Did Mueller's report provide an evidentiary basis for the claim of Russian govt election interference via...
Over the past several years, many in the US (government and mainstream media) have argued that the Russian government ("The Russians") interfered with the 2016 US elections through the "Internet Research Agency" - a sort of a social media campaigning company / troll farm. It ran some some small-scale campaigns before, during and after the US 2016 elections, with some content supportive of Trump (although to be honest some of those pro-Trump images seem ridiculous enough to have the opposite effect), some critical of Trump, content in support of or against other causes, including the promotion of events or rallies, etc. Some of this happened before the elections, some after; I've even heard the claim that most effort or money was spent after the elections but I may be wrong on this. At least once they even organized opposing rallies. (see this piece for some examples of IRA-originated memes). The total amount of money they spent in 2016 on promoting such content is said to have been $100,000.
When I initially heard about this, I was unconvinced that this a Russian government effort to destabilize the US or to swing the US elections. The amount of money is minuscule (relative to campaigns' media budget), the timing of its spending is off, and subjectively it didn't even seem to me to be a serious effort to get people to support Trump (sometimes more like the opposite). As a lay user, I found this looked more like glorified trolling than international political interference. Several critics (in alternative media mostly) have also expressed such skepticism.
Now that the (redacted version of) Mueller report is out - is there any newly-revealed evidence to support the characterization of these IRA activities as Russian government interference in the US elections? And - what is the new evidence?
Notes:
- I mean evidence - not assertions, intelligence estimates, conclusions, allusions etc.
- On that note - supposedly factual statements in the report which have no source, or whose source supposedly exists but cannot be seen due to a redaction - are not evidence revealed by the redacted report. My question is about evidence revealed in this release.
- Circumstantial evidence is relevant as an answer, but of course its significance is limited.
- There is this annoying use of the term "The Russians" to conflate people living in Russia, Russian companies, Russian business owners and the Russian government, all together. I'm specifically asking about the Russian government.
united-states russian-federation mueller-investigation
|
show 6 more comments
Over the past several years, many in the US (government and mainstream media) have argued that the Russian government ("The Russians") interfered with the 2016 US elections through the "Internet Research Agency" - a sort of a social media campaigning company / troll farm. It ran some some small-scale campaigns before, during and after the US 2016 elections, with some content supportive of Trump (although to be honest some of those pro-Trump images seem ridiculous enough to have the opposite effect), some critical of Trump, content in support of or against other causes, including the promotion of events or rallies, etc. Some of this happened before the elections, some after; I've even heard the claim that most effort or money was spent after the elections but I may be wrong on this. At least once they even organized opposing rallies. (see this piece for some examples of IRA-originated memes). The total amount of money they spent in 2016 on promoting such content is said to have been $100,000.
When I initially heard about this, I was unconvinced that this a Russian government effort to destabilize the US or to swing the US elections. The amount of money is minuscule (relative to campaigns' media budget), the timing of its spending is off, and subjectively it didn't even seem to me to be a serious effort to get people to support Trump (sometimes more like the opposite). As a lay user, I found this looked more like glorified trolling than international political interference. Several critics (in alternative media mostly) have also expressed such skepticism.
Now that the (redacted version of) Mueller report is out - is there any newly-revealed evidence to support the characterization of these IRA activities as Russian government interference in the US elections? And - what is the new evidence?
Notes:
- I mean evidence - not assertions, intelligence estimates, conclusions, allusions etc.
- On that note - supposedly factual statements in the report which have no source, or whose source supposedly exists but cannot be seen due to a redaction - are not evidence revealed by the redacted report. My question is about evidence revealed in this release.
- Circumstantial evidence is relevant as an answer, but of course its significance is limited.
- There is this annoying use of the term "The Russians" to conflate people living in Russia, Russian companies, Russian business owners and the Russian government, all together. I'm specifically asking about the Russian government.
united-states russian-federation mueller-investigation
5
"On that note - supposedly factual statements in the report which have no source, or whose source supposedly exists but cannot be seen due to a redaction - are not evidence revealed by the redacted report. My question is about evidence revealed in this release." 1) Edits made to invalidate answers aren't a good idea, as you know. 2) Given that report is full of redactions, if you want to invalidate all the quotes from IRA documents that don't have an explicit source, you're excluding most of the interesting and especially new information.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
2
If a direct quote or paraphrase has its source redacted, that's no different from an anonymous source in a newspaper article, albeit more annoying. It seems arbitrary to me to exclude that, and certainly not implied in the common understanding of the word evidence. If I could provide the original IRA documents or a video of some IRA person chatting with Mueller, I would, but alas, grand jury investigations and all. I've provided evidence. It may not be persuasive enough for everyone, but that does happen.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
25
@einpoklum It sounds like you've got a misunderstanding of what "evidence" is - the claims of a US intelligence operative is evidence. For that matter, the claims of a random person saying something is also evidence, just not as strong evidence. The case is made by layout lots and lots of evidence, some stronger than other, until the amount and strength of evidence indicates that it is more likely than not that the thing the evidence points to is accurate.
– David Rice
14 hours ago
6
This release specifically does not include the underlying evidence. Given that, why do you assume a footnote listing a source is "better" than a redacted footnote listing a source? Either way, we cannot see the source in most instances. I guess I just don't understand what you're looking for if you want to discount anything the report actually says.
– Geobits
14 hours ago
4
@einpoklum 1) Yes, I'm sure. That's why Sen. Nadler has, this morning, subpoenaed the unredacted version, plus underlying evidence. 2) Unfortunately, it is highly unlikely that all of the sources and/or investigative techniques will be made public any time soon, if ever. That's the nature of counterintelligence work.
– Geobits
12 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
Over the past several years, many in the US (government and mainstream media) have argued that the Russian government ("The Russians") interfered with the 2016 US elections through the "Internet Research Agency" - a sort of a social media campaigning company / troll farm. It ran some some small-scale campaigns before, during and after the US 2016 elections, with some content supportive of Trump (although to be honest some of those pro-Trump images seem ridiculous enough to have the opposite effect), some critical of Trump, content in support of or against other causes, including the promotion of events or rallies, etc. Some of this happened before the elections, some after; I've even heard the claim that most effort or money was spent after the elections but I may be wrong on this. At least once they even organized opposing rallies. (see this piece for some examples of IRA-originated memes). The total amount of money they spent in 2016 on promoting such content is said to have been $100,000.
When I initially heard about this, I was unconvinced that this a Russian government effort to destabilize the US or to swing the US elections. The amount of money is minuscule (relative to campaigns' media budget), the timing of its spending is off, and subjectively it didn't even seem to me to be a serious effort to get people to support Trump (sometimes more like the opposite). As a lay user, I found this looked more like glorified trolling than international political interference. Several critics (in alternative media mostly) have also expressed such skepticism.
Now that the (redacted version of) Mueller report is out - is there any newly-revealed evidence to support the characterization of these IRA activities as Russian government interference in the US elections? And - what is the new evidence?
Notes:
- I mean evidence - not assertions, intelligence estimates, conclusions, allusions etc.
- On that note - supposedly factual statements in the report which have no source, or whose source supposedly exists but cannot be seen due to a redaction - are not evidence revealed by the redacted report. My question is about evidence revealed in this release.
- Circumstantial evidence is relevant as an answer, but of course its significance is limited.
- There is this annoying use of the term "The Russians" to conflate people living in Russia, Russian companies, Russian business owners and the Russian government, all together. I'm specifically asking about the Russian government.
united-states russian-federation mueller-investigation
Over the past several years, many in the US (government and mainstream media) have argued that the Russian government ("The Russians") interfered with the 2016 US elections through the "Internet Research Agency" - a sort of a social media campaigning company / troll farm. It ran some some small-scale campaigns before, during and after the US 2016 elections, with some content supportive of Trump (although to be honest some of those pro-Trump images seem ridiculous enough to have the opposite effect), some critical of Trump, content in support of or against other causes, including the promotion of events or rallies, etc. Some of this happened before the elections, some after; I've even heard the claim that most effort or money was spent after the elections but I may be wrong on this. At least once they even organized opposing rallies. (see this piece for some examples of IRA-originated memes). The total amount of money they spent in 2016 on promoting such content is said to have been $100,000.
When I initially heard about this, I was unconvinced that this a Russian government effort to destabilize the US or to swing the US elections. The amount of money is minuscule (relative to campaigns' media budget), the timing of its spending is off, and subjectively it didn't even seem to me to be a serious effort to get people to support Trump (sometimes more like the opposite). As a lay user, I found this looked more like glorified trolling than international political interference. Several critics (in alternative media mostly) have also expressed such skepticism.
Now that the (redacted version of) Mueller report is out - is there any newly-revealed evidence to support the characterization of these IRA activities as Russian government interference in the US elections? And - what is the new evidence?
Notes:
- I mean evidence - not assertions, intelligence estimates, conclusions, allusions etc.
- On that note - supposedly factual statements in the report which have no source, or whose source supposedly exists but cannot be seen due to a redaction - are not evidence revealed by the redacted report. My question is about evidence revealed in this release.
- Circumstantial evidence is relevant as an answer, but of course its significance is limited.
- There is this annoying use of the term "The Russians" to conflate people living in Russia, Russian companies, Russian business owners and the Russian government, all together. I'm specifically asking about the Russian government.
united-states russian-federation mueller-investigation
united-states russian-federation mueller-investigation
edited 15 hours ago
einpoklum
asked 19 hours ago
einpoklumeinpoklum
2,013829
2,013829
5
"On that note - supposedly factual statements in the report which have no source, or whose source supposedly exists but cannot be seen due to a redaction - are not evidence revealed by the redacted report. My question is about evidence revealed in this release." 1) Edits made to invalidate answers aren't a good idea, as you know. 2) Given that report is full of redactions, if you want to invalidate all the quotes from IRA documents that don't have an explicit source, you're excluding most of the interesting and especially new information.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
2
If a direct quote or paraphrase has its source redacted, that's no different from an anonymous source in a newspaper article, albeit more annoying. It seems arbitrary to me to exclude that, and certainly not implied in the common understanding of the word evidence. If I could provide the original IRA documents or a video of some IRA person chatting with Mueller, I would, but alas, grand jury investigations and all. I've provided evidence. It may not be persuasive enough for everyone, but that does happen.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
25
@einpoklum It sounds like you've got a misunderstanding of what "evidence" is - the claims of a US intelligence operative is evidence. For that matter, the claims of a random person saying something is also evidence, just not as strong evidence. The case is made by layout lots and lots of evidence, some stronger than other, until the amount and strength of evidence indicates that it is more likely than not that the thing the evidence points to is accurate.
– David Rice
14 hours ago
6
This release specifically does not include the underlying evidence. Given that, why do you assume a footnote listing a source is "better" than a redacted footnote listing a source? Either way, we cannot see the source in most instances. I guess I just don't understand what you're looking for if you want to discount anything the report actually says.
– Geobits
14 hours ago
4
@einpoklum 1) Yes, I'm sure. That's why Sen. Nadler has, this morning, subpoenaed the unredacted version, plus underlying evidence. 2) Unfortunately, it is highly unlikely that all of the sources and/or investigative techniques will be made public any time soon, if ever. That's the nature of counterintelligence work.
– Geobits
12 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
5
"On that note - supposedly factual statements in the report which have no source, or whose source supposedly exists but cannot be seen due to a redaction - are not evidence revealed by the redacted report. My question is about evidence revealed in this release." 1) Edits made to invalidate answers aren't a good idea, as you know. 2) Given that report is full of redactions, if you want to invalidate all the quotes from IRA documents that don't have an explicit source, you're excluding most of the interesting and especially new information.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
2
If a direct quote or paraphrase has its source redacted, that's no different from an anonymous source in a newspaper article, albeit more annoying. It seems arbitrary to me to exclude that, and certainly not implied in the common understanding of the word evidence. If I could provide the original IRA documents or a video of some IRA person chatting with Mueller, I would, but alas, grand jury investigations and all. I've provided evidence. It may not be persuasive enough for everyone, but that does happen.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
25
@einpoklum It sounds like you've got a misunderstanding of what "evidence" is - the claims of a US intelligence operative is evidence. For that matter, the claims of a random person saying something is also evidence, just not as strong evidence. The case is made by layout lots and lots of evidence, some stronger than other, until the amount and strength of evidence indicates that it is more likely than not that the thing the evidence points to is accurate.
– David Rice
14 hours ago
6
This release specifically does not include the underlying evidence. Given that, why do you assume a footnote listing a source is "better" than a redacted footnote listing a source? Either way, we cannot see the source in most instances. I guess I just don't understand what you're looking for if you want to discount anything the report actually says.
– Geobits
14 hours ago
4
@einpoklum 1) Yes, I'm sure. That's why Sen. Nadler has, this morning, subpoenaed the unredacted version, plus underlying evidence. 2) Unfortunately, it is highly unlikely that all of the sources and/or investigative techniques will be made public any time soon, if ever. That's the nature of counterintelligence work.
– Geobits
12 hours ago
5
5
"On that note - supposedly factual statements in the report which have no source, or whose source supposedly exists but cannot be seen due to a redaction - are not evidence revealed by the redacted report. My question is about evidence revealed in this release." 1) Edits made to invalidate answers aren't a good idea, as you know. 2) Given that report is full of redactions, if you want to invalidate all the quotes from IRA documents that don't have an explicit source, you're excluding most of the interesting and especially new information.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
"On that note - supposedly factual statements in the report which have no source, or whose source supposedly exists but cannot be seen due to a redaction - are not evidence revealed by the redacted report. My question is about evidence revealed in this release." 1) Edits made to invalidate answers aren't a good idea, as you know. 2) Given that report is full of redactions, if you want to invalidate all the quotes from IRA documents that don't have an explicit source, you're excluding most of the interesting and especially new information.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
2
2
If a direct quote or paraphrase has its source redacted, that's no different from an anonymous source in a newspaper article, albeit more annoying. It seems arbitrary to me to exclude that, and certainly not implied in the common understanding of the word evidence. If I could provide the original IRA documents or a video of some IRA person chatting with Mueller, I would, but alas, grand jury investigations and all. I've provided evidence. It may not be persuasive enough for everyone, but that does happen.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
If a direct quote or paraphrase has its source redacted, that's no different from an anonymous source in a newspaper article, albeit more annoying. It seems arbitrary to me to exclude that, and certainly not implied in the common understanding of the word evidence. If I could provide the original IRA documents or a video of some IRA person chatting with Mueller, I would, but alas, grand jury investigations and all. I've provided evidence. It may not be persuasive enough for everyone, but that does happen.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
25
25
@einpoklum It sounds like you've got a misunderstanding of what "evidence" is - the claims of a US intelligence operative is evidence. For that matter, the claims of a random person saying something is also evidence, just not as strong evidence. The case is made by layout lots and lots of evidence, some stronger than other, until the amount and strength of evidence indicates that it is more likely than not that the thing the evidence points to is accurate.
– David Rice
14 hours ago
@einpoklum It sounds like you've got a misunderstanding of what "evidence" is - the claims of a US intelligence operative is evidence. For that matter, the claims of a random person saying something is also evidence, just not as strong evidence. The case is made by layout lots and lots of evidence, some stronger than other, until the amount and strength of evidence indicates that it is more likely than not that the thing the evidence points to is accurate.
– David Rice
14 hours ago
6
6
This release specifically does not include the underlying evidence. Given that, why do you assume a footnote listing a source is "better" than a redacted footnote listing a source? Either way, we cannot see the source in most instances. I guess I just don't understand what you're looking for if you want to discount anything the report actually says.
– Geobits
14 hours ago
This release specifically does not include the underlying evidence. Given that, why do you assume a footnote listing a source is "better" than a redacted footnote listing a source? Either way, we cannot see the source in most instances. I guess I just don't understand what you're looking for if you want to discount anything the report actually says.
– Geobits
14 hours ago
4
4
@einpoklum 1) Yes, I'm sure. That's why Sen. Nadler has, this morning, subpoenaed the unredacted version, plus underlying evidence. 2) Unfortunately, it is highly unlikely that all of the sources and/or investigative techniques will be made public any time soon, if ever. That's the nature of counterintelligence work.
– Geobits
12 hours ago
@einpoklum 1) Yes, I'm sure. That's why Sen. Nadler has, this morning, subpoenaed the unredacted version, plus underlying evidence. 2) Unfortunately, it is highly unlikely that all of the sources and/or investigative techniques will be made public any time soon, if ever. That's the nature of counterintelligence work.
– Geobits
12 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
Probably
First, the report was heavily redacted. As such, some information is missing. Further, much of the information available in the Mueller report was previously available, so I won't try to determine which information is new, but rather summarize the evidence in the report.
Was there a group based in Russia conducting social media operations?
Yes. As mentioned in the question, that group is the IRA, the Internet Research Agency. From the report:
The first form of Russian election influence came principally from the
Internet Research Agency, LLC (IRA), a Russian organization funded by
Yevgeniy Viktorovich Prigozhin and companies he controlled, including
Concord Management and Consulting LLC and Concord Catering
(collectively "Concord"). The IRA conducted social media operations
targeted at large U.S. audiences with the goal of sowing discord in
the U.S. political system. These operations constituted "active
measures" (aKTMBHbie Meporrprumu), a term that typically refers to
operations conducted by Russian security services aimed at influencing
the course of international affairs.
Was this group trying to influence elections in the US?
Yes. Seemingly they said that explicitly:
IRA employees also acknowledged that their work focused on influencing
the US presidential election.
Although the section surrounding this is entirely redacted, I presume that it includes a quote from internal IRA documents admitting this.
They also focused on US users:
To reach larger U.S. audiences, the IRA purchased advertisements from
Facebook that promoted the IRA groups on the newsfeeds of U.S.
audience members. According to Facebook the IRA purchased over 3,500
advertisements , and the expenditures totaled approximately $100,000.
And common sense simply suggests that when a group spends large amounts of money and labor on political advertisements, they're hoping to influence elections, and not simply trolling.
Did this group favor Trump?
Yes, kind of. Their internal documents explicitly said not to criticize Trump:
By 2016, internal IRA documents referred to support for the Trump campaign and opposition to candidate Clinton. For example, [redacted] directions to IRA operators [redacted] “use any opportunity to criticize Hillary [Clinton] and the rest
(except Sanders and Trump – we support them.”
This may have been more out of opposition to Clinton than positive views of Trump, though. This is supported by the inclusion of Sanders, as well as other internal information:
the author criticized the "lower number of posts dedicated to
criticizing Hillary Clinton" and reminded the Facebook specialist "it
is imperative to intensify criticizing Hillary Clinton."
That said, they seem to have warmed to Trump later:
IRA-purchased advertisements referencing candidate Trump largely
supported his campaign. The first known IRA advertisement explicitly
endorsing the Trump Campaign was purchased on April 19, 2016.
Was the Russian government behind this?
Probably. I doubt it can be proven for certain, but the circumstantial evidence is strong.
First, some of the leadership had close ties to the Russian government.
Two individuals headed the IRA's general management: its general
director, Mikhail Bystrov, and its executive director, Mikhail
Burchik.
Bystrov was the head of a Russian national police organization before starting at the IRA.
As mentioned, the funding came from Yevgeniy Viktorovich Prigozhin, who has close ties to Putin.
None of this proves that the Russian government controlled or influenced the IRA. It is certainly possible that someone close to Putin would have views that aligned well with Putin's goals, and that they'd, and that they'd hire former top-level governmental employees because that's who they knew.
But I think it provides a strong suggestion. A group run by strong Putin allies engaging in clandestine operations favorable to Putin, operating in a state where Putin has a great deal of authority and knowledge? It's like super PACs in the United States: when they're run by close friends or allies of a candidate and very much in line with that candidate, there's very likely to be collusion going on.
Do note that there more explicit statements in the report about the purpose and funding of the IRA. Often they were backed up with redacted references, such as to FBI cases.
Finally, a sanity check. Is it implausible that the Russian government would try to influence politics in other countries? Probably not: many other countries have engaged in similar operations, including the United States, Israel, China etc. It is very common for these groups to be NGOs with the approval of the government, not a government group. This gives the government plausible deniability. As such, the idea that the IRA would conduct political influence campaigns for Putin isn't unsual, but rather quite typical.
9
I thought it was obvious. All of those are from the report.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
5
@einpoklum It can be found on page 24 here: "IRA employees also acknowledged that their work focused on influencing the U.S. presidential election."
– tim
17 hours ago
4
Anyways, the perception of "mixed messaging" is a consequence of two things: 1) Opposition to Clinton was a higher priority than support for Trump. Which I mentioned. Thus, support Sanders, even though he's very different. Encourage more left-wing groups to turn out in the primary, so Clinton doesn't win, which means advertisements for black self-defense classes, LBGT groups, etc. 2) Their messaging evolved over the campaign as their goals changed and they saw what was effective.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
6
@einpoklum - If you're going to provide your analysis, I'm going to provide mine. You seem to have an idea of this group as an incoherent troll farm posting random stuff, but it's not at all.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
16
@einpoklum - What can I say? The situation described in the report is an influence operation with clear political goals to oppose Clinton (and to a lesser extent favor Trump), but whose connection to the Russian government, while probable, is not certain or provable. If that's not too far from the situation the day before the report, c'est la vie.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
|
show 11 more comments
According to CNET, Mueller did find that Russia used a social media campaign to influence the US election in favor of Donald Trump. The campaign cost $35 million (the $100K the question is referring to is just the cost of ads):
Mueller's investigation also found that Russia was backing a $35 million operation to meddle with US politics through social media.
The money was spent between January 2016 and June 2018 and dedicated to spreading disinformation on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. The operation ran like a professional social media marketing campaign, with specific departments in search engine optimization and graphic design, along with a staff of hundreds who posted on social networks.
The group behind the effort, the Internet Research Agency, was directed to support Trump's campaign and attack Clinton, according to the investigation.
The operation also spent $60,000 on Facebook ads, $6,000 on Instagram ads and $18,000 on Twitter.
The details can be seen in the Mueller Report starting at page 14. A lot of specifics are redacted, but the report refers to and cites internal IRA documents as evidence, as well as statements by Facebook.
2
I didn't ask what Mueller found. I asked whether any evidence has been presented. You're telling me "read the report to see".
– einpoklum
17 hours ago
20
@einpoklum you want evidence but you're not interested in the report, which presents the evidence?
– David Rice
15 hours ago
2
@DavidRice As far as I can make out, einpoklum wants the evidence that's in the report to be part of the answer. "Yes, read the report" isn't much of an answer.
– sgf
13 hours ago
@DavidRice; The report is 448 pages, most of which is not evidence. In fact, @Geobits suggested the redacted report may have no new evidence.
– einpoklum
7 hours ago
4
@einpoklum The part about the IRA is only 21 pages (much of which are (redacted) citations, redacted content, images, whitespaces, etc). And I guess it depends on how you define evidence; your bar seems to be unreasonably high; given the nature of counter intelligence, it will probably never be met. But that doesn't mean that we can't draw reasonable conclusions based on the given information. And "A Russian company spent 35 million for the lulz" or "Mueller is making everything up" wouldn't really be reasonable conclusions.
– tim
7 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
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active
oldest
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active
oldest
votes
Probably
First, the report was heavily redacted. As such, some information is missing. Further, much of the information available in the Mueller report was previously available, so I won't try to determine which information is new, but rather summarize the evidence in the report.
Was there a group based in Russia conducting social media operations?
Yes. As mentioned in the question, that group is the IRA, the Internet Research Agency. From the report:
The first form of Russian election influence came principally from the
Internet Research Agency, LLC (IRA), a Russian organization funded by
Yevgeniy Viktorovich Prigozhin and companies he controlled, including
Concord Management and Consulting LLC and Concord Catering
(collectively "Concord"). The IRA conducted social media operations
targeted at large U.S. audiences with the goal of sowing discord in
the U.S. political system. These operations constituted "active
measures" (aKTMBHbie Meporrprumu), a term that typically refers to
operations conducted by Russian security services aimed at influencing
the course of international affairs.
Was this group trying to influence elections in the US?
Yes. Seemingly they said that explicitly:
IRA employees also acknowledged that their work focused on influencing
the US presidential election.
Although the section surrounding this is entirely redacted, I presume that it includes a quote from internal IRA documents admitting this.
They also focused on US users:
To reach larger U.S. audiences, the IRA purchased advertisements from
Facebook that promoted the IRA groups on the newsfeeds of U.S.
audience members. According to Facebook the IRA purchased over 3,500
advertisements , and the expenditures totaled approximately $100,000.
And common sense simply suggests that when a group spends large amounts of money and labor on political advertisements, they're hoping to influence elections, and not simply trolling.
Did this group favor Trump?
Yes, kind of. Their internal documents explicitly said not to criticize Trump:
By 2016, internal IRA documents referred to support for the Trump campaign and opposition to candidate Clinton. For example, [redacted] directions to IRA operators [redacted] “use any opportunity to criticize Hillary [Clinton] and the rest
(except Sanders and Trump – we support them.”
This may have been more out of opposition to Clinton than positive views of Trump, though. This is supported by the inclusion of Sanders, as well as other internal information:
the author criticized the "lower number of posts dedicated to
criticizing Hillary Clinton" and reminded the Facebook specialist "it
is imperative to intensify criticizing Hillary Clinton."
That said, they seem to have warmed to Trump later:
IRA-purchased advertisements referencing candidate Trump largely
supported his campaign. The first known IRA advertisement explicitly
endorsing the Trump Campaign was purchased on April 19, 2016.
Was the Russian government behind this?
Probably. I doubt it can be proven for certain, but the circumstantial evidence is strong.
First, some of the leadership had close ties to the Russian government.
Two individuals headed the IRA's general management: its general
director, Mikhail Bystrov, and its executive director, Mikhail
Burchik.
Bystrov was the head of a Russian national police organization before starting at the IRA.
As mentioned, the funding came from Yevgeniy Viktorovich Prigozhin, who has close ties to Putin.
None of this proves that the Russian government controlled or influenced the IRA. It is certainly possible that someone close to Putin would have views that aligned well with Putin's goals, and that they'd, and that they'd hire former top-level governmental employees because that's who they knew.
But I think it provides a strong suggestion. A group run by strong Putin allies engaging in clandestine operations favorable to Putin, operating in a state where Putin has a great deal of authority and knowledge? It's like super PACs in the United States: when they're run by close friends or allies of a candidate and very much in line with that candidate, there's very likely to be collusion going on.
Do note that there more explicit statements in the report about the purpose and funding of the IRA. Often they were backed up with redacted references, such as to FBI cases.
Finally, a sanity check. Is it implausible that the Russian government would try to influence politics in other countries? Probably not: many other countries have engaged in similar operations, including the United States, Israel, China etc. It is very common for these groups to be NGOs with the approval of the government, not a government group. This gives the government plausible deniability. As such, the idea that the IRA would conduct political influence campaigns for Putin isn't unsual, but rather quite typical.
9
I thought it was obvious. All of those are from the report.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
5
@einpoklum It can be found on page 24 here: "IRA employees also acknowledged that their work focused on influencing the U.S. presidential election."
– tim
17 hours ago
4
Anyways, the perception of "mixed messaging" is a consequence of two things: 1) Opposition to Clinton was a higher priority than support for Trump. Which I mentioned. Thus, support Sanders, even though he's very different. Encourage more left-wing groups to turn out in the primary, so Clinton doesn't win, which means advertisements for black self-defense classes, LBGT groups, etc. 2) Their messaging evolved over the campaign as their goals changed and they saw what was effective.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
6
@einpoklum - If you're going to provide your analysis, I'm going to provide mine. You seem to have an idea of this group as an incoherent troll farm posting random stuff, but it's not at all.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
16
@einpoklum - What can I say? The situation described in the report is an influence operation with clear political goals to oppose Clinton (and to a lesser extent favor Trump), but whose connection to the Russian government, while probable, is not certain or provable. If that's not too far from the situation the day before the report, c'est la vie.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
|
show 11 more comments
Probably
First, the report was heavily redacted. As such, some information is missing. Further, much of the information available in the Mueller report was previously available, so I won't try to determine which information is new, but rather summarize the evidence in the report.
Was there a group based in Russia conducting social media operations?
Yes. As mentioned in the question, that group is the IRA, the Internet Research Agency. From the report:
The first form of Russian election influence came principally from the
Internet Research Agency, LLC (IRA), a Russian organization funded by
Yevgeniy Viktorovich Prigozhin and companies he controlled, including
Concord Management and Consulting LLC and Concord Catering
(collectively "Concord"). The IRA conducted social media operations
targeted at large U.S. audiences with the goal of sowing discord in
the U.S. political system. These operations constituted "active
measures" (aKTMBHbie Meporrprumu), a term that typically refers to
operations conducted by Russian security services aimed at influencing
the course of international affairs.
Was this group trying to influence elections in the US?
Yes. Seemingly they said that explicitly:
IRA employees also acknowledged that their work focused on influencing
the US presidential election.
Although the section surrounding this is entirely redacted, I presume that it includes a quote from internal IRA documents admitting this.
They also focused on US users:
To reach larger U.S. audiences, the IRA purchased advertisements from
Facebook that promoted the IRA groups on the newsfeeds of U.S.
audience members. According to Facebook the IRA purchased over 3,500
advertisements , and the expenditures totaled approximately $100,000.
And common sense simply suggests that when a group spends large amounts of money and labor on political advertisements, they're hoping to influence elections, and not simply trolling.
Did this group favor Trump?
Yes, kind of. Their internal documents explicitly said not to criticize Trump:
By 2016, internal IRA documents referred to support for the Trump campaign and opposition to candidate Clinton. For example, [redacted] directions to IRA operators [redacted] “use any opportunity to criticize Hillary [Clinton] and the rest
(except Sanders and Trump – we support them.”
This may have been more out of opposition to Clinton than positive views of Trump, though. This is supported by the inclusion of Sanders, as well as other internal information:
the author criticized the "lower number of posts dedicated to
criticizing Hillary Clinton" and reminded the Facebook specialist "it
is imperative to intensify criticizing Hillary Clinton."
That said, they seem to have warmed to Trump later:
IRA-purchased advertisements referencing candidate Trump largely
supported his campaign. The first known IRA advertisement explicitly
endorsing the Trump Campaign was purchased on April 19, 2016.
Was the Russian government behind this?
Probably. I doubt it can be proven for certain, but the circumstantial evidence is strong.
First, some of the leadership had close ties to the Russian government.
Two individuals headed the IRA's general management: its general
director, Mikhail Bystrov, and its executive director, Mikhail
Burchik.
Bystrov was the head of a Russian national police organization before starting at the IRA.
As mentioned, the funding came from Yevgeniy Viktorovich Prigozhin, who has close ties to Putin.
None of this proves that the Russian government controlled or influenced the IRA. It is certainly possible that someone close to Putin would have views that aligned well with Putin's goals, and that they'd, and that they'd hire former top-level governmental employees because that's who they knew.
But I think it provides a strong suggestion. A group run by strong Putin allies engaging in clandestine operations favorable to Putin, operating in a state where Putin has a great deal of authority and knowledge? It's like super PACs in the United States: when they're run by close friends or allies of a candidate and very much in line with that candidate, there's very likely to be collusion going on.
Do note that there more explicit statements in the report about the purpose and funding of the IRA. Often they were backed up with redacted references, such as to FBI cases.
Finally, a sanity check. Is it implausible that the Russian government would try to influence politics in other countries? Probably not: many other countries have engaged in similar operations, including the United States, Israel, China etc. It is very common for these groups to be NGOs with the approval of the government, not a government group. This gives the government plausible deniability. As such, the idea that the IRA would conduct political influence campaigns for Putin isn't unsual, but rather quite typical.
9
I thought it was obvious. All of those are from the report.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
5
@einpoklum It can be found on page 24 here: "IRA employees also acknowledged that their work focused on influencing the U.S. presidential election."
– tim
17 hours ago
4
Anyways, the perception of "mixed messaging" is a consequence of two things: 1) Opposition to Clinton was a higher priority than support for Trump. Which I mentioned. Thus, support Sanders, even though he's very different. Encourage more left-wing groups to turn out in the primary, so Clinton doesn't win, which means advertisements for black self-defense classes, LBGT groups, etc. 2) Their messaging evolved over the campaign as their goals changed and they saw what was effective.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
6
@einpoklum - If you're going to provide your analysis, I'm going to provide mine. You seem to have an idea of this group as an incoherent troll farm posting random stuff, but it's not at all.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
16
@einpoklum - What can I say? The situation described in the report is an influence operation with clear political goals to oppose Clinton (and to a lesser extent favor Trump), but whose connection to the Russian government, while probable, is not certain or provable. If that's not too far from the situation the day before the report, c'est la vie.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
|
show 11 more comments
Probably
First, the report was heavily redacted. As such, some information is missing. Further, much of the information available in the Mueller report was previously available, so I won't try to determine which information is new, but rather summarize the evidence in the report.
Was there a group based in Russia conducting social media operations?
Yes. As mentioned in the question, that group is the IRA, the Internet Research Agency. From the report:
The first form of Russian election influence came principally from the
Internet Research Agency, LLC (IRA), a Russian organization funded by
Yevgeniy Viktorovich Prigozhin and companies he controlled, including
Concord Management and Consulting LLC and Concord Catering
(collectively "Concord"). The IRA conducted social media operations
targeted at large U.S. audiences with the goal of sowing discord in
the U.S. political system. These operations constituted "active
measures" (aKTMBHbie Meporrprumu), a term that typically refers to
operations conducted by Russian security services aimed at influencing
the course of international affairs.
Was this group trying to influence elections in the US?
Yes. Seemingly they said that explicitly:
IRA employees also acknowledged that their work focused on influencing
the US presidential election.
Although the section surrounding this is entirely redacted, I presume that it includes a quote from internal IRA documents admitting this.
They also focused on US users:
To reach larger U.S. audiences, the IRA purchased advertisements from
Facebook that promoted the IRA groups on the newsfeeds of U.S.
audience members. According to Facebook the IRA purchased over 3,500
advertisements , and the expenditures totaled approximately $100,000.
And common sense simply suggests that when a group spends large amounts of money and labor on political advertisements, they're hoping to influence elections, and not simply trolling.
Did this group favor Trump?
Yes, kind of. Their internal documents explicitly said not to criticize Trump:
By 2016, internal IRA documents referred to support for the Trump campaign and opposition to candidate Clinton. For example, [redacted] directions to IRA operators [redacted] “use any opportunity to criticize Hillary [Clinton] and the rest
(except Sanders and Trump – we support them.”
This may have been more out of opposition to Clinton than positive views of Trump, though. This is supported by the inclusion of Sanders, as well as other internal information:
the author criticized the "lower number of posts dedicated to
criticizing Hillary Clinton" and reminded the Facebook specialist "it
is imperative to intensify criticizing Hillary Clinton."
That said, they seem to have warmed to Trump later:
IRA-purchased advertisements referencing candidate Trump largely
supported his campaign. The first known IRA advertisement explicitly
endorsing the Trump Campaign was purchased on April 19, 2016.
Was the Russian government behind this?
Probably. I doubt it can be proven for certain, but the circumstantial evidence is strong.
First, some of the leadership had close ties to the Russian government.
Two individuals headed the IRA's general management: its general
director, Mikhail Bystrov, and its executive director, Mikhail
Burchik.
Bystrov was the head of a Russian national police organization before starting at the IRA.
As mentioned, the funding came from Yevgeniy Viktorovich Prigozhin, who has close ties to Putin.
None of this proves that the Russian government controlled or influenced the IRA. It is certainly possible that someone close to Putin would have views that aligned well with Putin's goals, and that they'd, and that they'd hire former top-level governmental employees because that's who they knew.
But I think it provides a strong suggestion. A group run by strong Putin allies engaging in clandestine operations favorable to Putin, operating in a state where Putin has a great deal of authority and knowledge? It's like super PACs in the United States: when they're run by close friends or allies of a candidate and very much in line with that candidate, there's very likely to be collusion going on.
Do note that there more explicit statements in the report about the purpose and funding of the IRA. Often they were backed up with redacted references, such as to FBI cases.
Finally, a sanity check. Is it implausible that the Russian government would try to influence politics in other countries? Probably not: many other countries have engaged in similar operations, including the United States, Israel, China etc. It is very common for these groups to be NGOs with the approval of the government, not a government group. This gives the government plausible deniability. As such, the idea that the IRA would conduct political influence campaigns for Putin isn't unsual, but rather quite typical.
Probably
First, the report was heavily redacted. As such, some information is missing. Further, much of the information available in the Mueller report was previously available, so I won't try to determine which information is new, but rather summarize the evidence in the report.
Was there a group based in Russia conducting social media operations?
Yes. As mentioned in the question, that group is the IRA, the Internet Research Agency. From the report:
The first form of Russian election influence came principally from the
Internet Research Agency, LLC (IRA), a Russian organization funded by
Yevgeniy Viktorovich Prigozhin and companies he controlled, including
Concord Management and Consulting LLC and Concord Catering
(collectively "Concord"). The IRA conducted social media operations
targeted at large U.S. audiences with the goal of sowing discord in
the U.S. political system. These operations constituted "active
measures" (aKTMBHbie Meporrprumu), a term that typically refers to
operations conducted by Russian security services aimed at influencing
the course of international affairs.
Was this group trying to influence elections in the US?
Yes. Seemingly they said that explicitly:
IRA employees also acknowledged that their work focused on influencing
the US presidential election.
Although the section surrounding this is entirely redacted, I presume that it includes a quote from internal IRA documents admitting this.
They also focused on US users:
To reach larger U.S. audiences, the IRA purchased advertisements from
Facebook that promoted the IRA groups on the newsfeeds of U.S.
audience members. According to Facebook the IRA purchased over 3,500
advertisements , and the expenditures totaled approximately $100,000.
And common sense simply suggests that when a group spends large amounts of money and labor on political advertisements, they're hoping to influence elections, and not simply trolling.
Did this group favor Trump?
Yes, kind of. Their internal documents explicitly said not to criticize Trump:
By 2016, internal IRA documents referred to support for the Trump campaign and opposition to candidate Clinton. For example, [redacted] directions to IRA operators [redacted] “use any opportunity to criticize Hillary [Clinton] and the rest
(except Sanders and Trump – we support them.”
This may have been more out of opposition to Clinton than positive views of Trump, though. This is supported by the inclusion of Sanders, as well as other internal information:
the author criticized the "lower number of posts dedicated to
criticizing Hillary Clinton" and reminded the Facebook specialist "it
is imperative to intensify criticizing Hillary Clinton."
That said, they seem to have warmed to Trump later:
IRA-purchased advertisements referencing candidate Trump largely
supported his campaign. The first known IRA advertisement explicitly
endorsing the Trump Campaign was purchased on April 19, 2016.
Was the Russian government behind this?
Probably. I doubt it can be proven for certain, but the circumstantial evidence is strong.
First, some of the leadership had close ties to the Russian government.
Two individuals headed the IRA's general management: its general
director, Mikhail Bystrov, and its executive director, Mikhail
Burchik.
Bystrov was the head of a Russian national police organization before starting at the IRA.
As mentioned, the funding came from Yevgeniy Viktorovich Prigozhin, who has close ties to Putin.
None of this proves that the Russian government controlled or influenced the IRA. It is certainly possible that someone close to Putin would have views that aligned well with Putin's goals, and that they'd, and that they'd hire former top-level governmental employees because that's who they knew.
But I think it provides a strong suggestion. A group run by strong Putin allies engaging in clandestine operations favorable to Putin, operating in a state where Putin has a great deal of authority and knowledge? It's like super PACs in the United States: when they're run by close friends or allies of a candidate and very much in line with that candidate, there's very likely to be collusion going on.
Do note that there more explicit statements in the report about the purpose and funding of the IRA. Often they were backed up with redacted references, such as to FBI cases.
Finally, a sanity check. Is it implausible that the Russian government would try to influence politics in other countries? Probably not: many other countries have engaged in similar operations, including the United States, Israel, China etc. It is very common for these groups to be NGOs with the approval of the government, not a government group. This gives the government plausible deniability. As such, the idea that the IRA would conduct political influence campaigns for Putin isn't unsual, but rather quite typical.
answered 17 hours ago
Obie 2.0Obie 2.0
2,758925
2,758925
9
I thought it was obvious. All of those are from the report.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
5
@einpoklum It can be found on page 24 here: "IRA employees also acknowledged that their work focused on influencing the U.S. presidential election."
– tim
17 hours ago
4
Anyways, the perception of "mixed messaging" is a consequence of two things: 1) Opposition to Clinton was a higher priority than support for Trump. Which I mentioned. Thus, support Sanders, even though he's very different. Encourage more left-wing groups to turn out in the primary, so Clinton doesn't win, which means advertisements for black self-defense classes, LBGT groups, etc. 2) Their messaging evolved over the campaign as their goals changed and they saw what was effective.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
6
@einpoklum - If you're going to provide your analysis, I'm going to provide mine. You seem to have an idea of this group as an incoherent troll farm posting random stuff, but it's not at all.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
16
@einpoklum - What can I say? The situation described in the report is an influence operation with clear political goals to oppose Clinton (and to a lesser extent favor Trump), but whose connection to the Russian government, while probable, is not certain or provable. If that's not too far from the situation the day before the report, c'est la vie.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
|
show 11 more comments
9
I thought it was obvious. All of those are from the report.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
5
@einpoklum It can be found on page 24 here: "IRA employees also acknowledged that their work focused on influencing the U.S. presidential election."
– tim
17 hours ago
4
Anyways, the perception of "mixed messaging" is a consequence of two things: 1) Opposition to Clinton was a higher priority than support for Trump. Which I mentioned. Thus, support Sanders, even though he's very different. Encourage more left-wing groups to turn out in the primary, so Clinton doesn't win, which means advertisements for black self-defense classes, LBGT groups, etc. 2) Their messaging evolved over the campaign as their goals changed and they saw what was effective.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
6
@einpoklum - If you're going to provide your analysis, I'm going to provide mine. You seem to have an idea of this group as an incoherent troll farm posting random stuff, but it's not at all.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
16
@einpoklum - What can I say? The situation described in the report is an influence operation with clear political goals to oppose Clinton (and to a lesser extent favor Trump), but whose connection to the Russian government, while probable, is not certain or provable. If that's not too far from the situation the day before the report, c'est la vie.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
9
9
I thought it was obvious. All of those are from the report.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
I thought it was obvious. All of those are from the report.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
5
5
@einpoklum It can be found on page 24 here: "IRA employees also acknowledged that their work focused on influencing the U.S. presidential election."
– tim
17 hours ago
@einpoklum It can be found on page 24 here: "IRA employees also acknowledged that their work focused on influencing the U.S. presidential election."
– tim
17 hours ago
4
4
Anyways, the perception of "mixed messaging" is a consequence of two things: 1) Opposition to Clinton was a higher priority than support for Trump. Which I mentioned. Thus, support Sanders, even though he's very different. Encourage more left-wing groups to turn out in the primary, so Clinton doesn't win, which means advertisements for black self-defense classes, LBGT groups, etc. 2) Their messaging evolved over the campaign as their goals changed and they saw what was effective.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
Anyways, the perception of "mixed messaging" is a consequence of two things: 1) Opposition to Clinton was a higher priority than support for Trump. Which I mentioned. Thus, support Sanders, even though he's very different. Encourage more left-wing groups to turn out in the primary, so Clinton doesn't win, which means advertisements for black self-defense classes, LBGT groups, etc. 2) Their messaging evolved over the campaign as their goals changed and they saw what was effective.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
6
6
@einpoklum - If you're going to provide your analysis, I'm going to provide mine. You seem to have an idea of this group as an incoherent troll farm posting random stuff, but it's not at all.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
@einpoklum - If you're going to provide your analysis, I'm going to provide mine. You seem to have an idea of this group as an incoherent troll farm posting random stuff, but it's not at all.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
16
16
@einpoklum - What can I say? The situation described in the report is an influence operation with clear political goals to oppose Clinton (and to a lesser extent favor Trump), but whose connection to the Russian government, while probable, is not certain or provable. If that's not too far from the situation the day before the report, c'est la vie.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
@einpoklum - What can I say? The situation described in the report is an influence operation with clear political goals to oppose Clinton (and to a lesser extent favor Trump), but whose connection to the Russian government, while probable, is not certain or provable. If that's not too far from the situation the day before the report, c'est la vie.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
|
show 11 more comments
According to CNET, Mueller did find that Russia used a social media campaign to influence the US election in favor of Donald Trump. The campaign cost $35 million (the $100K the question is referring to is just the cost of ads):
Mueller's investigation also found that Russia was backing a $35 million operation to meddle with US politics through social media.
The money was spent between January 2016 and June 2018 and dedicated to spreading disinformation on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. The operation ran like a professional social media marketing campaign, with specific departments in search engine optimization and graphic design, along with a staff of hundreds who posted on social networks.
The group behind the effort, the Internet Research Agency, was directed to support Trump's campaign and attack Clinton, according to the investigation.
The operation also spent $60,000 on Facebook ads, $6,000 on Instagram ads and $18,000 on Twitter.
The details can be seen in the Mueller Report starting at page 14. A lot of specifics are redacted, but the report refers to and cites internal IRA documents as evidence, as well as statements by Facebook.
2
I didn't ask what Mueller found. I asked whether any evidence has been presented. You're telling me "read the report to see".
– einpoklum
17 hours ago
20
@einpoklum you want evidence but you're not interested in the report, which presents the evidence?
– David Rice
15 hours ago
2
@DavidRice As far as I can make out, einpoklum wants the evidence that's in the report to be part of the answer. "Yes, read the report" isn't much of an answer.
– sgf
13 hours ago
@DavidRice; The report is 448 pages, most of which is not evidence. In fact, @Geobits suggested the redacted report may have no new evidence.
– einpoklum
7 hours ago
4
@einpoklum The part about the IRA is only 21 pages (much of which are (redacted) citations, redacted content, images, whitespaces, etc). And I guess it depends on how you define evidence; your bar seems to be unreasonably high; given the nature of counter intelligence, it will probably never be met. But that doesn't mean that we can't draw reasonable conclusions based on the given information. And "A Russian company spent 35 million for the lulz" or "Mueller is making everything up" wouldn't really be reasonable conclusions.
– tim
7 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
According to CNET, Mueller did find that Russia used a social media campaign to influence the US election in favor of Donald Trump. The campaign cost $35 million (the $100K the question is referring to is just the cost of ads):
Mueller's investigation also found that Russia was backing a $35 million operation to meddle with US politics through social media.
The money was spent between January 2016 and June 2018 and dedicated to spreading disinformation on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. The operation ran like a professional social media marketing campaign, with specific departments in search engine optimization and graphic design, along with a staff of hundreds who posted on social networks.
The group behind the effort, the Internet Research Agency, was directed to support Trump's campaign and attack Clinton, according to the investigation.
The operation also spent $60,000 on Facebook ads, $6,000 on Instagram ads and $18,000 on Twitter.
The details can be seen in the Mueller Report starting at page 14. A lot of specifics are redacted, but the report refers to and cites internal IRA documents as evidence, as well as statements by Facebook.
2
I didn't ask what Mueller found. I asked whether any evidence has been presented. You're telling me "read the report to see".
– einpoklum
17 hours ago
20
@einpoklum you want evidence but you're not interested in the report, which presents the evidence?
– David Rice
15 hours ago
2
@DavidRice As far as I can make out, einpoklum wants the evidence that's in the report to be part of the answer. "Yes, read the report" isn't much of an answer.
– sgf
13 hours ago
@DavidRice; The report is 448 pages, most of which is not evidence. In fact, @Geobits suggested the redacted report may have no new evidence.
– einpoklum
7 hours ago
4
@einpoklum The part about the IRA is only 21 pages (much of which are (redacted) citations, redacted content, images, whitespaces, etc). And I guess it depends on how you define evidence; your bar seems to be unreasonably high; given the nature of counter intelligence, it will probably never be met. But that doesn't mean that we can't draw reasonable conclusions based on the given information. And "A Russian company spent 35 million for the lulz" or "Mueller is making everything up" wouldn't really be reasonable conclusions.
– tim
7 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
According to CNET, Mueller did find that Russia used a social media campaign to influence the US election in favor of Donald Trump. The campaign cost $35 million (the $100K the question is referring to is just the cost of ads):
Mueller's investigation also found that Russia was backing a $35 million operation to meddle with US politics through social media.
The money was spent between January 2016 and June 2018 and dedicated to spreading disinformation on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. The operation ran like a professional social media marketing campaign, with specific departments in search engine optimization and graphic design, along with a staff of hundreds who posted on social networks.
The group behind the effort, the Internet Research Agency, was directed to support Trump's campaign and attack Clinton, according to the investigation.
The operation also spent $60,000 on Facebook ads, $6,000 on Instagram ads and $18,000 on Twitter.
The details can be seen in the Mueller Report starting at page 14. A lot of specifics are redacted, but the report refers to and cites internal IRA documents as evidence, as well as statements by Facebook.
According to CNET, Mueller did find that Russia used a social media campaign to influence the US election in favor of Donald Trump. The campaign cost $35 million (the $100K the question is referring to is just the cost of ads):
Mueller's investigation also found that Russia was backing a $35 million operation to meddle with US politics through social media.
The money was spent between January 2016 and June 2018 and dedicated to spreading disinformation on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. The operation ran like a professional social media marketing campaign, with specific departments in search engine optimization and graphic design, along with a staff of hundreds who posted on social networks.
The group behind the effort, the Internet Research Agency, was directed to support Trump's campaign and attack Clinton, according to the investigation.
The operation also spent $60,000 on Facebook ads, $6,000 on Instagram ads and $18,000 on Twitter.
The details can be seen in the Mueller Report starting at page 14. A lot of specifics are redacted, but the report refers to and cites internal IRA documents as evidence, as well as statements by Facebook.
answered 18 hours ago
timtim
19k114983
19k114983
2
I didn't ask what Mueller found. I asked whether any evidence has been presented. You're telling me "read the report to see".
– einpoklum
17 hours ago
20
@einpoklum you want evidence but you're not interested in the report, which presents the evidence?
– David Rice
15 hours ago
2
@DavidRice As far as I can make out, einpoklum wants the evidence that's in the report to be part of the answer. "Yes, read the report" isn't much of an answer.
– sgf
13 hours ago
@DavidRice; The report is 448 pages, most of which is not evidence. In fact, @Geobits suggested the redacted report may have no new evidence.
– einpoklum
7 hours ago
4
@einpoklum The part about the IRA is only 21 pages (much of which are (redacted) citations, redacted content, images, whitespaces, etc). And I guess it depends on how you define evidence; your bar seems to be unreasonably high; given the nature of counter intelligence, it will probably never be met. But that doesn't mean that we can't draw reasonable conclusions based on the given information. And "A Russian company spent 35 million for the lulz" or "Mueller is making everything up" wouldn't really be reasonable conclusions.
– tim
7 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
2
I didn't ask what Mueller found. I asked whether any evidence has been presented. You're telling me "read the report to see".
– einpoklum
17 hours ago
20
@einpoklum you want evidence but you're not interested in the report, which presents the evidence?
– David Rice
15 hours ago
2
@DavidRice As far as I can make out, einpoklum wants the evidence that's in the report to be part of the answer. "Yes, read the report" isn't much of an answer.
– sgf
13 hours ago
@DavidRice; The report is 448 pages, most of which is not evidence. In fact, @Geobits suggested the redacted report may have no new evidence.
– einpoklum
7 hours ago
4
@einpoklum The part about the IRA is only 21 pages (much of which are (redacted) citations, redacted content, images, whitespaces, etc). And I guess it depends on how you define evidence; your bar seems to be unreasonably high; given the nature of counter intelligence, it will probably never be met. But that doesn't mean that we can't draw reasonable conclusions based on the given information. And "A Russian company spent 35 million for the lulz" or "Mueller is making everything up" wouldn't really be reasonable conclusions.
– tim
7 hours ago
2
2
I didn't ask what Mueller found. I asked whether any evidence has been presented. You're telling me "read the report to see".
– einpoklum
17 hours ago
I didn't ask what Mueller found. I asked whether any evidence has been presented. You're telling me "read the report to see".
– einpoklum
17 hours ago
20
20
@einpoklum you want evidence but you're not interested in the report, which presents the evidence?
– David Rice
15 hours ago
@einpoklum you want evidence but you're not interested in the report, which presents the evidence?
– David Rice
15 hours ago
2
2
@DavidRice As far as I can make out, einpoklum wants the evidence that's in the report to be part of the answer. "Yes, read the report" isn't much of an answer.
– sgf
13 hours ago
@DavidRice As far as I can make out, einpoklum wants the evidence that's in the report to be part of the answer. "Yes, read the report" isn't much of an answer.
– sgf
13 hours ago
@DavidRice; The report is 448 pages, most of which is not evidence. In fact, @Geobits suggested the redacted report may have no new evidence.
– einpoklum
7 hours ago
@DavidRice; The report is 448 pages, most of which is not evidence. In fact, @Geobits suggested the redacted report may have no new evidence.
– einpoklum
7 hours ago
4
4
@einpoklum The part about the IRA is only 21 pages (much of which are (redacted) citations, redacted content, images, whitespaces, etc). And I guess it depends on how you define evidence; your bar seems to be unreasonably high; given the nature of counter intelligence, it will probably never be met. But that doesn't mean that we can't draw reasonable conclusions based on the given information. And "A Russian company spent 35 million for the lulz" or "Mueller is making everything up" wouldn't really be reasonable conclusions.
– tim
7 hours ago
@einpoklum The part about the IRA is only 21 pages (much of which are (redacted) citations, redacted content, images, whitespaces, etc). And I guess it depends on how you define evidence; your bar seems to be unreasonably high; given the nature of counter intelligence, it will probably never be met. But that doesn't mean that we can't draw reasonable conclusions based on the given information. And "A Russian company spent 35 million for the lulz" or "Mueller is making everything up" wouldn't really be reasonable conclusions.
– tim
7 hours ago
|
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5
"On that note - supposedly factual statements in the report which have no source, or whose source supposedly exists but cannot be seen due to a redaction - are not evidence revealed by the redacted report. My question is about evidence revealed in this release." 1) Edits made to invalidate answers aren't a good idea, as you know. 2) Given that report is full of redactions, if you want to invalidate all the quotes from IRA documents that don't have an explicit source, you're excluding most of the interesting and especially new information.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
2
If a direct quote or paraphrase has its source redacted, that's no different from an anonymous source in a newspaper article, albeit more annoying. It seems arbitrary to me to exclude that, and certainly not implied in the common understanding of the word evidence. If I could provide the original IRA documents or a video of some IRA person chatting with Mueller, I would, but alas, grand jury investigations and all. I've provided evidence. It may not be persuasive enough for everyone, but that does happen.
– Obie 2.0
17 hours ago
25
@einpoklum It sounds like you've got a misunderstanding of what "evidence" is - the claims of a US intelligence operative is evidence. For that matter, the claims of a random person saying something is also evidence, just not as strong evidence. The case is made by layout lots and lots of evidence, some stronger than other, until the amount and strength of evidence indicates that it is more likely than not that the thing the evidence points to is accurate.
– David Rice
14 hours ago
6
This release specifically does not include the underlying evidence. Given that, why do you assume a footnote listing a source is "better" than a redacted footnote listing a source? Either way, we cannot see the source in most instances. I guess I just don't understand what you're looking for if you want to discount anything the report actually says.
– Geobits
14 hours ago
4
@einpoklum 1) Yes, I'm sure. That's why Sen. Nadler has, this morning, subpoenaed the unredacted version, plus underlying evidence. 2) Unfortunately, it is highly unlikely that all of the sources and/or investigative techniques will be made public any time soon, if ever. That's the nature of counterintelligence work.
– Geobits
12 hours ago