Can an animal have qualia without self awareness?












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Can an animal have qualia without self awareness? I understand that many animals are said to have qualia but not self awareness (perhaps not the great apes).



In particular, I'm having a hard time thinking of how I could be acquainted with a quale, like the taste of mint or a patch of red, without having self awareness -- and so what the latter is meant to be in addition to the former. I do e.g. recognize my face in the mirror, but am not always doing so or thinking coherently about myself, yet am presumably always self aware.



What is self awareness except my embodiment? Don't I need to be embodied for me to have the experience of qualia? Why not generalize that from me to animal minds?










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    2















    Can an animal have qualia without self awareness? I understand that many animals are said to have qualia but not self awareness (perhaps not the great apes).



    In particular, I'm having a hard time thinking of how I could be acquainted with a quale, like the taste of mint or a patch of red, without having self awareness -- and so what the latter is meant to be in addition to the former. I do e.g. recognize my face in the mirror, but am not always doing so or thinking coherently about myself, yet am presumably always self aware.



    What is self awareness except my embodiment? Don't I need to be embodied for me to have the experience of qualia? Why not generalize that from me to animal minds?










    share|improve this question



























      2












      2








      2








      Can an animal have qualia without self awareness? I understand that many animals are said to have qualia but not self awareness (perhaps not the great apes).



      In particular, I'm having a hard time thinking of how I could be acquainted with a quale, like the taste of mint or a patch of red, without having self awareness -- and so what the latter is meant to be in addition to the former. I do e.g. recognize my face in the mirror, but am not always doing so or thinking coherently about myself, yet am presumably always self aware.



      What is self awareness except my embodiment? Don't I need to be embodied for me to have the experience of qualia? Why not generalize that from me to animal minds?










      share|improve this question
















      Can an animal have qualia without self awareness? I understand that many animals are said to have qualia but not self awareness (perhaps not the great apes).



      In particular, I'm having a hard time thinking of how I could be acquainted with a quale, like the taste of mint or a patch of red, without having self awareness -- and so what the latter is meant to be in addition to the former. I do e.g. recognize my face in the mirror, but am not always doing so or thinking coherently about myself, yet am presumably always self aware.



      What is self awareness except my embodiment? Don't I need to be embodied for me to have the experience of qualia? Why not generalize that from me to animal minds?







      consciousness phenomenology qualia animals awareness






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      share|improve this question













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      edited 4 hours ago







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          You don't distinguish types of self-perception. What you seem to talking about is passing the mirror test, a degree of mental sophistication that allows a being to picture itself in the world clearly enough to recognise another being from a reflection. It's likely this involves brain bicamerality, a cortex that can suppress instinctive 'other' responses in terms of higher order information, and specialised 'mirror' neurons. These seem to be more abundant in monkeys that raise their young collectively, than great apes that don't.



          Anyway. When we look at the neural connectome of nematode c. elegans, with 302 neurons total, we find a specific neuron tasked with distinguishing between it's own body and other things. The analogy is with human proprioception. More widely, the work-space model of awareness sees this as one of the inputs, given various levels of prioritising by neural networks, to enter into the mental models of self and world which form the basis for action.



          The only good model I know of for qualia is that of strange loops. In this view tangled hierarchies are key to the emergence of minds. True conscious awareness involves having a complex model of the self, as a component in the tangled hierarchy, that is not just self-reference but self-reflection, theory of mind as manifested in the stages of human development, with the stages of impulse-controlling neocortex development.



          I have never encountered any other midel of qualia that is coherent, and always seen it as reducible, though in a sense unique in relation to an individuals worldline self-memories in the hierarchy, in this way.






          share|improve this answer



















          • 1





            read your answer, and liked it (upvoted) but can't tell if you agree. thought you did, but then the tone seemed off for that?

            – confused
            1 hour ago






          • 1





            Qualia is the work-space, so even c elegans have it - even single-neuron and single celled creatures in some sense have it imho. Notably, typical configurations even of complex computers, do not

            – CriglCragl
            30 mins ago













          • you used the word "true conscious awareness" and i'd like to know to know what that means if i am to accept the answer... do amoebas have an awareness of time, is that what the last paragraph meant and its reference to memory?

            – confused
            18 mins ago













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          1 Answer
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          active

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          You don't distinguish types of self-perception. What you seem to talking about is passing the mirror test, a degree of mental sophistication that allows a being to picture itself in the world clearly enough to recognise another being from a reflection. It's likely this involves brain bicamerality, a cortex that can suppress instinctive 'other' responses in terms of higher order information, and specialised 'mirror' neurons. These seem to be more abundant in monkeys that raise their young collectively, than great apes that don't.



          Anyway. When we look at the neural connectome of nematode c. elegans, with 302 neurons total, we find a specific neuron tasked with distinguishing between it's own body and other things. The analogy is with human proprioception. More widely, the work-space model of awareness sees this as one of the inputs, given various levels of prioritising by neural networks, to enter into the mental models of self and world which form the basis for action.



          The only good model I know of for qualia is that of strange loops. In this view tangled hierarchies are key to the emergence of minds. True conscious awareness involves having a complex model of the self, as a component in the tangled hierarchy, that is not just self-reference but self-reflection, theory of mind as manifested in the stages of human development, with the stages of impulse-controlling neocortex development.



          I have never encountered any other midel of qualia that is coherent, and always seen it as reducible, though in a sense unique in relation to an individuals worldline self-memories in the hierarchy, in this way.






          share|improve this answer



















          • 1





            read your answer, and liked it (upvoted) but can't tell if you agree. thought you did, but then the tone seemed off for that?

            – confused
            1 hour ago






          • 1





            Qualia is the work-space, so even c elegans have it - even single-neuron and single celled creatures in some sense have it imho. Notably, typical configurations even of complex computers, do not

            – CriglCragl
            30 mins ago













          • you used the word "true conscious awareness" and i'd like to know to know what that means if i am to accept the answer... do amoebas have an awareness of time, is that what the last paragraph meant and its reference to memory?

            – confused
            18 mins ago


















          2














          You don't distinguish types of self-perception. What you seem to talking about is passing the mirror test, a degree of mental sophistication that allows a being to picture itself in the world clearly enough to recognise another being from a reflection. It's likely this involves brain bicamerality, a cortex that can suppress instinctive 'other' responses in terms of higher order information, and specialised 'mirror' neurons. These seem to be more abundant in monkeys that raise their young collectively, than great apes that don't.



          Anyway. When we look at the neural connectome of nematode c. elegans, with 302 neurons total, we find a specific neuron tasked with distinguishing between it's own body and other things. The analogy is with human proprioception. More widely, the work-space model of awareness sees this as one of the inputs, given various levels of prioritising by neural networks, to enter into the mental models of self and world which form the basis for action.



          The only good model I know of for qualia is that of strange loops. In this view tangled hierarchies are key to the emergence of minds. True conscious awareness involves having a complex model of the self, as a component in the tangled hierarchy, that is not just self-reference but self-reflection, theory of mind as manifested in the stages of human development, with the stages of impulse-controlling neocortex development.



          I have never encountered any other midel of qualia that is coherent, and always seen it as reducible, though in a sense unique in relation to an individuals worldline self-memories in the hierarchy, in this way.






          share|improve this answer



















          • 1





            read your answer, and liked it (upvoted) but can't tell if you agree. thought you did, but then the tone seemed off for that?

            – confused
            1 hour ago






          • 1





            Qualia is the work-space, so even c elegans have it - even single-neuron and single celled creatures in some sense have it imho. Notably, typical configurations even of complex computers, do not

            – CriglCragl
            30 mins ago













          • you used the word "true conscious awareness" and i'd like to know to know what that means if i am to accept the answer... do amoebas have an awareness of time, is that what the last paragraph meant and its reference to memory?

            – confused
            18 mins ago
















          2












          2








          2







          You don't distinguish types of self-perception. What you seem to talking about is passing the mirror test, a degree of mental sophistication that allows a being to picture itself in the world clearly enough to recognise another being from a reflection. It's likely this involves brain bicamerality, a cortex that can suppress instinctive 'other' responses in terms of higher order information, and specialised 'mirror' neurons. These seem to be more abundant in monkeys that raise their young collectively, than great apes that don't.



          Anyway. When we look at the neural connectome of nematode c. elegans, with 302 neurons total, we find a specific neuron tasked with distinguishing between it's own body and other things. The analogy is with human proprioception. More widely, the work-space model of awareness sees this as one of the inputs, given various levels of prioritising by neural networks, to enter into the mental models of self and world which form the basis for action.



          The only good model I know of for qualia is that of strange loops. In this view tangled hierarchies are key to the emergence of minds. True conscious awareness involves having a complex model of the self, as a component in the tangled hierarchy, that is not just self-reference but self-reflection, theory of mind as manifested in the stages of human development, with the stages of impulse-controlling neocortex development.



          I have never encountered any other midel of qualia that is coherent, and always seen it as reducible, though in a sense unique in relation to an individuals worldline self-memories in the hierarchy, in this way.






          share|improve this answer













          You don't distinguish types of self-perception. What you seem to talking about is passing the mirror test, a degree of mental sophistication that allows a being to picture itself in the world clearly enough to recognise another being from a reflection. It's likely this involves brain bicamerality, a cortex that can suppress instinctive 'other' responses in terms of higher order information, and specialised 'mirror' neurons. These seem to be more abundant in monkeys that raise their young collectively, than great apes that don't.



          Anyway. When we look at the neural connectome of nematode c. elegans, with 302 neurons total, we find a specific neuron tasked with distinguishing between it's own body and other things. The analogy is with human proprioception. More widely, the work-space model of awareness sees this as one of the inputs, given various levels of prioritising by neural networks, to enter into the mental models of self and world which form the basis for action.



          The only good model I know of for qualia is that of strange loops. In this view tangled hierarchies are key to the emergence of minds. True conscious awareness involves having a complex model of the self, as a component in the tangled hierarchy, that is not just self-reference but self-reflection, theory of mind as manifested in the stages of human development, with the stages of impulse-controlling neocortex development.



          I have never encountered any other midel of qualia that is coherent, and always seen it as reducible, though in a sense unique in relation to an individuals worldline self-memories in the hierarchy, in this way.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 1 hour ago









          CriglCraglCriglCragl

          2,6041416




          2,6041416








          • 1





            read your answer, and liked it (upvoted) but can't tell if you agree. thought you did, but then the tone seemed off for that?

            – confused
            1 hour ago






          • 1





            Qualia is the work-space, so even c elegans have it - even single-neuron and single celled creatures in some sense have it imho. Notably, typical configurations even of complex computers, do not

            – CriglCragl
            30 mins ago













          • you used the word "true conscious awareness" and i'd like to know to know what that means if i am to accept the answer... do amoebas have an awareness of time, is that what the last paragraph meant and its reference to memory?

            – confused
            18 mins ago
















          • 1





            read your answer, and liked it (upvoted) but can't tell if you agree. thought you did, but then the tone seemed off for that?

            – confused
            1 hour ago






          • 1





            Qualia is the work-space, so even c elegans have it - even single-neuron and single celled creatures in some sense have it imho. Notably, typical configurations even of complex computers, do not

            – CriglCragl
            30 mins ago













          • you used the word "true conscious awareness" and i'd like to know to know what that means if i am to accept the answer... do amoebas have an awareness of time, is that what the last paragraph meant and its reference to memory?

            – confused
            18 mins ago










          1




          1





          read your answer, and liked it (upvoted) but can't tell if you agree. thought you did, but then the tone seemed off for that?

          – confused
          1 hour ago





          read your answer, and liked it (upvoted) but can't tell if you agree. thought you did, but then the tone seemed off for that?

          – confused
          1 hour ago




          1




          1





          Qualia is the work-space, so even c elegans have it - even single-neuron and single celled creatures in some sense have it imho. Notably, typical configurations even of complex computers, do not

          – CriglCragl
          30 mins ago







          Qualia is the work-space, so even c elegans have it - even single-neuron and single celled creatures in some sense have it imho. Notably, typical configurations even of complex computers, do not

          – CriglCragl
          30 mins ago















          you used the word "true conscious awareness" and i'd like to know to know what that means if i am to accept the answer... do amoebas have an awareness of time, is that what the last paragraph meant and its reference to memory?

          – confused
          18 mins ago







          you used the word "true conscious awareness" and i'd like to know to know what that means if i am to accept the answer... do amoebas have an awareness of time, is that what the last paragraph meant and its reference to memory?

          – confused
          18 mins ago




















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