions. Also, negative income tax is identical to a UBI system that has no standard deduction.
– eyeballfrog
23 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
Conservatives (even I dare say those famous conservatives mentioned in other answers) wouldn't support UBI in addition to current welfare policies, but there is a very good conservative case to be made for replacing current welfare (including related programs like social security) with UBI. It would replace a very complex and disjoint set of rules that is difficult and expensive to administer with a very simple set of rules with much less overhead.
A similar situation happened with cap and trade. Conservatives thought a market-based solution would be better, but then liberals wanted to add cap and trade on top of the existing regulatory burden.
1
Can you add some context/evidence for the second paragraph? I'm not sure what you're talking about here.
– gerrit
13 hours ago
add a comment |
Conservatives (even I dare say those famous conservatives mentioned in other answers) wouldn't support UBI in addition to current welfare policies, but there is a very good conservative case to be made for replacing current welfare (including related programs like social security) with UBI. It would replace a very complex and disjoint set of rules that is difficult and expensive to administer with a very simple set of rules with much less overhead.
A similar situation happened with cap and trade. Conservatives thought a market-based solution would be better, but then liberals wanted to add cap and trade on top of the existing regulatory burden.
1
Can you add some context/evidence for the second paragraph? I'm not sure what you're talking about here.
– gerrit
13 hours ago
add a comment |
Conservatives (even I dare say those famous conservatives mentioned in other answers) wouldn't support UBI in addition to current welfare policies, but there is a very good conservative case to be made for replacing current welfare (including related programs like social security) with UBI. It would replace a very complex and disjoint set of rules that is difficult and expensive to administer with a very simple set of rules with much less overhead.
A similar situation happened with cap and trade. Conservatives thought a market-based solution would be better, but then liberals wanted to add cap and trade on top of the existing regulatory burden.
Conservatives (even I dare say those famous conservatives mentioned in other answers) wouldn't support UBI in addition to current welfare policies, but there is a very good conservative case to be made for replacing current welfare (including related programs like social security) with UBI. It would replace a very complex and disjoint set of rules that is difficult and expensive to administer with a very simple set of rules with much less overhead.
A similar situation happened with cap and trade. Conservatives thought a market-based solution would be better, but then liberals wanted to add cap and trade on top of the existing regulatory burden.
answered 23 hours ago
Karl BielefeldtKarl Bielefeldt
1913
1913
1
Can you add some context/evidence for the second paragraph? I'm not sure what you're talking about here.
– gerrit
13 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Can you add some context/evidence for the second paragraph? I'm not sure what you're talking about here.
– gerrit
13 hours ago
1
1
Can you add some context/evidence for the second paragraph? I'm not sure what you're talking about here.
– gerrit
13 hours ago
Can you add some context/evidence for the second paragraph? I'm not sure what you're talking about here.
– gerrit
13 hours ago
add a comment |
Some conservatives (and liberals) have argued for UBI. The devil is in the details. The conservative plans are, as far as I can tell, a way to entirely substitute the existing US welfare system with UBI... a substitution that isn't quite palatable to liberals.
On the right, UBI has been endorsed by the likes of economist Milton Friedman, former president Richard Nixon, and libertarian pundit Charles Murray. On the left, Martin Luther King, Jr., former Democratic politician George McGovern, and the Green Party have all championed the idea of the government giving each citizen a certain amount of money on a regular basis—no strings attached.
Conservatives tend to see UBI as a strategy to replace most of the existing welfare state wholesale. Nixon, for instance, proposed a basic income for needy families as part of a plan to overhaul the New Deal-era welfare state.
The problem, of course, is that a UBI would be incredibly expensive. Robert Greenstein, founder and president of the Washington, D.C., thinktank Center for Budget and Policy Priorities, estimates that a $10,000 annual basic income would cost more than $3 trillion per year, consuming nearly all of the tax revenue that the government currently raises. A UBI of this scale would either crowd out most other social programs—the conservative wish—or would require ratcheting up the federal government’s tax collection.
Murray endorsed a basic income in a 2006 book, which proposed to scrap all existing safety-net programs in favor of a $10,000 yearly grant to each American adult. Bernstein objected, anticipating that the poor would be made worse off, and defending the safety net’s gains in fighting poverty.
Murray’s basic income looks a lot like a $10,000 Trojan horse. He explicitly rejects any additional government support for families with children, and would refuse any further public aid to those who fall in need after exhausting their income grant. Those with such misfortune, Murray says, must depend on charity.
Liberals like Bernstein are right to resist this sort of basic income. Murray’s plan would voucherize the entire welfare state—a buyout in exchange for unwinding the federal government’s social-insurance obligations.
[...]
In fact, getting government out of the business of providing beneficial services and instead cutting a flat check would mimic the corporate cost-control tactic of moving workers from defined benefit packages to defined contributions. This would complete the decades-long conservative push to reform our social insurance institutions by shifting risk on to individuals in order to promote personal responsibility, as Murray aspires to do with a UBI.
From how you describe Andrew Yang's proposal, it sounds a lot like those conservative (substitution) proposals. On the other hand, you may have misrepresented it somewhat, since some of the comments argue that he is planning to raise new taxes to pay for it... which wouldn't make a lot of sense for a pure substitution. I don't feel inclined to dig into his platform, but you now know what traits to pay attention to in terms of conservative vs liberal UBI proposals.
add a comment |
Some conservatives (and liberals) have argued for UBI. The devil is in the details. The conservative plans are, as far as I can tell, a way to entirely substitute the existing US welfare system with UBI... a substitution that isn't quite palatable to liberals.
On the right, UBI has been endorsed by the likes of economist Milton Friedman, former president Richard Nixon, and libertarian pundit Charles Murray. On the left, Martin Luther King, Jr., former Democratic politician George McGovern, and the Green Party have all championed the idea of the government giving each citizen a certain amount of money on a regular basis—no strings attached.
Conservatives tend to see UBI as a strategy to replace most of the existing welfare state wholesale. Nixon, for instance, proposed a basic income for needy families as part of a plan to overhaul the New Deal-era welfare state.
The problem, of course, is that a UBI would be incredibly expensive. Robert Greenstein, founder and president of the Washington, D.C., thinktank Center for Budget and Policy Priorities, estimates that a $10,000 annual basic income would cost more than $3 trillion per year, consuming nearly all of the tax revenue that the government currently raises. A UBI of this scale would either crowd out most other social programs—the conservative wish—or would require ratcheting up the federal government’s tax collection.
Murray endorsed a basic income in a 2006 book, which proposed to scrap all existing safety-net programs in favor of a $10,000 yearly grant to each American adult. Bernstein objected, anticipating that the poor would be made worse off, and defending the safety net’s gains in fighting poverty.
Murray’s basic income looks a lot like a $10,000 Trojan horse. He explicitly rejects any additional government support for families with children, and would refuse any further public aid to those who fall in need after exhausting their income grant. Those with such misfortune, Murray says, must depend on charity.
Liberals like Bernstein are right to resist this sort of basic income. Murray’s plan would voucherize the entire welfare state—a buyout in exchange for unwinding the federal government’s social-insurance obligations.
[...]
In fact, getting government out of the business of providing beneficial services and instead cutting a flat check would mimic the corporate cost-control tactic of moving workers from defined benefit packages to defined contributions. This would complete the decades-long conservative push to reform our social insurance institutions by shifting risk on to individuals in order to promote personal responsibility, as Murray aspires to do with a UBI.
From how you describe Andrew Yang's proposal, it sounds a lot like those conservative (substitution) proposals. On the other hand, you may have misrepresented it somewhat, since some of the comments argue that he is planning to raise new taxes to pay for it... which wouldn't make a lot of sense for a pure substitution. I don't feel inclined to dig into his platform, but you now know what traits to pay attention to in terms of conservative vs liberal UBI proposals.
add a comment |
Some conservatives (and liberals) have argued for UBI. The devil is in the details. The conservative plans are, as far as I can tell, a way to entirely substitute the existing US welfare system with UBI... a substitution that isn't quite palatable to liberals.
On the right, UBI has been endorsed by the likes of economist Milton Friedman, former president Richard Nixon, and libertarian pundit Charles Murray. On the left, Martin Luther King, Jr., former Democratic politician George McGovern, and the Green Party have all championed the idea of the government giving each citizen a certain amount of money on a regular basis—no strings attached.
Conservatives tend to see UBI as a strategy to replace most of the existing welfare state wholesale. Nixon, for instance, proposed a basic income for needy families as part of a plan to overhaul the New Deal-era welfare state.
The problem, of course, is that a UBI would be incredibly expensive. Robert Greenstein, founder and president of the Washington, D.C., thinktank Center for Budget and Policy Priorities, estimates that a $10,000 annual basic income would cost more than $3 trillion per year, consuming nearly all of the tax revenue that the government currently raises. A UBI of this scale would either crowd out most other social programs—the conservative wish—or would require ratcheting up the federal government’s tax collection.
Murray endorsed a basic income in a 2006 book, which proposed to scrap all existing safety-net programs in favor of a $10,000 yearly grant to each American adult. Bernstein objected, anticipating that the poor would be made worse off, and defending the safety net’s gains in fighting poverty.
Murray’s basic income looks a lot like a $10,000 Trojan horse. He explicitly rejects any additional government support for families with children, and would refuse any further public aid to those who fall in need after exhausting their income grant. Those with such misfortune, Murray says, must depend on charity.
Liberals like Bernstein are right to resist this sort of basic income. Murray’s plan would voucherize the entire welfare state—a buyout in exchange for unwinding the federal government’s social-insurance obligations.
[...]
In fact, getting government out of the business of providing beneficial services and instead cutting a flat check would mimic the corporate cost-control tactic of moving workers from defined benefit packages to defined contributions. This would complete the decades-long conservative push to reform our social insurance institutions by shifting risk on to individuals in order to promote personal responsibility, as Murray aspires to do with a UBI.
From how you describe Andrew Yang's proposal, it sounds a lot like those conservative (substitution) proposals. On the other hand, you may have misrepresented it somewhat, since some of the comments argue that he is planning to raise new taxes to pay for it... which wouldn't make a lot of sense for a pure substitution. I don't feel inclined to dig into his platform, but you now know what traits to pay attention to in terms of conservative vs liberal UBI proposals.
Some conservatives (and liberals) have argued for UBI. The devil is in the details. The conservative plans are, as far as I can tell, a way to entirely substitute the existing US welfare system with UBI... a substitution that isn't quite palatable to liberals.
On the right, UBI has been endorsed by the likes of economist Milton Friedman, former president Richard Nixon, and libertarian pundit Charles Murray. On the left, Martin Luther King, Jr., former Democratic politician George McGovern, and the Green Party have all championed the idea of the government giving each citizen a certain amount of money on a regular basis—no strings attached.
Conservatives tend to see UBI as a strategy to replace most of the existing welfare state wholesale. Nixon, for instance, proposed a basic income for needy families as part of a plan to overhaul the New Deal-era welfare state.
The problem, of course, is that a UBI would be incredibly expensive. Robert Greenstein, founder and president of the Washington, D.C., thinktank Center for Budget and Policy Priorities, estimates that a $10,000 annual basic income would cost more than $3 trillion per year, consuming nearly all of the tax revenue that the government currently raises. A UBI of this scale would either crowd out most other social programs—the conservative wish—or would require ratcheting up the federal government’s tax collection.
Murray endorsed a basic income in a 2006 book, which proposed to scrap all existing safety-net programs in favor of a $10,000 yearly grant to each American adult. Bernstein objected, anticipating that the poor would be made worse off, and defending the safety net’s gains in fighting poverty.
Murray’s basic income looks a lot like a $10,000 Trojan horse. He explicitly rejects any additional government support for families with children, and would refuse any further public aid to those who fall in need after exhausting their income grant. Those with such misfortune, Murray says, must depend on charity.
Liberals like Bernstein are right to resist this sort of basic income. Murray’s plan would voucherize the entire welfare state—a buyout in exchange for unwinding the federal government’s social-insurance obligations.
[...]
In fact, getting government out of the business of providing beneficial services and instead cutting a flat check would mimic the corporate cost-control tactic of moving workers from defined benefit packages to defined contributions. This would complete the decades-long conservative push to reform our social insurance institutions by shifting risk on to individuals in order to promote personal responsibility, as Murray aspires to do with a UBI.
From how you describe Andrew Yang's proposal, it sounds a lot like those conservative (substitution) proposals. On the other hand, you may have misrepresented it somewhat, since some of the comments argue that he is planning to raise new taxes to pay for it... which wouldn't make a lot of sense for a pure substitution. I don't feel inclined to dig into his platform, but you now know what traits to pay attention to in terms of conservative vs liberal UBI proposals.
edited 19 hours ago
answered 19 hours ago
FizzFizz
11.5k12874
11.5k12874
add a comment |
add a comment |
Conservatives want less government intervention when it comes to economic policies. Administering this program would create more government and would require funding of some sort.
I have pulled information from https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-ubi/ as I am not completely informed.
You say that current welfare beneficiaries that receive $1500 a month would continue receive $1500 if universal basic income is rolled out. Could you provide a source for that because I doubt a democrat would advocate a policy that does not benefit somebody currently on welfare. All I see is they cannot claim the full $1000, so maybe they will receive $2300 a month instead of $2500? Overall if the amount of money they get has increased, it will require more government administrative funding to process that money.
They propose to fund this program by putting a value added tax. It is really not much different from just straight up increasing taxes on businesses; end result is the same. Possibly businesses will just pay their workers less and justify it by saying their income is supplemented by universal basic income. It would also require government bureaucracy to collect this tax.
Overall, it is very clear that universal basic income is only a left wing platform. It is wealth redistribution that increases government. He could have simply said increase taxes on businesses and give it to poorer people and the end result is exactly the same.
1
Left and Right are not universal agreed conventions and even defining them cannot be done without some controversy. A common generalization is: Right defends income concentration in the belief the "better" among us will lead the way to prosperity. Left defends income distribution in the belief spreading prosperity to a bigger number of people is the right thing to do (prosperity generates prosperity).
– jean
yesterday
Administering this program would create more government, this is a misunderstanding. Replacing conditional money transfers by unconditional money transfers would mean less government, not more. I've even seen this used as an argument against UBI by labour unions representing government civil servants. Your final paragraph is also factually incorrect.
– gerrit
13 hours ago
@gerrit Unless you plan to get rid of welfare entirely, which he is not proposing, it would most definitely create more government as they will keep all the administrative staff for all current welfare programs and will create new agencies to send money for universal basic income. Not to mention you would need to create additional agencies to collect the new tax. There is also nothing actually incorrect about my last paragraph. The net cash flow is literally the same as if you tax wealthier people and gave it to the poor.
– Matthew Liu
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Conservatives want less government intervention when it comes to economic policies. Administering this program would create more government and would require funding of some sort.
I have pulled information from https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-ubi/ as I am not completely informed.
You say that current welfare beneficiaries that receive $1500 a month would continue receive $1500 if universal basic income is rolled out. Could you provide a source for that because I doubt a democrat would advocate a policy that does not benefit somebody currently on welfare. All I see is they cannot claim the full $1000, so maybe they will receive $2300 a month instead of $2500? Overall if the amount of money they get has increased, it will require more government administrative funding to process that money.
They propose to fund this program by putting a value added tax. It is really not much different from just straight up increasing taxes on businesses; end result is the same. Possibly businesses will just pay their workers less and justify it by saying their income is supplemented by universal basic income. It would also require government bureaucracy to collect this tax.
Overall, it is very clear that universal basic income is only a left wing platform. It is wealth redistribution that increases government. He could have simply said increase taxes on businesses and give it to poorer people and the end result is exactly the same.
1
Left and Right are not universal agreed conventions and even defining them cannot be done without some controversy. A common generalization is: Right defends income concentration in the belief the "better" among us will lead the way to prosperity. Left defends income distribution in the belief spreading prosperity to a bigger number of people is the right thing to do (prosperity generates prosperity).
– jean
yesterday
Administering this program would create more government, this is a misunderstanding. Replacing conditional money transfers by unconditional money transfers would mean less government, not more. I've even seen this used as an argument against UBI by labour unions representing government civil servants. Your final paragraph is also factually incorrect.
– gerrit
13 hours ago
@gerrit Unless you plan to get rid of welfare entirely, which he is not proposing, it would most definitely create more government as they will keep all the administrative staff for all current welfare programs and will create new agencies to send money for universal basic income. Not to mention you would need to create additional agencies to collect the new tax. There is also nothing actually incorrect about my last paragraph. The net cash flow is literally the same as if you tax wealthier people and gave it to the poor.
– Matthew Liu
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Conservatives want less government intervention when it comes to economic policies. Administering this program would create more government and would require funding of some sort.
I have pulled information from https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-ubi/ as I am not completely informed.
You say that current welfare beneficiaries that receive $1500 a month would continue receive $1500 if universal basic income is rolled out. Could you provide a source for that because I doubt a democrat would advocate a policy that does not benefit somebody currently on welfare. All I see is they cannot claim the full $1000, so maybe they will receive $2300 a month instead of $2500? Overall if the amount of money they get has increased, it will require more government administrative funding to process that money.
They propose to fund this program by putting a value added tax. It is really not much different from just straight up increasing taxes on businesses; end result is the same. Possibly businesses will just pay their workers less and justify it by saying their income is supplemented by universal basic income. It would also require government bureaucracy to collect this tax.
Overall, it is very clear that universal basic income is only a left wing platform. It is wealth redistribution that increases government. He could have simply said increase taxes on businesses and give it to poorer people and the end result is exactly the same.
Conservatives want less government intervention when it comes to economic policies. Administering this program would create more government and would require funding of some sort.
I have pulled information from https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-ubi/ as I am not completely informed.
You say that current welfare beneficiaries that receive $1500 a month would continue receive $1500 if universal basic income is rolled out. Could you provide a source for that because I doubt a democrat would advocate a policy that does not benefit somebody currently on welfare. All I see is they cannot claim the full $1000, so maybe they will receive $2300 a month instead of $2500? Overall if the amount of money they get has increased, it will require more government administrative funding to process that money.
They propose to fund this program by putting a value added tax. It is really not much different from just straight up increasing taxes on businesses; end result is the same. Possibly businesses will just pay their workers less and justify it by saying their income is supplemented by universal basic income. It would also require government bureaucracy to collect this tax.
Overall, it is very clear that universal basic income is only a left wing platform. It is wealth redistribution that increases government. He could have simply said increase taxes on businesses and give it to poorer people and the end result is exactly the same.
answered yesterday
Matthew LiuMatthew Liu
6741210
6741210
1
Left and Right are not universal agreed conventions and even defining them cannot be done without some controversy. A common generalization is: Right defends income concentration in the belief the "better" among us will lead the way to prosperity. Left defends income distribution in the belief spreading prosperity to a bigger number of people is the right thing to do (prosperity generates prosperity).
– jean
yesterday
Administering this program would create more government, this is a misunderstanding. Replacing conditional money transfers by unconditional money transfers would mean less government, not more. I've even seen this used as an argument against UBI by labour unions representing government civil servants. Your final paragraph is also factually incorrect.
– gerrit
13 hours ago
@gerrit Unless you plan to get rid of welfare entirely, which he is not proposing, it would most definitely create more government as they will keep all the administrative staff for all current welfare programs and will create new agencies to send money for universal basic income. Not to mention you would need to create additional agencies to collect the new tax. There is also nothing actually incorrect about my last paragraph. The net cash flow is literally the same as if you tax wealthier people and gave it to the poor.
– Matthew Liu
5 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Left and Right are not universal agreed conventions and even defining them cannot be done without some controversy. A common generalization is: Right defends income concentration in the belief the "better" among us will lead the way to prosperity. Left defends income distribution in the belief spreading prosperity to a bigger number of people is the right thing to do (prosperity generates prosperity).
– jean
yesterday
Administering this program would create more government, this is a misunderstanding. Replacing conditional money transfers by unconditional money transfers would mean less government, not more. I've even seen this used as an argument against UBI by labour unions representing government civil servants. Your final paragraph is also factually incorrect.
– gerrit
13 hours ago
@gerrit Unless you plan to get rid of welfare entirely, which he is not proposing, it would most definitely create more government as they will keep all the administrative staff for all current welfare programs and will create new agencies to send money for universal basic income. Not to mention you would need to create additional agencies to collect the new tax. There is also nothing actually incorrect about my last paragraph. The net cash flow is literally the same as if you tax wealthier people and gave it to the poor.
– Matthew Liu
5 hours ago
1
1
Left and Right are not universal agreed conventions and even defining them cannot be done without some controversy. A common generalization is: Right defends income concentration in the belief the "better" among us will lead the way to prosperity. Left defends income distribution in the belief spreading prosperity to a bigger number of people is the right thing to do (prosperity generates prosperity).
– jean
yesterday
Left and Right are not universal agreed conventions and even defining them cannot be done without some controversy. A common generalization is: Right defends income concentration in the belief the "better" among us will lead the way to prosperity. Left defends income distribution in the belief spreading prosperity to a bigger number of people is the right thing to do (prosperity generates prosperity).
– jean
yesterday
Administering this program would create more government, this is a misunderstanding. Replacing conditional money transfers by unconditional money transfers would mean less government, not more. I've even seen this used as an argument against UBI by labour unions representing government civil servants. Your final paragraph is also factually incorrect.
– gerrit
13 hours ago
Administering this program would create more government, this is a misunderstanding. Replacing conditional money transfers by unconditional money transfers would mean less government, not more. I've even seen this used as an argument against UBI by labour unions representing government civil servants. Your final paragraph is also factually incorrect.
– gerrit
13 hours ago
@gerrit Unless you plan to get rid of welfare entirely, which he is not proposing, it would most definitely create more government as they will keep all the administrative staff for all current welfare programs and will create new agencies to send money for universal basic income. Not to mention you would need to create additional agencies to collect the new tax. There is also nothing actually incorrect about my last paragraph. The net cash flow is literally the same as if you tax wealthier people and gave it to the poor.
– Matthew Liu
5 hours ago
@gerrit Unless you plan to get rid of welfare entirely, which he is not proposing, it would most definitely create more government as they will keep all the administrative staff for all current welfare programs and will create new agencies to send money for universal basic income. Not to mention you would need to create additional agencies to collect the new tax. There is also nothing actually incorrect about my last paragraph. The net cash flow is literally the same as if you tax wealthier people and gave it to the poor.
– Matthew Liu
5 hours ago
add a comment |
I was just listening to an interview with someone who wrote a book about this. Universal basic income nearly passed under Nixon. It was passed by the conservative senate and the liberal house didn't pass it because they were holding out for a higher wage.
In parallel we were doing research where we gave groups of people a basic income to see what happened. One of the outcomes was that they were no less productive (Somewhat more I think), but one of the "Outcomes" of the test was (it turns out incorrectly) interpreted as women with the financial freedom had more of a tendency to divorce their husbands and strike out on their own.
This result caused major concern among conservatives. The story persisted for years even though they quickly figured out that this had just been a misinterpretation of the results.
I'll try to find the name of that book and add it to this message.
update:
Googled it and Wikipedia had this:
Guaranteed minimum income (GMI), also called minimum income, is a system[1] of social welfare provision that guarantees that all citizens or families have an income sufficient to live on, provided they meet certain conditions. Eligibility is typically determined by citizenship, a means test, and either availability for the labour market or a willingness to perform community services. The primary goal of a guaranteed minimum income is to reduce poverty. If citizenship is the only requirement, the system turns into a universal basic income.
Nixon's proposal was a GMI (I believe he called it GAI, Guaranteed Annual Income) which probably excluded some people that would have been involved in a UBI. Also the article mentioned that I got it backwards, the house passed it but it hung in the senate.
1
Can you add some details about the scheme nearly passed under Nixon? Does it meet the characteristics of how current proponents of UBI actually define it?
– gerrit
13 hours ago
1
Guaranteed minimum income is means-tested, meaning it has more complex eligibility criteria and associated bureaucracy. Basic income is not means tested, and usually criteria are limited to citizenship or residency. They have significantly different economic effects and political considerations.
– sondra.kinsey
1 hour ago
add a comment |
I was just listening to an interview with someone who wrote a book about this. Universal basic income nearly passed under Nixon. It was passed by the conservative senate and the liberal house didn't pass it because they were holding out for a higher wage.
In parallel we were doing research where we gave groups of people a basic income to see what happened. One of the outcomes was that they were no less productive (Somewhat more I think), but one of the "Outcomes" of the test was (it turns out incorrectly) interpreted as women with the financial freedom had more of a tendency to divorce their husbands and strike out on their own.
This result caused major concern among conservatives. The story persisted for years even though they quickly figured out that this had just been a misinterpretation of the results.
I'll try to find the name of that book and add it to this message.
update:
Googled it and Wikipedia had this:
Guaranteed minimum income (GMI), also called minimum income, is a system[1] of social welfare provision that guarantees that all citizens or families have an income sufficient to live on, provided they meet certain conditions. Eligibility is typically determined by citizenship, a means test, and either availability for the labour market or a willingness to perform community services. The primary goal of a guaranteed minimum income is to reduce poverty. If citizenship is the only requirement, the system turns into a universal basic income.
Nixon's proposal was a GMI (I believe he called it GAI, Guaranteed Annual Income) which probably excluded some people that would have been involved in a UBI. Also the article mentioned that I got it backwards, the house passed it but it hung in the senate.
1
Can you add some details about the scheme nearly passed under Nixon? Does it meet the characteristics of how current proponents of UBI actually define it?
– gerrit
13 hours ago
1
Guaranteed minimum income is means-tested, meaning it has more complex eligibility criteria and associated bureaucracy. Basic income is not means tested, and usually criteria are limited to citizenship or residency. They have significantly different economic effects and political considerations.
– sondra.kinsey
1 hour ago
add a comment |
I was just listening to an interview with someone who wrote a book about this. Universal basic income nearly passed under Nixon. It was passed by the conservative senate and the liberal house didn't pass it because they were holding out for a higher wage.
In parallel we were doing research where we gave groups of people a basic income to see what happened. One of the outcomes was that they were no less productive (Somewhat more I think), but one of the "Outcomes" of the test was (it turns out incorrectly) interpreted as women with the financial freedom had more of a tendency to divorce their husbands and strike out on their own.
This result caused major concern among conservatives. The story persisted for years even though they quickly figured out that this had just been a misinterpretation of the results.
I'll try to find the name of that book and add it to this message.
update:
Googled it and Wikipedia had this:
Guaranteed minimum income (GMI), also called minimum income, is a system[1] of social welfare provision that guarantees that all citizens or families have an income sufficient to live on, provided they meet certain conditions. Eligibility is typically determined by citizenship, a means test, and either availability for the labour market or a willingness to perform community services. The primary goal of a guaranteed minimum income is to reduce poverty. If citizenship is the only requirement, the system turns into a universal basic income.
Nixon's proposal was a GMI (I believe he called it GAI, Guaranteed Annual Income) which probably excluded some people that would have been involved in a UBI. Also the article mentioned that I got it backwards, the house passed it but it hung in the senate.
I was just listening to an interview with someone who wrote a book about this. Universal basic income nearly passed under Nixon. It was passed by the conservative senate and the liberal house didn't pass it because they were holding out for a higher wage.
In parallel we were doing research where we gave groups of people a basic income to see what happened. One of the outcomes was that they were no less productive (Somewhat more I think), but one of the "Outcomes" of the test was (it turns out incorrectly) interpreted as women with the financial freedom had more of a tendency to divorce their husbands and strike out on their own.
This result caused major concern among conservatives. The story persisted for years even though they quickly figured out that this had just been a misinterpretation of the results.
I'll try to find the name of that book and add it to this message.
update:
Googled it and Wikipedia had this:
Guaranteed minimum income (GMI), also called minimum income, is a system[1] of social welfare provision that guarantees that all citizens or families have an income sufficient to live on, provided they meet certain conditions. Eligibility is typically determined by citizenship, a means test, and either availability for the labour market or a willingness to perform community services. The primary goal of a guaranteed minimum income is to reduce poverty. If citizenship is the only requirement, the system turns into a universal basic income.
Nixon's proposal was a GMI (I believe he called it GAI, Guaranteed Annual Income) which probably excluded some people that would have been involved in a UBI. Also the article mentioned that I got it backwards, the house passed it but it hung in the senate.
edited 6 hours ago
answered yesterday
Bill KBill K
23714
23714
1
Can you add some details about the scheme nearly passed under Nixon? Does it meet the characteristics of how current proponents of UBI actually define it?
– gerrit
13 hours ago
1
Guaranteed minimum income is means-tested, meaning it has more complex eligibility criteria and associated bureaucracy. Basic income is not means tested, and usually criteria are limited to citizenship or residency. They have significantly different economic effects and political considerations.
– sondra.kinsey
1 hour ago
add a comment |
1
Can you add some details about the scheme nearly passed under Nixon? Does it meet the characteristics of how current proponents of UBI actually define it?
– gerrit
13 hours ago
1
Guaranteed minimum income is means-tested, meaning it has more complex eligibility criteria and associated bureaucracy. Basic income is not means tested, and usually criteria are limited to citizenship or residency. They have significantly different economic effects and political considerations.
– sondra.kinsey
1 hour ago
1
1
Can you add some details about the scheme nearly passed under Nixon? Does it meet the characteristics of how current proponents of UBI actually define it?
– gerrit
13 hours ago
Can you add some details about the scheme nearly passed under Nixon? Does it meet the characteristics of how current proponents of UBI actually define it?
– gerrit
13 hours ago
1
1
Guaranteed minimum income is means-tested, meaning it has more complex eligibility criteria and associated bureaucracy. Basic income is not means tested, and usually criteria are limited to citizenship or residency. They have significantly different economic effects and political considerations.
– sondra.kinsey
1 hour ago
Guaranteed minimum income is means-tested, meaning it has more complex eligibility criteria and associated bureaucracy. Basic income is not means tested, and usually criteria are limited to citizenship or residency. They have significantly different economic effects and political considerations.
– sondra.kinsey
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Conservatives have historically been in favor of lower taxes for all, meaning the rich people they represent. Giving poor people a tax break exclusively doesn't benefit them in anyway.
Historically the U.S have had high income tax on rich people. But those were the days when they were in a race to beat the Soviet Union. Can't have the American people appear to be poor when you want to show that your system is better than theirs.
Today the Soviet Union is long gone and the threat of socialism only exists in the form of people like Bernie Sanders and AOC. So no wonder the freshman AOC gets constantly attacked by them. As they view her as their main threat right now.
When in reality, the best way to keep socialism away is to share some of that wealth with the working population. Rather than having 1% of the population owning 40% of the country's wealth.
Time to make America great again. By taxing the rich again.
add a comment |
Conservatives have historically been in favor of lower taxes for all, meaning the rich people they represent. Giving poor people a tax break exclusively doesn't benefit them in anyway.
Historically the U.S have had high income tax on rich people. But those were the days when they were in a race to beat the Soviet Union. Can't have the American people appear to be poor when you want to show that your system is better than theirs.
Today the Soviet Union is long gone and the threat of socialism only exists in the form of people like Bernie Sanders and AOC. So no wonder the freshman AOC gets constantly attacked by them. As they view her as their main threat right now.
When in reality, the best way to keep socialism away is to share some of that wealth with the working population. Rather than having 1% of the population owning 40% of the country's wealth.
Time to make America great again. By taxing the rich again.
add a comment |
Conservatives have historically been in favor of lower taxes for all, meaning the rich people they represent. Giving poor people a tax break exclusively doesn't benefit them in anyway.
Historically the U.S have had high income tax on rich people. But those were the days when they were in a race to beat the Soviet Union. Can't have the American people appear to be poor when you want to show that your system is better than theirs.
Today the Soviet Union is long gone and the threat of socialism only exists in the form of people like Bernie Sanders and AOC. So no wonder the freshman AOC gets constantly attacked by them. As they view her as their main threat right now.
When in reality, the best way to keep socialism away is to share some of that wealth with the working population. Rather than having 1% of the population owning 40% of the country's wealth.
Time to make America great again. By taxing the rich again.
Conservatives have historically been in favor of lower taxes for all, meaning the rich people they represent. Giving poor people a tax break exclusively doesn't benefit them in anyway.
Historically the U.S have had high income tax on rich people. But those were the days when they were in a race to beat the Soviet Union. Can't have the American people appear to be poor when you want to show that your system is better than theirs.
Today the Soviet Union is long gone and the threat of socialism only exists in the form of people like Bernie Sanders and AOC. So no wonder the freshman AOC gets constantly attacked by them. As they view her as their main threat right now.
When in reality, the best way to keep socialism away is to share some of that wealth with the working population. Rather than having 1% of the population owning 40% of the country's wealth.
Time to make America great again. By taxing the rich again.
answered 3 hours ago
dan-klassondan-klasson
1,1251614
1,1251614
add a comment |
add a comment |
Because doing so would be bad identity politics.
I mean, it's not like there haven't been prominent conservatives espousing guaranteed income: Milton "any tax cut is a good tax cut" Friedman was in favor.
But in the modern era, regardless of affiliation, it's all about the image you portray to your constituency. Leftists are loudly and conspicuously in favor of UBI: Conservatives don't want to be accused of selling out, and to distance themselves from the hated Other they oppose policies Leftists support regardless of the merits or lack thereof. N.B. this isn't just a problem on the Right.
2
The term "identity politics" usually refers to immutable characteristics such as race or nationality, not political beliefs. Aside from terminology, the answer is also factually incorrect; conservatives have been part of the initial proponents of this idea in the United States.
– Joe
yesterday
@Joe you can critique me about the meaning of "identity politics", I'm not going to argue semantics. But you're claiming I'm factually incorrect while agreeing with me? I specifically mentioned Milton Friedman supporting the idea. It doesn't get more conservative than that. I'm explaining why no conservative wants to touch it with a 10 foot pole in the Trump era.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
Yes, because Milton Friedman would probably object to being described as conservative, and even if he was, there are a set of conservatives who favor redistributing income through the tax system. Marco Rubio is definitely a proponent of expanded EITCs; idk what he thinks about the UBI but he and several other consevative senators have no aversion to spending money on poor people (and for that matter, neither does Trump; he was the one GOP candidate who made no promise for reforming benefits for fiscal reasons).
– Joe
yesterday
add a comment |
Because doing so would be bad identity politics.
I mean, it's not like there haven't been prominent conservatives espousing guaranteed income: Milton "any tax cut is a good tax cut" Friedman was in favor.
But in the modern era, regardless of affiliation, it's all about the image you portray to your constituency. Leftists are loudly and conspicuously in favor of UBI: Conservatives don't want to be accused of selling out, and to distance themselves from the hated Other they oppose policies Leftists support regardless of the merits or lack thereof. N.B. this isn't just a problem on the Right.
2
The term "identity politics" usually refers to immutable characteristics such as race or nationality, not political beliefs. Aside from terminology, the answer is also factually incorrect; conservatives have been part of the initial proponents of this idea in the United States.
– Joe
yesterday
@Joe you can critique me about the meaning of "identity politics", I'm not going to argue semantics. But you're claiming I'm factually incorrect while agreeing with me? I specifically mentioned Milton Friedman supporting the idea. It doesn't get more conservative than that. I'm explaining why no conservative wants to touch it with a 10 foot pole in the Trump era.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
Yes, because Milton Friedman would probably object to being described as conservative, and even if he was, there are a set of conservatives who favor redistributing income through the tax system. Marco Rubio is definitely a proponent of expanded EITCs; idk what he thinks about the UBI but he and several other consevative senators have no aversion to spending money on poor people (and for that matter, neither does Trump; he was the one GOP candidate who made no promise for reforming benefits for fiscal reasons).
– Joe
yesterday
add a comment |
Because doing so would be bad identity politics.
I mean, it's not like there haven't been prominent conservatives espousing guaranteed income: Milton "any tax cut is a good tax cut" Friedman was in favor.
But in the modern era, regardless of affiliation, it's all about the image you portray to your constituency. Leftists are loudly and conspicuously in favor of UBI: Conservatives don't want to be accused of selling out, and to distance themselves from the hated Other they oppose policies Leftists support regardless of the merits or lack thereof. N.B. this isn't just a problem on the Right.
Because doing so would be bad identity politics.
I mean, it's not like there haven't been prominent conservatives espousing guaranteed income: Milton "any tax cut is a good tax cut" Friedman was in favor.
But in the modern era, regardless of affiliation, it's all about the image you portray to your constituency. Leftists are loudly and conspicuously in favor of UBI: Conservatives don't want to be accused of selling out, and to distance themselves from the hated Other they oppose policies Leftists support regardless of the merits or lack thereof. N.B. this isn't just a problem on the Right.
answered yesterday
Jared SmithJared Smith
4,46321326
4,46321326
2
The term "identity politics" usually refers to immutable characteristics such as race or nationality, not political beliefs. Aside from terminology, the answer is also factually incorrect; conservatives have been part of the initial proponents of this idea in the United States.
– Joe
yesterday
@Joe you can critique me about the meaning of "identity politics", I'm not going to argue semantics. But you're claiming I'm factually incorrect while agreeing with me? I specifically mentioned Milton Friedman supporting the idea. It doesn't get more conservative than that. I'm explaining why no conservative wants to touch it with a 10 foot pole in the Trump era.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
Yes, because Milton Friedman would probably object to being described as conservative, and even if he was, there are a set of conservatives who favor redistributing income through the tax system. Marco Rubio is definitely a proponent of expanded EITCs; idk what he thinks about the UBI but he and several other consevative senators have no aversion to spending money on poor people (and for that matter, neither does Trump; he was the one GOP candidate who made no promise for reforming benefits for fiscal reasons).
– Joe
yesterday
add a comment |
2
The term "identity politics" usually refers to immutable characteristics such as race or nationality, not political beliefs. Aside from terminology, the answer is also factually incorrect; conservatives have been part of the initial proponents of this idea in the United States.
– Joe
yesterday
@Joe you can critique me about the meaning of "identity politics", I'm not going to argue semantics. But you're claiming I'm factually incorrect while agreeing with me? I specifically mentioned Milton Friedman supporting the idea. It doesn't get more conservative than that. I'm explaining why no conservative wants to touch it with a 10 foot pole in the Trump era.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
Yes, because Milton Friedman would probably object to being described as conservative, and even if he was, there are a set of conservatives who favor redistributing income through the tax system. Marco Rubio is definitely a proponent of expanded EITCs; idk what he thinks about the UBI but he and several other consevative senators have no aversion to spending money on poor people (and for that matter, neither does Trump; he was the one GOP candidate who made no promise for reforming benefits for fiscal reasons).
– Joe
yesterday
2
2
The term "identity politics" usually refers to immutable characteristics such as race or nationality, not political beliefs. Aside from terminology, the answer is also factually incorrect; conservatives have been part of the initial proponents of this idea in the United States.
– Joe
yesterday
The term "identity politics" usually refers to immutable characteristics such as race or nationality, not political beliefs. Aside from terminology, the answer is also factually incorrect; conservatives have been part of the initial proponents of this idea in the United States.
– Joe
yesterday
@Joe you can critique me about the meaning of "identity politics", I'm not going to argue semantics. But you're claiming I'm factually incorrect while agreeing with me? I specifically mentioned Milton Friedman supporting the idea. It doesn't get more conservative than that. I'm explaining why no conservative wants to touch it with a 10 foot pole in the Trump era.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
@Joe you can critique me about the meaning of "identity politics", I'm not going to argue semantics. But you're claiming I'm factually incorrect while agreeing with me? I specifically mentioned Milton Friedman supporting the idea. It doesn't get more conservative than that. I'm explaining why no conservative wants to touch it with a 10 foot pole in the Trump era.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
Yes, because Milton Friedman would probably object to being described as conservative, and even if he was, there are a set of conservatives who favor redistributing income through the tax system. Marco Rubio is definitely a proponent of expanded EITCs; idk what he thinks about the UBI but he and several other consevative senators have no aversion to spending money on poor people (and for that matter, neither does Trump; he was the one GOP candidate who made no promise for reforming benefits for fiscal reasons).
– Joe
yesterday
Yes, because Milton Friedman would probably object to being described as conservative, and even if he was, there are a set of conservatives who favor redistributing income through the tax system. Marco Rubio is definitely a proponent of expanded EITCs; idk what he thinks about the UBI but he and several other consevative senators have no aversion to spending money on poor people (and for that matter, neither does Trump; he was the one GOP candidate who made no promise for reforming benefits for fiscal reasons).
– Joe
yesterday
add a comment |
protected by Philipp♦ yesterday
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– Philipp♦
yesterday
4
For context, universal basic income was endorsed by conversative economists Friederich Hayek and Milton Friedman. At a high level, the description in your question seems to apply perfectly to Friedman's idea.
– JimmyJames
yesterday
3
Shouldn't group which comprises roughly 50% of the population believe certain thing? This question isn't great, because it suggests a homogeneity that does not necessarily exist.
– Stephen
21 hours ago
1
Which group of conservative ? A strict-father conservative will practice "law of the jungle", not use UBI is bad to them, even a universal vaccination program is bad.
– mootmoot
12 hours ago
There seems to be a problem with the grammar of that sentence around the word "trust".
– hkBst
5 hours ago