Is it illegal in Germany to take sick leave if you caused your own illness? [on hold]












32















So I just had a break and ate pizza at the Italian restaurant next door.

Since I like spicy food I ordered a spicy pizza. I even spiced it up.

Back from break I was feeling sick for about 30 seconds. So I was wondering: "If I would have really felt sick due to that pizza and signed off because I was feeling sick, would that be illegal or a crime?"



I know (or at least I think I know) that making oneself ill is illegal, because it's cheating the employer, but on the other hand it's ones right to choose what one wants to eat.



My question is now could I eat that pizza again?










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put on hold as off-topic by sf02, Kozaky, gnat, OldPadawan, IDrinkandIKnowThings 9 hours ago


This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:


  • "Questions require a goal that we can address. Rather than explaining the difficulties of your situation, explain what you want to do to make it better. For more information, see this meta post." – Kozaky, gnat, OldPadawan, IDrinkandIKnowThings

If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.












  • 35





    "I was feeling sick for about 30 seconds" - do you really mean 30 seconds, or 30 minutes? 30 seconds is nothing, you probably just had some reflux.

    – David K
    yesterday






  • 41





    This may seem like an odd question, but it's pretty much analogous to asking if it's okay to take sick leave for being hungover.

    – David K
    yesterday






  • 15





    What causes you to think that making yourself ill is illegal?

    – IDrinkandIKnowThings
    yesterday






  • 18





    Welcome to this site! I would like a clarification: do you mean "getting sick on purpose by eating something" or "getting sick accidentally by eating something"

    – aaaaaa
    yesterday








  • 15





    Nothing illegal here, just ridiculous. Since this is a hypothetical question, are you really asking if you could use this pizza scheme to get a day off in the future?

    – Joe Strazzere
    yesterday


















32















So I just had a break and ate pizza at the Italian restaurant next door.

Since I like spicy food I ordered a spicy pizza. I even spiced it up.

Back from break I was feeling sick for about 30 seconds. So I was wondering: "If I would have really felt sick due to that pizza and signed off because I was feeling sick, would that be illegal or a crime?"



I know (or at least I think I know) that making oneself ill is illegal, because it's cheating the employer, but on the other hand it's ones right to choose what one wants to eat.



My question is now could I eat that pizza again?










share|improve this question









New contributor




Jannis is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











put on hold as off-topic by sf02, Kozaky, gnat, OldPadawan, IDrinkandIKnowThings 9 hours ago


This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:


  • "Questions require a goal that we can address. Rather than explaining the difficulties of your situation, explain what you want to do to make it better. For more information, see this meta post." – Kozaky, gnat, OldPadawan, IDrinkandIKnowThings

If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.












  • 35





    "I was feeling sick for about 30 seconds" - do you really mean 30 seconds, or 30 minutes? 30 seconds is nothing, you probably just had some reflux.

    – David K
    yesterday






  • 41





    This may seem like an odd question, but it's pretty much analogous to asking if it's okay to take sick leave for being hungover.

    – David K
    yesterday






  • 15





    What causes you to think that making yourself ill is illegal?

    – IDrinkandIKnowThings
    yesterday






  • 18





    Welcome to this site! I would like a clarification: do you mean "getting sick on purpose by eating something" or "getting sick accidentally by eating something"

    – aaaaaa
    yesterday








  • 15





    Nothing illegal here, just ridiculous. Since this is a hypothetical question, are you really asking if you could use this pizza scheme to get a day off in the future?

    – Joe Strazzere
    yesterday
















32












32








32


2






So I just had a break and ate pizza at the Italian restaurant next door.

Since I like spicy food I ordered a spicy pizza. I even spiced it up.

Back from break I was feeling sick for about 30 seconds. So I was wondering: "If I would have really felt sick due to that pizza and signed off because I was feeling sick, would that be illegal or a crime?"



I know (or at least I think I know) that making oneself ill is illegal, because it's cheating the employer, but on the other hand it's ones right to choose what one wants to eat.



My question is now could I eat that pizza again?










share|improve this question









New contributor




Jannis is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












So I just had a break and ate pizza at the Italian restaurant next door.

Since I like spicy food I ordered a spicy pizza. I even spiced it up.

Back from break I was feeling sick for about 30 seconds. So I was wondering: "If I would have really felt sick due to that pizza and signed off because I was feeling sick, would that be illegal or a crime?"



I know (or at least I think I know) that making oneself ill is illegal, because it's cheating the employer, but on the other hand it's ones right to choose what one wants to eat.



My question is now could I eat that pizza again?







germany sickness






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Jannis is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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edited 9 hours ago









IDrinkandIKnowThings

44.8k15101193




44.8k15101193






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asked yesterday









JannisJannis

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Jannis is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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put on hold as off-topic by sf02, Kozaky, gnat, OldPadawan, IDrinkandIKnowThings 9 hours ago


This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:


  • "Questions require a goal that we can address. Rather than explaining the difficulties of your situation, explain what you want to do to make it better. For more information, see this meta post." – Kozaky, gnat, OldPadawan, IDrinkandIKnowThings

If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.







put on hold as off-topic by sf02, Kozaky, gnat, OldPadawan, IDrinkandIKnowThings 9 hours ago


This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:


  • "Questions require a goal that we can address. Rather than explaining the difficulties of your situation, explain what you want to do to make it better. For more information, see this meta post." – Kozaky, gnat, OldPadawan, IDrinkandIKnowThings

If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.








  • 35





    "I was feeling sick for about 30 seconds" - do you really mean 30 seconds, or 30 minutes? 30 seconds is nothing, you probably just had some reflux.

    – David K
    yesterday






  • 41





    This may seem like an odd question, but it's pretty much analogous to asking if it's okay to take sick leave for being hungover.

    – David K
    yesterday






  • 15





    What causes you to think that making yourself ill is illegal?

    – IDrinkandIKnowThings
    yesterday






  • 18





    Welcome to this site! I would like a clarification: do you mean "getting sick on purpose by eating something" or "getting sick accidentally by eating something"

    – aaaaaa
    yesterday








  • 15





    Nothing illegal here, just ridiculous. Since this is a hypothetical question, are you really asking if you could use this pizza scheme to get a day off in the future?

    – Joe Strazzere
    yesterday
















  • 35





    "I was feeling sick for about 30 seconds" - do you really mean 30 seconds, or 30 minutes? 30 seconds is nothing, you probably just had some reflux.

    – David K
    yesterday






  • 41





    This may seem like an odd question, but it's pretty much analogous to asking if it's okay to take sick leave for being hungover.

    – David K
    yesterday






  • 15





    What causes you to think that making yourself ill is illegal?

    – IDrinkandIKnowThings
    yesterday






  • 18





    Welcome to this site! I would like a clarification: do you mean "getting sick on purpose by eating something" or "getting sick accidentally by eating something"

    – aaaaaa
    yesterday








  • 15





    Nothing illegal here, just ridiculous. Since this is a hypothetical question, are you really asking if you could use this pizza scheme to get a day off in the future?

    – Joe Strazzere
    yesterday










35




35





"I was feeling sick for about 30 seconds" - do you really mean 30 seconds, or 30 minutes? 30 seconds is nothing, you probably just had some reflux.

– David K
yesterday





"I was feeling sick for about 30 seconds" - do you really mean 30 seconds, or 30 minutes? 30 seconds is nothing, you probably just had some reflux.

– David K
yesterday




41




41





This may seem like an odd question, but it's pretty much analogous to asking if it's okay to take sick leave for being hungover.

– David K
yesterday





This may seem like an odd question, but it's pretty much analogous to asking if it's okay to take sick leave for being hungover.

– David K
yesterday




15




15





What causes you to think that making yourself ill is illegal?

– IDrinkandIKnowThings
yesterday





What causes you to think that making yourself ill is illegal?

– IDrinkandIKnowThings
yesterday




18




18





Welcome to this site! I would like a clarification: do you mean "getting sick on purpose by eating something" or "getting sick accidentally by eating something"

– aaaaaa
yesterday







Welcome to this site! I would like a clarification: do you mean "getting sick on purpose by eating something" or "getting sick accidentally by eating something"

– aaaaaa
yesterday






15




15





Nothing illegal here, just ridiculous. Since this is a hypothetical question, are you really asking if you could use this pizza scheme to get a day off in the future?

– Joe Strazzere
yesterday







Nothing illegal here, just ridiculous. Since this is a hypothetical question, are you really asking if you could use this pizza scheme to get a day off in the future?

– Joe Strazzere
yesterday












7 Answers
7






active

oldest

votes


















38














This is the first time that I've heard the claim that it is illegal to make yourself sick, and I've worked in the field of employee law in Germany for several years. I sincerely doubt that claim.



The relevant law is the EntgFG (Entgeltfortzahlungsgesetz), §3 - https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/entgfg/__3.html where it says:




(1) Wird ein Arbeitnehmer durch Arbeitsunfähigkeit infolge Krankheit
an seiner Arbeitsleistung verhindert, ohne daß ihn ein Verschulden
trifft,




The interesting part for your question is "ohne dass ihn ein Verschulden trifft" (without him being guilty). The courts clearly say here that this excludes only "grobe Fahrlässigkeit", i.e. when you are almost intentionally hurting yourself, e.g.:




  • Urteil des BAG vom 28.2.1979 – 5 AZR 611/77

  • Urteil des BAG vom 11.3.1987 – 5 AZR 739/85


Here is a text explaining a couple reasons that lead or don't lead to this:
https://www.ddniedersachsen.de/assets/messages/Anl._6_Verweigerung_der_Entgeltfortzahlung.pdf



In general, especially risky sports and getting yourself into a fight for no good reason (especially starting it) count for this.



That still doesn't make it illegal! It just means that your employer can refuse to continue paying your salary for the duration of your self-inflicted illness.



Does spicing up your food too much count as "grober Verstoss den ein verständiger Mensch nicht begehen würde" ? Well, if you completely emptied the pepper box on the pizza, probably yes. If you just added a bit too much spice - who hasn't done that? Is that in the same category as a sport that is so risky that even trained people and professionals are at a serious risk of injury? I don't think it is, but IANAL.






share|improve this answer



















  • 14





    Well I really emptied the whole pepper box ... ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    – Jannis
    17 hours ago








  • 12





    @idmean I've worked on the HR side. I received formal legal training and I've been (in my professional role) in courts many times, but I don't have a degree in jurisprudence.

    – Tom
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    I'd say it's along the same lines as accidental food poisoning because you ate something like a dairy product that was over the date, looked fine, but turned out not to be. It happens.

    – simbabque
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    I remember seeing previous answers (to other questions) that mentioned in Germany you cannot ask about an employee's sickness. If this is applicable, it would be really great to add that also - as it sounded from those posts, like the employer can't realistically find out how you got sick in the first place. (If not, or it doesn't sound right - just reply and I'll delete this comment)

    – Bilkokuya
    11 hours ago








  • 1





    The employer absolutely can ask. However, the employee does not have to answer or is legally allowed to lie (it's not in the law, but court decisions exist), except if the information is vital to the employer, e.g. it's a contagious disease or it affects the way the employee can work. From the doctor the employer will get a "Krankschreibung" - a paper saying that the employee is unable to work and for how long, but not what the illness or cause is.

    – Tom
    8 hours ago



















46














Generally speaking, if you go to a doctor and get a sick note (Arbeitsunfähigkeitsbescheinigung) then you are unfit for work. Matter of fact the name in German already says you are unfit to work. It does not pass any judgement as to why.



It's never illegal to go to a doctor and get a sick note.



In rare cases, if it can be proven that you did it on purpose or with gross negligence, the people who paid for your sick leave (in this case probably your Krankenversicherung, in case of an accident the gesetzliche Unfallversicherung) can refuse to pay or demand their already paid money back. Please note that those are serious cases. Like hitting a sign-post head-on with your car while speeding under the influence of alcohol on your way to work. That can be ruled as self-inflicted or at least gross negligence and the insurance can refuse to pay. It's still not illegal to take sick leave because the truth is that the person is not fit for work after colliding with the sign post (the DUI is another matter). But it's basically unpaid and that's costly.



Sick leave is also a protected state, you cannot be fired for being sick, not even in the above case of the DUI (although you might be fired for having a DUI on record if your job is being a driver at the company). A company might find a few phony other reasons to fire people that they think had too much sick leave though or if the person is a contract worker just not renew the contract when it runs out.



So yes, you can eat that pizza again. It's not even proven that that pizza made you sick. Now from the perspective of your boss, after the third or fourth time you have to go home sick after eating there, I would seriously question your personal judgement. But making bad decisions is not illegal.






share|improve this answer





















  • 17





    Additional note: Your employer can't ask why you're sick and you're not required to tell. Also for all you know it may have been a coincidence.

    – xyious
    yesterday






  • 3





    Additional note from experience: when you go to the doctor in Germany and get a sick note, you get 3 copies. 1 for you with everything on it, 1 for the insurance company with everything on it and 1 for your employer with nothing but the dates on it. PS: "But making bad decisions is not illegal." Dammit. If it was we could imprison most politicians.

    – Skrrp
    yesterday











  • @Skrrp: ah, same in France. The pages are actually self-copying, but they are of different length (so the employer one does not have all the details because it is shorter)

    – WoJ
    yesterday



















34














No, it is not illegal to become sick, regardless of the cause. Sick time may or may not be paid by your employer, depending on their policies.



It may not be the wisest thing to do at lunch, knowing you have work still to do afterward.






share|improve this answer



















  • 65





    There is no "depending on their policies" in Germany. Sick leave is always paid by the employer in full, who in turn is reimbursed by the persons mandatory health insurance.

    – nvoigt
    yesterday






  • 6





    Yes, but policies might restrict what 'sick leave' is. Some employers require a doctor's note, most only do for extended (over 1 or 2 days) leave. However, I don't see a doctor that wouldn't give you a note for an afternoon for virtually any reason

    – xyious
    yesterday






  • 4





    @Ghanima I'm not sure why you think my comment disagrees with my answer. I can see no discrepancy. The employer pays the sick leave, the health insurance pays the employer and the health insurance, as the entity who paid the bill in the end, might turn to the employee to get their money back if it was gross negligence. That's what my comment says, that's what my answer says.

    – nvoigt
    yesterday






  • 4





    @Ghanima The "always" in my comment here is meant to say there are no "policies" the employer could dictate. The employer has no say in this.

    – nvoigt
    yesterday






  • 5





    "Sick time may or may not be paid by your employer, depending on their policies.". No. The employer has no say in it. In rare cases, e.g. when the harm is self-inflicted, payment can be refused by the insurance provider, but this doesn't depend on policy - it depends on the law, and will in doubt be decided in court. The employer can't even decide, because they lack the necessary information. If you get an AU, no cause is given, only start and end date. For the employer to challenge this, they would have to call the AU fraudulent and take action against the doctor...

    – Polygnome
    yesterday



















5














This is not about German law, but I would GUESS probably not, otherwise where would we draw the line?



Would it be illegal to not eat healthy? Would it be illegal to care for a sick wife? Would it be illegal to consume alcohol on the weekend. These are just a few factors that can contribute to becoming sick.



Having said that, if you acted in a reckless manner that caused you to miss work, and that caused some damage to the business, that would probably be frowned upon, though not illegal.



If you endanger your own health and safety while at work, that is a different story.






share|improve this answer



















  • 5





    Is eating spiced pizza considered as reckless ?

    – Jannis
    yesterday








  • 26





    If you got back in the office and then boasted about having ghost chili on your pizza, and then got violently ill and had to leave, your boss will be disappointed, and your coworkers will think you're an idiot.

    – Gregory Currie
    yesterday






  • 4





    Like @GregroyCurrie said. Stupid an illegal are too different things. For example if you're lactose intolerant then eating a cheese cake for lunch is stupid. That does not mean it's illegal.

    – Lee Abraham
    yesterday













  • @Jannis If you knew it would cause illness, then yes, it can be considered reckless.

    – Dan
    yesterday






  • 2





    Yes.... doing it three times in a row, getting sick and leaving every time might lead to problems.

    – xyious
    yesterday



















4














In the USA, I imagine Germany too, only way it would be "illegal" is if you were contractually obligated to not be reckless or engage in reckless activities. I imagine this is for top officials such as CEOs or maybe a sports star, not common workers. Even with that clause, they typically mean something like engaging in parachuting or something with a known danger, not eating spicy food.



With that said, you may be asked to bring in a doctor's note. That wouldn't be unfair for your employer to request such thing. In the future, avoid food you know will cause illness. Not so much for work reasons but for health reasons.



I eat pizzas on a regular basis but last time I went with co-workers, we ate at this pizza shop and the spinach on mine must have been rotten or something because I got really sick afterwards. I went home and came back to work the next day. No questions or issues since that's what sick leave is for. I do not go to that pizza place any longer, though, but next time I would be more careful about what toppings I choose at the establishment.






share|improve this answer


























  • yeah, I've had contracts that explicitly stated certain sports that I wasn't supposed to engage in (free climbing, for example). It's rare but it happens.

    – jwenting
    20 hours ago











  • @jwenting: Interesting, never heard of this, except for sports professionals. And free climbing is not particularly dangerous - or did you mean free solo climbing (as in, free climbing without rope protection)?

    – sleske
    16 hours ago



















3














Did you intentionally make yourself sick for the express purpose of using sick leave? If not, then no fault exists.






share|improve this answer
























  • I could imagine that failing to avoid something you knew (from past experience) would make you sick would be a problem, even if the reason for eating it was that it tastes good. (e.g. some food that you love, but that gives you migraines.) That's getting into territory that's could be considered somewhat similar to drinking / drugs, which are well-known ways to make yourself unable to work and typically are punishable by employers.

    – Peter Cordes
    yesterday











  • That seems like a gray area. If I eat something that I know may make me too sick to work then that's foolish and possibly negligent. Is it criminally negligent? Probably not. I think intent has a lot of bearing here. If my express intent is to make myself too sick to work than that's probably a problem.

    – joeqwerty
    yesterday






  • 1





    So maybe something they could fire you over, like other employee behaviour problems? But might not be considered a breach of contract if you'd agreed to work for at least x months as part of some offer / deal? And not something they could sue you over. I don't think "criminal" is really the right word even for getting drunk before (not) coming to work; it's not breaking criminal law (unless you're a bus driver or otherwise could injure people by being negligent in your job...)

    – Peter Cordes
    yesterday











  • You cannot be fired for making yourself sick. The employer can refuse to pay sick leave, but that's it. Firing due to health reasons is only possible for conditions that are not getting better in Germany (very much simplified, but in essence).

    – Tom
    17 hours ago



















2














Clarification: I live in the UK, but our laws on sick leave area based on EU regulations, which I imagine Germany to be as well.



Getting sick from a pizza you've bought in good faith is bad luck, but hardly illegal.



If you kept eating there in order to persistently get sick, your boss might ask questions about your reasoning though. I've heard the rants of managers who got annoyed with people getting food poisoning from the same fried chicken shop for example. That particular workplace was shift work and only paid sick leave if you had a doctor's note though.



It's my experience that there's statutory sick pay, which is long term and issued by the government rather than the company, and there's company sick pay, which has a limited number of days based on length of service. Those days are full pay. If your employer suspects you're trying to milk those days then they will likely ask for evidence of the sickness either via a doctor's note or an assessment by a doctor of their choice. If that happens and you have been making yourself ill or injuring yourself on purpose, then you're busted.






share|improve this answer


























  • Good poisoning is less annoying than bad poisoning.

    – Umberto P.
    yesterday











  • Lol, that was a dyac moment

    – Sam Lee
    yesterday











  • Another way this could work is some food that you love the taste of, but that gives you migraines. Then you'll know you're going to get sick, not just that you're taking a risk. Like with drinking / drugs (other well-known ways to make yourself unable to work), that might be punishable by employers.

    – Peter Cordes
    yesterday











  • Sorry, when I wrote that, I was referring to paid sick leave. If there's reasonable proof that it was caused on purpose by the employee they will give unpaid leave.

    – Sam Lee
    18 hours ago


















7 Answers
7






active

oldest

votes








7 Answers
7






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









38














This is the first time that I've heard the claim that it is illegal to make yourself sick, and I've worked in the field of employee law in Germany for several years. I sincerely doubt that claim.



The relevant law is the EntgFG (Entgeltfortzahlungsgesetz), §3 - https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/entgfg/__3.html where it says:




(1) Wird ein Arbeitnehmer durch Arbeitsunfähigkeit infolge Krankheit
an seiner Arbeitsleistung verhindert, ohne daß ihn ein Verschulden
trifft,




The interesting part for your question is "ohne dass ihn ein Verschulden trifft" (without him being guilty). The courts clearly say here that this excludes only "grobe Fahrlässigkeit", i.e. when you are almost intentionally hurting yourself, e.g.:




  • Urteil des BAG vom 28.2.1979 – 5 AZR 611/77

  • Urteil des BAG vom 11.3.1987 – 5 AZR 739/85


Here is a text explaining a couple reasons that lead or don't lead to this:
https://www.ddniedersachsen.de/assets/messages/Anl._6_Verweigerung_der_Entgeltfortzahlung.pdf



In general, especially risky sports and getting yourself into a fight for no good reason (especially starting it) count for this.



That still doesn't make it illegal! It just means that your employer can refuse to continue paying your salary for the duration of your self-inflicted illness.



Does spicing up your food too much count as "grober Verstoss den ein verständiger Mensch nicht begehen würde" ? Well, if you completely emptied the pepper box on the pizza, probably yes. If you just added a bit too much spice - who hasn't done that? Is that in the same category as a sport that is so risky that even trained people and professionals are at a serious risk of injury? I don't think it is, but IANAL.






share|improve this answer



















  • 14





    Well I really emptied the whole pepper box ... ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    – Jannis
    17 hours ago








  • 12





    @idmean I've worked on the HR side. I received formal legal training and I've been (in my professional role) in courts many times, but I don't have a degree in jurisprudence.

    – Tom
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    I'd say it's along the same lines as accidental food poisoning because you ate something like a dairy product that was over the date, looked fine, but turned out not to be. It happens.

    – simbabque
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    I remember seeing previous answers (to other questions) that mentioned in Germany you cannot ask about an employee's sickness. If this is applicable, it would be really great to add that also - as it sounded from those posts, like the employer can't realistically find out how you got sick in the first place. (If not, or it doesn't sound right - just reply and I'll delete this comment)

    – Bilkokuya
    11 hours ago








  • 1





    The employer absolutely can ask. However, the employee does not have to answer or is legally allowed to lie (it's not in the law, but court decisions exist), except if the information is vital to the employer, e.g. it's a contagious disease or it affects the way the employee can work. From the doctor the employer will get a "Krankschreibung" - a paper saying that the employee is unable to work and for how long, but not what the illness or cause is.

    – Tom
    8 hours ago
















38














This is the first time that I've heard the claim that it is illegal to make yourself sick, and I've worked in the field of employee law in Germany for several years. I sincerely doubt that claim.



The relevant law is the EntgFG (Entgeltfortzahlungsgesetz), §3 - https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/entgfg/__3.html where it says:




(1) Wird ein Arbeitnehmer durch Arbeitsunfähigkeit infolge Krankheit
an seiner Arbeitsleistung verhindert, ohne daß ihn ein Verschulden
trifft,




The interesting part for your question is "ohne dass ihn ein Verschulden trifft" (without him being guilty). The courts clearly say here that this excludes only "grobe Fahrlässigkeit", i.e. when you are almost intentionally hurting yourself, e.g.:




  • Urteil des BAG vom 28.2.1979 – 5 AZR 611/77

  • Urteil des BAG vom 11.3.1987 – 5 AZR 739/85


Here is a text explaining a couple reasons that lead or don't lead to this:
https://www.ddniedersachsen.de/assets/messages/Anl._6_Verweigerung_der_Entgeltfortzahlung.pdf



In general, especially risky sports and getting yourself into a fight for no good reason (especially starting it) count for this.



That still doesn't make it illegal! It just means that your employer can refuse to continue paying your salary for the duration of your self-inflicted illness.



Does spicing up your food too much count as "grober Verstoss den ein verständiger Mensch nicht begehen würde" ? Well, if you completely emptied the pepper box on the pizza, probably yes. If you just added a bit too much spice - who hasn't done that? Is that in the same category as a sport that is so risky that even trained people and professionals are at a serious risk of injury? I don't think it is, but IANAL.






share|improve this answer



















  • 14





    Well I really emptied the whole pepper box ... ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    – Jannis
    17 hours ago








  • 12





    @idmean I've worked on the HR side. I received formal legal training and I've been (in my professional role) in courts many times, but I don't have a degree in jurisprudence.

    – Tom
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    I'd say it's along the same lines as accidental food poisoning because you ate something like a dairy product that was over the date, looked fine, but turned out not to be. It happens.

    – simbabque
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    I remember seeing previous answers (to other questions) that mentioned in Germany you cannot ask about an employee's sickness. If this is applicable, it would be really great to add that also - as it sounded from those posts, like the employer can't realistically find out how you got sick in the first place. (If not, or it doesn't sound right - just reply and I'll delete this comment)

    – Bilkokuya
    11 hours ago








  • 1





    The employer absolutely can ask. However, the employee does not have to answer or is legally allowed to lie (it's not in the law, but court decisions exist), except if the information is vital to the employer, e.g. it's a contagious disease or it affects the way the employee can work. From the doctor the employer will get a "Krankschreibung" - a paper saying that the employee is unable to work and for how long, but not what the illness or cause is.

    – Tom
    8 hours ago














38












38








38







This is the first time that I've heard the claim that it is illegal to make yourself sick, and I've worked in the field of employee law in Germany for several years. I sincerely doubt that claim.



The relevant law is the EntgFG (Entgeltfortzahlungsgesetz), §3 - https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/entgfg/__3.html where it says:




(1) Wird ein Arbeitnehmer durch Arbeitsunfähigkeit infolge Krankheit
an seiner Arbeitsleistung verhindert, ohne daß ihn ein Verschulden
trifft,




The interesting part for your question is "ohne dass ihn ein Verschulden trifft" (without him being guilty). The courts clearly say here that this excludes only "grobe Fahrlässigkeit", i.e. when you are almost intentionally hurting yourself, e.g.:




  • Urteil des BAG vom 28.2.1979 – 5 AZR 611/77

  • Urteil des BAG vom 11.3.1987 – 5 AZR 739/85


Here is a text explaining a couple reasons that lead or don't lead to this:
https://www.ddniedersachsen.de/assets/messages/Anl._6_Verweigerung_der_Entgeltfortzahlung.pdf



In general, especially risky sports and getting yourself into a fight for no good reason (especially starting it) count for this.



That still doesn't make it illegal! It just means that your employer can refuse to continue paying your salary for the duration of your self-inflicted illness.



Does spicing up your food too much count as "grober Verstoss den ein verständiger Mensch nicht begehen würde" ? Well, if you completely emptied the pepper box on the pizza, probably yes. If you just added a bit too much spice - who hasn't done that? Is that in the same category as a sport that is so risky that even trained people and professionals are at a serious risk of injury? I don't think it is, but IANAL.






share|improve this answer













This is the first time that I've heard the claim that it is illegal to make yourself sick, and I've worked in the field of employee law in Germany for several years. I sincerely doubt that claim.



The relevant law is the EntgFG (Entgeltfortzahlungsgesetz), §3 - https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/entgfg/__3.html where it says:




(1) Wird ein Arbeitnehmer durch Arbeitsunfähigkeit infolge Krankheit
an seiner Arbeitsleistung verhindert, ohne daß ihn ein Verschulden
trifft,




The interesting part for your question is "ohne dass ihn ein Verschulden trifft" (without him being guilty). The courts clearly say here that this excludes only "grobe Fahrlässigkeit", i.e. when you are almost intentionally hurting yourself, e.g.:




  • Urteil des BAG vom 28.2.1979 – 5 AZR 611/77

  • Urteil des BAG vom 11.3.1987 – 5 AZR 739/85


Here is a text explaining a couple reasons that lead or don't lead to this:
https://www.ddniedersachsen.de/assets/messages/Anl._6_Verweigerung_der_Entgeltfortzahlung.pdf



In general, especially risky sports and getting yourself into a fight for no good reason (especially starting it) count for this.



That still doesn't make it illegal! It just means that your employer can refuse to continue paying your salary for the duration of your self-inflicted illness.



Does spicing up your food too much count as "grober Verstoss den ein verständiger Mensch nicht begehen würde" ? Well, if you completely emptied the pepper box on the pizza, probably yes. If you just added a bit too much spice - who hasn't done that? Is that in the same category as a sport that is so risky that even trained people and professionals are at a serious risk of injury? I don't think it is, but IANAL.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 18 hours ago









TomTom

5,3461322




5,3461322








  • 14





    Well I really emptied the whole pepper box ... ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    – Jannis
    17 hours ago








  • 12





    @idmean I've worked on the HR side. I received formal legal training and I've been (in my professional role) in courts many times, but I don't have a degree in jurisprudence.

    – Tom
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    I'd say it's along the same lines as accidental food poisoning because you ate something like a dairy product that was over the date, looked fine, but turned out not to be. It happens.

    – simbabque
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    I remember seeing previous answers (to other questions) that mentioned in Germany you cannot ask about an employee's sickness. If this is applicable, it would be really great to add that also - as it sounded from those posts, like the employer can't realistically find out how you got sick in the first place. (If not, or it doesn't sound right - just reply and I'll delete this comment)

    – Bilkokuya
    11 hours ago








  • 1





    The employer absolutely can ask. However, the employee does not have to answer or is legally allowed to lie (it's not in the law, but court decisions exist), except if the information is vital to the employer, e.g. it's a contagious disease or it affects the way the employee can work. From the doctor the employer will get a "Krankschreibung" - a paper saying that the employee is unable to work and for how long, but not what the illness or cause is.

    – Tom
    8 hours ago














  • 14





    Well I really emptied the whole pepper box ... ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    – Jannis
    17 hours ago








  • 12





    @idmean I've worked on the HR side. I received formal legal training and I've been (in my professional role) in courts many times, but I don't have a degree in jurisprudence.

    – Tom
    15 hours ago






  • 1





    I'd say it's along the same lines as accidental food poisoning because you ate something like a dairy product that was over the date, looked fine, but turned out not to be. It happens.

    – simbabque
    14 hours ago






  • 1





    I remember seeing previous answers (to other questions) that mentioned in Germany you cannot ask about an employee's sickness. If this is applicable, it would be really great to add that also - as it sounded from those posts, like the employer can't realistically find out how you got sick in the first place. (If not, or it doesn't sound right - just reply and I'll delete this comment)

    – Bilkokuya
    11 hours ago








  • 1





    The employer absolutely can ask. However, the employee does not have to answer or is legally allowed to lie (it's not in the law, but court decisions exist), except if the information is vital to the employer, e.g. it's a contagious disease or it affects the way the employee can work. From the doctor the employer will get a "Krankschreibung" - a paper saying that the employee is unable to work and for how long, but not what the illness or cause is.

    – Tom
    8 hours ago








14




14





Well I really emptied the whole pepper box ... ¯_(ツ)_/¯

– Jannis
17 hours ago







Well I really emptied the whole pepper box ... ¯_(ツ)_/¯

– Jannis
17 hours ago






12




12





@idmean I've worked on the HR side. I received formal legal training and I've been (in my professional role) in courts many times, but I don't have a degree in jurisprudence.

– Tom
15 hours ago





@idmean I've worked on the HR side. I received formal legal training and I've been (in my professional role) in courts many times, but I don't have a degree in jurisprudence.

– Tom
15 hours ago




1




1





I'd say it's along the same lines as accidental food poisoning because you ate something like a dairy product that was over the date, looked fine, but turned out not to be. It happens.

– simbabque
14 hours ago





I'd say it's along the same lines as accidental food poisoning because you ate something like a dairy product that was over the date, looked fine, but turned out not to be. It happens.

– simbabque
14 hours ago




1




1





I remember seeing previous answers (to other questions) that mentioned in Germany you cannot ask about an employee's sickness. If this is applicable, it would be really great to add that also - as it sounded from those posts, like the employer can't realistically find out how you got sick in the first place. (If not, or it doesn't sound right - just reply and I'll delete this comment)

– Bilkokuya
11 hours ago







I remember seeing previous answers (to other questions) that mentioned in Germany you cannot ask about an employee's sickness. If this is applicable, it would be really great to add that also - as it sounded from those posts, like the employer can't realistically find out how you got sick in the first place. (If not, or it doesn't sound right - just reply and I'll delete this comment)

– Bilkokuya
11 hours ago






1




1





The employer absolutely can ask. However, the employee does not have to answer or is legally allowed to lie (it's not in the law, but court decisions exist), except if the information is vital to the employer, e.g. it's a contagious disease or it affects the way the employee can work. From the doctor the employer will get a "Krankschreibung" - a paper saying that the employee is unable to work and for how long, but not what the illness or cause is.

– Tom
8 hours ago





The employer absolutely can ask. However, the employee does not have to answer or is legally allowed to lie (it's not in the law, but court decisions exist), except if the information is vital to the employer, e.g. it's a contagious disease or it affects the way the employee can work. From the doctor the employer will get a "Krankschreibung" - a paper saying that the employee is unable to work and for how long, but not what the illness or cause is.

– Tom
8 hours ago













46














Generally speaking, if you go to a doctor and get a sick note (Arbeitsunfähigkeitsbescheinigung) then you are unfit for work. Matter of fact the name in German already says you are unfit to work. It does not pass any judgement as to why.



It's never illegal to go to a doctor and get a sick note.



In rare cases, if it can be proven that you did it on purpose or with gross negligence, the people who paid for your sick leave (in this case probably your Krankenversicherung, in case of an accident the gesetzliche Unfallversicherung) can refuse to pay or demand their already paid money back. Please note that those are serious cases. Like hitting a sign-post head-on with your car while speeding under the influence of alcohol on your way to work. That can be ruled as self-inflicted or at least gross negligence and the insurance can refuse to pay. It's still not illegal to take sick leave because the truth is that the person is not fit for work after colliding with the sign post (the DUI is another matter). But it's basically unpaid and that's costly.



Sick leave is also a protected state, you cannot be fired for being sick, not even in the above case of the DUI (although you might be fired for having a DUI on record if your job is being a driver at the company). A company might find a few phony other reasons to fire people that they think had too much sick leave though or if the person is a contract worker just not renew the contract when it runs out.



So yes, you can eat that pizza again. It's not even proven that that pizza made you sick. Now from the perspective of your boss, after the third or fourth time you have to go home sick after eating there, I would seriously question your personal judgement. But making bad decisions is not illegal.






share|improve this answer





















  • 17





    Additional note: Your employer can't ask why you're sick and you're not required to tell. Also for all you know it may have been a coincidence.

    – xyious
    yesterday






  • 3





    Additional note from experience: when you go to the doctor in Germany and get a sick note, you get 3 copies. 1 for you with everything on it, 1 for the insurance company with everything on it and 1 for your employer with nothing but the dates on it. PS: "But making bad decisions is not illegal." Dammit. If it was we could imprison most politicians.

    – Skrrp
    yesterday











  • @Skrrp: ah, same in France. The pages are actually self-copying, but they are of different length (so the employer one does not have all the details because it is shorter)

    – WoJ
    yesterday
















46














Generally speaking, if you go to a doctor and get a sick note (Arbeitsunfähigkeitsbescheinigung) then you are unfit for work. Matter of fact the name in German already says you are unfit to work. It does not pass any judgement as to why.



It's never illegal to go to a doctor and get a sick note.



In rare cases, if it can be proven that you did it on purpose or with gross negligence, the people who paid for your sick leave (in this case probably your Krankenversicherung, in case of an accident the gesetzliche Unfallversicherung) can refuse to pay or demand their already paid money back. Please note that those are serious cases. Like hitting a sign-post head-on with your car while speeding under the influence of alcohol on your way to work. That can be ruled as self-inflicted or at least gross negligence and the insurance can refuse to pay. It's still not illegal to take sick leave because the truth is that the person is not fit for work after colliding with the sign post (the DUI is another matter). But it's basically unpaid and that's costly.



Sick leave is also a protected state, you cannot be fired for being sick, not even in the above case of the DUI (although you might be fired for having a DUI on record if your job is being a driver at the company). A company might find a few phony other reasons to fire people that they think had too much sick leave though or if the person is a contract worker just not renew the contract when it runs out.



So yes, you can eat that pizza again. It's not even proven that that pizza made you sick. Now from the perspective of your boss, after the third or fourth time you have to go home sick after eating there, I would seriously question your personal judgement. But making bad decisions is not illegal.






share|improve this answer





















  • 17





    Additional note: Your employer can't ask why you're sick and you're not required to tell. Also for all you know it may have been a coincidence.

    – xyious
    yesterday






  • 3





    Additional note from experience: when you go to the doctor in Germany and get a sick note, you get 3 copies. 1 for you with everything on it, 1 for the insurance company with everything on it and 1 for your employer with nothing but the dates on it. PS: "But making bad decisions is not illegal." Dammit. If it was we could imprison most politicians.

    – Skrrp
    yesterday











  • @Skrrp: ah, same in France. The pages are actually self-copying, but they are of different length (so the employer one does not have all the details because it is shorter)

    – WoJ
    yesterday














46












46








46







Generally speaking, if you go to a doctor and get a sick note (Arbeitsunfähigkeitsbescheinigung) then you are unfit for work. Matter of fact the name in German already says you are unfit to work. It does not pass any judgement as to why.



It's never illegal to go to a doctor and get a sick note.



In rare cases, if it can be proven that you did it on purpose or with gross negligence, the people who paid for your sick leave (in this case probably your Krankenversicherung, in case of an accident the gesetzliche Unfallversicherung) can refuse to pay or demand their already paid money back. Please note that those are serious cases. Like hitting a sign-post head-on with your car while speeding under the influence of alcohol on your way to work. That can be ruled as self-inflicted or at least gross negligence and the insurance can refuse to pay. It's still not illegal to take sick leave because the truth is that the person is not fit for work after colliding with the sign post (the DUI is another matter). But it's basically unpaid and that's costly.



Sick leave is also a protected state, you cannot be fired for being sick, not even in the above case of the DUI (although you might be fired for having a DUI on record if your job is being a driver at the company). A company might find a few phony other reasons to fire people that they think had too much sick leave though or if the person is a contract worker just not renew the contract when it runs out.



So yes, you can eat that pizza again. It's not even proven that that pizza made you sick. Now from the perspective of your boss, after the third or fourth time you have to go home sick after eating there, I would seriously question your personal judgement. But making bad decisions is not illegal.






share|improve this answer















Generally speaking, if you go to a doctor and get a sick note (Arbeitsunfähigkeitsbescheinigung) then you are unfit for work. Matter of fact the name in German already says you are unfit to work. It does not pass any judgement as to why.



It's never illegal to go to a doctor and get a sick note.



In rare cases, if it can be proven that you did it on purpose or with gross negligence, the people who paid for your sick leave (in this case probably your Krankenversicherung, in case of an accident the gesetzliche Unfallversicherung) can refuse to pay or demand their already paid money back. Please note that those are serious cases. Like hitting a sign-post head-on with your car while speeding under the influence of alcohol on your way to work. That can be ruled as self-inflicted or at least gross negligence and the insurance can refuse to pay. It's still not illegal to take sick leave because the truth is that the person is not fit for work after colliding with the sign post (the DUI is another matter). But it's basically unpaid and that's costly.



Sick leave is also a protected state, you cannot be fired for being sick, not even in the above case of the DUI (although you might be fired for having a DUI on record if your job is being a driver at the company). A company might find a few phony other reasons to fire people that they think had too much sick leave though or if the person is a contract worker just not renew the contract when it runs out.



So yes, you can eat that pizza again. It's not even proven that that pizza made you sick. Now from the perspective of your boss, after the third or fourth time you have to go home sick after eating there, I would seriously question your personal judgement. But making bad decisions is not illegal.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 19 hours ago

























answered yesterday









nvoigtnvoigt

51k23123167




51k23123167








  • 17





    Additional note: Your employer can't ask why you're sick and you're not required to tell. Also for all you know it may have been a coincidence.

    – xyious
    yesterday






  • 3





    Additional note from experience: when you go to the doctor in Germany and get a sick note, you get 3 copies. 1 for you with everything on it, 1 for the insurance company with everything on it and 1 for your employer with nothing but the dates on it. PS: "But making bad decisions is not illegal." Dammit. If it was we could imprison most politicians.

    – Skrrp
    yesterday











  • @Skrrp: ah, same in France. The pages are actually self-copying, but they are of different length (so the employer one does not have all the details because it is shorter)

    – WoJ
    yesterday














  • 17





    Additional note: Your employer can't ask why you're sick and you're not required to tell. Also for all you know it may have been a coincidence.

    – xyious
    yesterday






  • 3





    Additional note from experience: when you go to the doctor in Germany and get a sick note, you get 3 copies. 1 for you with everything on it, 1 for the insurance company with everything on it and 1 for your employer with nothing but the dates on it. PS: "But making bad decisions is not illegal." Dammit. If it was we could imprison most politicians.

    – Skrrp
    yesterday











  • @Skrrp: ah, same in France. The pages are actually self-copying, but they are of different length (so the employer one does not have all the details because it is shorter)

    – WoJ
    yesterday








17




17





Additional note: Your employer can't ask why you're sick and you're not required to tell. Also for all you know it may have been a coincidence.

– xyious
yesterday





Additional note: Your employer can't ask why you're sick and you're not required to tell. Also for all you know it may have been a coincidence.

– xyious
yesterday




3




3





Additional note from experience: when you go to the doctor in Germany and get a sick note, you get 3 copies. 1 for you with everything on it, 1 for the insurance company with everything on it and 1 for your employer with nothing but the dates on it. PS: "But making bad decisions is not illegal." Dammit. If it was we could imprison most politicians.

– Skrrp
yesterday





Additional note from experience: when you go to the doctor in Germany and get a sick note, you get 3 copies. 1 for you with everything on it, 1 for the insurance company with everything on it and 1 for your employer with nothing but the dates on it. PS: "But making bad decisions is not illegal." Dammit. If it was we could imprison most politicians.

– Skrrp
yesterday













@Skrrp: ah, same in France. The pages are actually self-copying, but they are of different length (so the employer one does not have all the details because it is shorter)

– WoJ
yesterday





@Skrrp: ah, same in France. The pages are actually self-copying, but they are of different length (so the employer one does not have all the details because it is shorter)

– WoJ
yesterday











34














No, it is not illegal to become sick, regardless of the cause. Sick time may or may not be paid by your employer, depending on their policies.



It may not be the wisest thing to do at lunch, knowing you have work still to do afterward.






share|improve this answer



















  • 65





    There is no "depending on their policies" in Germany. Sick leave is always paid by the employer in full, who in turn is reimbursed by the persons mandatory health insurance.

    – nvoigt
    yesterday






  • 6





    Yes, but policies might restrict what 'sick leave' is. Some employers require a doctor's note, most only do for extended (over 1 or 2 days) leave. However, I don't see a doctor that wouldn't give you a note for an afternoon for virtually any reason

    – xyious
    yesterday






  • 4





    @Ghanima I'm not sure why you think my comment disagrees with my answer. I can see no discrepancy. The employer pays the sick leave, the health insurance pays the employer and the health insurance, as the entity who paid the bill in the end, might turn to the employee to get their money back if it was gross negligence. That's what my comment says, that's what my answer says.

    – nvoigt
    yesterday






  • 4





    @Ghanima The "always" in my comment here is meant to say there are no "policies" the employer could dictate. The employer has no say in this.

    – nvoigt
    yesterday






  • 5





    "Sick time may or may not be paid by your employer, depending on their policies.". No. The employer has no say in it. In rare cases, e.g. when the harm is self-inflicted, payment can be refused by the insurance provider, but this doesn't depend on policy - it depends on the law, and will in doubt be decided in court. The employer can't even decide, because they lack the necessary information. If you get an AU, no cause is given, only start and end date. For the employer to challenge this, they would have to call the AU fraudulent and take action against the doctor...

    – Polygnome
    yesterday
















34














No, it is not illegal to become sick, regardless of the cause. Sick time may or may not be paid by your employer, depending on their policies.



It may not be the wisest thing to do at lunch, knowing you have work still to do afterward.






share|improve this answer



















  • 65





    There is no "depending on their policies" in Germany. Sick leave is always paid by the employer in full, who in turn is reimbursed by the persons mandatory health insurance.

    – nvoigt
    yesterday






  • 6





    Yes, but policies might restrict what 'sick leave' is. Some employers require a doctor's note, most only do for extended (over 1 or 2 days) leave. However, I don't see a doctor that wouldn't give you a note for an afternoon for virtually any reason

    – xyious
    yesterday






  • 4





    @Ghanima I'm not sure why you think my comment disagrees with my answer. I can see no discrepancy. The employer pays the sick leave, the health insurance pays the employer and the health insurance, as the entity who paid the bill in the end, might turn to the employee to get their money back if it was gross negligence. That's what my comment says, that's what my answer says.

    – nvoigt
    yesterday






  • 4





    @Ghanima The "always" in my comment here is meant to say there are no "policies" the employer could dictate. The employer has no say in this.

    – nvoigt
    yesterday






  • 5





    "Sick time may or may not be paid by your employer, depending on their policies.". No. The employer has no say in it. In rare cases, e.g. when the harm is self-inflicted, payment can be refused by the insurance provider, but this doesn't depend on policy - it depends on the law, and will in doubt be decided in court. The employer can't even decide, because they lack the necessary information. If you get an AU, no cause is given, only start and end date. For the employer to challenge this, they would have to call the AU fraudulent and take action against the doctor...

    – Polygnome
    yesterday














34












34








34







No, it is not illegal to become sick, regardless of the cause. Sick time may or may not be paid by your employer, depending on their policies.



It may not be the wisest thing to do at lunch, knowing you have work still to do afterward.






share|improve this answer













No, it is not illegal to become sick, regardless of the cause. Sick time may or may not be paid by your employer, depending on their policies.



It may not be the wisest thing to do at lunch, knowing you have work still to do afterward.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered yesterday









Kent A.Kent A.

20.9k96181




20.9k96181








  • 65





    There is no "depending on their policies" in Germany. Sick leave is always paid by the employer in full, who in turn is reimbursed by the persons mandatory health insurance.

    – nvoigt
    yesterday






  • 6





    Yes, but policies might restrict what 'sick leave' is. Some employers require a doctor's note, most only do for extended (over 1 or 2 days) leave. However, I don't see a doctor that wouldn't give you a note for an afternoon for virtually any reason

    – xyious
    yesterday






  • 4





    @Ghanima I'm not sure why you think my comment disagrees with my answer. I can see no discrepancy. The employer pays the sick leave, the health insurance pays the employer and the health insurance, as the entity who paid the bill in the end, might turn to the employee to get their money back if it was gross negligence. That's what my comment says, that's what my answer says.

    – nvoigt
    yesterday






  • 4





    @Ghanima The "always" in my comment here is meant to say there are no "policies" the employer could dictate. The employer has no say in this.

    – nvoigt
    yesterday






  • 5





    "Sick time may or may not be paid by your employer, depending on their policies.". No. The employer has no say in it. In rare cases, e.g. when the harm is self-inflicted, payment can be refused by the insurance provider, but this doesn't depend on policy - it depends on the law, and will in doubt be decided in court. The employer can't even decide, because they lack the necessary information. If you get an AU, no cause is given, only start and end date. For the employer to challenge this, they would have to call the AU fraudulent and take action against the doctor...

    – Polygnome
    yesterday














  • 65





    There is no "depending on their policies" in Germany. Sick leave is always paid by the employer in full, who in turn is reimbursed by the persons mandatory health insurance.

    – nvoigt
    yesterday






  • 6





    Yes, but policies might restrict what 'sick leave' is. Some employers require a doctor's note, most only do for extended (over 1 or 2 days) leave. However, I don't see a doctor that wouldn't give you a note for an afternoon for virtually any reason

    – xyious
    yesterday






  • 4





    @Ghanima I'm not sure why you think my comment disagrees with my answer. I can see no discrepancy. The employer pays the sick leave, the health insurance pays the employer and the health insurance, as the entity who paid the bill in the end, might turn to the employee to get their money back if it was gross negligence. That's what my comment says, that's what my answer says.

    – nvoigt
    yesterday






  • 4





    @Ghanima The "always" in my comment here is meant to say there are no "policies" the employer could dictate. The employer has no say in this.

    – nvoigt
    yesterday






  • 5





    "Sick time may or may not be paid by your employer, depending on their policies.". No. The employer has no say in it. In rare cases, e.g. when the harm is self-inflicted, payment can be refused by the insurance provider, but this doesn't depend on policy - it depends on the law, and will in doubt be decided in court. The employer can't even decide, because they lack the necessary information. If you get an AU, no cause is given, only start and end date. For the employer to challenge this, they would have to call the AU fraudulent and take action against the doctor...

    – Polygnome
    yesterday








65




65





There is no "depending on their policies" in Germany. Sick leave is always paid by the employer in full, who in turn is reimbursed by the persons mandatory health insurance.

– nvoigt
yesterday





There is no "depending on their policies" in Germany. Sick leave is always paid by the employer in full, who in turn is reimbursed by the persons mandatory health insurance.

– nvoigt
yesterday




6




6





Yes, but policies might restrict what 'sick leave' is. Some employers require a doctor's note, most only do for extended (over 1 or 2 days) leave. However, I don't see a doctor that wouldn't give you a note for an afternoon for virtually any reason

– xyious
yesterday





Yes, but policies might restrict what 'sick leave' is. Some employers require a doctor's note, most only do for extended (over 1 or 2 days) leave. However, I don't see a doctor that wouldn't give you a note for an afternoon for virtually any reason

– xyious
yesterday




4




4





@Ghanima I'm not sure why you think my comment disagrees with my answer. I can see no discrepancy. The employer pays the sick leave, the health insurance pays the employer and the health insurance, as the entity who paid the bill in the end, might turn to the employee to get their money back if it was gross negligence. That's what my comment says, that's what my answer says.

– nvoigt
yesterday





@Ghanima I'm not sure why you think my comment disagrees with my answer. I can see no discrepancy. The employer pays the sick leave, the health insurance pays the employer and the health insurance, as the entity who paid the bill in the end, might turn to the employee to get their money back if it was gross negligence. That's what my comment says, that's what my answer says.

– nvoigt
yesterday




4




4





@Ghanima The "always" in my comment here is meant to say there are no "policies" the employer could dictate. The employer has no say in this.

– nvoigt
yesterday





@Ghanima The "always" in my comment here is meant to say there are no "policies" the employer could dictate. The employer has no say in this.

– nvoigt
yesterday




5




5





"Sick time may or may not be paid by your employer, depending on their policies.". No. The employer has no say in it. In rare cases, e.g. when the harm is self-inflicted, payment can be refused by the insurance provider, but this doesn't depend on policy - it depends on the law, and will in doubt be decided in court. The employer can't even decide, because they lack the necessary information. If you get an AU, no cause is given, only start and end date. For the employer to challenge this, they would have to call the AU fraudulent and take action against the doctor...

– Polygnome
yesterday





"Sick time may or may not be paid by your employer, depending on their policies.". No. The employer has no say in it. In rare cases, e.g. when the harm is self-inflicted, payment can be refused by the insurance provider, but this doesn't depend on policy - it depends on the law, and will in doubt be decided in court. The employer can't even decide, because they lack the necessary information. If you get an AU, no cause is given, only start and end date. For the employer to challenge this, they would have to call the AU fraudulent and take action against the doctor...

– Polygnome
yesterday











5














This is not about German law, but I would GUESS probably not, otherwise where would we draw the line?



Would it be illegal to not eat healthy? Would it be illegal to care for a sick wife? Would it be illegal to consume alcohol on the weekend. These are just a few factors that can contribute to becoming sick.



Having said that, if you acted in a reckless manner that caused you to miss work, and that caused some damage to the business, that would probably be frowned upon, though not illegal.



If you endanger your own health and safety while at work, that is a different story.






share|improve this answer



















  • 5





    Is eating spiced pizza considered as reckless ?

    – Jannis
    yesterday








  • 26





    If you got back in the office and then boasted about having ghost chili on your pizza, and then got violently ill and had to leave, your boss will be disappointed, and your coworkers will think you're an idiot.

    – Gregory Currie
    yesterday






  • 4





    Like @GregroyCurrie said. Stupid an illegal are too different things. For example if you're lactose intolerant then eating a cheese cake for lunch is stupid. That does not mean it's illegal.

    – Lee Abraham
    yesterday













  • @Jannis If you knew it would cause illness, then yes, it can be considered reckless.

    – Dan
    yesterday






  • 2





    Yes.... doing it three times in a row, getting sick and leaving every time might lead to problems.

    – xyious
    yesterday
















5














This is not about German law, but I would GUESS probably not, otherwise where would we draw the line?



Would it be illegal to not eat healthy? Would it be illegal to care for a sick wife? Would it be illegal to consume alcohol on the weekend. These are just a few factors that can contribute to becoming sick.



Having said that, if you acted in a reckless manner that caused you to miss work, and that caused some damage to the business, that would probably be frowned upon, though not illegal.



If you endanger your own health and safety while at work, that is a different story.






share|improve this answer



















  • 5





    Is eating spiced pizza considered as reckless ?

    – Jannis
    yesterday








  • 26





    If you got back in the office and then boasted about having ghost chili on your pizza, and then got violently ill and had to leave, your boss will be disappointed, and your coworkers will think you're an idiot.

    – Gregory Currie
    yesterday






  • 4





    Like @GregroyCurrie said. Stupid an illegal are too different things. For example if you're lactose intolerant then eating a cheese cake for lunch is stupid. That does not mean it's illegal.

    – Lee Abraham
    yesterday













  • @Jannis If you knew it would cause illness, then yes, it can be considered reckless.

    – Dan
    yesterday






  • 2





    Yes.... doing it three times in a row, getting sick and leaving every time might lead to problems.

    – xyious
    yesterday














5












5








5







This is not about German law, but I would GUESS probably not, otherwise where would we draw the line?



Would it be illegal to not eat healthy? Would it be illegal to care for a sick wife? Would it be illegal to consume alcohol on the weekend. These are just a few factors that can contribute to becoming sick.



Having said that, if you acted in a reckless manner that caused you to miss work, and that caused some damage to the business, that would probably be frowned upon, though not illegal.



If you endanger your own health and safety while at work, that is a different story.






share|improve this answer













This is not about German law, but I would GUESS probably not, otherwise where would we draw the line?



Would it be illegal to not eat healthy? Would it be illegal to care for a sick wife? Would it be illegal to consume alcohol on the weekend. These are just a few factors that can contribute to becoming sick.



Having said that, if you acted in a reckless manner that caused you to miss work, and that caused some damage to the business, that would probably be frowned upon, though not illegal.



If you endanger your own health and safety while at work, that is a different story.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered yesterday









Gregory CurrieGregory Currie

1,3971614




1,3971614








  • 5





    Is eating spiced pizza considered as reckless ?

    – Jannis
    yesterday








  • 26





    If you got back in the office and then boasted about having ghost chili on your pizza, and then got violently ill and had to leave, your boss will be disappointed, and your coworkers will think you're an idiot.

    – Gregory Currie
    yesterday






  • 4





    Like @GregroyCurrie said. Stupid an illegal are too different things. For example if you're lactose intolerant then eating a cheese cake for lunch is stupid. That does not mean it's illegal.

    – Lee Abraham
    yesterday













  • @Jannis If you knew it would cause illness, then yes, it can be considered reckless.

    – Dan
    yesterday






  • 2





    Yes.... doing it three times in a row, getting sick and leaving every time might lead to problems.

    – xyious
    yesterday














  • 5





    Is eating spiced pizza considered as reckless ?

    – Jannis
    yesterday








  • 26





    If you got back in the office and then boasted about having ghost chili on your pizza, and then got violently ill and had to leave, your boss will be disappointed, and your coworkers will think you're an idiot.

    – Gregory Currie
    yesterday






  • 4





    Like @GregroyCurrie said. Stupid an illegal are too different things. For example if you're lactose intolerant then eating a cheese cake for lunch is stupid. That does not mean it's illegal.

    – Lee Abraham
    yesterday













  • @Jannis If you knew it would cause illness, then yes, it can be considered reckless.

    – Dan
    yesterday






  • 2





    Yes.... doing it three times in a row, getting sick and leaving every time might lead to problems.

    – xyious
    yesterday








5




5





Is eating spiced pizza considered as reckless ?

– Jannis
yesterday







Is eating spiced pizza considered as reckless ?

– Jannis
yesterday






26




26





If you got back in the office and then boasted about having ghost chili on your pizza, and then got violently ill and had to leave, your boss will be disappointed, and your coworkers will think you're an idiot.

– Gregory Currie
yesterday





If you got back in the office and then boasted about having ghost chili on your pizza, and then got violently ill and had to leave, your boss will be disappointed, and your coworkers will think you're an idiot.

– Gregory Currie
yesterday




4




4





Like @GregroyCurrie said. Stupid an illegal are too different things. For example if you're lactose intolerant then eating a cheese cake for lunch is stupid. That does not mean it's illegal.

– Lee Abraham
yesterday







Like @GregroyCurrie said. Stupid an illegal are too different things. For example if you're lactose intolerant then eating a cheese cake for lunch is stupid. That does not mean it's illegal.

– Lee Abraham
yesterday















@Jannis If you knew it would cause illness, then yes, it can be considered reckless.

– Dan
yesterday





@Jannis If you knew it would cause illness, then yes, it can be considered reckless.

– Dan
yesterday




2




2





Yes.... doing it three times in a row, getting sick and leaving every time might lead to problems.

– xyious
yesterday





Yes.... doing it three times in a row, getting sick and leaving every time might lead to problems.

– xyious
yesterday











4














In the USA, I imagine Germany too, only way it would be "illegal" is if you were contractually obligated to not be reckless or engage in reckless activities. I imagine this is for top officials such as CEOs or maybe a sports star, not common workers. Even with that clause, they typically mean something like engaging in parachuting or something with a known danger, not eating spicy food.



With that said, you may be asked to bring in a doctor's note. That wouldn't be unfair for your employer to request such thing. In the future, avoid food you know will cause illness. Not so much for work reasons but for health reasons.



I eat pizzas on a regular basis but last time I went with co-workers, we ate at this pizza shop and the spinach on mine must have been rotten or something because I got really sick afterwards. I went home and came back to work the next day. No questions or issues since that's what sick leave is for. I do not go to that pizza place any longer, though, but next time I would be more careful about what toppings I choose at the establishment.






share|improve this answer


























  • yeah, I've had contracts that explicitly stated certain sports that I wasn't supposed to engage in (free climbing, for example). It's rare but it happens.

    – jwenting
    20 hours ago











  • @jwenting: Interesting, never heard of this, except for sports professionals. And free climbing is not particularly dangerous - or did you mean free solo climbing (as in, free climbing without rope protection)?

    – sleske
    16 hours ago
















4














In the USA, I imagine Germany too, only way it would be "illegal" is if you were contractually obligated to not be reckless or engage in reckless activities. I imagine this is for top officials such as CEOs or maybe a sports star, not common workers. Even with that clause, they typically mean something like engaging in parachuting or something with a known danger, not eating spicy food.



With that said, you may be asked to bring in a doctor's note. That wouldn't be unfair for your employer to request such thing. In the future, avoid food you know will cause illness. Not so much for work reasons but for health reasons.



I eat pizzas on a regular basis but last time I went with co-workers, we ate at this pizza shop and the spinach on mine must have been rotten or something because I got really sick afterwards. I went home and came back to work the next day. No questions or issues since that's what sick leave is for. I do not go to that pizza place any longer, though, but next time I would be more careful about what toppings I choose at the establishment.






share|improve this answer


























  • yeah, I've had contracts that explicitly stated certain sports that I wasn't supposed to engage in (free climbing, for example). It's rare but it happens.

    – jwenting
    20 hours ago











  • @jwenting: Interesting, never heard of this, except for sports professionals. And free climbing is not particularly dangerous - or did you mean free solo climbing (as in, free climbing without rope protection)?

    – sleske
    16 hours ago














4












4








4







In the USA, I imagine Germany too, only way it would be "illegal" is if you were contractually obligated to not be reckless or engage in reckless activities. I imagine this is for top officials such as CEOs or maybe a sports star, not common workers. Even with that clause, they typically mean something like engaging in parachuting or something with a known danger, not eating spicy food.



With that said, you may be asked to bring in a doctor's note. That wouldn't be unfair for your employer to request such thing. In the future, avoid food you know will cause illness. Not so much for work reasons but for health reasons.



I eat pizzas on a regular basis but last time I went with co-workers, we ate at this pizza shop and the spinach on mine must have been rotten or something because I got really sick afterwards. I went home and came back to work the next day. No questions or issues since that's what sick leave is for. I do not go to that pizza place any longer, though, but next time I would be more careful about what toppings I choose at the establishment.






share|improve this answer















In the USA, I imagine Germany too, only way it would be "illegal" is if you were contractually obligated to not be reckless or engage in reckless activities. I imagine this is for top officials such as CEOs or maybe a sports star, not common workers. Even with that clause, they typically mean something like engaging in parachuting or something with a known danger, not eating spicy food.



With that said, you may be asked to bring in a doctor's note. That wouldn't be unfair for your employer to request such thing. In the future, avoid food you know will cause illness. Not so much for work reasons but for health reasons.



I eat pizzas on a regular basis but last time I went with co-workers, we ate at this pizza shop and the spinach on mine must have been rotten or something because I got really sick afterwards. I went home and came back to work the next day. No questions or issues since that's what sick leave is for. I do not go to that pizza place any longer, though, but next time I would be more careful about what toppings I choose at the establishment.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited yesterday

























answered yesterday









DanDan

9,69731733




9,69731733













  • yeah, I've had contracts that explicitly stated certain sports that I wasn't supposed to engage in (free climbing, for example). It's rare but it happens.

    – jwenting
    20 hours ago











  • @jwenting: Interesting, never heard of this, except for sports professionals. And free climbing is not particularly dangerous - or did you mean free solo climbing (as in, free climbing without rope protection)?

    – sleske
    16 hours ago



















  • yeah, I've had contracts that explicitly stated certain sports that I wasn't supposed to engage in (free climbing, for example). It's rare but it happens.

    – jwenting
    20 hours ago











  • @jwenting: Interesting, never heard of this, except for sports professionals. And free climbing is not particularly dangerous - or did you mean free solo climbing (as in, free climbing without rope protection)?

    – sleske
    16 hours ago

















yeah, I've had contracts that explicitly stated certain sports that I wasn't supposed to engage in (free climbing, for example). It's rare but it happens.

– jwenting
20 hours ago





yeah, I've had contracts that explicitly stated certain sports that I wasn't supposed to engage in (free climbing, for example). It's rare but it happens.

– jwenting
20 hours ago













@jwenting: Interesting, never heard of this, except for sports professionals. And free climbing is not particularly dangerous - or did you mean free solo climbing (as in, free climbing without rope protection)?

– sleske
16 hours ago





@jwenting: Interesting, never heard of this, except for sports professionals. And free climbing is not particularly dangerous - or did you mean free solo climbing (as in, free climbing without rope protection)?

– sleske
16 hours ago











3














Did you intentionally make yourself sick for the express purpose of using sick leave? If not, then no fault exists.






share|improve this answer
























  • I could imagine that failing to avoid something you knew (from past experience) would make you sick would be a problem, even if the reason for eating it was that it tastes good. (e.g. some food that you love, but that gives you migraines.) That's getting into territory that's could be considered somewhat similar to drinking / drugs, which are well-known ways to make yourself unable to work and typically are punishable by employers.

    – Peter Cordes
    yesterday











  • That seems like a gray area. If I eat something that I know may make me too sick to work then that's foolish and possibly negligent. Is it criminally negligent? Probably not. I think intent has a lot of bearing here. If my express intent is to make myself too sick to work than that's probably a problem.

    – joeqwerty
    yesterday






  • 1





    So maybe something they could fire you over, like other employee behaviour problems? But might not be considered a breach of contract if you'd agreed to work for at least x months as part of some offer / deal? And not something they could sue you over. I don't think "criminal" is really the right word even for getting drunk before (not) coming to work; it's not breaking criminal law (unless you're a bus driver or otherwise could injure people by being negligent in your job...)

    – Peter Cordes
    yesterday











  • You cannot be fired for making yourself sick. The employer can refuse to pay sick leave, but that's it. Firing due to health reasons is only possible for conditions that are not getting better in Germany (very much simplified, but in essence).

    – Tom
    17 hours ago
















3














Did you intentionally make yourself sick for the express purpose of using sick leave? If not, then no fault exists.






share|improve this answer
























  • I could imagine that failing to avoid something you knew (from past experience) would make you sick would be a problem, even if the reason for eating it was that it tastes good. (e.g. some food that you love, but that gives you migraines.) That's getting into territory that's could be considered somewhat similar to drinking / drugs, which are well-known ways to make yourself unable to work and typically are punishable by employers.

    – Peter Cordes
    yesterday











  • That seems like a gray area. If I eat something that I know may make me too sick to work then that's foolish and possibly negligent. Is it criminally negligent? Probably not. I think intent has a lot of bearing here. If my express intent is to make myself too sick to work than that's probably a problem.

    – joeqwerty
    yesterday






  • 1





    So maybe something they could fire you over, like other employee behaviour problems? But might not be considered a breach of contract if you'd agreed to work for at least x months as part of some offer / deal? And not something they could sue you over. I don't think "criminal" is really the right word even for getting drunk before (not) coming to work; it's not breaking criminal law (unless you're a bus driver or otherwise could injure people by being negligent in your job...)

    – Peter Cordes
    yesterday











  • You cannot be fired for making yourself sick. The employer can refuse to pay sick leave, but that's it. Firing due to health reasons is only possible for conditions that are not getting better in Germany (very much simplified, but in essence).

    – Tom
    17 hours ago














3












3








3







Did you intentionally make yourself sick for the express purpose of using sick leave? If not, then no fault exists.






share|improve this answer













Did you intentionally make yourself sick for the express purpose of using sick leave? If not, then no fault exists.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered yesterday









joeqwertyjoeqwerty

1,208412




1,208412













  • I could imagine that failing to avoid something you knew (from past experience) would make you sick would be a problem, even if the reason for eating it was that it tastes good. (e.g. some food that you love, but that gives you migraines.) That's getting into territory that's could be considered somewhat similar to drinking / drugs, which are well-known ways to make yourself unable to work and typically are punishable by employers.

    – Peter Cordes
    yesterday











  • That seems like a gray area. If I eat something that I know may make me too sick to work then that's foolish and possibly negligent. Is it criminally negligent? Probably not. I think intent has a lot of bearing here. If my express intent is to make myself too sick to work than that's probably a problem.

    – joeqwerty
    yesterday






  • 1





    So maybe something they could fire you over, like other employee behaviour problems? But might not be considered a breach of contract if you'd agreed to work for at least x months as part of some offer / deal? And not something they could sue you over. I don't think "criminal" is really the right word even for getting drunk before (not) coming to work; it's not breaking criminal law (unless you're a bus driver or otherwise could injure people by being negligent in your job...)

    – Peter Cordes
    yesterday











  • You cannot be fired for making yourself sick. The employer can refuse to pay sick leave, but that's it. Firing due to health reasons is only possible for conditions that are not getting better in Germany (very much simplified, but in essence).

    – Tom
    17 hours ago



















  • I could imagine that failing to avoid something you knew (from past experience) would make you sick would be a problem, even if the reason for eating it was that it tastes good. (e.g. some food that you love, but that gives you migraines.) That's getting into territory that's could be considered somewhat similar to drinking / drugs, which are well-known ways to make yourself unable to work and typically are punishable by employers.

    – Peter Cordes
    yesterday











  • That seems like a gray area. If I eat something that I know may make me too sick to work then that's foolish and possibly negligent. Is it criminally negligent? Probably not. I think intent has a lot of bearing here. If my express intent is to make myself too sick to work than that's probably a problem.

    – joeqwerty
    yesterday






  • 1





    So maybe something they could fire you over, like other employee behaviour problems? But might not be considered a breach of contract if you'd agreed to work for at least x months as part of some offer / deal? And not something they could sue you over. I don't think "criminal" is really the right word even for getting drunk before (not) coming to work; it's not breaking criminal law (unless you're a bus driver or otherwise could injure people by being negligent in your job...)

    – Peter Cordes
    yesterday











  • You cannot be fired for making yourself sick. The employer can refuse to pay sick leave, but that's it. Firing due to health reasons is only possible for conditions that are not getting better in Germany (very much simplified, but in essence).

    – Tom
    17 hours ago

















I could imagine that failing to avoid something you knew (from past experience) would make you sick would be a problem, even if the reason for eating it was that it tastes good. (e.g. some food that you love, but that gives you migraines.) That's getting into territory that's could be considered somewhat similar to drinking / drugs, which are well-known ways to make yourself unable to work and typically are punishable by employers.

– Peter Cordes
yesterday





I could imagine that failing to avoid something you knew (from past experience) would make you sick would be a problem, even if the reason for eating it was that it tastes good. (e.g. some food that you love, but that gives you migraines.) That's getting into territory that's could be considered somewhat similar to drinking / drugs, which are well-known ways to make yourself unable to work and typically are punishable by employers.

– Peter Cordes
yesterday













That seems like a gray area. If I eat something that I know may make me too sick to work then that's foolish and possibly negligent. Is it criminally negligent? Probably not. I think intent has a lot of bearing here. If my express intent is to make myself too sick to work than that's probably a problem.

– joeqwerty
yesterday





That seems like a gray area. If I eat something that I know may make me too sick to work then that's foolish and possibly negligent. Is it criminally negligent? Probably not. I think intent has a lot of bearing here. If my express intent is to make myself too sick to work than that's probably a problem.

– joeqwerty
yesterday




1




1





So maybe something they could fire you over, like other employee behaviour problems? But might not be considered a breach of contract if you'd agreed to work for at least x months as part of some offer / deal? And not something they could sue you over. I don't think "criminal" is really the right word even for getting drunk before (not) coming to work; it's not breaking criminal law (unless you're a bus driver or otherwise could injure people by being negligent in your job...)

– Peter Cordes
yesterday





So maybe something they could fire you over, like other employee behaviour problems? But might not be considered a breach of contract if you'd agreed to work for at least x months as part of some offer / deal? And not something they could sue you over. I don't think "criminal" is really the right word even for getting drunk before (not) coming to work; it's not breaking criminal law (unless you're a bus driver or otherwise could injure people by being negligent in your job...)

– Peter Cordes
yesterday













You cannot be fired for making yourself sick. The employer can refuse to pay sick leave, but that's it. Firing due to health reasons is only possible for conditions that are not getting better in Germany (very much simplified, but in essence).

– Tom
17 hours ago





You cannot be fired for making yourself sick. The employer can refuse to pay sick leave, but that's it. Firing due to health reasons is only possible for conditions that are not getting better in Germany (very much simplified, but in essence).

– Tom
17 hours ago











2














Clarification: I live in the UK, but our laws on sick leave area based on EU regulations, which I imagine Germany to be as well.



Getting sick from a pizza you've bought in good faith is bad luck, but hardly illegal.



If you kept eating there in order to persistently get sick, your boss might ask questions about your reasoning though. I've heard the rants of managers who got annoyed with people getting food poisoning from the same fried chicken shop for example. That particular workplace was shift work and only paid sick leave if you had a doctor's note though.



It's my experience that there's statutory sick pay, which is long term and issued by the government rather than the company, and there's company sick pay, which has a limited number of days based on length of service. Those days are full pay. If your employer suspects you're trying to milk those days then they will likely ask for evidence of the sickness either via a doctor's note or an assessment by a doctor of their choice. If that happens and you have been making yourself ill or injuring yourself on purpose, then you're busted.






share|improve this answer


























  • Good poisoning is less annoying than bad poisoning.

    – Umberto P.
    yesterday











  • Lol, that was a dyac moment

    – Sam Lee
    yesterday











  • Another way this could work is some food that you love the taste of, but that gives you migraines. Then you'll know you're going to get sick, not just that you're taking a risk. Like with drinking / drugs (other well-known ways to make yourself unable to work), that might be punishable by employers.

    – Peter Cordes
    yesterday











  • Sorry, when I wrote that, I was referring to paid sick leave. If there's reasonable proof that it was caused on purpose by the employee they will give unpaid leave.

    – Sam Lee
    18 hours ago
















2














Clarification: I live in the UK, but our laws on sick leave area based on EU regulations, which I imagine Germany to be as well.



Getting sick from a pizza you've bought in good faith is bad luck, but hardly illegal.



If you kept eating there in order to persistently get sick, your boss might ask questions about your reasoning though. I've heard the rants of managers who got annoyed with people getting food poisoning from the same fried chicken shop for example. That particular workplace was shift work and only paid sick leave if you had a doctor's note though.



It's my experience that there's statutory sick pay, which is long term and issued by the government rather than the company, and there's company sick pay, which has a limited number of days based on length of service. Those days are full pay. If your employer suspects you're trying to milk those days then they will likely ask for evidence of the sickness either via a doctor's note or an assessment by a doctor of their choice. If that happens and you have been making yourself ill or injuring yourself on purpose, then you're busted.






share|improve this answer


























  • Good poisoning is less annoying than bad poisoning.

    – Umberto P.
    yesterday











  • Lol, that was a dyac moment

    – Sam Lee
    yesterday











  • Another way this could work is some food that you love the taste of, but that gives you migraines. Then you'll know you're going to get sick, not just that you're taking a risk. Like with drinking / drugs (other well-known ways to make yourself unable to work), that might be punishable by employers.

    – Peter Cordes
    yesterday











  • Sorry, when I wrote that, I was referring to paid sick leave. If there's reasonable proof that it was caused on purpose by the employee they will give unpaid leave.

    – Sam Lee
    18 hours ago














2












2








2







Clarification: I live in the UK, but our laws on sick leave area based on EU regulations, which I imagine Germany to be as well.



Getting sick from a pizza you've bought in good faith is bad luck, but hardly illegal.



If you kept eating there in order to persistently get sick, your boss might ask questions about your reasoning though. I've heard the rants of managers who got annoyed with people getting food poisoning from the same fried chicken shop for example. That particular workplace was shift work and only paid sick leave if you had a doctor's note though.



It's my experience that there's statutory sick pay, which is long term and issued by the government rather than the company, and there's company sick pay, which has a limited number of days based on length of service. Those days are full pay. If your employer suspects you're trying to milk those days then they will likely ask for evidence of the sickness either via a doctor's note or an assessment by a doctor of their choice. If that happens and you have been making yourself ill or injuring yourself on purpose, then you're busted.






share|improve this answer















Clarification: I live in the UK, but our laws on sick leave area based on EU regulations, which I imagine Germany to be as well.



Getting sick from a pizza you've bought in good faith is bad luck, but hardly illegal.



If you kept eating there in order to persistently get sick, your boss might ask questions about your reasoning though. I've heard the rants of managers who got annoyed with people getting food poisoning from the same fried chicken shop for example. That particular workplace was shift work and only paid sick leave if you had a doctor's note though.



It's my experience that there's statutory sick pay, which is long term and issued by the government rather than the company, and there's company sick pay, which has a limited number of days based on length of service. Those days are full pay. If your employer suspects you're trying to milk those days then they will likely ask for evidence of the sickness either via a doctor's note or an assessment by a doctor of their choice. If that happens and you have been making yourself ill or injuring yourself on purpose, then you're busted.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 18 hours ago

























answered yesterday









Sam LeeSam Lee

1895




1895













  • Good poisoning is less annoying than bad poisoning.

    – Umberto P.
    yesterday











  • Lol, that was a dyac moment

    – Sam Lee
    yesterday











  • Another way this could work is some food that you love the taste of, but that gives you migraines. Then you'll know you're going to get sick, not just that you're taking a risk. Like with drinking / drugs (other well-known ways to make yourself unable to work), that might be punishable by employers.

    – Peter Cordes
    yesterday











  • Sorry, when I wrote that, I was referring to paid sick leave. If there's reasonable proof that it was caused on purpose by the employee they will give unpaid leave.

    – Sam Lee
    18 hours ago



















  • Good poisoning is less annoying than bad poisoning.

    – Umberto P.
    yesterday











  • Lol, that was a dyac moment

    – Sam Lee
    yesterday











  • Another way this could work is some food that you love the taste of, but that gives you migraines. Then you'll know you're going to get sick, not just that you're taking a risk. Like with drinking / drugs (other well-known ways to make yourself unable to work), that might be punishable by employers.

    – Peter Cordes
    yesterday











  • Sorry, when I wrote that, I was referring to paid sick leave. If there's reasonable proof that it was caused on purpose by the employee they will give unpaid leave.

    – Sam Lee
    18 hours ago

















Good poisoning is less annoying than bad poisoning.

– Umberto P.
yesterday





Good poisoning is less annoying than bad poisoning.

– Umberto P.
yesterday













Lol, that was a dyac moment

– Sam Lee
yesterday





Lol, that was a dyac moment

– Sam Lee
yesterday













Another way this could work is some food that you love the taste of, but that gives you migraines. Then you'll know you're going to get sick, not just that you're taking a risk. Like with drinking / drugs (other well-known ways to make yourself unable to work), that might be punishable by employers.

– Peter Cordes
yesterday





Another way this could work is some food that you love the taste of, but that gives you migraines. Then you'll know you're going to get sick, not just that you're taking a risk. Like with drinking / drugs (other well-known ways to make yourself unable to work), that might be punishable by employers.

– Peter Cordes
yesterday













Sorry, when I wrote that, I was referring to paid sick leave. If there's reasonable proof that it was caused on purpose by the employee they will give unpaid leave.

– Sam Lee
18 hours ago





Sorry, when I wrote that, I was referring to paid sick leave. If there's reasonable proof that it was caused on purpose by the employee they will give unpaid leave.

– Sam Lee
18 hours ago



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