Why is North-Korean communist leader Kim Il-sung called Kin Ir Sen in some languages?
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Looking on Wikipedia I see that in many of the languages of the former communist countries, namely East European, the North Korean leader Kim Il Sung (or Song) (1912-1994) is called Kim Ir Sen. (I am posting the Polish page because it has more links to other languages than other pages have.)
The difference is not in the family name - which is Kim.
It seems a difference based on the former political divide of the Cold War, as in French and other West European languages, but also in Turkish and Greek (Turkey and Greece already being NATO members at the time), the name used is the same as in English. On Wikipedia I have not found a non (former) communist country that calls him Kim Ir Sen.
I see no linguistic similarity between countries using the same form of the name (Russian, Latvian, Albanian, Romanian share the same "communist" form), so the cause must be politic. But how has been the political divide projected in the name of this man?
To make things more interesting, there are also some exceptions: in former-Yugoslav countries, that is on the Wikipedia pages in Serbian, Croat, Slovenian and Macedonian, he is called like in the Western Europe: Kim Il Sung.
In Bulgarian, which is close if not identical to Macedonian, it's Kim Ir Sen. At least Croats and Serbs use the same name... But not Slovak and Czech, which were in the same country during the communist era: the Wikipedia page in Slovakian uses the "Western" form.
Maybe this differences between neighbours are recent. Are they also political?
communism names north-korea
asked 4 hours ago
cipricus
1,099818
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show 1 more comment
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
Looking on Wikipedia I see that in many of the languages of the former communist countries, namely East European, the North Korean leader Kim Il Sung (or Song) (1912-1994) is called Kim Ir Sen. (I am posting the Polish page because it has more links to other languages than other pages have.)
The difference is not in the family name - which is Kim.
It seems a difference based on the former political divide of the Cold War, as in French and other West European languages, but also in Turkish and Greek (Turkey and Greece already being NATO members at the time), the name used is the same as in English. On Wikipedia I have not found a non (former) communist country that calls him Kim Ir Sen.
I see no linguistic similarity between countries using the same form of the name (Russian, Latvian, Albanian, Romanian share the same "communist" form), so the cause must be politic. But how has been the political divide projected in the name of this man?
To make things more interesting, there are also some exceptions: in former-Yugoslav countries, that is on the Wikipedia pages in Serbian, Croat, Slovenian and Macedonian, he is called like in the Western Europe: Kim Il Sung.
In Bulgarian, which is close if not identical to Macedonian, it's Kim Ir Sen. At least Croats and Serbs use the same name... But not Slovak and Czech, which were in the same country during the communist era: the Wikipedia page in Slovakian uses the "Western" form.
Maybe this differences between neighbours are recent. Are they also political?
communism names north-korea
asked 4 hours ago
cipricus
1,099818
its spelled different but still pronounced the same way. source: a polish friend.
– ed.hank
3 hours ago
@ed.hank - I speak Romanian, English, French, Italian, have notions of Bulgarian and Serbian, I can say that is not true, it does not sound the same in all these languages. What that could mean is that the Korean names can be transcribed in different ways in European languages. But it is transcribed in only two ways, and these two ways are separated as I describe. Why?
– cipricus
3 hours ago
hmm i dont know why he would lie to me about something so silly. but im not polish so i wouldnt know.
– ed.hank
3 hours ago
@ed.hank - it is not a lie, sorry. I have updated comment to clarify what I mean. But what does your friend mean: it sounds the same in Polish? Why he being Polish is even significant here?
– cipricus
3 hours ago
im curious as to the answer too. his being polish is significant because a pole would likely know more about communist bloc slavic languages much more than i would.
– ed.hank
3 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
Looking on Wikipedia I see that in many of the languages of the former communist countries, namely East European, the North Korean leader Kim Il Sung (or Song) (1912-1994) is called Kim Ir Sen. (I am posting the Polish page because it has more links to other languages than other pages have.)
The difference is not in the family name - which is Kim.
It seems a difference based on the former political divide of the Cold War, as in French and other West European languages, but also in Turkish and Greek (Turkey and Greece already being NATO members at the time), the name used is the same as in English. On Wikipedia I have not found a non (former) communist country that calls him Kim Ir Sen.
I see no linguistic similarity between countries using the same form of the name (Russian, Latvian, Albanian, Romanian share the same "communist" form), so the cause must be politic. But how has been the political divide projected in the name of this man?
To make things more interesting, there are also some exceptions: in former-Yugoslav countries, that is on the Wikipedia pages in Serbian, Croat, Slovenian and Macedonian, he is called like in the Western Europe: Kim Il Sung.
In Bulgarian, which is close if not identical to Macedonian, it's Kim Ir Sen. At least Croats and Serbs use the same name... But not Slovak and Czech, which were in the same country during the communist era: the Wikipedia page in Slovakian uses the "Western" form.
Maybe this differences between neighbours are recent. Are they also political?
communism names north-korea
asked 4 hours ago
cipricus
1,099818
Looking on Wikipedia I see that in many of the languages of the former communist countries, namely East European, the North Korean leader Kim Il Sung (or Song) (1912-1994) is called Kim Ir Sen. (I am posting the Polish page because it has more links to other languages than other pages have.)
The difference is not in the family name - which is Kim.
It seems a difference based on the former political divide of the Cold War, as in French and other West European languages, but also in Turkish and Greek (Turkey and Greece already being NATO members at the time), the name used is the same as in English. On Wikipedia I have not found a non (former) communist country that calls him Kim Ir Sen.
I see no linguistic similarity between countries using the same form of the name (Russian, Latvian, Albanian, Romanian share the same "communist" form), so the cause must be politic. But how has been the political divide projected in the name of this man?
To make things more interesting, there are also some exceptions: in former-Yugoslav countries, that is on the Wikipedia pages in Serbian, Croat, Slovenian and Macedonian, he is called like in the Western Europe: Kim Il Sung.
In Bulgarian, which is close if not identical to Macedonian, it's Kim Ir Sen. At least Croats and Serbs use the same name... But not Slovak and Czech, which were in the same country during the communist era: the Wikipedia page in Slovakian uses the "Western" form.
Maybe this differences between neighbours are recent. Are they also political?
communism names north-korea
communism names north-korea
asked 4 hours ago
cipricus
1,099818
asked 4 hours ago
cipricus
1,099818
edited 4 hours ago
asked 4 hours ago
cipricus
1,099818
asked 4 hours ago
cipricus
1,099818
asked 4 hours ago
cipricus
1,099818
1,099818
its spelled different but still pronounced the same way. source: a polish friend.
– ed.hank
3 hours ago
@ed.hank - I speak Romanian, English, French, Italian, have notions of Bulgarian and Serbian, I can say that is not true, it does not sound the same in all these languages. What that could mean is that the Korean names can be transcribed in different ways in European languages. But it is transcribed in only two ways, and these two ways are separated as I describe. Why?
– cipricus
3 hours ago
hmm i dont know why he would lie to me about something so silly. but im not polish so i wouldnt know.
– ed.hank
3 hours ago
@ed.hank - it is not a lie, sorry. I have updated comment to clarify what I mean. But what does your friend mean: it sounds the same in Polish? Why he being Polish is even significant here?
– cipricus
3 hours ago
im curious as to the answer too. his being polish is significant because a pole would likely know more about communist bloc slavic languages much more than i would.
– ed.hank
3 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
its spelled different but still pronounced the same way. source: a polish friend.
– ed.hank
3 hours ago
@ed.hank - I speak Romanian, English, French, Italian, have notions of Bulgarian and Serbian, I can say that is not true, it does not sound the same in all these languages. What that could mean is that the Korean names can be transcribed in different ways in European languages. But it is transcribed in only two ways, and these two ways are separated as I describe. Why?
– cipricus
3 hours ago
hmm i dont know why he would lie to me about something so silly. but im not polish so i wouldnt know.
– ed.hank
3 hours ago
@ed.hank - it is not a lie, sorry. I have updated comment to clarify what I mean. But what does your friend mean: it sounds the same in Polish? Why he being Polish is even significant here?
– cipricus
3 hours ago
im curious as to the answer too. his being polish is significant because a pole would likely know more about communist bloc slavic languages much more than i would.
– ed.hank
3 hours ago
its spelled different but still pronounced the same way. source: a polish friend.
– ed.hank
3 hours ago
its spelled different but still pronounced the same way. source: a polish friend.
– ed.hank
3 hours ago
@ed.hank - I speak Romanian, English, French, Italian, have notions of Bulgarian and Serbian, I can say that is not true, it does not sound the same in all these languages. What that could mean is that the Korean names can be transcribed in different ways in European languages. But it is transcribed in only two ways, and these two ways are separated as I describe. Why?
– cipricus
3 hours ago
@ed.hank - I speak Romanian, English, French, Italian, have notions of Bulgarian and Serbian, I can say that is not true, it does not sound the same in all these languages. What that could mean is that the Korean names can be transcribed in different ways in European languages. But it is transcribed in only two ways, and these two ways are separated as I describe. Why?
– cipricus
3 hours ago
hmm i dont know why he would lie to me about something so silly. but im not polish so i wouldnt know.
– ed.hank
3 hours ago
hmm i dont know why he would lie to me about something so silly. but im not polish so i wouldnt know.
– ed.hank
3 hours ago
@ed.hank - it is not a lie, sorry. I have updated comment to clarify what I mean. But what does your friend mean: it sounds the same in Polish? Why he being Polish is even significant here?
– cipricus
3 hours ago
@ed.hank - it is not a lie, sorry. I have updated comment to clarify what I mean. But what does your friend mean: it sounds the same in Polish? Why he being Polish is even significant here?
– cipricus
3 hours ago
im curious as to the answer too. his being polish is significant because a pole would likely know more about communist bloc slavic languages much more than i would.
– ed.hank
3 hours ago
im curious as to the answer too. his being polish is significant because a pole would likely know more about communist bloc slavic languages much more than i would.
– ed.hank
3 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
1 Answer
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Under an older system of transliteration, the Russians transliterated 김일성 (Kim Il-Sung) as Ким Ир Сен (Kim Irsen), which is still the standard way of rendering his name in Russian. Under the currently standard Kontsevich system, it would instead be transliterated as Ким Ильсо́н (Kim Ilson).
It seems that those countries that were closer to Russia politically tended to follow the Russian transliteration Ким Ир Сен (Kim Irsen); while those more to the west tended to use the Roman transliteration Kim Il-Sung.
By the way, this explains why Kim Jong-Il (son of Kim Il-Sung) was born Yuri Irsenovich (son of Ir Sen) Kim.
See this discussion: https://thediacritics.wordpress.com/2012/01/03/whats-in-a-kim/
answered 3 hours ago
Kenny LJ
2,59232047
1
was born Yuri Irsenovich- you mean in Russian :)
– cipricus
3 hours ago
1
He was born on Soviet soil (despite the official North Korean mythology that he was born on Paektu Mountain in Korea). And so his Soviet birth record would probably have been in Russian. Time magazine: "According to Soviet records, Kim was born there as Yury Irsenovich Kim, the son of a rank and file officer of the Red Army, Kim Il-Sung".
– Kenny LJ
2 hours ago
So, no special reverential appellative in the "communist" form of the Kim Ir Sen name then! As my childhood was lived under the "Golden" era of Ceausescu for whom Kim Ir Sen was a master to emulate, I was expecting something like the Japanese "san" or "sensei" - look here and here two youtube versions of the same example of exotic propaganda.
– cipricus
2 hours ago
add a comment |
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1 Answer
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1 Answer
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oldest
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up vote
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Under an older system of transliteration, the Russians transliterated 김일성 (Kim Il-Sung) as Ким Ир Сен (Kim Irsen), which is still the standard way of rendering his name in Russian. Under the currently standard Kontsevich system, it would instead be transliterated as Ким Ильсо́н (Kim Ilson).
It seems that those countries that were closer to Russia politically tended to follow the Russian transliteration Ким Ир Сен (Kim Irsen); while those more to the west tended to use the Roman transliteration Kim Il-Sung.
By the way, this explains why Kim Jong-Il (son of Kim Il-Sung) was born Yuri Irsenovich (son of Ir Sen) Kim.
See this discussion: https://thediacritics.wordpress.com/2012/01/03/whats-in-a-kim/
answered 3 hours ago
Kenny LJ
2,59232047
1
was born Yuri Irsenovich- you mean in Russian :)
– cipricus
3 hours ago
1
He was born on Soviet soil (despite the official North Korean mythology that he was born on Paektu Mountain in Korea). And so his Soviet birth record would probably have been in Russian. Time magazine: "According to Soviet records, Kim was born there as Yury Irsenovich Kim, the son of a rank and file officer of the Red Army, Kim Il-Sung".
– Kenny LJ
2 hours ago
So, no special reverential appellative in the "communist" form of the Kim Ir Sen name then! As my childhood was lived under the "Golden" era of Ceausescu for whom Kim Ir Sen was a master to emulate, I was expecting something like the Japanese "san" or "sensei" - look here and here two youtube versions of the same example of exotic propaganda.
– cipricus
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Under an older system of transliteration, the Russians transliterated 김일성 (Kim Il-Sung) as Ким Ир Сен (Kim Irsen), which is still the standard way of rendering his name in Russian. Under the currently standard Kontsevich system, it would instead be transliterated as Ким Ильсо́н (Kim Ilson).
It seems that those countries that were closer to Russia politically tended to follow the Russian transliteration Ким Ир Сен (Kim Irsen); while those more to the west tended to use the Roman transliteration Kim Il-Sung.
By the way, this explains why Kim Jong-Il (son of Kim Il-Sung) was born Yuri Irsenovich (son of Ir Sen) Kim.
See this discussion: https://thediacritics.wordpress.com/2012/01/03/whats-in-a-kim/
answered 3 hours ago
Kenny LJ
2,59232047
1
was born Yuri Irsenovich- you mean in Russian :)
– cipricus
3 hours ago
1
He was born on Soviet soil (despite the official North Korean mythology that he was born on Paektu Mountain in Korea). And so his Soviet birth record would probably have been in Russian. Time magazine: "According to Soviet records, Kim was born there as Yury Irsenovich Kim, the son of a rank and file officer of the Red Army, Kim Il-Sung".
– Kenny LJ
2 hours ago
So, no special reverential appellative in the "communist" form of the Kim Ir Sen name then! As my childhood was lived under the "Golden" era of Ceausescu for whom Kim Ir Sen was a master to emulate, I was expecting something like the Japanese "san" or "sensei" - look here and here two youtube versions of the same example of exotic propaganda.
– cipricus
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
Under an older system of transliteration, the Russians transliterated 김일성 (Kim Il-Sung) as Ким Ир Сен (Kim Irsen), which is still the standard way of rendering his name in Russian. Under the currently standard Kontsevich system, it would instead be transliterated as Ким Ильсо́н (Kim Ilson).
It seems that those countries that were closer to Russia politically tended to follow the Russian transliteration Ким Ир Сен (Kim Irsen); while those more to the west tended to use the Roman transliteration Kim Il-Sung.
By the way, this explains why Kim Jong-Il (son of Kim Il-Sung) was born Yuri Irsenovich (son of Ir Sen) Kim.
See this discussion: https://thediacritics.wordpress.com/2012/01/03/whats-in-a-kim/
answered 3 hours ago
Kenny LJ
2,59232047
Under an older system of transliteration, the Russians transliterated 김일성 (Kim Il-Sung) as Ким Ир Сен (Kim Irsen), which is still the standard way of rendering his name in Russian. Under the currently standard Kontsevich system, it would instead be transliterated as Ким Ильсо́н (Kim Ilson).
It seems that those countries that were closer to Russia politically tended to follow the Russian transliteration Ким Ир Сен (Kim Irsen); while those more to the west tended to use the Roman transliteration Kim Il-Sung.
By the way, this explains why Kim Jong-Il (son of Kim Il-Sung) was born Yuri Irsenovich (son of Ir Sen) Kim.
See this discussion: https://thediacritics.wordpress.com/2012/01/03/whats-in-a-kim/
answered 3 hours ago
Kenny LJ
2,59232047
answered 3 hours ago
Kenny LJ
2,59232047
answered 3 hours ago
Kenny LJ
2,59232047
answered 3 hours ago
Kenny LJ
2,59232047
2,59232047
1
was born Yuri Irsenovich- you mean in Russian :)
– cipricus
3 hours ago
1
He was born on Soviet soil (despite the official North Korean mythology that he was born on Paektu Mountain in Korea). And so his Soviet birth record would probably have been in Russian. Time magazine: "According to Soviet records, Kim was born there as Yury Irsenovich Kim, the son of a rank and file officer of the Red Army, Kim Il-Sung".
– Kenny LJ
2 hours ago
So, no special reverential appellative in the "communist" form of the Kim Ir Sen name then! As my childhood was lived under the "Golden" era of Ceausescu for whom Kim Ir Sen was a master to emulate, I was expecting something like the Japanese "san" or "sensei" - look here and here two youtube versions of the same example of exotic propaganda.
– cipricus
2 hours ago
add a comment |
1
was born Yuri Irsenovich- you mean in Russian :)
– cipricus
3 hours ago
1
He was born on Soviet soil (despite the official North Korean mythology that he was born on Paektu Mountain in Korea). And so his Soviet birth record would probably have been in Russian. Time magazine: "According to Soviet records, Kim was born there as Yury Irsenovich Kim, the son of a rank and file officer of the Red Army, Kim Il-Sung".
– Kenny LJ
2 hours ago
So, no special reverential appellative in the "communist" form of the Kim Ir Sen name then! As my childhood was lived under the "Golden" era of Ceausescu for whom Kim Ir Sen was a master to emulate, I was expecting something like the Japanese "san" or "sensei" - look here and here two youtube versions of the same example of exotic propaganda.
– cipricus
2 hours ago
1
1
was born Yuri Irsenovich - you mean in Russian :)– cipricus
3 hours ago
was born Yuri Irsenovich - you mean in Russian :)– cipricus
3 hours ago
1
1
He was born on Soviet soil (despite the official North Korean mythology that he was born on Paektu Mountain in Korea). And so his Soviet birth record would probably have been in Russian. Time magazine: "According to Soviet records, Kim was born there as Yury Irsenovich Kim, the son of a rank and file officer of the Red Army, Kim Il-Sung".
– Kenny LJ
2 hours ago
He was born on Soviet soil (despite the official North Korean mythology that he was born on Paektu Mountain in Korea). And so his Soviet birth record would probably have been in Russian. Time magazine: "According to Soviet records, Kim was born there as Yury Irsenovich Kim, the son of a rank and file officer of the Red Army, Kim Il-Sung".
– Kenny LJ
2 hours ago
So, no special reverential appellative in the "communist" form of the Kim Ir Sen name then! As my childhood was lived under the "Golden" era of Ceausescu for whom Kim Ir Sen was a master to emulate, I was expecting something like the Japanese "san" or "sensei" - look here and here two youtube versions of the same example of exotic propaganda.
– cipricus
2 hours ago
So, no special reverential appellative in the "communist" form of the Kim Ir Sen name then! As my childhood was lived under the "Golden" era of Ceausescu for whom Kim Ir Sen was a master to emulate, I was expecting something like the Japanese "san" or "sensei" - look here and here two youtube versions of the same example of exotic propaganda.
– cipricus
2 hours ago
add a comment |
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its spelled different but still pronounced the same way. source: a polish friend.
– ed.hank
3 hours ago
@ed.hank - I speak Romanian, English, French, Italian, have notions of Bulgarian and Serbian, I can say that is not true, it does not sound the same in all these languages. What that could mean is that the Korean names can be transcribed in different ways in European languages. But it is transcribed in only two ways, and these two ways are separated as I describe. Why?
– cipricus
3 hours ago
hmm i dont know why he would lie to me about something so silly. but im not polish so i wouldnt know.
– ed.hank
3 hours ago
@ed.hank - it is not a lie, sorry. I have updated comment to clarify what I mean. But what does your friend mean: it sounds the same in Polish? Why he being Polish is even significant here?
– cipricus
3 hours ago
im curious as to the answer too. his being polish is significant because a pole would likely know more about communist bloc slavic languages much more than i would.
– ed.hank
3 hours ago