How was the “elliptical dual” used?
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In a comment on this answer, TKR brought up an interesting point of grammar I'd never heard of.
Αἴαντε [Ajax-DUAL] is an interesting case. Though readers of Homer since antiquity have interpreted it as "the two Ajaxes", this seems to be a misunderstanding: it originally meant "Ajax and Teucer", an Indo-European "elliptical dual" (where dual of X means "X and someone closely associated with X").
This sounds interesting, but I've never heard of an "elliptical dual" before. How and when was it used in Greek? Clear, unambiguous examples (i.e. where it's clear it doesn't mean "the two X") would be especially appreciated.
greek grammar-identification dual
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In a comment on this answer, TKR brought up an interesting point of grammar I'd never heard of.
Αἴαντε [Ajax-DUAL] is an interesting case. Though readers of Homer since antiquity have interpreted it as "the two Ajaxes", this seems to be a misunderstanding: it originally meant "Ajax and Teucer", an Indo-European "elliptical dual" (where dual of X means "X and someone closely associated with X").
This sounds interesting, but I've never heard of an "elliptical dual" before. How and when was it used in Greek? Clear, unambiguous examples (i.e. where it's clear it doesn't mean "the two X") would be especially appreciated.
greek grammar-identification dual
I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
1 hour ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
In a comment on this answer, TKR brought up an interesting point of grammar I'd never heard of.
Αἴαντε [Ajax-DUAL] is an interesting case. Though readers of Homer since antiquity have interpreted it as "the two Ajaxes", this seems to be a misunderstanding: it originally meant "Ajax and Teucer", an Indo-European "elliptical dual" (where dual of X means "X and someone closely associated with X").
This sounds interesting, but I've never heard of an "elliptical dual" before. How and when was it used in Greek? Clear, unambiguous examples (i.e. where it's clear it doesn't mean "the two X") would be especially appreciated.
greek grammar-identification dual
In a comment on this answer, TKR brought up an interesting point of grammar I'd never heard of.
Αἴαντε [Ajax-DUAL] is an interesting case. Though readers of Homer since antiquity have interpreted it as "the two Ajaxes", this seems to be a misunderstanding: it originally meant "Ajax and Teucer", an Indo-European "elliptical dual" (where dual of X means "X and someone closely associated with X").
This sounds interesting, but I've never heard of an "elliptical dual" before. How and when was it used in Greek? Clear, unambiguous examples (i.e. where it's clear it doesn't mean "the two X") would be especially appreciated.
greek grammar-identification dual
greek grammar-identification dual
edited 4 hours ago
asked 4 hours ago
Draconis
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13.9k11757
I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
1 hour ago
add a comment |
I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
1 hour ago
I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
1 hour ago
I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
1 hour ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
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I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.
In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:
pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"
mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"
Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"
ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"
dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"
There are similar examples in Avestan and possibly in Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has an example using plural morphology: Castorēs, which means "Castor and Pollux" (not "several people named Castor").
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
3 hours ago
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
3 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:
al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”
al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”
al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”
al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.
In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:
pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"
mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"
Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"
ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"
dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"
There are similar examples in Avestan and possibly in Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has an example using plural morphology: Castorēs, which means "Castor and Pollux" (not "several people named Castor").
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
3 hours ago
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
3 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.
In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:
pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"
mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"
Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"
ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"
dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"
There are similar examples in Avestan and possibly in Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has an example using plural morphology: Castorēs, which means "Castor and Pollux" (not "several people named Castor").
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
3 hours ago
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
3 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.
In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:
pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"
mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"
Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"
ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"
dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"
There are similar examples in Avestan and possibly in Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has an example using plural morphology: Castorēs, which means "Castor and Pollux" (not "several people named Castor").
I don't think there are any really clear uses in Greek; the elliptical dual is an archaic Indo-European construction which is no longer productive in Greek, and the elliptical interpretation of Αἴαντε (and the parallel Μολίονε) is based on the usage of other IE languages, mainly Sanskrit.
In Sanskrit, however, the usage is pretty clear. Basically, the idea is that you can refer to a pair of people or things that go together by using the dual form of one of the pair. Some examples:
pitarau "father-DUAL" = "father and mother"
mātarau "mother-DUAL" = "mother and father"
Mitrā "Mitra-DUAL" = "Mitra and Vāruna"
ahanī "day-DUAL" = "day and night"
dyāyā "heaven-DUAL" = "heaven and earth"
There are similar examples in Avestan and possibly in Tocharian. And even Latin, which has lost the dual, has an example using plural morphology: Castorēs, which means "Castor and Pollux" (not "several people named Castor").
answered 4 hours ago
TKR
13.3k2755
13.3k2755
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
3 hours ago
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
3 hours ago
add a comment |
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
3 hours ago
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
3 hours ago
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
3 hours ago
In Old Norse "A noun (usually a proper name) was often put in apposition, or partial apposition, to a dual pronoun of the first or second person ... as vit Hǫttr 'Hǫtt and I'; þit móðir mín 'you and my mother'" - E. V. Gordon, introduction to Old Norse.
– Colin Fine
3 hours ago
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
3 hours ago
@ColinFine Some dialects of French have this too: nous deux Jean 'Jean and I'. It's a somewhat different construction, though.
– TKR
3 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:
al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”
al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”
al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”
al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:
al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”
al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”
al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”
al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:
al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”
al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”
al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”
al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.
Common also in classical Arabic, e.g.:
al-qamarāni “the two moons” for “sun and moon”
al-ʼabawāni “the two fathers” for “father and mother”
al-furatāni “the two Euphrates” for “Tigris and Euphrates”
al-ʻumarāni “the two ʻUmars” for the first two caliphs, Abū Bakr and ʻUmar.
answered 3 hours ago
fdb
10.4k11127
10.4k11127
add a comment |
add a comment |
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I think the term associative is much more common in contemporary linguistic research, whereas elliptical is redolent of the Junggrammatiker, imho.
– Alex B.
1 hour ago