Proving $(bf xtimes ycdot N) z+(ytimes zcdot N) x+(ztimes x cdot N) y= 0$ when $bf x,y,z$ are coplanar and...

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Prove that if $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z} in mathbb{R}^3$ are coplanar vectors and $mathbf{N}$ is a unit normal vector to the plane then $$(mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y}=mathbf{0}.$$
This is an elementary identity involving cross products which is used in the proof of the Gauss-Bonnet Theorem and whose proof was left as an exercise. I've tried it unsuccessfully. Initially I tried writing $mathbf{N}=frac{mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}}{| mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}|}=frac{mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}}{| mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}|}=frac{mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}}{| mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}|}$ and substituting into the equation to get $| mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}|z +| mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}|mathbf{x}+| mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}|mathbf{y}=mathbf{0}$ but then I realised these terms are only correct up to $pm$ signs. You could write the norms in terms of sines of angles and divide by norms to get unit vectors with coefficients $sintheta,sinpsi,sin(theta+psi)$ (or $2pi -(theta+psi)$ I suppose) but I don't know what to do from there, especially when the terms are only correct up to sign. Any hints how to prove this identity? Perhaps there is a clever trick to it but I can't see it. Edit: Maybe writing $mathbf{z}=lambdamathbf{x}+mumathbf{y}$ will help.
linear-algebra vectors cross-product
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
Prove that if $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z} in mathbb{R}^3$ are coplanar vectors and $mathbf{N}$ is a unit normal vector to the plane then $$(mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y}=mathbf{0}.$$
This is an elementary identity involving cross products which is used in the proof of the Gauss-Bonnet Theorem and whose proof was left as an exercise. I've tried it unsuccessfully. Initially I tried writing $mathbf{N}=frac{mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}}{| mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}|}=frac{mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}}{| mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}|}=frac{mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}}{| mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}|}$ and substituting into the equation to get $| mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}|z +| mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}|mathbf{x}+| mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}|mathbf{y}=mathbf{0}$ but then I realised these terms are only correct up to $pm$ signs. You could write the norms in terms of sines of angles and divide by norms to get unit vectors with coefficients $sintheta,sinpsi,sin(theta+psi)$ (or $2pi -(theta+psi)$ I suppose) but I don't know what to do from there, especially when the terms are only correct up to sign. Any hints how to prove this identity? Perhaps there is a clever trick to it but I can't see it. Edit: Maybe writing $mathbf{z}=lambdamathbf{x}+mumathbf{y}$ will help.
linear-algebra vectors cross-product
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1
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What does $x times y cdot N$ mean? Dot product $(x times y) cdot N$ ?
$endgroup$
– Widawensen
yesterday
4
$begingroup$
@Widawensen Yes, what else could it mean?
$endgroup$
– Marc van Leeuwen
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@MarcvanLeeuwen: that could mean a badly written problem. That happens here sometimes.
$endgroup$
– Taladris
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Prove that if $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z} in mathbb{R}^3$ are coplanar vectors and $mathbf{N}$ is a unit normal vector to the plane then $$(mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y}=mathbf{0}.$$
This is an elementary identity involving cross products which is used in the proof of the Gauss-Bonnet Theorem and whose proof was left as an exercise. I've tried it unsuccessfully. Initially I tried writing $mathbf{N}=frac{mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}}{| mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}|}=frac{mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}}{| mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}|}=frac{mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}}{| mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}|}$ and substituting into the equation to get $| mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}|z +| mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}|mathbf{x}+| mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}|mathbf{y}=mathbf{0}$ but then I realised these terms are only correct up to $pm$ signs. You could write the norms in terms of sines of angles and divide by norms to get unit vectors with coefficients $sintheta,sinpsi,sin(theta+psi)$ (or $2pi -(theta+psi)$ I suppose) but I don't know what to do from there, especially when the terms are only correct up to sign. Any hints how to prove this identity? Perhaps there is a clever trick to it but I can't see it. Edit: Maybe writing $mathbf{z}=lambdamathbf{x}+mumathbf{y}$ will help.
linear-algebra vectors cross-product
$endgroup$
Prove that if $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z} in mathbb{R}^3$ are coplanar vectors and $mathbf{N}$ is a unit normal vector to the plane then $$(mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y}=mathbf{0}.$$
This is an elementary identity involving cross products which is used in the proof of the Gauss-Bonnet Theorem and whose proof was left as an exercise. I've tried it unsuccessfully. Initially I tried writing $mathbf{N}=frac{mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}}{| mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}|}=frac{mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}}{| mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}|}=frac{mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}}{| mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}|}$ and substituting into the equation to get $| mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}|z +| mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}|mathbf{x}+| mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}|mathbf{y}=mathbf{0}$ but then I realised these terms are only correct up to $pm$ signs. You could write the norms in terms of sines of angles and divide by norms to get unit vectors with coefficients $sintheta,sinpsi,sin(theta+psi)$ (or $2pi -(theta+psi)$ I suppose) but I don't know what to do from there, especially when the terms are only correct up to sign. Any hints how to prove this identity? Perhaps there is a clever trick to it but I can't see it. Edit: Maybe writing $mathbf{z}=lambdamathbf{x}+mumathbf{y}$ will help.
linear-algebra vectors cross-product
linear-algebra vectors cross-product
edited 19 hours ago
Asaf Karagila♦
306k33438769
306k33438769
asked yesterday
AlephNullAlephNull
550110
550110
1
$begingroup$
What does $x times y cdot N$ mean? Dot product $(x times y) cdot N$ ?
$endgroup$
– Widawensen
yesterday
4
$begingroup$
@Widawensen Yes, what else could it mean?
$endgroup$
– Marc van Leeuwen
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@MarcvanLeeuwen: that could mean a badly written problem. That happens here sometimes.
$endgroup$
– Taladris
yesterday
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
What does $x times y cdot N$ mean? Dot product $(x times y) cdot N$ ?
$endgroup$
– Widawensen
yesterday
4
$begingroup$
@Widawensen Yes, what else could it mean?
$endgroup$
– Marc van Leeuwen
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@MarcvanLeeuwen: that could mean a badly written problem. That happens here sometimes.
$endgroup$
– Taladris
yesterday
1
1
$begingroup$
What does $x times y cdot N$ mean? Dot product $(x times y) cdot N$ ?
$endgroup$
– Widawensen
yesterday
$begingroup$
What does $x times y cdot N$ mean? Dot product $(x times y) cdot N$ ?
$endgroup$
– Widawensen
yesterday
4
4
$begingroup$
@Widawensen Yes, what else could it mean?
$endgroup$
– Marc van Leeuwen
yesterday
$begingroup$
@Widawensen Yes, what else could it mean?
$endgroup$
– Marc van Leeuwen
yesterday
1
1
$begingroup$
@MarcvanLeeuwen: that could mean a badly written problem. That happens here sometimes.
$endgroup$
– Taladris
yesterday
$begingroup$
@MarcvanLeeuwen: that could mean a badly written problem. That happens here sometimes.
$endgroup$
– Taladris
yesterday
add a comment |
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Here's an observation: If $Q$ is a rotation matrix, then
$$
(Qx) times (Qy) = Q(x times y)
$$
You have to prove that, of course, but it's not too tough. Similarly,
$$
(Qx) cdot (Qy) = x cdot y
$$
and, for a scalar $alpha$, we have
$$
Q (alpha x) = alpha (Q x)
$$
Now suppose that for some vector $v$, we have
$$
(mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y}=mathbf{v}.
$$
Key idea 1: You can apply the rules above to show that for any rotation matrix $Q$, you can apply $Q$ to all the elements on the left to get $Qv$.
Key idea 2: You can choose $Q$ so that it takes $N$ to the vector $(0,0,1)$, and puts $x, y,$ and $z$ into the plane consisting of vectors of the form $(a, b, 0)$. And in that plane, it's easy to see that you get $0$, so $Qv = 0$. Hence $v = 0$, and you're done.
In short: by a change of basis, you can assume that $N$ is the vector $(0,0,1)$ and that the other vectors all lie in the $(a, b, 0)$ plane, and things get easy.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Ah so it is a clever approach with orthogonal matrices. I'm familiar with those identities. But I don't see how $Qv=0$. I can't see how we apply anything other than the third identity $Q(alpha x)=alpha (Qx)$.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
$begingroup$
Oh I see, you're talking about the elements, not the terms. I understand the solution now.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
By the way, there's a general principle at work here, much loved by physicists, but worth remembering even if that's not your domain: "find the right coordinate system for your problem." (The math version is mostly "choose the right basis/generating set/...")
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
yesterday
add a comment |
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If what is required is only to prove the validity of the given identity, there is another approach. Observe that if $x$ and $y$ are linearly dependent, i.e. for some $c$, $x=c y$ or $y=c x$, then the identity holds trivially because $wtimes v =-(vtimes w)$ and $v times v=0$ for all $v,w$. Thus, we may assume $x$ and $y$ are linearly independent and hence $z$ is a linear combination of $x$ and $y$, that is, $z=ax+by$ for some $a,b$. Now, since the given identity is linear in each variable and it holds for both $z=x$ and $z=y$, it is also true for $z=ax+by$. This proves the identity. It can be also noted that $N$ being perpendicular to the plane containing $x,y,z$ plays no role in this proof.
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2
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very nice solution!
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– John Hughes
yesterday
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Indeed, this is very elegant. So my last remark had some significance!
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– AlephNull
yesterday
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Thank you both :-)
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– Song
21 hours ago
add a comment |
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Writing $x=ahat{i}+bhat{j},,y=chat{i}+dhat{j},,z=ehat{i}+fhat{j},,N=Nhat{k}$ reduces the sum to $$N((ad-bc)(ehat{i}+fhat{j})+(cf-de)(ahat{i}+bhat{j})+(be-af)(chat{i}+dhat{j})).$$The $hat{i}$ coefficient is $N(ade-bce+acf-ade+bce-acf)=0$. The $hat{j}$ coefficient can be handled similarly.
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I accepted a different answer but +1 because I appreciate that this finishes off the solution in that answer.
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– AlephNull
yesterday
add a comment |
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Since $bf x, bf y, bf z$ are coplanar, they are linearly dependent. Since the result to be proved is symmetric in $bf x, bf y, bf z$, withouht loss of generality we can write $bf z = lambda bf x + mu bf y$ for some scalars $lambda, mu$.
Now, $$begin{align}
& (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x \
= & (bf y times (lambda bf x + mu bf y) cdot bf N); bf x \
= & (bf y times lambda bf x cdot bf N); bf x \
= & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x)
end{align}$$
and similarly $$begin{align}
& (bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
= & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (mu bf y)
end{align}$$
So $$begin{align}
& (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x +
(bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
= & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x + mu bf y)\
= & -(bf x times bf y cdot bf N);z
end{align} $$
and the result follows.
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If you know a little about the exterior algebra we can see this almost immediately, and in a way that generalizes substantially.
Pick any plane $Pi$ containing ${bf x}, {bf y}, {bf z}$. The map on $Pi$ defined by $$({bf a}, {bf b}, {bf c}) mapsto [({bf a} times {bf b}) cdot {bf N}] {bf c} + [({bf b} times {bf c}) cdot {bf N}] {bf a} + [({bf c} times {bf a}) cdot {bf N}] {bf b}$$
is visibly trilinear and totally skew in its arguments, so it is a (vector-valued) $3$-form on a $2$-dimensional vector space and hence is the zero map.
NB this argument doesn't use any properties of $bf N$.
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By the properties of the triple product ( circluar shift) we can rearrange formula:
$ (mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y} \ =(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{y}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{z}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{x}) mathbf{y} $
All cross product vectors $$v_1=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}),v_2=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}), v_3=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z})$$
lie in the plane of coplanar vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ and they are vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ rotated by $pi/2$ in this plane.
So we can limit themselves to this plane and take any vectors with components $mathbf{x}=[ x_1 x_2]^T,mathbf{y}=[ y_1 y_2]^T,mathbf{z} =[ z_1 z_2]^T$.
Transform them with the rotation matrix $R=begin{bmatrix} 0 & -1 \ 1 & 0 end{bmatrix}$ , calculate appropriate dot products and finally check the formula with these assumed general components.
Namely we need to calculate:
$$(y^TRx)z+(z^TRy)x+(x^TRz)y$$
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6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Here's an observation: If $Q$ is a rotation matrix, then
$$
(Qx) times (Qy) = Q(x times y)
$$
You have to prove that, of course, but it's not too tough. Similarly,
$$
(Qx) cdot (Qy) = x cdot y
$$
and, for a scalar $alpha$, we have
$$
Q (alpha x) = alpha (Q x)
$$
Now suppose that for some vector $v$, we have
$$
(mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y}=mathbf{v}.
$$
Key idea 1: You can apply the rules above to show that for any rotation matrix $Q$, you can apply $Q$ to all the elements on the left to get $Qv$.
Key idea 2: You can choose $Q$ so that it takes $N$ to the vector $(0,0,1)$, and puts $x, y,$ and $z$ into the plane consisting of vectors of the form $(a, b, 0)$. And in that plane, it's easy to see that you get $0$, so $Qv = 0$. Hence $v = 0$, and you're done.
In short: by a change of basis, you can assume that $N$ is the vector $(0,0,1)$ and that the other vectors all lie in the $(a, b, 0)$ plane, and things get easy.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Ah so it is a clever approach with orthogonal matrices. I'm familiar with those identities. But I don't see how $Qv=0$. I can't see how we apply anything other than the third identity $Q(alpha x)=alpha (Qx)$.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
$begingroup$
Oh I see, you're talking about the elements, not the terms. I understand the solution now.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
By the way, there's a general principle at work here, much loved by physicists, but worth remembering even if that's not your domain: "find the right coordinate system for your problem." (The math version is mostly "choose the right basis/generating set/...")
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here's an observation: If $Q$ is a rotation matrix, then
$$
(Qx) times (Qy) = Q(x times y)
$$
You have to prove that, of course, but it's not too tough. Similarly,
$$
(Qx) cdot (Qy) = x cdot y
$$
and, for a scalar $alpha$, we have
$$
Q (alpha x) = alpha (Q x)
$$
Now suppose that for some vector $v$, we have
$$
(mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y}=mathbf{v}.
$$
Key idea 1: You can apply the rules above to show that for any rotation matrix $Q$, you can apply $Q$ to all the elements on the left to get $Qv$.
Key idea 2: You can choose $Q$ so that it takes $N$ to the vector $(0,0,1)$, and puts $x, y,$ and $z$ into the plane consisting of vectors of the form $(a, b, 0)$. And in that plane, it's easy to see that you get $0$, so $Qv = 0$. Hence $v = 0$, and you're done.
In short: by a change of basis, you can assume that $N$ is the vector $(0,0,1)$ and that the other vectors all lie in the $(a, b, 0)$ plane, and things get easy.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Ah so it is a clever approach with orthogonal matrices. I'm familiar with those identities. But I don't see how $Qv=0$. I can't see how we apply anything other than the third identity $Q(alpha x)=alpha (Qx)$.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
$begingroup$
Oh I see, you're talking about the elements, not the terms. I understand the solution now.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
By the way, there's a general principle at work here, much loved by physicists, but worth remembering even if that's not your domain: "find the right coordinate system for your problem." (The math version is mostly "choose the right basis/generating set/...")
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here's an observation: If $Q$ is a rotation matrix, then
$$
(Qx) times (Qy) = Q(x times y)
$$
You have to prove that, of course, but it's not too tough. Similarly,
$$
(Qx) cdot (Qy) = x cdot y
$$
and, for a scalar $alpha$, we have
$$
Q (alpha x) = alpha (Q x)
$$
Now suppose that for some vector $v$, we have
$$
(mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y}=mathbf{v}.
$$
Key idea 1: You can apply the rules above to show that for any rotation matrix $Q$, you can apply $Q$ to all the elements on the left to get $Qv$.
Key idea 2: You can choose $Q$ so that it takes $N$ to the vector $(0,0,1)$, and puts $x, y,$ and $z$ into the plane consisting of vectors of the form $(a, b, 0)$. And in that plane, it's easy to see that you get $0$, so $Qv = 0$. Hence $v = 0$, and you're done.
In short: by a change of basis, you can assume that $N$ is the vector $(0,0,1)$ and that the other vectors all lie in the $(a, b, 0)$ plane, and things get easy.
$endgroup$
Here's an observation: If $Q$ is a rotation matrix, then
$$
(Qx) times (Qy) = Q(x times y)
$$
You have to prove that, of course, but it's not too tough. Similarly,
$$
(Qx) cdot (Qy) = x cdot y
$$
and, for a scalar $alpha$, we have
$$
Q (alpha x) = alpha (Q x)
$$
Now suppose that for some vector $v$, we have
$$
(mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x} cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y}=mathbf{v}.
$$
Key idea 1: You can apply the rules above to show that for any rotation matrix $Q$, you can apply $Q$ to all the elements on the left to get $Qv$.
Key idea 2: You can choose $Q$ so that it takes $N$ to the vector $(0,0,1)$, and puts $x, y,$ and $z$ into the plane consisting of vectors of the form $(a, b, 0)$. And in that plane, it's easy to see that you get $0$, so $Qv = 0$. Hence $v = 0$, and you're done.
In short: by a change of basis, you can assume that $N$ is the vector $(0,0,1)$ and that the other vectors all lie in the $(a, b, 0)$ plane, and things get easy.
answered yesterday
John HughesJohn Hughes
64.8k24191
64.8k24191
$begingroup$
Ah so it is a clever approach with orthogonal matrices. I'm familiar with those identities. But I don't see how $Qv=0$. I can't see how we apply anything other than the third identity $Q(alpha x)=alpha (Qx)$.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
$begingroup$
Oh I see, you're talking about the elements, not the terms. I understand the solution now.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
By the way, there's a general principle at work here, much loved by physicists, but worth remembering even if that's not your domain: "find the right coordinate system for your problem." (The math version is mostly "choose the right basis/generating set/...")
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Ah so it is a clever approach with orthogonal matrices. I'm familiar with those identities. But I don't see how $Qv=0$. I can't see how we apply anything other than the third identity $Q(alpha x)=alpha (Qx)$.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
$begingroup$
Oh I see, you're talking about the elements, not the terms. I understand the solution now.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
By the way, there's a general principle at work here, much loved by physicists, but worth remembering even if that's not your domain: "find the right coordinate system for your problem." (The math version is mostly "choose the right basis/generating set/...")
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
yesterday
$begingroup$
Ah so it is a clever approach with orthogonal matrices. I'm familiar with those identities. But I don't see how $Qv=0$. I can't see how we apply anything other than the third identity $Q(alpha x)=alpha (Qx)$.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
$begingroup$
Ah so it is a clever approach with orthogonal matrices. I'm familiar with those identities. But I don't see how $Qv=0$. I can't see how we apply anything other than the third identity $Q(alpha x)=alpha (Qx)$.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
$begingroup$
Oh I see, you're talking about the elements, not the terms. I understand the solution now.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
$begingroup$
Oh I see, you're talking about the elements, not the terms. I understand the solution now.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
2
2
$begingroup$
By the way, there's a general principle at work here, much loved by physicists, but worth remembering even if that's not your domain: "find the right coordinate system for your problem." (The math version is mostly "choose the right basis/generating set/...")
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
yesterday
$begingroup$
By the way, there's a general principle at work here, much loved by physicists, but worth remembering even if that's not your domain: "find the right coordinate system for your problem." (The math version is mostly "choose the right basis/generating set/...")
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If what is required is only to prove the validity of the given identity, there is another approach. Observe that if $x$ and $y$ are linearly dependent, i.e. for some $c$, $x=c y$ or $y=c x$, then the identity holds trivially because $wtimes v =-(vtimes w)$ and $v times v=0$ for all $v,w$. Thus, we may assume $x$ and $y$ are linearly independent and hence $z$ is a linear combination of $x$ and $y$, that is, $z=ax+by$ for some $a,b$. Now, since the given identity is linear in each variable and it holds for both $z=x$ and $z=y$, it is also true for $z=ax+by$. This proves the identity. It can be also noted that $N$ being perpendicular to the plane containing $x,y,z$ plays no role in this proof.
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
very nice solution!
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
yesterday
$begingroup$
Indeed, this is very elegant. So my last remark had some significance!
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
$begingroup$
Thank you both :-)
$endgroup$
– Song
21 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If what is required is only to prove the validity of the given identity, there is another approach. Observe that if $x$ and $y$ are linearly dependent, i.e. for some $c$, $x=c y$ or $y=c x$, then the identity holds trivially because $wtimes v =-(vtimes w)$ and $v times v=0$ for all $v,w$. Thus, we may assume $x$ and $y$ are linearly independent and hence $z$ is a linear combination of $x$ and $y$, that is, $z=ax+by$ for some $a,b$. Now, since the given identity is linear in each variable and it holds for both $z=x$ and $z=y$, it is also true for $z=ax+by$. This proves the identity. It can be also noted that $N$ being perpendicular to the plane containing $x,y,z$ plays no role in this proof.
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
very nice solution!
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
yesterday
$begingroup$
Indeed, this is very elegant. So my last remark had some significance!
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
$begingroup$
Thank you both :-)
$endgroup$
– Song
21 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If what is required is only to prove the validity of the given identity, there is another approach. Observe that if $x$ and $y$ are linearly dependent, i.e. for some $c$, $x=c y$ or $y=c x$, then the identity holds trivially because $wtimes v =-(vtimes w)$ and $v times v=0$ for all $v,w$. Thus, we may assume $x$ and $y$ are linearly independent and hence $z$ is a linear combination of $x$ and $y$, that is, $z=ax+by$ for some $a,b$. Now, since the given identity is linear in each variable and it holds for both $z=x$ and $z=y$, it is also true for $z=ax+by$. This proves the identity. It can be also noted that $N$ being perpendicular to the plane containing $x,y,z$ plays no role in this proof.
$endgroup$
If what is required is only to prove the validity of the given identity, there is another approach. Observe that if $x$ and $y$ are linearly dependent, i.e. for some $c$, $x=c y$ or $y=c x$, then the identity holds trivially because $wtimes v =-(vtimes w)$ and $v times v=0$ for all $v,w$. Thus, we may assume $x$ and $y$ are linearly independent and hence $z$ is a linear combination of $x$ and $y$, that is, $z=ax+by$ for some $a,b$. Now, since the given identity is linear in each variable and it holds for both $z=x$ and $z=y$, it is also true for $z=ax+by$. This proves the identity. It can be also noted that $N$ being perpendicular to the plane containing $x,y,z$ plays no role in this proof.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday


SongSong
18.5k21550
18.5k21550
2
$begingroup$
very nice solution!
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
yesterday
$begingroup$
Indeed, this is very elegant. So my last remark had some significance!
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
$begingroup$
Thank you both :-)
$endgroup$
– Song
21 hours ago
add a comment |
2
$begingroup$
very nice solution!
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
yesterday
$begingroup$
Indeed, this is very elegant. So my last remark had some significance!
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
$begingroup$
Thank you both :-)
$endgroup$
– Song
21 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
very nice solution!
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
yesterday
$begingroup$
very nice solution!
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
yesterday
$begingroup$
Indeed, this is very elegant. So my last remark had some significance!
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
$begingroup$
Indeed, this is very elegant. So my last remark had some significance!
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
$begingroup$
Thank you both :-)
$endgroup$
– Song
21 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thank you both :-)
$endgroup$
– Song
21 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Writing $x=ahat{i}+bhat{j},,y=chat{i}+dhat{j},,z=ehat{i}+fhat{j},,N=Nhat{k}$ reduces the sum to $$N((ad-bc)(ehat{i}+fhat{j})+(cf-de)(ahat{i}+bhat{j})+(be-af)(chat{i}+dhat{j})).$$The $hat{i}$ coefficient is $N(ade-bce+acf-ade+bce-acf)=0$. The $hat{j}$ coefficient can be handled similarly.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I accepted a different answer but +1 because I appreciate that this finishes off the solution in that answer.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Writing $x=ahat{i}+bhat{j},,y=chat{i}+dhat{j},,z=ehat{i}+fhat{j},,N=Nhat{k}$ reduces the sum to $$N((ad-bc)(ehat{i}+fhat{j})+(cf-de)(ahat{i}+bhat{j})+(be-af)(chat{i}+dhat{j})).$$The $hat{i}$ coefficient is $N(ade-bce+acf-ade+bce-acf)=0$. The $hat{j}$ coefficient can be handled similarly.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I accepted a different answer but +1 because I appreciate that this finishes off the solution in that answer.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Writing $x=ahat{i}+bhat{j},,y=chat{i}+dhat{j},,z=ehat{i}+fhat{j},,N=Nhat{k}$ reduces the sum to $$N((ad-bc)(ehat{i}+fhat{j})+(cf-de)(ahat{i}+bhat{j})+(be-af)(chat{i}+dhat{j})).$$The $hat{i}$ coefficient is $N(ade-bce+acf-ade+bce-acf)=0$. The $hat{j}$ coefficient can be handled similarly.
$endgroup$
Writing $x=ahat{i}+bhat{j},,y=chat{i}+dhat{j},,z=ehat{i}+fhat{j},,N=Nhat{k}$ reduces the sum to $$N((ad-bc)(ehat{i}+fhat{j})+(cf-de)(ahat{i}+bhat{j})+(be-af)(chat{i}+dhat{j})).$$The $hat{i}$ coefficient is $N(ade-bce+acf-ade+bce-acf)=0$. The $hat{j}$ coefficient can be handled similarly.
answered yesterday
J.G.J.G.
31.1k23149
31.1k23149
$begingroup$
I accepted a different answer but +1 because I appreciate that this finishes off the solution in that answer.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I accepted a different answer but +1 because I appreciate that this finishes off the solution in that answer.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
$begingroup$
I accepted a different answer but +1 because I appreciate that this finishes off the solution in that answer.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
$begingroup$
I accepted a different answer but +1 because I appreciate that this finishes off the solution in that answer.
$endgroup$
– AlephNull
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Since $bf x, bf y, bf z$ are coplanar, they are linearly dependent. Since the result to be proved is symmetric in $bf x, bf y, bf z$, withouht loss of generality we can write $bf z = lambda bf x + mu bf y$ for some scalars $lambda, mu$.
Now, $$begin{align}
& (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x \
= & (bf y times (lambda bf x + mu bf y) cdot bf N); bf x \
= & (bf y times lambda bf x cdot bf N); bf x \
= & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x)
end{align}$$
and similarly $$begin{align}
& (bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
= & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (mu bf y)
end{align}$$
So $$begin{align}
& (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x +
(bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
= & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x + mu bf y)\
= & -(bf x times bf y cdot bf N);z
end{align} $$
and the result follows.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Since $bf x, bf y, bf z$ are coplanar, they are linearly dependent. Since the result to be proved is symmetric in $bf x, bf y, bf z$, withouht loss of generality we can write $bf z = lambda bf x + mu bf y$ for some scalars $lambda, mu$.
Now, $$begin{align}
& (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x \
= & (bf y times (lambda bf x + mu bf y) cdot bf N); bf x \
= & (bf y times lambda bf x cdot bf N); bf x \
= & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x)
end{align}$$
and similarly $$begin{align}
& (bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
= & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (mu bf y)
end{align}$$
So $$begin{align}
& (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x +
(bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
= & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x + mu bf y)\
= & -(bf x times bf y cdot bf N);z
end{align} $$
and the result follows.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Since $bf x, bf y, bf z$ are coplanar, they are linearly dependent. Since the result to be proved is symmetric in $bf x, bf y, bf z$, withouht loss of generality we can write $bf z = lambda bf x + mu bf y$ for some scalars $lambda, mu$.
Now, $$begin{align}
& (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x \
= & (bf y times (lambda bf x + mu bf y) cdot bf N); bf x \
= & (bf y times lambda bf x cdot bf N); bf x \
= & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x)
end{align}$$
and similarly $$begin{align}
& (bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
= & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (mu bf y)
end{align}$$
So $$begin{align}
& (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x +
(bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
= & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x + mu bf y)\
= & -(bf x times bf y cdot bf N);z
end{align} $$
and the result follows.
$endgroup$
Since $bf x, bf y, bf z$ are coplanar, they are linearly dependent. Since the result to be proved is symmetric in $bf x, bf y, bf z$, withouht loss of generality we can write $bf z = lambda bf x + mu bf y$ for some scalars $lambda, mu$.
Now, $$begin{align}
& (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x \
= & (bf y times (lambda bf x + mu bf y) cdot bf N); bf x \
= & (bf y times lambda bf x cdot bf N); bf x \
= & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x)
end{align}$$
and similarly $$begin{align}
& (bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
= & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (mu bf y)
end{align}$$
So $$begin{align}
& (bf y times bf z cdot bf N); bf x +
(bf z times bf x cdot bf N); bf y \
= & (bf y times bf x cdot bf N), (lambda bf x + mu bf y)\
= & -(bf x times bf y cdot bf N);z
end{align} $$
and the result follows.
answered yesterday
alephzeroalephzero
72037
72037
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If you know a little about the exterior algebra we can see this almost immediately, and in a way that generalizes substantially.
Pick any plane $Pi$ containing ${bf x}, {bf y}, {bf z}$. The map on $Pi$ defined by $$({bf a}, {bf b}, {bf c}) mapsto [({bf a} times {bf b}) cdot {bf N}] {bf c} + [({bf b} times {bf c}) cdot {bf N}] {bf a} + [({bf c} times {bf a}) cdot {bf N}] {bf b}$$
is visibly trilinear and totally skew in its arguments, so it is a (vector-valued) $3$-form on a $2$-dimensional vector space and hence is the zero map.
NB this argument doesn't use any properties of $bf N$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If you know a little about the exterior algebra we can see this almost immediately, and in a way that generalizes substantially.
Pick any plane $Pi$ containing ${bf x}, {bf y}, {bf z}$. The map on $Pi$ defined by $$({bf a}, {bf b}, {bf c}) mapsto [({bf a} times {bf b}) cdot {bf N}] {bf c} + [({bf b} times {bf c}) cdot {bf N}] {bf a} + [({bf c} times {bf a}) cdot {bf N}] {bf b}$$
is visibly trilinear and totally skew in its arguments, so it is a (vector-valued) $3$-form on a $2$-dimensional vector space and hence is the zero map.
NB this argument doesn't use any properties of $bf N$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If you know a little about the exterior algebra we can see this almost immediately, and in a way that generalizes substantially.
Pick any plane $Pi$ containing ${bf x}, {bf y}, {bf z}$. The map on $Pi$ defined by $$({bf a}, {bf b}, {bf c}) mapsto [({bf a} times {bf b}) cdot {bf N}] {bf c} + [({bf b} times {bf c}) cdot {bf N}] {bf a} + [({bf c} times {bf a}) cdot {bf N}] {bf b}$$
is visibly trilinear and totally skew in its arguments, so it is a (vector-valued) $3$-form on a $2$-dimensional vector space and hence is the zero map.
NB this argument doesn't use any properties of $bf N$.
$endgroup$
If you know a little about the exterior algebra we can see this almost immediately, and in a way that generalizes substantially.
Pick any plane $Pi$ containing ${bf x}, {bf y}, {bf z}$. The map on $Pi$ defined by $$({bf a}, {bf b}, {bf c}) mapsto [({bf a} times {bf b}) cdot {bf N}] {bf c} + [({bf b} times {bf c}) cdot {bf N}] {bf a} + [({bf c} times {bf a}) cdot {bf N}] {bf b}$$
is visibly trilinear and totally skew in its arguments, so it is a (vector-valued) $3$-form on a $2$-dimensional vector space and hence is the zero map.
NB this argument doesn't use any properties of $bf N$.
answered yesterday


TravisTravis
63.7k769150
63.7k769150
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
By the properties of the triple product ( circluar shift) we can rearrange formula:
$ (mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y} \ =(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{y}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{z}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{x}) mathbf{y} $
All cross product vectors $$v_1=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}),v_2=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}), v_3=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z})$$
lie in the plane of coplanar vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ and they are vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ rotated by $pi/2$ in this plane.
So we can limit themselves to this plane and take any vectors with components $mathbf{x}=[ x_1 x_2]^T,mathbf{y}=[ y_1 y_2]^T,mathbf{z} =[ z_1 z_2]^T$.
Transform them with the rotation matrix $R=begin{bmatrix} 0 & -1 \ 1 & 0 end{bmatrix}$ , calculate appropriate dot products and finally check the formula with these assumed general components.
Namely we need to calculate:
$$(y^TRx)z+(z^TRy)x+(x^TRz)y$$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
By the properties of the triple product ( circluar shift) we can rearrange formula:
$ (mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y} \ =(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{y}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{z}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{x}) mathbf{y} $
All cross product vectors $$v_1=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}),v_2=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}), v_3=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z})$$
lie in the plane of coplanar vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ and they are vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ rotated by $pi/2$ in this plane.
So we can limit themselves to this plane and take any vectors with components $mathbf{x}=[ x_1 x_2]^T,mathbf{y}=[ y_1 y_2]^T,mathbf{z} =[ z_1 z_2]^T$.
Transform them with the rotation matrix $R=begin{bmatrix} 0 & -1 \ 1 & 0 end{bmatrix}$ , calculate appropriate dot products and finally check the formula with these assumed general components.
Namely we need to calculate:
$$(y^TRx)z+(z^TRy)x+(x^TRz)y$$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
By the properties of the triple product ( circluar shift) we can rearrange formula:
$ (mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y} \ =(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{y}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{z}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{x}) mathbf{y} $
All cross product vectors $$v_1=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}),v_2=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}), v_3=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z})$$
lie in the plane of coplanar vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ and they are vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ rotated by $pi/2$ in this plane.
So we can limit themselves to this plane and take any vectors with components $mathbf{x}=[ x_1 x_2]^T,mathbf{y}=[ y_1 y_2]^T,mathbf{z} =[ z_1 z_2]^T$.
Transform them with the rotation matrix $R=begin{bmatrix} 0 & -1 \ 1 & 0 end{bmatrix}$ , calculate appropriate dot products and finally check the formula with these assumed general components.
Namely we need to calculate:
$$(y^TRx)z+(z^TRy)x+(x^TRz)y$$
$endgroup$
By the properties of the triple product ( circluar shift) we can rearrange formula:
$ (mathbf{x}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{y}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{z}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{N}) mathbf{y} \ =(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}) cdot mathbf{y}) mathbf{z} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}) cdot mathbf{z}) mathbf{x} + (mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z}) cdot mathbf{x}) mathbf{y} $
All cross product vectors $$v_1=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{x}),v_2=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{y}), v_3=(mathbf{N}timesmathbf{z})$$
lie in the plane of coplanar vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ and they are vectors $mathbf{x},mathbf{y},mathbf{z}$ rotated by $pi/2$ in this plane.
So we can limit themselves to this plane and take any vectors with components $mathbf{x}=[ x_1 x_2]^T,mathbf{y}=[ y_1 y_2]^T,mathbf{z} =[ z_1 z_2]^T$.
Transform them with the rotation matrix $R=begin{bmatrix} 0 & -1 \ 1 & 0 end{bmatrix}$ , calculate appropriate dot products and finally check the formula with these assumed general components.
Namely we need to calculate:
$$(y^TRx)z+(z^TRy)x+(x^TRz)y$$
edited 20 hours ago
answered yesterday
WidawensenWidawensen
4,69321446
4,69321446
add a comment |
add a comment |
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On AQ0ZHIDxBYkoe8ea J8c74YIdfT9qcT8PFf8aa,PSfk
1
$begingroup$
What does $x times y cdot N$ mean? Dot product $(x times y) cdot N$ ?
$endgroup$
– Widawensen
yesterday
4
$begingroup$
@Widawensen Yes, what else could it mean?
$endgroup$
– Marc van Leeuwen
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@MarcvanLeeuwen: that could mean a badly written problem. That happens here sometimes.
$endgroup$
– Taladris
yesterday