Why do E♯ and F♮ not sound the same (according to Wikipedia)?












16














I was just reading the Wikipedia page on the note F (as I do every evening) and was confused by this part where it says that even though F♮ and E♯ are enharmonic they “do not sound the same”:




E♯ is a common enharmonic equivalent of F, but is not regarded as the same note. E♯ is commonly found before F♯ in the same measure in pieces where F♯ is in the key signature, in order to represent a diatonic, rather than a chromatic semitone; writing an F♮ with a following F♯ is regarded as a chromatic alteration of one scale degree (E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way).




What does the author of this sentence mean? Do they not by definition sound the same?










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    16














    I was just reading the Wikipedia page on the note F (as I do every evening) and was confused by this part where it says that even though F♮ and E♯ are enharmonic they “do not sound the same”:




    E♯ is a common enharmonic equivalent of F, but is not regarded as the same note. E♯ is commonly found before F♯ in the same measure in pieces where F♯ is in the key signature, in order to represent a diatonic, rather than a chromatic semitone; writing an F♮ with a following F♯ is regarded as a chromatic alteration of one scale degree (E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way).




    What does the author of this sentence mean? Do they not by definition sound the same?










    share|improve this question









    New contributor




    Aran G is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      16












      16








      16


      4





      I was just reading the Wikipedia page on the note F (as I do every evening) and was confused by this part where it says that even though F♮ and E♯ are enharmonic they “do not sound the same”:




      E♯ is a common enharmonic equivalent of F, but is not regarded as the same note. E♯ is commonly found before F♯ in the same measure in pieces where F♯ is in the key signature, in order to represent a diatonic, rather than a chromatic semitone; writing an F♮ with a following F♯ is regarded as a chromatic alteration of one scale degree (E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way).




      What does the author of this sentence mean? Do they not by definition sound the same?










      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      Aran G is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      I was just reading the Wikipedia page on the note F (as I do every evening) and was confused by this part where it says that even though F♮ and E♯ are enharmonic they “do not sound the same”:




      E♯ is a common enharmonic equivalent of F, but is not regarded as the same note. E♯ is commonly found before F♯ in the same measure in pieces where F♯ is in the key signature, in order to represent a diatonic, rather than a chromatic semitone; writing an F♮ with a following F♯ is regarded as a chromatic alteration of one scale degree (E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way).




      What does the author of this sentence mean? Do they not by definition sound the same?







      notation alternative-tunings intonation enharmonics






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      edited 32 mins ago









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          27














          The thing is that the "some tunings that define the notes in that way" in the Wikipedia quote include the most common tuning today, 12-tone equal temperament (12-TET). So, E# and F natural do usually sound the same.



          ...But not always. Change the tuning system and you can easily have an E# and an F natural that sound slightly different. Just intonation will likely do it, since its perfect fifths are slightly larger than 12-TET's. (Just intonation is a mess the more of the chromatic scale you want to tune with it.)





          share

















          • 1




            So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
            – Aran G
            yesterday






          • 1




            @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
            – Dekkadeci
            yesterday






          • 6




            If you have a system that defines E# and F as different frequencies, then that is not a 12-tone system. In any 12-tone system, E# and F are the same pitch class. What can happen is that you can change your tuning system on the fly if the instrument allows tuning adjustments. But "E# and F do not sound the same" is misleading, if not outright incorrect.
            – MattPutnam
            yesterday










          • @MattPutnam - in just tuning, for example, there are 12 notes, I think, so isn't that a 12-tone system? 12tet is different, as it's a compromise, and there E#=F every time.
            – Tim
            20 hours ago






          • 2




            @Dekkadeci - just intonation isn't mictotonal. It merely uses all the notes with slightly different tunings. Microtonal splits notes we are used to into more parts. I guess you may mean 'microtonal' to encompass say, an unfretted instrument that can make E# in one key slightly different from F in another?
            – Tim
            20 hours ago



















          29














          I think this particular phrasing is rather confusing, as it is trying to talk about two concepts at the same time: enharmonic equivalence, and intonation.



          The concept of intonation (and temperament, which relates to systems of intonation) deals with the fact that even given a certain reference pitch (such as A4=440), there is no one absolutely correct frequency for the other notes to be sounded at. The exact frequencies of notes might be selected to make a certain key sound harmonious, or to be a good compromise that allows a range of keys to sound good (such as 12-tone equal temperament).



          On instruments that allow the intonation to be varied by the player (such as fretless stringed instruments), the very same note - even with the same name - might be sounded at a slightly different pitch to make it sound better in a certain chord or melodic phrase. So even two notes notated as E4 might not be at the same pitch; following the logic in the quote from Wikipedia, one could go so far as to say "E and E do not sound the same".



          So when the article says "E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way", the fact that the note might be called both 'E♯' and 'F♮' is a little bit of a red herring; a note's intonation might vary regardless of variations in how it is named. Nevertheless, there might be some contexts in which the note notated 'F♮' tends towards one pitch, and 'E#' tends towards another.






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            4














            Some tunings are designed so that, whenever possible, two notes which are separated by a perfect fifth will have a precise 3:2 frequency ratio.



            If that 3:2 relationship holds between A#->E#, then D#->A#, G#->D#, C#->G#, F#->C#, and B->F#, that would suggest that the frequency ratio between B and the E# above it would be 729:512 (about 1.42).



            On the other hand, if that 3:2 relationship holds between F and C, C and G, G and D, D and A, A and E, and E and B, then the frequency relationship between the B and the F above it would be 1024:729 (about 1.40).



            It would be possible for all the 3:2 relationships to hold if E# and F were recognized as different notes with slightly different pitches, but if E# and F are the same pitch then at least one of the perfect-fifths relationships much involve something other than a perfect 3:2 frequency ratio.






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              0














              Totally disagree. This paragraph is not about whether the two notes sound the same melodically, but whether they sound the same harmonically. Depending on key and counterpoint there are times when it is clearer to label a note Fnatural instead of Esharp. This also leads to double flats, double sharps, etc. The end result is purely academic, but makes compositional intent clearer to people who are well versed on the academics. The big hint here are the terms diatonic, chromatic, and key signature which have little or no meaning in atonal music.






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              • 1




                I think you missed the term "chromatic semitone" in the quote, along with the implied "diatonic semitone". According to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitone at the time of this comment, the two semitone types may be of different sizes.
                – Dekkadeci
                15 hours ago










              • Not at all. In fact it is key to my argument. Every key has a single diatonic note of every letter A-G. You can’t have Fnatural and Fsharp both as diatonic notes in the same key.
                – Garrett Berneche
                14 hours ago










              • Not at all. In fact it is key to my argument. Every key has a single diatonic note of every letter A-G. You can’t have Fnatural and Fsharp both as diatonic notes in the same key. So it even though we typically think of Esharp as Fnatural (an artifact of basing our musical language around the the key of C) it is not always the correct way to name it. They key of Fsharp has an Esharp as it’s 7th degree, not F.
                – Garrett Berneche
                14 hours ago










              • It is correct to say that on an instrument perfectly tuned to the key of Fsharp compared to a instrument that is perfectly tuned to the key of Fnatural the (for the sake of argument we will assume a keyboard instrument) the F key would not produce the same pitch on both instruments, but you would not use the term semitone to describe the difference.
                – Garrett Berneche
                12 hours ago










              • If the author did indeed mean to speak of microtonal differences then they changed definitions and subjects in the middle of a paragraph. Bad form! I have to assume, based on syntax, they did not mean to do any such thing.
                – Garrett Berneche
                12 hours ago











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              4 Answers
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              4 Answers
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              27














              The thing is that the "some tunings that define the notes in that way" in the Wikipedia quote include the most common tuning today, 12-tone equal temperament (12-TET). So, E# and F natural do usually sound the same.



              ...But not always. Change the tuning system and you can easily have an E# and an F natural that sound slightly different. Just intonation will likely do it, since its perfect fifths are slightly larger than 12-TET's. (Just intonation is a mess the more of the chromatic scale you want to tune with it.)





              share

















              • 1




                So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
                – Aran G
                yesterday






              • 1




                @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
                – Dekkadeci
                yesterday






              • 6




                If you have a system that defines E# and F as different frequencies, then that is not a 12-tone system. In any 12-tone system, E# and F are the same pitch class. What can happen is that you can change your tuning system on the fly if the instrument allows tuning adjustments. But "E# and F do not sound the same" is misleading, if not outright incorrect.
                – MattPutnam
                yesterday










              • @MattPutnam - in just tuning, for example, there are 12 notes, I think, so isn't that a 12-tone system? 12tet is different, as it's a compromise, and there E#=F every time.
                – Tim
                20 hours ago






              • 2




                @Dekkadeci - just intonation isn't mictotonal. It merely uses all the notes with slightly different tunings. Microtonal splits notes we are used to into more parts. I guess you may mean 'microtonal' to encompass say, an unfretted instrument that can make E# in one key slightly different from F in another?
                – Tim
                20 hours ago
















              27














              The thing is that the "some tunings that define the notes in that way" in the Wikipedia quote include the most common tuning today, 12-tone equal temperament (12-TET). So, E# and F natural do usually sound the same.



              ...But not always. Change the tuning system and you can easily have an E# and an F natural that sound slightly different. Just intonation will likely do it, since its perfect fifths are slightly larger than 12-TET's. (Just intonation is a mess the more of the chromatic scale you want to tune with it.)





              share

















              • 1




                So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
                – Aran G
                yesterday






              • 1




                @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
                – Dekkadeci
                yesterday






              • 6




                If you have a system that defines E# and F as different frequencies, then that is not a 12-tone system. In any 12-tone system, E# and F are the same pitch class. What can happen is that you can change your tuning system on the fly if the instrument allows tuning adjustments. But "E# and F do not sound the same" is misleading, if not outright incorrect.
                – MattPutnam
                yesterday










              • @MattPutnam - in just tuning, for example, there are 12 notes, I think, so isn't that a 12-tone system? 12tet is different, as it's a compromise, and there E#=F every time.
                – Tim
                20 hours ago






              • 2




                @Dekkadeci - just intonation isn't mictotonal. It merely uses all the notes with slightly different tunings. Microtonal splits notes we are used to into more parts. I guess you may mean 'microtonal' to encompass say, an unfretted instrument that can make E# in one key slightly different from F in another?
                – Tim
                20 hours ago














              27












              27








              27






              The thing is that the "some tunings that define the notes in that way" in the Wikipedia quote include the most common tuning today, 12-tone equal temperament (12-TET). So, E# and F natural do usually sound the same.



              ...But not always. Change the tuning system and you can easily have an E# and an F natural that sound slightly different. Just intonation will likely do it, since its perfect fifths are slightly larger than 12-TET's. (Just intonation is a mess the more of the chromatic scale you want to tune with it.)





              share












              The thing is that the "some tunings that define the notes in that way" in the Wikipedia quote include the most common tuning today, 12-tone equal temperament (12-TET). So, E# and F natural do usually sound the same.



              ...But not always. Change the tuning system and you can easily have an E# and an F natural that sound slightly different. Just intonation will likely do it, since its perfect fifths are slightly larger than 12-TET's. (Just intonation is a mess the more of the chromatic scale you want to tune with it.)






              share











              share


              share










              answered yesterday









              Dekkadeci

              4,36621118




              4,36621118








              • 1




                So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
                – Aran G
                yesterday






              • 1




                @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
                – Dekkadeci
                yesterday






              • 6




                If you have a system that defines E# and F as different frequencies, then that is not a 12-tone system. In any 12-tone system, E# and F are the same pitch class. What can happen is that you can change your tuning system on the fly if the instrument allows tuning adjustments. But "E# and F do not sound the same" is misleading, if not outright incorrect.
                – MattPutnam
                yesterday










              • @MattPutnam - in just tuning, for example, there are 12 notes, I think, so isn't that a 12-tone system? 12tet is different, as it's a compromise, and there E#=F every time.
                – Tim
                20 hours ago






              • 2




                @Dekkadeci - just intonation isn't mictotonal. It merely uses all the notes with slightly different tunings. Microtonal splits notes we are used to into more parts. I guess you may mean 'microtonal' to encompass say, an unfretted instrument that can make E# in one key slightly different from F in another?
                – Tim
                20 hours ago














              • 1




                So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
                – Aran G
                yesterday






              • 1




                @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
                – Dekkadeci
                yesterday






              • 6




                If you have a system that defines E# and F as different frequencies, then that is not a 12-tone system. In any 12-tone system, E# and F are the same pitch class. What can happen is that you can change your tuning system on the fly if the instrument allows tuning adjustments. But "E# and F do not sound the same" is misleading, if not outright incorrect.
                – MattPutnam
                yesterday










              • @MattPutnam - in just tuning, for example, there are 12 notes, I think, so isn't that a 12-tone system? 12tet is different, as it's a compromise, and there E#=F every time.
                – Tim
                20 hours ago






              • 2




                @Dekkadeci - just intonation isn't mictotonal. It merely uses all the notes with slightly different tunings. Microtonal splits notes we are used to into more parts. I guess you may mean 'microtonal' to encompass say, an unfretted instrument that can make E# in one key slightly different from F in another?
                – Tim
                20 hours ago








              1




              1




              So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
              – Aran G
              yesterday




              So do you mean that it’s referring to microtonal music when it says some tunings?
              – Aran G
              yesterday




              1




              1




              @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
              – Dekkadeci
              yesterday




              @AranG It's referring to microtonal music, and also the different tunings if they don't count as microtonal.
              – Dekkadeci
              yesterday




              6




              6




              If you have a system that defines E# and F as different frequencies, then that is not a 12-tone system. In any 12-tone system, E# and F are the same pitch class. What can happen is that you can change your tuning system on the fly if the instrument allows tuning adjustments. But "E# and F do not sound the same" is misleading, if not outright incorrect.
              – MattPutnam
              yesterday




              If you have a system that defines E# and F as different frequencies, then that is not a 12-tone system. In any 12-tone system, E# and F are the same pitch class. What can happen is that you can change your tuning system on the fly if the instrument allows tuning adjustments. But "E# and F do not sound the same" is misleading, if not outright incorrect.
              – MattPutnam
              yesterday












              @MattPutnam - in just tuning, for example, there are 12 notes, I think, so isn't that a 12-tone system? 12tet is different, as it's a compromise, and there E#=F every time.
              – Tim
              20 hours ago




              @MattPutnam - in just tuning, for example, there are 12 notes, I think, so isn't that a 12-tone system? 12tet is different, as it's a compromise, and there E#=F every time.
              – Tim
              20 hours ago




              2




              2




              @Dekkadeci - just intonation isn't mictotonal. It merely uses all the notes with slightly different tunings. Microtonal splits notes we are used to into more parts. I guess you may mean 'microtonal' to encompass say, an unfretted instrument that can make E# in one key slightly different from F in another?
              – Tim
              20 hours ago




              @Dekkadeci - just intonation isn't mictotonal. It merely uses all the notes with slightly different tunings. Microtonal splits notes we are used to into more parts. I guess you may mean 'microtonal' to encompass say, an unfretted instrument that can make E# in one key slightly different from F in another?
              – Tim
              20 hours ago











              29














              I think this particular phrasing is rather confusing, as it is trying to talk about two concepts at the same time: enharmonic equivalence, and intonation.



              The concept of intonation (and temperament, which relates to systems of intonation) deals with the fact that even given a certain reference pitch (such as A4=440), there is no one absolutely correct frequency for the other notes to be sounded at. The exact frequencies of notes might be selected to make a certain key sound harmonious, or to be a good compromise that allows a range of keys to sound good (such as 12-tone equal temperament).



              On instruments that allow the intonation to be varied by the player (such as fretless stringed instruments), the very same note - even with the same name - might be sounded at a slightly different pitch to make it sound better in a certain chord or melodic phrase. So even two notes notated as E4 might not be at the same pitch; following the logic in the quote from Wikipedia, one could go so far as to say "E and E do not sound the same".



              So when the article says "E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way", the fact that the note might be called both 'E♯' and 'F♮' is a little bit of a red herring; a note's intonation might vary regardless of variations in how it is named. Nevertheless, there might be some contexts in which the note notated 'F♮' tends towards one pitch, and 'E#' tends towards another.






              share|improve this answer




























                29














                I think this particular phrasing is rather confusing, as it is trying to talk about two concepts at the same time: enharmonic equivalence, and intonation.



                The concept of intonation (and temperament, which relates to systems of intonation) deals with the fact that even given a certain reference pitch (such as A4=440), there is no one absolutely correct frequency for the other notes to be sounded at. The exact frequencies of notes might be selected to make a certain key sound harmonious, or to be a good compromise that allows a range of keys to sound good (such as 12-tone equal temperament).



                On instruments that allow the intonation to be varied by the player (such as fretless stringed instruments), the very same note - even with the same name - might be sounded at a slightly different pitch to make it sound better in a certain chord or melodic phrase. So even two notes notated as E4 might not be at the same pitch; following the logic in the quote from Wikipedia, one could go so far as to say "E and E do not sound the same".



                So when the article says "E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way", the fact that the note might be called both 'E♯' and 'F♮' is a little bit of a red herring; a note's intonation might vary regardless of variations in how it is named. Nevertheless, there might be some contexts in which the note notated 'F♮' tends towards one pitch, and 'E#' tends towards another.






                share|improve this answer


























                  29












                  29








                  29






                  I think this particular phrasing is rather confusing, as it is trying to talk about two concepts at the same time: enharmonic equivalence, and intonation.



                  The concept of intonation (and temperament, which relates to systems of intonation) deals with the fact that even given a certain reference pitch (such as A4=440), there is no one absolutely correct frequency for the other notes to be sounded at. The exact frequencies of notes might be selected to make a certain key sound harmonious, or to be a good compromise that allows a range of keys to sound good (such as 12-tone equal temperament).



                  On instruments that allow the intonation to be varied by the player (such as fretless stringed instruments), the very same note - even with the same name - might be sounded at a slightly different pitch to make it sound better in a certain chord or melodic phrase. So even two notes notated as E4 might not be at the same pitch; following the logic in the quote from Wikipedia, one could go so far as to say "E and E do not sound the same".



                  So when the article says "E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way", the fact that the note might be called both 'E♯' and 'F♮' is a little bit of a red herring; a note's intonation might vary regardless of variations in how it is named. Nevertheless, there might be some contexts in which the note notated 'F♮' tends towards one pitch, and 'E#' tends towards another.






                  share|improve this answer














                  I think this particular phrasing is rather confusing, as it is trying to talk about two concepts at the same time: enharmonic equivalence, and intonation.



                  The concept of intonation (and temperament, which relates to systems of intonation) deals with the fact that even given a certain reference pitch (such as A4=440), there is no one absolutely correct frequency for the other notes to be sounded at. The exact frequencies of notes might be selected to make a certain key sound harmonious, or to be a good compromise that allows a range of keys to sound good (such as 12-tone equal temperament).



                  On instruments that allow the intonation to be varied by the player (such as fretless stringed instruments), the very same note - even with the same name - might be sounded at a slightly different pitch to make it sound better in a certain chord or melodic phrase. So even two notes notated as E4 might not be at the same pitch; following the logic in the quote from Wikipedia, one could go so far as to say "E and E do not sound the same".



                  So when the article says "E♯ and F♮ do not sound the same, except in some tunings that define the notes in that way", the fact that the note might be called both 'E♯' and 'F♮' is a little bit of a red herring; a note's intonation might vary regardless of variations in how it is named. Nevertheless, there might be some contexts in which the note notated 'F♮' tends towards one pitch, and 'E#' tends towards another.







                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited yesterday

























                  answered yesterday









                  topo morto

                  23k24099




                  23k24099























                      4














                      Some tunings are designed so that, whenever possible, two notes which are separated by a perfect fifth will have a precise 3:2 frequency ratio.



                      If that 3:2 relationship holds between A#->E#, then D#->A#, G#->D#, C#->G#, F#->C#, and B->F#, that would suggest that the frequency ratio between B and the E# above it would be 729:512 (about 1.42).



                      On the other hand, if that 3:2 relationship holds between F and C, C and G, G and D, D and A, A and E, and E and B, then the frequency relationship between the B and the F above it would be 1024:729 (about 1.40).



                      It would be possible for all the 3:2 relationships to hold if E# and F were recognized as different notes with slightly different pitches, but if E# and F are the same pitch then at least one of the perfect-fifths relationships much involve something other than a perfect 3:2 frequency ratio.






                      share|improve this answer




























                        4














                        Some tunings are designed so that, whenever possible, two notes which are separated by a perfect fifth will have a precise 3:2 frequency ratio.



                        If that 3:2 relationship holds between A#->E#, then D#->A#, G#->D#, C#->G#, F#->C#, and B->F#, that would suggest that the frequency ratio between B and the E# above it would be 729:512 (about 1.42).



                        On the other hand, if that 3:2 relationship holds between F and C, C and G, G and D, D and A, A and E, and E and B, then the frequency relationship between the B and the F above it would be 1024:729 (about 1.40).



                        It would be possible for all the 3:2 relationships to hold if E# and F were recognized as different notes with slightly different pitches, but if E# and F are the same pitch then at least one of the perfect-fifths relationships much involve something other than a perfect 3:2 frequency ratio.






                        share|improve this answer


























                          4












                          4








                          4






                          Some tunings are designed so that, whenever possible, two notes which are separated by a perfect fifth will have a precise 3:2 frequency ratio.



                          If that 3:2 relationship holds between A#->E#, then D#->A#, G#->D#, C#->G#, F#->C#, and B->F#, that would suggest that the frequency ratio between B and the E# above it would be 729:512 (about 1.42).



                          On the other hand, if that 3:2 relationship holds between F and C, C and G, G and D, D and A, A and E, and E and B, then the frequency relationship between the B and the F above it would be 1024:729 (about 1.40).



                          It would be possible for all the 3:2 relationships to hold if E# and F were recognized as different notes with slightly different pitches, but if E# and F are the same pitch then at least one of the perfect-fifths relationships much involve something other than a perfect 3:2 frequency ratio.






                          share|improve this answer














                          Some tunings are designed so that, whenever possible, two notes which are separated by a perfect fifth will have a precise 3:2 frequency ratio.



                          If that 3:2 relationship holds between A#->E#, then D#->A#, G#->D#, C#->G#, F#->C#, and B->F#, that would suggest that the frequency ratio between B and the E# above it would be 729:512 (about 1.42).



                          On the other hand, if that 3:2 relationship holds between F and C, C and G, G and D, D and A, A and E, and E and B, then the frequency relationship between the B and the F above it would be 1024:729 (about 1.40).



                          It would be possible for all the 3:2 relationships to hold if E# and F were recognized as different notes with slightly different pitches, but if E# and F are the same pitch then at least one of the perfect-fifths relationships much involve something other than a perfect 3:2 frequency ratio.







                          share|improve this answer














                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer








                          edited 9 hours ago









                          guntbert

                          1214




                          1214










                          answered 9 hours ago









                          supercat

                          2,320915




                          2,320915























                              0














                              Totally disagree. This paragraph is not about whether the two notes sound the same melodically, but whether they sound the same harmonically. Depending on key and counterpoint there are times when it is clearer to label a note Fnatural instead of Esharp. This also leads to double flats, double sharps, etc. The end result is purely academic, but makes compositional intent clearer to people who are well versed on the academics. The big hint here are the terms diatonic, chromatic, and key signature which have little or no meaning in atonal music.






                              share|improve this answer








                              New contributor




                              Garrett Berneche is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                              Check out our Code of Conduct.














                              • 1




                                I think you missed the term "chromatic semitone" in the quote, along with the implied "diatonic semitone". According to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitone at the time of this comment, the two semitone types may be of different sizes.
                                – Dekkadeci
                                15 hours ago










                              • Not at all. In fact it is key to my argument. Every key has a single diatonic note of every letter A-G. You can’t have Fnatural and Fsharp both as diatonic notes in the same key.
                                – Garrett Berneche
                                14 hours ago










                              • Not at all. In fact it is key to my argument. Every key has a single diatonic note of every letter A-G. You can’t have Fnatural and Fsharp both as diatonic notes in the same key. So it even though we typically think of Esharp as Fnatural (an artifact of basing our musical language around the the key of C) it is not always the correct way to name it. They key of Fsharp has an Esharp as it’s 7th degree, not F.
                                – Garrett Berneche
                                14 hours ago










                              • It is correct to say that on an instrument perfectly tuned to the key of Fsharp compared to a instrument that is perfectly tuned to the key of Fnatural the (for the sake of argument we will assume a keyboard instrument) the F key would not produce the same pitch on both instruments, but you would not use the term semitone to describe the difference.
                                – Garrett Berneche
                                12 hours ago










                              • If the author did indeed mean to speak of microtonal differences then they changed definitions and subjects in the middle of a paragraph. Bad form! I have to assume, based on syntax, they did not mean to do any such thing.
                                – Garrett Berneche
                                12 hours ago
















                              0














                              Totally disagree. This paragraph is not about whether the two notes sound the same melodically, but whether they sound the same harmonically. Depending on key and counterpoint there are times when it is clearer to label a note Fnatural instead of Esharp. This also leads to double flats, double sharps, etc. The end result is purely academic, but makes compositional intent clearer to people who are well versed on the academics. The big hint here are the terms diatonic, chromatic, and key signature which have little or no meaning in atonal music.






                              share|improve this answer








                              New contributor




                              Garrett Berneche is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                              Check out our Code of Conduct.














                              • 1




                                I think you missed the term "chromatic semitone" in the quote, along with the implied "diatonic semitone". According to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitone at the time of this comment, the two semitone types may be of different sizes.
                                – Dekkadeci
                                15 hours ago










                              • Not at all. In fact it is key to my argument. Every key has a single diatonic note of every letter A-G. You can’t have Fnatural and Fsharp both as diatonic notes in the same key.
                                – Garrett Berneche
                                14 hours ago










                              • Not at all. In fact it is key to my argument. Every key has a single diatonic note of every letter A-G. You can’t have Fnatural and Fsharp both as diatonic notes in the same key. So it even though we typically think of Esharp as Fnatural (an artifact of basing our musical language around the the key of C) it is not always the correct way to name it. They key of Fsharp has an Esharp as it’s 7th degree, not F.
                                – Garrett Berneche
                                14 hours ago










                              • It is correct to say that on an instrument perfectly tuned to the key of Fsharp compared to a instrument that is perfectly tuned to the key of Fnatural the (for the sake of argument we will assume a keyboard instrument) the F key would not produce the same pitch on both instruments, but you would not use the term semitone to describe the difference.
                                – Garrett Berneche
                                12 hours ago










                              • If the author did indeed mean to speak of microtonal differences then they changed definitions and subjects in the middle of a paragraph. Bad form! I have to assume, based on syntax, they did not mean to do any such thing.
                                – Garrett Berneche
                                12 hours ago














                              0












                              0








                              0






                              Totally disagree. This paragraph is not about whether the two notes sound the same melodically, but whether they sound the same harmonically. Depending on key and counterpoint there are times when it is clearer to label a note Fnatural instead of Esharp. This also leads to double flats, double sharps, etc. The end result is purely academic, but makes compositional intent clearer to people who are well versed on the academics. The big hint here are the terms diatonic, chromatic, and key signature which have little or no meaning in atonal music.






                              share|improve this answer








                              New contributor




                              Garrett Berneche is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                              Check out our Code of Conduct.









                              Totally disagree. This paragraph is not about whether the two notes sound the same melodically, but whether they sound the same harmonically. Depending on key and counterpoint there are times when it is clearer to label a note Fnatural instead of Esharp. This also leads to double flats, double sharps, etc. The end result is purely academic, but makes compositional intent clearer to people who are well versed on the academics. The big hint here are the terms diatonic, chromatic, and key signature which have little or no meaning in atonal music.







                              share|improve this answer








                              New contributor




                              Garrett Berneche is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                              Check out our Code of Conduct.









                              share|improve this answer



                              share|improve this answer






                              New contributor




                              Garrett Berneche is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                              Check out our Code of Conduct.









                              answered 15 hours ago









                              Garrett Berneche

                              1




                              1




                              New contributor




                              Garrett Berneche is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                              Check out our Code of Conduct.





                              New contributor





                              Garrett Berneche is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                              Check out our Code of Conduct.






                              Garrett Berneche is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                              Check out our Code of Conduct.








                              • 1




                                I think you missed the term "chromatic semitone" in the quote, along with the implied "diatonic semitone". According to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitone at the time of this comment, the two semitone types may be of different sizes.
                                – Dekkadeci
                                15 hours ago










                              • Not at all. In fact it is key to my argument. Every key has a single diatonic note of every letter A-G. You can’t have Fnatural and Fsharp both as diatonic notes in the same key.
                                – Garrett Berneche
                                14 hours ago










                              • Not at all. In fact it is key to my argument. Every key has a single diatonic note of every letter A-G. You can’t have Fnatural and Fsharp both as diatonic notes in the same key. So it even though we typically think of Esharp as Fnatural (an artifact of basing our musical language around the the key of C) it is not always the correct way to name it. They key of Fsharp has an Esharp as it’s 7th degree, not F.
                                – Garrett Berneche
                                14 hours ago










                              • It is correct to say that on an instrument perfectly tuned to the key of Fsharp compared to a instrument that is perfectly tuned to the key of Fnatural the (for the sake of argument we will assume a keyboard instrument) the F key would not produce the same pitch on both instruments, but you would not use the term semitone to describe the difference.
                                – Garrett Berneche
                                12 hours ago










                              • If the author did indeed mean to speak of microtonal differences then they changed definitions and subjects in the middle of a paragraph. Bad form! I have to assume, based on syntax, they did not mean to do any such thing.
                                – Garrett Berneche
                                12 hours ago














                              • 1




                                I think you missed the term "chromatic semitone" in the quote, along with the implied "diatonic semitone". According to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitone at the time of this comment, the two semitone types may be of different sizes.
                                – Dekkadeci
                                15 hours ago










                              • Not at all. In fact it is key to my argument. Every key has a single diatonic note of every letter A-G. You can’t have Fnatural and Fsharp both as diatonic notes in the same key.
                                – Garrett Berneche
                                14 hours ago










                              • Not at all. In fact it is key to my argument. Every key has a single diatonic note of every letter A-G. You can’t have Fnatural and Fsharp both as diatonic notes in the same key. So it even though we typically think of Esharp as Fnatural (an artifact of basing our musical language around the the key of C) it is not always the correct way to name it. They key of Fsharp has an Esharp as it’s 7th degree, not F.
                                – Garrett Berneche
                                14 hours ago










                              • It is correct to say that on an instrument perfectly tuned to the key of Fsharp compared to a instrument that is perfectly tuned to the key of Fnatural the (for the sake of argument we will assume a keyboard instrument) the F key would not produce the same pitch on both instruments, but you would not use the term semitone to describe the difference.
                                – Garrett Berneche
                                12 hours ago










                              • If the author did indeed mean to speak of microtonal differences then they changed definitions and subjects in the middle of a paragraph. Bad form! I have to assume, based on syntax, they did not mean to do any such thing.
                                – Garrett Berneche
                                12 hours ago








                              1




                              1




                              I think you missed the term "chromatic semitone" in the quote, along with the implied "diatonic semitone". According to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitone at the time of this comment, the two semitone types may be of different sizes.
                              – Dekkadeci
                              15 hours ago




                              I think you missed the term "chromatic semitone" in the quote, along with the implied "diatonic semitone". According to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitone at the time of this comment, the two semitone types may be of different sizes.
                              – Dekkadeci
                              15 hours ago












                              Not at all. In fact it is key to my argument. Every key has a single diatonic note of every letter A-G. You can’t have Fnatural and Fsharp both as diatonic notes in the same key.
                              – Garrett Berneche
                              14 hours ago




                              Not at all. In fact it is key to my argument. Every key has a single diatonic note of every letter A-G. You can’t have Fnatural and Fsharp both as diatonic notes in the same key.
                              – Garrett Berneche
                              14 hours ago












                              Not at all. In fact it is key to my argument. Every key has a single diatonic note of every letter A-G. You can’t have Fnatural and Fsharp both as diatonic notes in the same key. So it even though we typically think of Esharp as Fnatural (an artifact of basing our musical language around the the key of C) it is not always the correct way to name it. They key of Fsharp has an Esharp as it’s 7th degree, not F.
                              – Garrett Berneche
                              14 hours ago




                              Not at all. In fact it is key to my argument. Every key has a single diatonic note of every letter A-G. You can’t have Fnatural and Fsharp both as diatonic notes in the same key. So it even though we typically think of Esharp as Fnatural (an artifact of basing our musical language around the the key of C) it is not always the correct way to name it. They key of Fsharp has an Esharp as it’s 7th degree, not F.
                              – Garrett Berneche
                              14 hours ago












                              It is correct to say that on an instrument perfectly tuned to the key of Fsharp compared to a instrument that is perfectly tuned to the key of Fnatural the (for the sake of argument we will assume a keyboard instrument) the F key would not produce the same pitch on both instruments, but you would not use the term semitone to describe the difference.
                              – Garrett Berneche
                              12 hours ago




                              It is correct to say that on an instrument perfectly tuned to the key of Fsharp compared to a instrument that is perfectly tuned to the key of Fnatural the (for the sake of argument we will assume a keyboard instrument) the F key would not produce the same pitch on both instruments, but you would not use the term semitone to describe the difference.
                              – Garrett Berneche
                              12 hours ago












                              If the author did indeed mean to speak of microtonal differences then they changed definitions and subjects in the middle of a paragraph. Bad form! I have to assume, based on syntax, they did not mean to do any such thing.
                              – Garrett Berneche
                              12 hours ago




                              If the author did indeed mean to speak of microtonal differences then they changed definitions and subjects in the middle of a paragraph. Bad form! I have to assume, based on syntax, they did not mean to do any such thing.
                              – Garrett Berneche
                              12 hours ago










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