Why does 'swings and roundabouts' mean 'gains and losses that offset each other'?
I know "swings and roundabouts" means "gains and losses that offset each other", but I can't understand. Any story behind this?
idioms
add a comment |
I know "swings and roundabouts" means "gains and losses that offset each other", but I can't understand. Any story behind this?
idioms
4
The strange thing is that both swings and roundabouts return to where they started (unlike, say, a slide) but this is not part of the meaning of the phrase.
– Henry
Dec 21 '14 at 20:49
@Henry: you were onto something, I think, and this certainly IS part of the meaning of the phrase!
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 15:04
interestingliterature.com/2015/09/03/…
– Kris
Feb 14 '16 at 15:13
Related: What is the English equivalent to the Chinese/Japanese saying, “塞翁失馬— Life is like Old Sai’s horse”?
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:26
FWIW, "roundabouts and swings", apparently in the sense of a street fair, goes back to 1829. "Swings and roundabouts", in the same sense, goes back to 1803.
– Hot Licks
Feb 14 '16 at 22:40
add a comment |
I know "swings and roundabouts" means "gains and losses that offset each other", but I can't understand. Any story behind this?
idioms
I know "swings and roundabouts" means "gains and losses that offset each other", but I can't understand. Any story behind this?
idioms
idioms
asked Dec 21 '14 at 13:08
bydskybydsky
151114
151114
4
The strange thing is that both swings and roundabouts return to where they started (unlike, say, a slide) but this is not part of the meaning of the phrase.
– Henry
Dec 21 '14 at 20:49
@Henry: you were onto something, I think, and this certainly IS part of the meaning of the phrase!
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 15:04
interestingliterature.com/2015/09/03/…
– Kris
Feb 14 '16 at 15:13
Related: What is the English equivalent to the Chinese/Japanese saying, “塞翁失馬— Life is like Old Sai’s horse”?
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:26
FWIW, "roundabouts and swings", apparently in the sense of a street fair, goes back to 1829. "Swings and roundabouts", in the same sense, goes back to 1803.
– Hot Licks
Feb 14 '16 at 22:40
add a comment |
4
The strange thing is that both swings and roundabouts return to where they started (unlike, say, a slide) but this is not part of the meaning of the phrase.
– Henry
Dec 21 '14 at 20:49
@Henry: you were onto something, I think, and this certainly IS part of the meaning of the phrase!
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 15:04
interestingliterature.com/2015/09/03/…
– Kris
Feb 14 '16 at 15:13
Related: What is the English equivalent to the Chinese/Japanese saying, “塞翁失馬— Life is like Old Sai’s horse”?
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:26
FWIW, "roundabouts and swings", apparently in the sense of a street fair, goes back to 1829. "Swings and roundabouts", in the same sense, goes back to 1803.
– Hot Licks
Feb 14 '16 at 22:40
4
4
The strange thing is that both swings and roundabouts return to where they started (unlike, say, a slide) but this is not part of the meaning of the phrase.
– Henry
Dec 21 '14 at 20:49
The strange thing is that both swings and roundabouts return to where they started (unlike, say, a slide) but this is not part of the meaning of the phrase.
– Henry
Dec 21 '14 at 20:49
@Henry: you were onto something, I think, and this certainly IS part of the meaning of the phrase!
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 15:04
@Henry: you were onto something, I think, and this certainly IS part of the meaning of the phrase!
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 15:04
interestingliterature.com/2015/09/03/…
– Kris
Feb 14 '16 at 15:13
interestingliterature.com/2015/09/03/…
– Kris
Feb 14 '16 at 15:13
Related: What is the English equivalent to the Chinese/Japanese saying, “塞翁失馬— Life is like Old Sai’s horse”?
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:26
Related: What is the English equivalent to the Chinese/Japanese saying, “塞翁失馬— Life is like Old Sai’s horse”?
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:26
FWIW, "roundabouts and swings", apparently in the sense of a street fair, goes back to 1829. "Swings and roundabouts", in the same sense, goes back to 1803.
– Hot Licks
Feb 14 '16 at 22:40
FWIW, "roundabouts and swings", apparently in the sense of a street fair, goes back to 1829. "Swings and roundabouts", in the same sense, goes back to 1803.
– Hot Licks
Feb 14 '16 at 22:40
add a comment |
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
When children play at the park, their time on the swings for unexpected reasons may be curtailed so they are allowed extra time on the roundabouts. So what they lost on the swings they gained on the roundabouts.
The metaphor is in wide use in Britain for almost any instance where one needs to point out some compensatory effect that has taken place.
The breakfast was poor in the hotel but there was a sumptuous supper. So what we lost on the swings...
It is all explained by the Free Dictionary
1
Do you always lose on the swings and gain on the roundabouts, or can it be the other way round?
– Rand al'Thor
Dec 21 '14 at 17:45
@randal'thor - Good question. I'd say you could reverse it for effect (slightly changing the familiar format in order to draw more attention to the specifics of the situation you are describing). Of course, when people extemporize in speech they frequently mangle set phrases and expressions, so tweaking the metaphor might be more effective on the page than when it comes out of one's mouth.
– Erik Kowal
Dec 21 '14 at 21:38
1
@randal'thor Try: 'what you lose on the zip wire, you gain on the bouncy castle'!
– WS2
Dec 21 '14 at 21:41
4
'What you eat on the concourse, you lose on the roundabouts.'
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 21 '14 at 23:31
4
I didn't think it was about children playing, but about fairground owners who offered both swings and roundabouts as paying rides. Reduced takings on one was compensated by increased takings on the other.
– DJClayworth
Feb 14 '16 at 20:13
|
show 4 more comments
The full expression is
What you lose on the swings, you make up for on the roundabouts.
Its origin is from the fairground. For whatever reason, the fairground owner may be losing money on the swings, but gaining it on the roundabouts. So the situation is balanced.
For example:
"They're giving everyone a pay rise, but now we're all expected to work longer hours. So, swings and roundabouts, really..."
It's closely related to the other expression
Six of one and half a dozen of the other
which also means that two things are roughly equal when all the pros and cons are totted up. However, this one is more likely to be used when you're weighing up the situation, before a decision is made:
"If I get the first train, I'll arrive too early and have to wait, but if I get the next train, it will be really full with all the commuters. It's six of one and half a dozen of the other."
1
I am intrigued by your description of the fairground origin of the term. Would you be able to point to any particular source that mentions it?
– Erik Kowal
Dec 21 '14 at 21:33
@ErikKowal See my comment at OP.
– Kris
Feb 14 '16 at 15:15
add a comment |
I have just read the poem "Roundabouts and Swings" written by Patrick R. Chalmers and published in 1912, which user 160355 mentions.
http://allpoetry.com/Roundabouts-and-Swings
The third and fourth lines in the second stanza, where the 'Pharaoh' (gypsy/gipsy) answers the question
"'ow d'you find things go?"
with
"I find […] things very much as 'ow I've always found, / For mostly they goes up and down or else goes round and round."
confirm what I intuited (before having a look at the website below):
on the swings or see-saws, what the person at one end of the plank or beam gains (height, here), the other loses in equal amount, whereas on roundabouts or merry-go-rounds everybody remains on the same level.
A bit subtler than gaining on one machine what you lost on the other!
You get by anyway, with ups and downs at times, and with nothing changing much at other times.
The third and last stanza ends with the line
An' losses on the roundabouts means profits on the swings!
The same machines are used again, in a less graphic manner, no longer to do with the way they move: the idea is of a bad investment (roundabouts, expensive machines to buy and work?) and a good investment (swings, inexpensive 'machines', worked by the users themselves?), one making up for the other… a mind doing the splits between poetry and banking?! (the poet, Irish, was a banker in London, after all…)
http://interestingliterature/2015/09/03/the-interesting-origins-of-the-phrase-swings-and-roundabouts/
a link to the poem?
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 15:20
Isn't it obvious?! No one else has bothered to post a link... Don't forget to cite the year it was written.
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:21
the problem with my contention is that the author of the poem himself clouds the issue! seems to say that merry-go-rounds make him lose money (a complicated machine, expensive to work) whereas swings make up for it (simple machines, for the working of which the users provide the energy themsleves!), reinterpreting what meant something different at first
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 16:18
In fairgrounds customers are willing to pay to go on the roundabouts and on the swings. Some days the owner makes more money on the roundabouts, but on others he makes more money on the swings. You can never be sure what rides the paying public will prefer from one day to the next; likewise "life" is unpredictable, whatever advantage you lose you may later regain, sooner or later.
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 22:51
add a comment |
The expression comes from the poem "Roundabouts and Swings" by Patrick R Chalmers. The poet was an Irish banker who worked in London around 1900.
It's about an encounter with a gypsy (Pharoe) traveling show. It's a great poem!
It was early last September nigh to Framlin'am-on-Sea,
An' 'twas
Fair-day come to-morrow, an' the time was after tea,
An' I met a
painted caravan adown a dusty lane,
A Pharaoh with his waggons comin'
jolt an' creak an' strain;
A cheery cove an' sunburnt, bold o' eye and
wrinkled up,
An' beside him on the splashboard sat a brindled tarrier
pup,
An' a lurcher wise as Solomon an' lean as fiddle-strings
Was
joggin' in the dust along 'is roundabouts and swings.
"Goo'-day," said 'e; "Goo'-day," said I; "an' 'ow d'you find things
go,
An' what's the chance o' millions when you runs a travellin'
show?"
"I find," said 'e, "things very much as 'ow I've always found,
For mostly they goes up and down or else goes round and round."
Said
'e, "The job's the very spit o' what it always were,
It's bread and
bacon mostly when the dog don't catch a 'are;
But lookin' at it broad,
an' while it ain't no merchant king's,
What's lost upon the
roundabouts we pulls up on the swings!"
"Goo' luck," said 'e; "Goo' luck," said I; "you've put it past a
doubt;
An' keep that lurcher on the road, the gamekeepers is out."
'E
thumped upon the footboard an' 'e lumbered on again
To meet a
gold-dust sunset down the owl-light in the lane;
An' the moon she
climbed the 'azels, while a night-jar seemed to spin
That Pharaoh's
wisdom o'er again, 'is sooth of lose-and-win;
For "up an' down an'
round," said 'e, "goes all appointed things,
An' losses on the
roundabouts means profits on the swings!"
(allpoetry.com)
Welcome to English Language & Usage. Your post doesn't answer the question and reads more like a comment. Please make sure that you take the tour and visit our help center for additional guidance. You can post a comment when you have more than 50 reputation points.
– user140086
Feb 14 '16 at 7:06
2
Good answers should be self-contained. Instead of asking the OP to Google a poem, why not cite a verse from the poem, provide a link to the page which, you believe, is the most helpful?
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:15
apparently, this is not the origin of the expression: english.stackexchange.com/questions/169134/…
– sumelic
Feb 24 '16 at 22:43
add a comment |
It goes back to the fairground meaning the man could lose money on a swing but gain money on the roundabout
New contributor
1
Nearly every answer has this piece of information, but @starplusplus's answer is one of the clearest. Its origin is from the fairground. For whatever reason, the fairground owner may be losing money on the swings, but gaining it on the roundabouts. So the situation is balanced.
– Mari-Lou A
10 hours ago
Hi Lynnette, welcome to English Stackexchange. This question was asked and answered in 2014 (4 years ago). It's worth taking a look at the most recent date before answering a question. I have been caught out too and answered a question that was very old. Please don't be disheartened by this and take a look at some of the more recent questions.
– GoodJuJu
8 hours ago
add a comment |
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5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
When children play at the park, their time on the swings for unexpected reasons may be curtailed so they are allowed extra time on the roundabouts. So what they lost on the swings they gained on the roundabouts.
The metaphor is in wide use in Britain for almost any instance where one needs to point out some compensatory effect that has taken place.
The breakfast was poor in the hotel but there was a sumptuous supper. So what we lost on the swings...
It is all explained by the Free Dictionary
1
Do you always lose on the swings and gain on the roundabouts, or can it be the other way round?
– Rand al'Thor
Dec 21 '14 at 17:45
@randal'thor - Good question. I'd say you could reverse it for effect (slightly changing the familiar format in order to draw more attention to the specifics of the situation you are describing). Of course, when people extemporize in speech they frequently mangle set phrases and expressions, so tweaking the metaphor might be more effective on the page than when it comes out of one's mouth.
– Erik Kowal
Dec 21 '14 at 21:38
1
@randal'thor Try: 'what you lose on the zip wire, you gain on the bouncy castle'!
– WS2
Dec 21 '14 at 21:41
4
'What you eat on the concourse, you lose on the roundabouts.'
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 21 '14 at 23:31
4
I didn't think it was about children playing, but about fairground owners who offered both swings and roundabouts as paying rides. Reduced takings on one was compensated by increased takings on the other.
– DJClayworth
Feb 14 '16 at 20:13
|
show 4 more comments
When children play at the park, their time on the swings for unexpected reasons may be curtailed so they are allowed extra time on the roundabouts. So what they lost on the swings they gained on the roundabouts.
The metaphor is in wide use in Britain for almost any instance where one needs to point out some compensatory effect that has taken place.
The breakfast was poor in the hotel but there was a sumptuous supper. So what we lost on the swings...
It is all explained by the Free Dictionary
1
Do you always lose on the swings and gain on the roundabouts, or can it be the other way round?
– Rand al'Thor
Dec 21 '14 at 17:45
@randal'thor - Good question. I'd say you could reverse it for effect (slightly changing the familiar format in order to draw more attention to the specifics of the situation you are describing). Of course, when people extemporize in speech they frequently mangle set phrases and expressions, so tweaking the metaphor might be more effective on the page than when it comes out of one's mouth.
– Erik Kowal
Dec 21 '14 at 21:38
1
@randal'thor Try: 'what you lose on the zip wire, you gain on the bouncy castle'!
– WS2
Dec 21 '14 at 21:41
4
'What you eat on the concourse, you lose on the roundabouts.'
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 21 '14 at 23:31
4
I didn't think it was about children playing, but about fairground owners who offered both swings and roundabouts as paying rides. Reduced takings on one was compensated by increased takings on the other.
– DJClayworth
Feb 14 '16 at 20:13
|
show 4 more comments
When children play at the park, their time on the swings for unexpected reasons may be curtailed so they are allowed extra time on the roundabouts. So what they lost on the swings they gained on the roundabouts.
The metaphor is in wide use in Britain for almost any instance where one needs to point out some compensatory effect that has taken place.
The breakfast was poor in the hotel but there was a sumptuous supper. So what we lost on the swings...
It is all explained by the Free Dictionary
When children play at the park, their time on the swings for unexpected reasons may be curtailed so they are allowed extra time on the roundabouts. So what they lost on the swings they gained on the roundabouts.
The metaphor is in wide use in Britain for almost any instance where one needs to point out some compensatory effect that has taken place.
The breakfast was poor in the hotel but there was a sumptuous supper. So what we lost on the swings...
It is all explained by the Free Dictionary
edited Feb 14 '16 at 18:50
answered Dec 21 '14 at 13:30
WS2WS2
52.3k28117249
52.3k28117249
1
Do you always lose on the swings and gain on the roundabouts, or can it be the other way round?
– Rand al'Thor
Dec 21 '14 at 17:45
@randal'thor - Good question. I'd say you could reverse it for effect (slightly changing the familiar format in order to draw more attention to the specifics of the situation you are describing). Of course, when people extemporize in speech they frequently mangle set phrases and expressions, so tweaking the metaphor might be more effective on the page than when it comes out of one's mouth.
– Erik Kowal
Dec 21 '14 at 21:38
1
@randal'thor Try: 'what you lose on the zip wire, you gain on the bouncy castle'!
– WS2
Dec 21 '14 at 21:41
4
'What you eat on the concourse, you lose on the roundabouts.'
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 21 '14 at 23:31
4
I didn't think it was about children playing, but about fairground owners who offered both swings and roundabouts as paying rides. Reduced takings on one was compensated by increased takings on the other.
– DJClayworth
Feb 14 '16 at 20:13
|
show 4 more comments
1
Do you always lose on the swings and gain on the roundabouts, or can it be the other way round?
– Rand al'Thor
Dec 21 '14 at 17:45
@randal'thor - Good question. I'd say you could reverse it for effect (slightly changing the familiar format in order to draw more attention to the specifics of the situation you are describing). Of course, when people extemporize in speech they frequently mangle set phrases and expressions, so tweaking the metaphor might be more effective on the page than when it comes out of one's mouth.
– Erik Kowal
Dec 21 '14 at 21:38
1
@randal'thor Try: 'what you lose on the zip wire, you gain on the bouncy castle'!
– WS2
Dec 21 '14 at 21:41
4
'What you eat on the concourse, you lose on the roundabouts.'
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 21 '14 at 23:31
4
I didn't think it was about children playing, but about fairground owners who offered both swings and roundabouts as paying rides. Reduced takings on one was compensated by increased takings on the other.
– DJClayworth
Feb 14 '16 at 20:13
1
1
Do you always lose on the swings and gain on the roundabouts, or can it be the other way round?
– Rand al'Thor
Dec 21 '14 at 17:45
Do you always lose on the swings and gain on the roundabouts, or can it be the other way round?
– Rand al'Thor
Dec 21 '14 at 17:45
@randal'thor - Good question. I'd say you could reverse it for effect (slightly changing the familiar format in order to draw more attention to the specifics of the situation you are describing). Of course, when people extemporize in speech they frequently mangle set phrases and expressions, so tweaking the metaphor might be more effective on the page than when it comes out of one's mouth.
– Erik Kowal
Dec 21 '14 at 21:38
@randal'thor - Good question. I'd say you could reverse it for effect (slightly changing the familiar format in order to draw more attention to the specifics of the situation you are describing). Of course, when people extemporize in speech they frequently mangle set phrases and expressions, so tweaking the metaphor might be more effective on the page than when it comes out of one's mouth.
– Erik Kowal
Dec 21 '14 at 21:38
1
1
@randal'thor Try: 'what you lose on the zip wire, you gain on the bouncy castle'!
– WS2
Dec 21 '14 at 21:41
@randal'thor Try: 'what you lose on the zip wire, you gain on the bouncy castle'!
– WS2
Dec 21 '14 at 21:41
4
4
'What you eat on the concourse, you lose on the roundabouts.'
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 21 '14 at 23:31
'What you eat on the concourse, you lose on the roundabouts.'
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 21 '14 at 23:31
4
4
I didn't think it was about children playing, but about fairground owners who offered both swings and roundabouts as paying rides. Reduced takings on one was compensated by increased takings on the other.
– DJClayworth
Feb 14 '16 at 20:13
I didn't think it was about children playing, but about fairground owners who offered both swings and roundabouts as paying rides. Reduced takings on one was compensated by increased takings on the other.
– DJClayworth
Feb 14 '16 at 20:13
|
show 4 more comments
The full expression is
What you lose on the swings, you make up for on the roundabouts.
Its origin is from the fairground. For whatever reason, the fairground owner may be losing money on the swings, but gaining it on the roundabouts. So the situation is balanced.
For example:
"They're giving everyone a pay rise, but now we're all expected to work longer hours. So, swings and roundabouts, really..."
It's closely related to the other expression
Six of one and half a dozen of the other
which also means that two things are roughly equal when all the pros and cons are totted up. However, this one is more likely to be used when you're weighing up the situation, before a decision is made:
"If I get the first train, I'll arrive too early and have to wait, but if I get the next train, it will be really full with all the commuters. It's six of one and half a dozen of the other."
1
I am intrigued by your description of the fairground origin of the term. Would you be able to point to any particular source that mentions it?
– Erik Kowal
Dec 21 '14 at 21:33
@ErikKowal See my comment at OP.
– Kris
Feb 14 '16 at 15:15
add a comment |
The full expression is
What you lose on the swings, you make up for on the roundabouts.
Its origin is from the fairground. For whatever reason, the fairground owner may be losing money on the swings, but gaining it on the roundabouts. So the situation is balanced.
For example:
"They're giving everyone a pay rise, but now we're all expected to work longer hours. So, swings and roundabouts, really..."
It's closely related to the other expression
Six of one and half a dozen of the other
which also means that two things are roughly equal when all the pros and cons are totted up. However, this one is more likely to be used when you're weighing up the situation, before a decision is made:
"If I get the first train, I'll arrive too early and have to wait, but if I get the next train, it will be really full with all the commuters. It's six of one and half a dozen of the other."
1
I am intrigued by your description of the fairground origin of the term. Would you be able to point to any particular source that mentions it?
– Erik Kowal
Dec 21 '14 at 21:33
@ErikKowal See my comment at OP.
– Kris
Feb 14 '16 at 15:15
add a comment |
The full expression is
What you lose on the swings, you make up for on the roundabouts.
Its origin is from the fairground. For whatever reason, the fairground owner may be losing money on the swings, but gaining it on the roundabouts. So the situation is balanced.
For example:
"They're giving everyone a pay rise, but now we're all expected to work longer hours. So, swings and roundabouts, really..."
It's closely related to the other expression
Six of one and half a dozen of the other
which also means that two things are roughly equal when all the pros and cons are totted up. However, this one is more likely to be used when you're weighing up the situation, before a decision is made:
"If I get the first train, I'll arrive too early and have to wait, but if I get the next train, it will be really full with all the commuters. It's six of one and half a dozen of the other."
The full expression is
What you lose on the swings, you make up for on the roundabouts.
Its origin is from the fairground. For whatever reason, the fairground owner may be losing money on the swings, but gaining it on the roundabouts. So the situation is balanced.
For example:
"They're giving everyone a pay rise, but now we're all expected to work longer hours. So, swings and roundabouts, really..."
It's closely related to the other expression
Six of one and half a dozen of the other
which also means that two things are roughly equal when all the pros and cons are totted up. However, this one is more likely to be used when you're weighing up the situation, before a decision is made:
"If I get the first train, I'll arrive too early and have to wait, but if I get the next train, it will be really full with all the commuters. It's six of one and half a dozen of the other."
answered Dec 21 '14 at 15:20
starsplusplusstarsplusplus
1,2341019
1,2341019
1
I am intrigued by your description of the fairground origin of the term. Would you be able to point to any particular source that mentions it?
– Erik Kowal
Dec 21 '14 at 21:33
@ErikKowal See my comment at OP.
– Kris
Feb 14 '16 at 15:15
add a comment |
1
I am intrigued by your description of the fairground origin of the term. Would you be able to point to any particular source that mentions it?
– Erik Kowal
Dec 21 '14 at 21:33
@ErikKowal See my comment at OP.
– Kris
Feb 14 '16 at 15:15
1
1
I am intrigued by your description of the fairground origin of the term. Would you be able to point to any particular source that mentions it?
– Erik Kowal
Dec 21 '14 at 21:33
I am intrigued by your description of the fairground origin of the term. Would you be able to point to any particular source that mentions it?
– Erik Kowal
Dec 21 '14 at 21:33
@ErikKowal See my comment at OP.
– Kris
Feb 14 '16 at 15:15
@ErikKowal See my comment at OP.
– Kris
Feb 14 '16 at 15:15
add a comment |
I have just read the poem "Roundabouts and Swings" written by Patrick R. Chalmers and published in 1912, which user 160355 mentions.
http://allpoetry.com/Roundabouts-and-Swings
The third and fourth lines in the second stanza, where the 'Pharaoh' (gypsy/gipsy) answers the question
"'ow d'you find things go?"
with
"I find […] things very much as 'ow I've always found, / For mostly they goes up and down or else goes round and round."
confirm what I intuited (before having a look at the website below):
on the swings or see-saws, what the person at one end of the plank or beam gains (height, here), the other loses in equal amount, whereas on roundabouts or merry-go-rounds everybody remains on the same level.
A bit subtler than gaining on one machine what you lost on the other!
You get by anyway, with ups and downs at times, and with nothing changing much at other times.
The third and last stanza ends with the line
An' losses on the roundabouts means profits on the swings!
The same machines are used again, in a less graphic manner, no longer to do with the way they move: the idea is of a bad investment (roundabouts, expensive machines to buy and work?) and a good investment (swings, inexpensive 'machines', worked by the users themselves?), one making up for the other… a mind doing the splits between poetry and banking?! (the poet, Irish, was a banker in London, after all…)
http://interestingliterature/2015/09/03/the-interesting-origins-of-the-phrase-swings-and-roundabouts/
a link to the poem?
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 15:20
Isn't it obvious?! No one else has bothered to post a link... Don't forget to cite the year it was written.
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:21
the problem with my contention is that the author of the poem himself clouds the issue! seems to say that merry-go-rounds make him lose money (a complicated machine, expensive to work) whereas swings make up for it (simple machines, for the working of which the users provide the energy themsleves!), reinterpreting what meant something different at first
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 16:18
In fairgrounds customers are willing to pay to go on the roundabouts and on the swings. Some days the owner makes more money on the roundabouts, but on others he makes more money on the swings. You can never be sure what rides the paying public will prefer from one day to the next; likewise "life" is unpredictable, whatever advantage you lose you may later regain, sooner or later.
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 22:51
add a comment |
I have just read the poem "Roundabouts and Swings" written by Patrick R. Chalmers and published in 1912, which user 160355 mentions.
http://allpoetry.com/Roundabouts-and-Swings
The third and fourth lines in the second stanza, where the 'Pharaoh' (gypsy/gipsy) answers the question
"'ow d'you find things go?"
with
"I find […] things very much as 'ow I've always found, / For mostly they goes up and down or else goes round and round."
confirm what I intuited (before having a look at the website below):
on the swings or see-saws, what the person at one end of the plank or beam gains (height, here), the other loses in equal amount, whereas on roundabouts or merry-go-rounds everybody remains on the same level.
A bit subtler than gaining on one machine what you lost on the other!
You get by anyway, with ups and downs at times, and with nothing changing much at other times.
The third and last stanza ends with the line
An' losses on the roundabouts means profits on the swings!
The same machines are used again, in a less graphic manner, no longer to do with the way they move: the idea is of a bad investment (roundabouts, expensive machines to buy and work?) and a good investment (swings, inexpensive 'machines', worked by the users themselves?), one making up for the other… a mind doing the splits between poetry and banking?! (the poet, Irish, was a banker in London, after all…)
http://interestingliterature/2015/09/03/the-interesting-origins-of-the-phrase-swings-and-roundabouts/
a link to the poem?
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 15:20
Isn't it obvious?! No one else has bothered to post a link... Don't forget to cite the year it was written.
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:21
the problem with my contention is that the author of the poem himself clouds the issue! seems to say that merry-go-rounds make him lose money (a complicated machine, expensive to work) whereas swings make up for it (simple machines, for the working of which the users provide the energy themsleves!), reinterpreting what meant something different at first
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 16:18
In fairgrounds customers are willing to pay to go on the roundabouts and on the swings. Some days the owner makes more money on the roundabouts, but on others he makes more money on the swings. You can never be sure what rides the paying public will prefer from one day to the next; likewise "life" is unpredictable, whatever advantage you lose you may later regain, sooner or later.
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 22:51
add a comment |
I have just read the poem "Roundabouts and Swings" written by Patrick R. Chalmers and published in 1912, which user 160355 mentions.
http://allpoetry.com/Roundabouts-and-Swings
The third and fourth lines in the second stanza, where the 'Pharaoh' (gypsy/gipsy) answers the question
"'ow d'you find things go?"
with
"I find […] things very much as 'ow I've always found, / For mostly they goes up and down or else goes round and round."
confirm what I intuited (before having a look at the website below):
on the swings or see-saws, what the person at one end of the plank or beam gains (height, here), the other loses in equal amount, whereas on roundabouts or merry-go-rounds everybody remains on the same level.
A bit subtler than gaining on one machine what you lost on the other!
You get by anyway, with ups and downs at times, and with nothing changing much at other times.
The third and last stanza ends with the line
An' losses on the roundabouts means profits on the swings!
The same machines are used again, in a less graphic manner, no longer to do with the way they move: the idea is of a bad investment (roundabouts, expensive machines to buy and work?) and a good investment (swings, inexpensive 'machines', worked by the users themselves?), one making up for the other… a mind doing the splits between poetry and banking?! (the poet, Irish, was a banker in London, after all…)
http://interestingliterature/2015/09/03/the-interesting-origins-of-the-phrase-swings-and-roundabouts/
I have just read the poem "Roundabouts and Swings" written by Patrick R. Chalmers and published in 1912, which user 160355 mentions.
http://allpoetry.com/Roundabouts-and-Swings
The third and fourth lines in the second stanza, where the 'Pharaoh' (gypsy/gipsy) answers the question
"'ow d'you find things go?"
with
"I find […] things very much as 'ow I've always found, / For mostly they goes up and down or else goes round and round."
confirm what I intuited (before having a look at the website below):
on the swings or see-saws, what the person at one end of the plank or beam gains (height, here), the other loses in equal amount, whereas on roundabouts or merry-go-rounds everybody remains on the same level.
A bit subtler than gaining on one machine what you lost on the other!
You get by anyway, with ups and downs at times, and with nothing changing much at other times.
The third and last stanza ends with the line
An' losses on the roundabouts means profits on the swings!
The same machines are used again, in a less graphic manner, no longer to do with the way they move: the idea is of a bad investment (roundabouts, expensive machines to buy and work?) and a good investment (swings, inexpensive 'machines', worked by the users themselves?), one making up for the other… a mind doing the splits between poetry and banking?! (the poet, Irish, was a banker in London, after all…)
http://interestingliterature/2015/09/03/the-interesting-origins-of-the-phrase-swings-and-roundabouts/
edited Feb 14 '16 at 21:08
answered Feb 14 '16 at 15:00
user58319user58319
2,11273164
2,11273164
a link to the poem?
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 15:20
Isn't it obvious?! No one else has bothered to post a link... Don't forget to cite the year it was written.
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:21
the problem with my contention is that the author of the poem himself clouds the issue! seems to say that merry-go-rounds make him lose money (a complicated machine, expensive to work) whereas swings make up for it (simple machines, for the working of which the users provide the energy themsleves!), reinterpreting what meant something different at first
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 16:18
In fairgrounds customers are willing to pay to go on the roundabouts and on the swings. Some days the owner makes more money on the roundabouts, but on others he makes more money on the swings. You can never be sure what rides the paying public will prefer from one day to the next; likewise "life" is unpredictable, whatever advantage you lose you may later regain, sooner or later.
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 22:51
add a comment |
a link to the poem?
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 15:20
Isn't it obvious?! No one else has bothered to post a link... Don't forget to cite the year it was written.
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:21
the problem with my contention is that the author of the poem himself clouds the issue! seems to say that merry-go-rounds make him lose money (a complicated machine, expensive to work) whereas swings make up for it (simple machines, for the working of which the users provide the energy themsleves!), reinterpreting what meant something different at first
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 16:18
In fairgrounds customers are willing to pay to go on the roundabouts and on the swings. Some days the owner makes more money on the roundabouts, but on others he makes more money on the swings. You can never be sure what rides the paying public will prefer from one day to the next; likewise "life" is unpredictable, whatever advantage you lose you may later regain, sooner or later.
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 22:51
a link to the poem?
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 15:20
a link to the poem?
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 15:20
Isn't it obvious?! No one else has bothered to post a link... Don't forget to cite the year it was written.
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:21
Isn't it obvious?! No one else has bothered to post a link... Don't forget to cite the year it was written.
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:21
the problem with my contention is that the author of the poem himself clouds the issue! seems to say that merry-go-rounds make him lose money (a complicated machine, expensive to work) whereas swings make up for it (simple machines, for the working of which the users provide the energy themsleves!), reinterpreting what meant something different at first
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 16:18
the problem with my contention is that the author of the poem himself clouds the issue! seems to say that merry-go-rounds make him lose money (a complicated machine, expensive to work) whereas swings make up for it (simple machines, for the working of which the users provide the energy themsleves!), reinterpreting what meant something different at first
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 16:18
In fairgrounds customers are willing to pay to go on the roundabouts and on the swings. Some days the owner makes more money on the roundabouts, but on others he makes more money on the swings. You can never be sure what rides the paying public will prefer from one day to the next; likewise "life" is unpredictable, whatever advantage you lose you may later regain, sooner or later.
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 22:51
In fairgrounds customers are willing to pay to go on the roundabouts and on the swings. Some days the owner makes more money on the roundabouts, but on others he makes more money on the swings. You can never be sure what rides the paying public will prefer from one day to the next; likewise "life" is unpredictable, whatever advantage you lose you may later regain, sooner or later.
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 22:51
add a comment |
The expression comes from the poem "Roundabouts and Swings" by Patrick R Chalmers. The poet was an Irish banker who worked in London around 1900.
It's about an encounter with a gypsy (Pharoe) traveling show. It's a great poem!
It was early last September nigh to Framlin'am-on-Sea,
An' 'twas
Fair-day come to-morrow, an' the time was after tea,
An' I met a
painted caravan adown a dusty lane,
A Pharaoh with his waggons comin'
jolt an' creak an' strain;
A cheery cove an' sunburnt, bold o' eye and
wrinkled up,
An' beside him on the splashboard sat a brindled tarrier
pup,
An' a lurcher wise as Solomon an' lean as fiddle-strings
Was
joggin' in the dust along 'is roundabouts and swings.
"Goo'-day," said 'e; "Goo'-day," said I; "an' 'ow d'you find things
go,
An' what's the chance o' millions when you runs a travellin'
show?"
"I find," said 'e, "things very much as 'ow I've always found,
For mostly they goes up and down or else goes round and round."
Said
'e, "The job's the very spit o' what it always were,
It's bread and
bacon mostly when the dog don't catch a 'are;
But lookin' at it broad,
an' while it ain't no merchant king's,
What's lost upon the
roundabouts we pulls up on the swings!"
"Goo' luck," said 'e; "Goo' luck," said I; "you've put it past a
doubt;
An' keep that lurcher on the road, the gamekeepers is out."
'E
thumped upon the footboard an' 'e lumbered on again
To meet a
gold-dust sunset down the owl-light in the lane;
An' the moon she
climbed the 'azels, while a night-jar seemed to spin
That Pharaoh's
wisdom o'er again, 'is sooth of lose-and-win;
For "up an' down an'
round," said 'e, "goes all appointed things,
An' losses on the
roundabouts means profits on the swings!"
(allpoetry.com)
Welcome to English Language & Usage. Your post doesn't answer the question and reads more like a comment. Please make sure that you take the tour and visit our help center for additional guidance. You can post a comment when you have more than 50 reputation points.
– user140086
Feb 14 '16 at 7:06
2
Good answers should be self-contained. Instead of asking the OP to Google a poem, why not cite a verse from the poem, provide a link to the page which, you believe, is the most helpful?
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:15
apparently, this is not the origin of the expression: english.stackexchange.com/questions/169134/…
– sumelic
Feb 24 '16 at 22:43
add a comment |
The expression comes from the poem "Roundabouts and Swings" by Patrick R Chalmers. The poet was an Irish banker who worked in London around 1900.
It's about an encounter with a gypsy (Pharoe) traveling show. It's a great poem!
It was early last September nigh to Framlin'am-on-Sea,
An' 'twas
Fair-day come to-morrow, an' the time was after tea,
An' I met a
painted caravan adown a dusty lane,
A Pharaoh with his waggons comin'
jolt an' creak an' strain;
A cheery cove an' sunburnt, bold o' eye and
wrinkled up,
An' beside him on the splashboard sat a brindled tarrier
pup,
An' a lurcher wise as Solomon an' lean as fiddle-strings
Was
joggin' in the dust along 'is roundabouts and swings.
"Goo'-day," said 'e; "Goo'-day," said I; "an' 'ow d'you find things
go,
An' what's the chance o' millions when you runs a travellin'
show?"
"I find," said 'e, "things very much as 'ow I've always found,
For mostly they goes up and down or else goes round and round."
Said
'e, "The job's the very spit o' what it always were,
It's bread and
bacon mostly when the dog don't catch a 'are;
But lookin' at it broad,
an' while it ain't no merchant king's,
What's lost upon the
roundabouts we pulls up on the swings!"
"Goo' luck," said 'e; "Goo' luck," said I; "you've put it past a
doubt;
An' keep that lurcher on the road, the gamekeepers is out."
'E
thumped upon the footboard an' 'e lumbered on again
To meet a
gold-dust sunset down the owl-light in the lane;
An' the moon she
climbed the 'azels, while a night-jar seemed to spin
That Pharaoh's
wisdom o'er again, 'is sooth of lose-and-win;
For "up an' down an'
round," said 'e, "goes all appointed things,
An' losses on the
roundabouts means profits on the swings!"
(allpoetry.com)
Welcome to English Language & Usage. Your post doesn't answer the question and reads more like a comment. Please make sure that you take the tour and visit our help center for additional guidance. You can post a comment when you have more than 50 reputation points.
– user140086
Feb 14 '16 at 7:06
2
Good answers should be self-contained. Instead of asking the OP to Google a poem, why not cite a verse from the poem, provide a link to the page which, you believe, is the most helpful?
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:15
apparently, this is not the origin of the expression: english.stackexchange.com/questions/169134/…
– sumelic
Feb 24 '16 at 22:43
add a comment |
The expression comes from the poem "Roundabouts and Swings" by Patrick R Chalmers. The poet was an Irish banker who worked in London around 1900.
It's about an encounter with a gypsy (Pharoe) traveling show. It's a great poem!
It was early last September nigh to Framlin'am-on-Sea,
An' 'twas
Fair-day come to-morrow, an' the time was after tea,
An' I met a
painted caravan adown a dusty lane,
A Pharaoh with his waggons comin'
jolt an' creak an' strain;
A cheery cove an' sunburnt, bold o' eye and
wrinkled up,
An' beside him on the splashboard sat a brindled tarrier
pup,
An' a lurcher wise as Solomon an' lean as fiddle-strings
Was
joggin' in the dust along 'is roundabouts and swings.
"Goo'-day," said 'e; "Goo'-day," said I; "an' 'ow d'you find things
go,
An' what's the chance o' millions when you runs a travellin'
show?"
"I find," said 'e, "things very much as 'ow I've always found,
For mostly they goes up and down or else goes round and round."
Said
'e, "The job's the very spit o' what it always were,
It's bread and
bacon mostly when the dog don't catch a 'are;
But lookin' at it broad,
an' while it ain't no merchant king's,
What's lost upon the
roundabouts we pulls up on the swings!"
"Goo' luck," said 'e; "Goo' luck," said I; "you've put it past a
doubt;
An' keep that lurcher on the road, the gamekeepers is out."
'E
thumped upon the footboard an' 'e lumbered on again
To meet a
gold-dust sunset down the owl-light in the lane;
An' the moon she
climbed the 'azels, while a night-jar seemed to spin
That Pharaoh's
wisdom o'er again, 'is sooth of lose-and-win;
For "up an' down an'
round," said 'e, "goes all appointed things,
An' losses on the
roundabouts means profits on the swings!"
(allpoetry.com)
The expression comes from the poem "Roundabouts and Swings" by Patrick R Chalmers. The poet was an Irish banker who worked in London around 1900.
It's about an encounter with a gypsy (Pharoe) traveling show. It's a great poem!
It was early last September nigh to Framlin'am-on-Sea,
An' 'twas
Fair-day come to-morrow, an' the time was after tea,
An' I met a
painted caravan adown a dusty lane,
A Pharaoh with his waggons comin'
jolt an' creak an' strain;
A cheery cove an' sunburnt, bold o' eye and
wrinkled up,
An' beside him on the splashboard sat a brindled tarrier
pup,
An' a lurcher wise as Solomon an' lean as fiddle-strings
Was
joggin' in the dust along 'is roundabouts and swings.
"Goo'-day," said 'e; "Goo'-day," said I; "an' 'ow d'you find things
go,
An' what's the chance o' millions when you runs a travellin'
show?"
"I find," said 'e, "things very much as 'ow I've always found,
For mostly they goes up and down or else goes round and round."
Said
'e, "The job's the very spit o' what it always were,
It's bread and
bacon mostly when the dog don't catch a 'are;
But lookin' at it broad,
an' while it ain't no merchant king's,
What's lost upon the
roundabouts we pulls up on the swings!"
"Goo' luck," said 'e; "Goo' luck," said I; "you've put it past a
doubt;
An' keep that lurcher on the road, the gamekeepers is out."
'E
thumped upon the footboard an' 'e lumbered on again
To meet a
gold-dust sunset down the owl-light in the lane;
An' the moon she
climbed the 'azels, while a night-jar seemed to spin
That Pharaoh's
wisdom o'er again, 'is sooth of lose-and-win;
For "up an' down an'
round," said 'e, "goes all appointed things,
An' losses on the
roundabouts means profits on the swings!"
(allpoetry.com)
edited Feb 14 '16 at 22:25
sumelic
49.6k8116223
49.6k8116223
answered Feb 14 '16 at 6:55
user160355user160355
391
391
Welcome to English Language & Usage. Your post doesn't answer the question and reads more like a comment. Please make sure that you take the tour and visit our help center for additional guidance. You can post a comment when you have more than 50 reputation points.
– user140086
Feb 14 '16 at 7:06
2
Good answers should be self-contained. Instead of asking the OP to Google a poem, why not cite a verse from the poem, provide a link to the page which, you believe, is the most helpful?
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:15
apparently, this is not the origin of the expression: english.stackexchange.com/questions/169134/…
– sumelic
Feb 24 '16 at 22:43
add a comment |
Welcome to English Language & Usage. Your post doesn't answer the question and reads more like a comment. Please make sure that you take the tour and visit our help center for additional guidance. You can post a comment when you have more than 50 reputation points.
– user140086
Feb 14 '16 at 7:06
2
Good answers should be self-contained. Instead of asking the OP to Google a poem, why not cite a verse from the poem, provide a link to the page which, you believe, is the most helpful?
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:15
apparently, this is not the origin of the expression: english.stackexchange.com/questions/169134/…
– sumelic
Feb 24 '16 at 22:43
Welcome to English Language & Usage. Your post doesn't answer the question and reads more like a comment. Please make sure that you take the tour and visit our help center for additional guidance. You can post a comment when you have more than 50 reputation points.
– user140086
Feb 14 '16 at 7:06
Welcome to English Language & Usage. Your post doesn't answer the question and reads more like a comment. Please make sure that you take the tour and visit our help center for additional guidance. You can post a comment when you have more than 50 reputation points.
– user140086
Feb 14 '16 at 7:06
2
2
Good answers should be self-contained. Instead of asking the OP to Google a poem, why not cite a verse from the poem, provide a link to the page which, you believe, is the most helpful?
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:15
Good answers should be self-contained. Instead of asking the OP to Google a poem, why not cite a verse from the poem, provide a link to the page which, you believe, is the most helpful?
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:15
apparently, this is not the origin of the expression: english.stackexchange.com/questions/169134/…
– sumelic
Feb 24 '16 at 22:43
apparently, this is not the origin of the expression: english.stackexchange.com/questions/169134/…
– sumelic
Feb 24 '16 at 22:43
add a comment |
It goes back to the fairground meaning the man could lose money on a swing but gain money on the roundabout
New contributor
1
Nearly every answer has this piece of information, but @starplusplus's answer is one of the clearest. Its origin is from the fairground. For whatever reason, the fairground owner may be losing money on the swings, but gaining it on the roundabouts. So the situation is balanced.
– Mari-Lou A
10 hours ago
Hi Lynnette, welcome to English Stackexchange. This question was asked and answered in 2014 (4 years ago). It's worth taking a look at the most recent date before answering a question. I have been caught out too and answered a question that was very old. Please don't be disheartened by this and take a look at some of the more recent questions.
– GoodJuJu
8 hours ago
add a comment |
It goes back to the fairground meaning the man could lose money on a swing but gain money on the roundabout
New contributor
1
Nearly every answer has this piece of information, but @starplusplus's answer is one of the clearest. Its origin is from the fairground. For whatever reason, the fairground owner may be losing money on the swings, but gaining it on the roundabouts. So the situation is balanced.
– Mari-Lou A
10 hours ago
Hi Lynnette, welcome to English Stackexchange. This question was asked and answered in 2014 (4 years ago). It's worth taking a look at the most recent date before answering a question. I have been caught out too and answered a question that was very old. Please don't be disheartened by this and take a look at some of the more recent questions.
– GoodJuJu
8 hours ago
add a comment |
It goes back to the fairground meaning the man could lose money on a swing but gain money on the roundabout
New contributor
It goes back to the fairground meaning the man could lose money on a swing but gain money on the roundabout
New contributor
New contributor
answered 13 hours ago
LynnetteLynnette
1
1
New contributor
New contributor
1
Nearly every answer has this piece of information, but @starplusplus's answer is one of the clearest. Its origin is from the fairground. For whatever reason, the fairground owner may be losing money on the swings, but gaining it on the roundabouts. So the situation is balanced.
– Mari-Lou A
10 hours ago
Hi Lynnette, welcome to English Stackexchange. This question was asked and answered in 2014 (4 years ago). It's worth taking a look at the most recent date before answering a question. I have been caught out too and answered a question that was very old. Please don't be disheartened by this and take a look at some of the more recent questions.
– GoodJuJu
8 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Nearly every answer has this piece of information, but @starplusplus's answer is one of the clearest. Its origin is from the fairground. For whatever reason, the fairground owner may be losing money on the swings, but gaining it on the roundabouts. So the situation is balanced.
– Mari-Lou A
10 hours ago
Hi Lynnette, welcome to English Stackexchange. This question was asked and answered in 2014 (4 years ago). It's worth taking a look at the most recent date before answering a question. I have been caught out too and answered a question that was very old. Please don't be disheartened by this and take a look at some of the more recent questions.
– GoodJuJu
8 hours ago
1
1
Nearly every answer has this piece of information, but @starplusplus's answer is one of the clearest. Its origin is from the fairground. For whatever reason, the fairground owner may be losing money on the swings, but gaining it on the roundabouts. So the situation is balanced.
– Mari-Lou A
10 hours ago
Nearly every answer has this piece of information, but @starplusplus's answer is one of the clearest. Its origin is from the fairground. For whatever reason, the fairground owner may be losing money on the swings, but gaining it on the roundabouts. So the situation is balanced.
– Mari-Lou A
10 hours ago
Hi Lynnette, welcome to English Stackexchange. This question was asked and answered in 2014 (4 years ago). It's worth taking a look at the most recent date before answering a question. I have been caught out too and answered a question that was very old. Please don't be disheartened by this and take a look at some of the more recent questions.
– GoodJuJu
8 hours ago
Hi Lynnette, welcome to English Stackexchange. This question was asked and answered in 2014 (4 years ago). It's worth taking a look at the most recent date before answering a question. I have been caught out too and answered a question that was very old. Please don't be disheartened by this and take a look at some of the more recent questions.
– GoodJuJu
8 hours ago
add a comment |
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The strange thing is that both swings and roundabouts return to where they started (unlike, say, a slide) but this is not part of the meaning of the phrase.
– Henry
Dec 21 '14 at 20:49
@Henry: you were onto something, I think, and this certainly IS part of the meaning of the phrase!
– user58319
Feb 14 '16 at 15:04
interestingliterature.com/2015/09/03/…
– Kris
Feb 14 '16 at 15:13
Related: What is the English equivalent to the Chinese/Japanese saying, “塞翁失馬— Life is like Old Sai’s horse”?
– Mari-Lou A
Feb 14 '16 at 15:26
FWIW, "roundabouts and swings", apparently in the sense of a street fair, goes back to 1829. "Swings and roundabouts", in the same sense, goes back to 1803.
– Hot Licks
Feb 14 '16 at 22:40