Do scriptures give a method to recognize a truly self-realized person/jivanmukta? [duplicate]












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  • How can we identify a self realized person?

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Some schools accept the concept of self-realization or jivanmukta. Advaita, for example, is one such school. Not all schools accept this concept, so this question is limited in scope to only those schools that accept the concept of jivanmukta.



Now, the question is - is it possible for us to recognize whether a person is a jivanmukta or not? Do scriptures tell us any way to distinguish the true jivanmukta from the fraud? Or is it purely subjective? If it is purely subjective, then the great personalities recognised by many saints will have to be placed at the same level as people like Nityananda, Vishwananda etc. Objectively speaking, both sets of people have their own followers who believe that their masters are self-realized. So how to resolve this issue of who is truly realized and who is fraud? Are there any scriptural statements that can help us in objectively knowing who is a true jivanmukta? Now, a particular scripture may say that a jivanmukta is equally disposed to praise and abuse, but strictly speaking, this cannot be objectively verified, because no one knows what is going on in the mind of the person.










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This question already has an answer here:




  • How can we identify a self realized person?

    1 answer




Some schools accept the concept of self-realization or jivanmukta. Advaita, for example, is one such school. Not all schools accept this concept, so this question is limited in scope to only those schools that accept the concept of jivanmukta.



Now, the question is - is it possible for us to recognize whether a person is a jivanmukta or not? Do scriptures tell us any way to distinguish the true jivanmukta from the fraud? Or is it purely subjective? If it is purely subjective, then the great personalities recognised by many saints will have to be placed at the same level as people like Nityananda, Vishwananda etc. Objectively speaking, both sets of people have their own followers who believe that their masters are self-realized. So how to resolve this issue of who is truly realized and who is fraud? Are there any scriptural statements that can help us in objectively knowing who is a true jivanmukta? Now, a particular scripture may say that a jivanmukta is equally disposed to praise and abuse, but strictly speaking, this cannot be objectively verified, because no one knows what is going on in the mind of the person.










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marked as duplicate by Naveen Kick, sv., Akshay S, Sarvabhouma, Aby yesterday


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This question already has an answer here:




  • How can we identify a self realized person?

    1 answer




Some schools accept the concept of self-realization or jivanmukta. Advaita, for example, is one such school. Not all schools accept this concept, so this question is limited in scope to only those schools that accept the concept of jivanmukta.



Now, the question is - is it possible for us to recognize whether a person is a jivanmukta or not? Do scriptures tell us any way to distinguish the true jivanmukta from the fraud? Or is it purely subjective? If it is purely subjective, then the great personalities recognised by many saints will have to be placed at the same level as people like Nityananda, Vishwananda etc. Objectively speaking, both sets of people have their own followers who believe that their masters are self-realized. So how to resolve this issue of who is truly realized and who is fraud? Are there any scriptural statements that can help us in objectively knowing who is a true jivanmukta? Now, a particular scripture may say that a jivanmukta is equally disposed to praise and abuse, but strictly speaking, this cannot be objectively verified, because no one knows what is going on in the mind of the person.










share|improve this question

















This question already has an answer here:




  • How can we identify a self realized person?

    1 answer




Some schools accept the concept of self-realization or jivanmukta. Advaita, for example, is one such school. Not all schools accept this concept, so this question is limited in scope to only those schools that accept the concept of jivanmukta.



Now, the question is - is it possible for us to recognize whether a person is a jivanmukta or not? Do scriptures tell us any way to distinguish the true jivanmukta from the fraud? Or is it purely subjective? If it is purely subjective, then the great personalities recognised by many saints will have to be placed at the same level as people like Nityananda, Vishwananda etc. Objectively speaking, both sets of people have their own followers who believe that their masters are self-realized. So how to resolve this issue of who is truly realized and who is fraud? Are there any scriptural statements that can help us in objectively knowing who is a true jivanmukta? Now, a particular scripture may say that a jivanmukta is equally disposed to praise and abuse, but strictly speaking, this cannot be objectively verified, because no one knows what is going on in the mind of the person.





This question already has an answer here:




  • How can we identify a self realized person?

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marked as duplicate by Naveen Kick, sv., Akshay S, Sarvabhouma, Aby yesterday


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Dattatreya, among others, is an ideal example of a Jivanmukta. He was always associated with wine etc and a filthy lifestyle.



Why is that?



Because Jivanmuktas don't want the masses to come to them. As simple as that. Because their touch is enough to liberate others, but not everyone is ready for liberation yet.



Symptoms from Upanishads:




Like Svetaketu, Rbhu, Nidagha, Vrsabha, Durvasas, Samvartaka,
Dattatreya, and Raivataka, he has no visible emblem; he keeps his
conduct concealed; he acts as if he were a fool, a lunatic, or a
goblin; and, although he is sane, he behaves like a madman.



Narada Parivrajaka Upanishad, Chapter3




In these Upanishads, they are known as Paramhamsas. They always will hide their true identities. And, they will do everything so that people feel disgusted towards them.




His emblem and aim concealed, he should present himself to the people
as a madman or a simpleton even though he is a sage, and as a fool
even though he is wise. "Let him not do anything, say anything, or
think of anything whether it is good or bad. In this manner a sage
shall roam like a fool, finding his delight in himself.








Although he is sane, he behaves like a madman. He has no visible
emblem. He keeps his conduct concealed.



Paramhamsa Parivrajaka Upanishad, Chapter 5




So, we can not recognize such a person neither from his conduct, nor from what he is wearing.



Symptoms from VedAntic texts:



I'm using YogaVAshita here.




Dure munchati vandhumandhamiva yah sangAdbhujangAdiva |
TrAsam yo
vidadhAti vetti sadrisham bhogam cha rogam cha yah ||
... SwAntam
yasya samam sa mangalamihAmutrApi martyohashnute ||



He who forsakes all associations with friends like a blind, who is
afraid of associations with the masses
like a snake, who sees the
pleasure (bhoga) and ailment (roga) as the same .. that wise man is
known to be liberated always.



YogaVAshishtaSAra, Tattva GyAna Prakarana, Verse 18




So, another pointed highlighted here is that he will avoid all associations with masses.



The commentator (on YogavAshishtaSArah) SwAmi DhireshAnanada comments on the nature and some features of the Jivanmuktah:




Andhavat:



Because he sees the world as not true he is like the blind (andha).



Jadavat:



Because he knows the inert nature of all the non-self entities like
bodies etc, he is Jadavat (inert).



Mukavat:



Since he resides in a state which is inexplicable (anirvachya pAda),
he is mukavat (dumb).



Unmattavat:



Since he wants to avoid association of all sorts, he behaves like a
mad man and hence is Unmattavat.








RAgadveshabhayAdinAmanurupam charannapi |
Yohantar-vyom-datyacchah
sa jivanmukta ucyate ||



Who, although is clear like the Akasha from the inside, shows from
outside, attraction towards food etc, anger towards the wicked, and
fear (towards snakes, tigers etc) is known to be a Jivanmukta.



Laghu YogavAshita 5.93




Symptoms from the Tantras:



I'm using KulArnava Tantram. In chapter 9 of this scripture, Lord Shiva describes the features of the Yogis who have attained self-realization. They are known as the Kula-Yogis in the text.




Yogino vividhairveshairnarAnAm hitakArinah |
Bhramanti
prithivimetAmavigyAta-swarupinah ||



Acting in a way that is beneficial to the human beings, these Yogis move about in different
forms, always concealing their true nature
. 66



Sakrinnai-vAtma-vijyAnam kshapayanti kuleswari |

Unmatta-muka-jada-vannivasellokamadhyatah ||



O Goddess of the Kulas, they are never detached from the Knowledge of
the Self but amongst the masses, they behave like a mad, a dumb or an
inert person. (67)








AlakshyA hi yathA loke vyomni chandrArkayorgatihi |
NakshtrAnAm
grahAnAncha tathaiva kulayoginAm ||



In this world, the movement of the Kula Yogis are unnoticed (that is their real movement is hidden from us) just as
the movements of the sun, the moon and the stars in sky are unnoticed.
(68)



Asanta iva bhAshante charantyagyA iva priye |
PAmarA iva
drishyante kulayoga-vishAradAh ||



O Beloved -- The Kula Yogis speak like the bad people, roam like the
idiots (ignorant) and appear as cheats (to others). (70)








Muktohapi vAlavat kriret kulesho jada-vaccharet |

Vadenn-unmatta-vavidvAna kuloyogi ||



O Great Goddess --- although the Kulayogi is liberated, he plays like
a child, behaves like an inert and talks like a mad man.
(72)



YathA hasati lokahayam jugupsati cha kutsati |
Vilokya durato yAti
tathA yogi pravartate ||



The Yogis must behave in a manner so that people laugh at them, despise them, censure them and stay away from them. (73)




So, in short, it is NOT POSSIBLE to recognize a true Jivanmukta. Because, they will always hide their true nature for sure. Moreover, their movements are also concealed from us.






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Its a very good question. The Mundaka-Upanishad (2/2/9) describes what happens after illumination :




Bhidyate hṛdaya-granthiś chidyante sarva-saṁśayāḥ, kṣīyante cāsya karmāṇi tasmin dṛṣṭe parāvare (2.2.9):




Meaning : The knots of the heart [ ignorance, desire and action] are broken at once by the rise of the knowledge of Brahman. All doubts are dispelled in one second. All the karmas will be destroyed. All the effects of karma that cause rebirth are burnt into ashes.



The Sarva-Darshana-Sangraha gives the definition of a 'Jivanmukta' as




He who has come out of the false recognition by constant practice and has realised his true Self, and is consuming his prarabdha being unattached is Jivanmukta. Reference: Satramulak Bharatiya Shaktisadhana, Upendrakumar Das, RMIC, Vol. 1, page 308.




Sri Sri Trailaga Swami in His 'MahavAkya-RatnAvali' defines the 'Jivanmukta' as




sa tatra paryeti jakshat kridan ramamAnah strivir vA yAnair vA jnAtivir vA vasyayair vA nopajanam smarannidam sariram//(1) meaning : The Jivanmukta eats as He likes, and roams freely, sometimes playful, soketimes still, staying with wife, cart (yAna), relatives and friends but always remaing in the Self.



sa muktah sa pujya sa yogi sa oaramahansah sa avadhutah sa brahmanah (5), meaning that the Jivanmukta lives sometimes being worshipped by many, being recognised as a yogi or Paramahansa or Avadhuta or brahmin etc.[But He is always established in the true Self].



Atmakrida Atmaratih kriyavAn esha brahmavidAm varisthah (12), meaning that the greatest among the Brahmavids is always playful and blissful in His true Self




All these are only 'sva-samvedya' ie can be known only by the Illumined Soul. None can know it seeing Him or Her from outside.Its known within.



The realised souls very often roam around like Jada or an unmatta or a vala or a pisacha.



However to a deserving aspirant He discloses His True Self. Tantra mentions several qualities of a Real Guru that was in fact observed in the lives of the great saints you mentioned -- Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Ramana Maharshi.





  1. ye dattvA sahajAnandam haranti indriyajam sukham/sevyAs te guravah sishyair anye tyAjyah pratArakah (Kularnava-Tantra 13/97). Meaning : The real Gurus remove all attractions to sensual pleasures of the disciples by pouring in them supreme bliss.They alone should be worshipped by the disciples and others are just cheaters.




  2. dipa-darshana-mAtrena pranashyati yathA tamah/sadguror darshanAd devi tathA jnanam prakashate // (Ibid. 13/116). Meaning : Just like a lamp removes darkness instantly, just a vision of a (real) Guru jnana appears [in the heart of the disciple].




  3. yathA bahnisamipastham navanitam viliyate/ tathA pApam viliyate sadAcharya-samipatah// (Ibid.13/13). Meaning : As butter melts instantly when taken near fire, a Real Guru destoys all the sins of a disciple.




But all these would be revealed only to a deserving disciple .Tantra also mentions that illumination of someone can not understood by anyone else:




jnAnam Atmaa eva chidrupo jneyam Atmaiva chinmayah/vijnAta svyam eva AtmA yo jAnAti sa Atmabit. (Mahanirvana-Tantra 14/139).




Sri Krishna in Gita (2/55-61) provides the 'lakshana'-s of a 'Sthita-prajna'. Some of these may be revealed to those who can mix with them intimately. Gita also gives other characteristics of an illumined soul beautifully:




12.13 He who is not hateful towards any creature, who is friendly and compassionate, who has no idea of 'mine' and the idea of egoism, who is the same under sorrow and happiness, who is forgiving.




So anyone having an iota of desire or secterianism, bigotry or hatred is miles away from illumination. An aspirant must examine his Guru very carefully before becoming a disciple according to our scriptures. Also, just as a tree is known by its fruits, a real Guru can be known by His disciples.Please go through the detailed biographies of the close devotees/disciples of Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Ramana Maharshi or any other great saint and you will definitely get a clear idea about their Guru-s.



UPDATE



Do the liberated souls keep away from the masses always?



Sri Ramakrishna in His Kathamrita explains this. There are two types of the Paramahansas : NirAkAravAdi and sAkAravadi. He says:




The NirakaravAdis wpare 'Aptasaara' -- they are not bothered about the others. But the SAkAravapAdi Paramahansas want to give the share of the supreme bliss to others. Some eat mango and wipe his face.Some enjoy it eating and also distributing to others. Some throw away the instruments of digging well after the well is ready. Others keep the instruments for the benefit of the others.




So it is love that matters.He also mentioned that one can train the masss if He is ordered to do so by the Divine.



It is therefore ultimately the grace of God that some Jivanmuktas remain in the society to prove that God can in fact be realised. The scriptures also say that who inspite of being able to guide others do not help others is not the dearest to God.



As the Viveka-Chudamoni says




sAntA mahAnto nivasanti santo/ vasantabat lokahitam charantah // meaning that gentle-natured great saints live by doing welfare of the masses just like the cool breeze of the spring season.




The above makes clear that the real realised souls do not always stay away from the masses.






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    Scriptures describes both type of people.



    Bhagavata describes Rsibhadeva, Shukadeva, Avadutha brahmana who were away from society and appeared like madmen.



    The story of Avadhuta Brahmana comes in the section where Prahlada meets him in a forest where he was not understood by anyone.



    It's Narada describing symptoms of saintly person with respect to accepting sanyasa asrama in 13th Chapter of 7th Canto.




    (1) S'rî Nârada said: 'Someone capable [of what I described before],
    should wander around from place to place without any form of material
    attachment and, ultimately with nothing but his body, not stay in any
    village longer than a single night [see also the story of King
    Rishabha 5.5: 28]. (2) If the renunciate [sannyâsî] wears clothing at
    all, it should be nothing but some covering for his private parts.
    Except for in case of distress, he should not take to matters he has
    given up; he normally is characterized by nothing but the marks of
    renunciation: his rod [danda] and such. (3) With Nârâyana as his
    refuge he, living on alms only, satisfied within, all alone and not
    depending on anyone or anything, moves around in perfect peace as a
    well-wisher to all living beings. (4) He should see this universe of
    cause and effect as existing within the everlasting Self in the beyond
    and see the Supreme Absolute itself as pervading the world of cause
    and effect everywhere [compare B.G. 9: 4]. (5) The soul moves from
    waking to sleeping to the dreaming in between [see also 6.16: 53-54].
    Because of that someone of self-awareness considers the states of
    being bound - of being conditioned - and being liberated as in fact
    being nothing but an illusion. (6) He should not rejoice in the
    certainty of the death of the body, nor in the uncertainty of its
    life, he instead should observe the supreme [command] of Time that
    rules the manifestation and disappearance of all living beings. (7) He
    [the renunciate] should not be fixed on time bound literatures, nor
    depend on a career. Accusations and pedantry he should give up and he
    should not side with group bound conjecture, opinion and speculation
    [politics]. (8) He should not seek followers, nor should he engage in
    diverse literary exercises or read such writings. He should not
    subsist on lecturing nor set up an enterprise [for building temples
    e.g.]. (9) A peaceful and equal minded renunciate does not necessarily
    have to adopt the symbols of his spiritual position [the danda etc. of
    his âs'rama *], he as a great soul may just as well abandon them. (10)
    Even though he externally may not directly be recognized as a
    renunciate, he is clear in his purpose. Such a saintly person may feel
    the need to present himself in society like a restless youth, or,
    having been a scholar, present himself as a less intelligent man.



    (11) As an example of such a hidden identity one [often] recites a
    very old story about a conversation between Prahlâda and a saintly man
    who lived like a python.
    (12-13) Prahlâda, the favorite of the Supreme
    Lord, once met such a saint when he with a few royal associates was
    traveling around the world in an effort to understand the motives of
    the people. At the bank of the Kâverî river on a slope of the mountain
    Sahya, he witnessed the purity and profundity of the spiritual
    radiance of a man who was lying on the ground with his entire body
    covered with dirt and dust. (14) From what he did, how he looked, from
    what he said as also by his age, occupation and other marks of
    identity, the people could not decide whether or not that man was
    someone they knew.
    (15) After paying his respects and honoring him by,
    according to the rules, touching his lotus feet with his head, the
    great Asura devotee of the Lord, eager to know him, asked the
    following question. (16-17) 'I see you are maintaining quite a fat
    body, like you are someone eager for money. People who always worry
    about an income, are surely of sense gratification. Wealthy people,
    they who enjoy this world and think of nothing else, therefore
    [easily] become as fat as this body of yours. (18) You, lying down
    doing nothing, oh man of the spirit, clearly have no money for sense
    enjoyment. How can, without you enjoying your senses, your body be
    this fat, oh learned one? Excuse me for asking this, but can you
    please tell us that? (19) Despite your being so learned, skilled and
    intelligent and your talent to speak nicely and your inner balance,
    you lie down observing how the people are engaged in their work!'




    Thus, paramahamsas who accepted ajaghara(python) style of living in life of renunciation are very difficult to be identified.



    It also described Prahlada who wanted to stay and deliver the common masses of people from material life.




    SB 7.9.43: Oh Supreme One, because my mind is absorbed in the singing
    and proclaiming of Your sweet ocean of glories, I am free from worries
    about the hard to cross Vaitaranî [that is this world]. I am more
    concerned about those fools who, missing the liberation in carrying
    the load of their sensual interest, are making plans in favor of
    illusory forms of happiness and dutifulness.



    SB 7.9.44: Oh Godhead, saints ambitious for their own salvation
    generally in silence wander in remote places, not so much interested
    in a life for the sake of others. But I, unlike them, do not want to
    ignore my suffering fellow men. I do not desire liberation for myself
    alone. I cannot accept it to see other people wander around oblivious
    of this shelter of Yours.




    Also, we get a list of 12 authorities on spiritual knowledge out of which only 4 Kumaras and Shukadeva seem to follow path of renunciation.




    SB 6.3.20-21: Lord Brahmâ, Nârada, Lord S'iva, the four Kumâras,
    Kapila, Manu, Prahlâda, Janaka, Bhîshma, Bali, the son of Vyâsa
    [S'uka] and I myself [Yamarâja]; we, these twelve [mahâjanas], have
    knowledge of the bhâgavata-dharma [the emancipation in surrender to
    the Supreme Lord] my dear servants, that is most confidential,
    transcendental and hard to grasp. He who understands it achieves
    eternal life.




    It seems it depends on individual and Lord's will.






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      Dattatreya, among others, is an ideal example of a Jivanmukta. He was always associated with wine etc and a filthy lifestyle.



      Why is that?



      Because Jivanmuktas don't want the masses to come to them. As simple as that. Because their touch is enough to liberate others, but not everyone is ready for liberation yet.



      Symptoms from Upanishads:




      Like Svetaketu, Rbhu, Nidagha, Vrsabha, Durvasas, Samvartaka,
      Dattatreya, and Raivataka, he has no visible emblem; he keeps his
      conduct concealed; he acts as if he were a fool, a lunatic, or a
      goblin; and, although he is sane, he behaves like a madman.



      Narada Parivrajaka Upanishad, Chapter3




      In these Upanishads, they are known as Paramhamsas. They always will hide their true identities. And, they will do everything so that people feel disgusted towards them.




      His emblem and aim concealed, he should present himself to the people
      as a madman or a simpleton even though he is a sage, and as a fool
      even though he is wise. "Let him not do anything, say anything, or
      think of anything whether it is good or bad. In this manner a sage
      shall roam like a fool, finding his delight in himself.








      Although he is sane, he behaves like a madman. He has no visible
      emblem. He keeps his conduct concealed.



      Paramhamsa Parivrajaka Upanishad, Chapter 5




      So, we can not recognize such a person neither from his conduct, nor from what he is wearing.



      Symptoms from VedAntic texts:



      I'm using YogaVAshita here.




      Dure munchati vandhumandhamiva yah sangAdbhujangAdiva |
      TrAsam yo
      vidadhAti vetti sadrisham bhogam cha rogam cha yah ||
      ... SwAntam
      yasya samam sa mangalamihAmutrApi martyohashnute ||



      He who forsakes all associations with friends like a blind, who is
      afraid of associations with the masses
      like a snake, who sees the
      pleasure (bhoga) and ailment (roga) as the same .. that wise man is
      known to be liberated always.



      YogaVAshishtaSAra, Tattva GyAna Prakarana, Verse 18




      So, another pointed highlighted here is that he will avoid all associations with masses.



      The commentator (on YogavAshishtaSArah) SwAmi DhireshAnanada comments on the nature and some features of the Jivanmuktah:




      Andhavat:



      Because he sees the world as not true he is like the blind (andha).



      Jadavat:



      Because he knows the inert nature of all the non-self entities like
      bodies etc, he is Jadavat (inert).



      Mukavat:



      Since he resides in a state which is inexplicable (anirvachya pAda),
      he is mukavat (dumb).



      Unmattavat:



      Since he wants to avoid association of all sorts, he behaves like a
      mad man and hence is Unmattavat.








      RAgadveshabhayAdinAmanurupam charannapi |
      Yohantar-vyom-datyacchah
      sa jivanmukta ucyate ||



      Who, although is clear like the Akasha from the inside, shows from
      outside, attraction towards food etc, anger towards the wicked, and
      fear (towards snakes, tigers etc) is known to be a Jivanmukta.



      Laghu YogavAshita 5.93




      Symptoms from the Tantras:



      I'm using KulArnava Tantram. In chapter 9 of this scripture, Lord Shiva describes the features of the Yogis who have attained self-realization. They are known as the Kula-Yogis in the text.




      Yogino vividhairveshairnarAnAm hitakArinah |
      Bhramanti
      prithivimetAmavigyAta-swarupinah ||



      Acting in a way that is beneficial to the human beings, these Yogis move about in different
      forms, always concealing their true nature
      . 66



      Sakrinnai-vAtma-vijyAnam kshapayanti kuleswari |

      Unmatta-muka-jada-vannivasellokamadhyatah ||



      O Goddess of the Kulas, they are never detached from the Knowledge of
      the Self but amongst the masses, they behave like a mad, a dumb or an
      inert person. (67)








      AlakshyA hi yathA loke vyomni chandrArkayorgatihi |
      NakshtrAnAm
      grahAnAncha tathaiva kulayoginAm ||



      In this world, the movement of the Kula Yogis are unnoticed (that is their real movement is hidden from us) just as
      the movements of the sun, the moon and the stars in sky are unnoticed.
      (68)



      Asanta iva bhAshante charantyagyA iva priye |
      PAmarA iva
      drishyante kulayoga-vishAradAh ||



      O Beloved -- The Kula Yogis speak like the bad people, roam like the
      idiots (ignorant) and appear as cheats (to others). (70)








      Muktohapi vAlavat kriret kulesho jada-vaccharet |

      Vadenn-unmatta-vavidvAna kuloyogi ||



      O Great Goddess --- although the Kulayogi is liberated, he plays like
      a child, behaves like an inert and talks like a mad man.
      (72)



      YathA hasati lokahayam jugupsati cha kutsati |
      Vilokya durato yAti
      tathA yogi pravartate ||



      The Yogis must behave in a manner so that people laugh at them, despise them, censure them and stay away from them. (73)




      So, in short, it is NOT POSSIBLE to recognize a true Jivanmukta. Because, they will always hide their true nature for sure. Moreover, their movements are also concealed from us.






      share|improve this answer


























      • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

        – The Destroyer
        yesterday
















      9














      Dattatreya, among others, is an ideal example of a Jivanmukta. He was always associated with wine etc and a filthy lifestyle.



      Why is that?



      Because Jivanmuktas don't want the masses to come to them. As simple as that. Because their touch is enough to liberate others, but not everyone is ready for liberation yet.



      Symptoms from Upanishads:




      Like Svetaketu, Rbhu, Nidagha, Vrsabha, Durvasas, Samvartaka,
      Dattatreya, and Raivataka, he has no visible emblem; he keeps his
      conduct concealed; he acts as if he were a fool, a lunatic, or a
      goblin; and, although he is sane, he behaves like a madman.



      Narada Parivrajaka Upanishad, Chapter3




      In these Upanishads, they are known as Paramhamsas. They always will hide their true identities. And, they will do everything so that people feel disgusted towards them.




      His emblem and aim concealed, he should present himself to the people
      as a madman or a simpleton even though he is a sage, and as a fool
      even though he is wise. "Let him not do anything, say anything, or
      think of anything whether it is good or bad. In this manner a sage
      shall roam like a fool, finding his delight in himself.








      Although he is sane, he behaves like a madman. He has no visible
      emblem. He keeps his conduct concealed.



      Paramhamsa Parivrajaka Upanishad, Chapter 5




      So, we can not recognize such a person neither from his conduct, nor from what he is wearing.



      Symptoms from VedAntic texts:



      I'm using YogaVAshita here.




      Dure munchati vandhumandhamiva yah sangAdbhujangAdiva |
      TrAsam yo
      vidadhAti vetti sadrisham bhogam cha rogam cha yah ||
      ... SwAntam
      yasya samam sa mangalamihAmutrApi martyohashnute ||



      He who forsakes all associations with friends like a blind, who is
      afraid of associations with the masses
      like a snake, who sees the
      pleasure (bhoga) and ailment (roga) as the same .. that wise man is
      known to be liberated always.



      YogaVAshishtaSAra, Tattva GyAna Prakarana, Verse 18




      So, another pointed highlighted here is that he will avoid all associations with masses.



      The commentator (on YogavAshishtaSArah) SwAmi DhireshAnanada comments on the nature and some features of the Jivanmuktah:




      Andhavat:



      Because he sees the world as not true he is like the blind (andha).



      Jadavat:



      Because he knows the inert nature of all the non-self entities like
      bodies etc, he is Jadavat (inert).



      Mukavat:



      Since he resides in a state which is inexplicable (anirvachya pAda),
      he is mukavat (dumb).



      Unmattavat:



      Since he wants to avoid association of all sorts, he behaves like a
      mad man and hence is Unmattavat.








      RAgadveshabhayAdinAmanurupam charannapi |
      Yohantar-vyom-datyacchah
      sa jivanmukta ucyate ||



      Who, although is clear like the Akasha from the inside, shows from
      outside, attraction towards food etc, anger towards the wicked, and
      fear (towards snakes, tigers etc) is known to be a Jivanmukta.



      Laghu YogavAshita 5.93




      Symptoms from the Tantras:



      I'm using KulArnava Tantram. In chapter 9 of this scripture, Lord Shiva describes the features of the Yogis who have attained self-realization. They are known as the Kula-Yogis in the text.




      Yogino vividhairveshairnarAnAm hitakArinah |
      Bhramanti
      prithivimetAmavigyAta-swarupinah ||



      Acting in a way that is beneficial to the human beings, these Yogis move about in different
      forms, always concealing their true nature
      . 66



      Sakrinnai-vAtma-vijyAnam kshapayanti kuleswari |

      Unmatta-muka-jada-vannivasellokamadhyatah ||



      O Goddess of the Kulas, they are never detached from the Knowledge of
      the Self but amongst the masses, they behave like a mad, a dumb or an
      inert person. (67)








      AlakshyA hi yathA loke vyomni chandrArkayorgatihi |
      NakshtrAnAm
      grahAnAncha tathaiva kulayoginAm ||



      In this world, the movement of the Kula Yogis are unnoticed (that is their real movement is hidden from us) just as
      the movements of the sun, the moon and the stars in sky are unnoticed.
      (68)



      Asanta iva bhAshante charantyagyA iva priye |
      PAmarA iva
      drishyante kulayoga-vishAradAh ||



      O Beloved -- The Kula Yogis speak like the bad people, roam like the
      idiots (ignorant) and appear as cheats (to others). (70)








      Muktohapi vAlavat kriret kulesho jada-vaccharet |

      Vadenn-unmatta-vavidvAna kuloyogi ||



      O Great Goddess --- although the Kulayogi is liberated, he plays like
      a child, behaves like an inert and talks like a mad man.
      (72)



      YathA hasati lokahayam jugupsati cha kutsati |
      Vilokya durato yAti
      tathA yogi pravartate ||



      The Yogis must behave in a manner so that people laugh at them, despise them, censure them and stay away from them. (73)




      So, in short, it is NOT POSSIBLE to recognize a true Jivanmukta. Because, they will always hide their true nature for sure. Moreover, their movements are also concealed from us.






      share|improve this answer


























      • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

        – The Destroyer
        yesterday














      9












      9








      9







      Dattatreya, among others, is an ideal example of a Jivanmukta. He was always associated with wine etc and a filthy lifestyle.



      Why is that?



      Because Jivanmuktas don't want the masses to come to them. As simple as that. Because their touch is enough to liberate others, but not everyone is ready for liberation yet.



      Symptoms from Upanishads:




      Like Svetaketu, Rbhu, Nidagha, Vrsabha, Durvasas, Samvartaka,
      Dattatreya, and Raivataka, he has no visible emblem; he keeps his
      conduct concealed; he acts as if he were a fool, a lunatic, or a
      goblin; and, although he is sane, he behaves like a madman.



      Narada Parivrajaka Upanishad, Chapter3




      In these Upanishads, they are known as Paramhamsas. They always will hide their true identities. And, they will do everything so that people feel disgusted towards them.




      His emblem and aim concealed, he should present himself to the people
      as a madman or a simpleton even though he is a sage, and as a fool
      even though he is wise. "Let him not do anything, say anything, or
      think of anything whether it is good or bad. In this manner a sage
      shall roam like a fool, finding his delight in himself.








      Although he is sane, he behaves like a madman. He has no visible
      emblem. He keeps his conduct concealed.



      Paramhamsa Parivrajaka Upanishad, Chapter 5




      So, we can not recognize such a person neither from his conduct, nor from what he is wearing.



      Symptoms from VedAntic texts:



      I'm using YogaVAshita here.




      Dure munchati vandhumandhamiva yah sangAdbhujangAdiva |
      TrAsam yo
      vidadhAti vetti sadrisham bhogam cha rogam cha yah ||
      ... SwAntam
      yasya samam sa mangalamihAmutrApi martyohashnute ||



      He who forsakes all associations with friends like a blind, who is
      afraid of associations with the masses
      like a snake, who sees the
      pleasure (bhoga) and ailment (roga) as the same .. that wise man is
      known to be liberated always.



      YogaVAshishtaSAra, Tattva GyAna Prakarana, Verse 18




      So, another pointed highlighted here is that he will avoid all associations with masses.



      The commentator (on YogavAshishtaSArah) SwAmi DhireshAnanada comments on the nature and some features of the Jivanmuktah:




      Andhavat:



      Because he sees the world as not true he is like the blind (andha).



      Jadavat:



      Because he knows the inert nature of all the non-self entities like
      bodies etc, he is Jadavat (inert).



      Mukavat:



      Since he resides in a state which is inexplicable (anirvachya pAda),
      he is mukavat (dumb).



      Unmattavat:



      Since he wants to avoid association of all sorts, he behaves like a
      mad man and hence is Unmattavat.








      RAgadveshabhayAdinAmanurupam charannapi |
      Yohantar-vyom-datyacchah
      sa jivanmukta ucyate ||



      Who, although is clear like the Akasha from the inside, shows from
      outside, attraction towards food etc, anger towards the wicked, and
      fear (towards snakes, tigers etc) is known to be a Jivanmukta.



      Laghu YogavAshita 5.93




      Symptoms from the Tantras:



      I'm using KulArnava Tantram. In chapter 9 of this scripture, Lord Shiva describes the features of the Yogis who have attained self-realization. They are known as the Kula-Yogis in the text.




      Yogino vividhairveshairnarAnAm hitakArinah |
      Bhramanti
      prithivimetAmavigyAta-swarupinah ||



      Acting in a way that is beneficial to the human beings, these Yogis move about in different
      forms, always concealing their true nature
      . 66



      Sakrinnai-vAtma-vijyAnam kshapayanti kuleswari |

      Unmatta-muka-jada-vannivasellokamadhyatah ||



      O Goddess of the Kulas, they are never detached from the Knowledge of
      the Self but amongst the masses, they behave like a mad, a dumb or an
      inert person. (67)








      AlakshyA hi yathA loke vyomni chandrArkayorgatihi |
      NakshtrAnAm
      grahAnAncha tathaiva kulayoginAm ||



      In this world, the movement of the Kula Yogis are unnoticed (that is their real movement is hidden from us) just as
      the movements of the sun, the moon and the stars in sky are unnoticed.
      (68)



      Asanta iva bhAshante charantyagyA iva priye |
      PAmarA iva
      drishyante kulayoga-vishAradAh ||



      O Beloved -- The Kula Yogis speak like the bad people, roam like the
      idiots (ignorant) and appear as cheats (to others). (70)








      Muktohapi vAlavat kriret kulesho jada-vaccharet |

      Vadenn-unmatta-vavidvAna kuloyogi ||



      O Great Goddess --- although the Kulayogi is liberated, he plays like
      a child, behaves like an inert and talks like a mad man.
      (72)



      YathA hasati lokahayam jugupsati cha kutsati |
      Vilokya durato yAti
      tathA yogi pravartate ||



      The Yogis must behave in a manner so that people laugh at them, despise them, censure them and stay away from them. (73)




      So, in short, it is NOT POSSIBLE to recognize a true Jivanmukta. Because, they will always hide their true nature for sure. Moreover, their movements are also concealed from us.






      share|improve this answer















      Dattatreya, among others, is an ideal example of a Jivanmukta. He was always associated with wine etc and a filthy lifestyle.



      Why is that?



      Because Jivanmuktas don't want the masses to come to them. As simple as that. Because their touch is enough to liberate others, but not everyone is ready for liberation yet.



      Symptoms from Upanishads:




      Like Svetaketu, Rbhu, Nidagha, Vrsabha, Durvasas, Samvartaka,
      Dattatreya, and Raivataka, he has no visible emblem; he keeps his
      conduct concealed; he acts as if he were a fool, a lunatic, or a
      goblin; and, although he is sane, he behaves like a madman.



      Narada Parivrajaka Upanishad, Chapter3




      In these Upanishads, they are known as Paramhamsas. They always will hide their true identities. And, they will do everything so that people feel disgusted towards them.




      His emblem and aim concealed, he should present himself to the people
      as a madman or a simpleton even though he is a sage, and as a fool
      even though he is wise. "Let him not do anything, say anything, or
      think of anything whether it is good or bad. In this manner a sage
      shall roam like a fool, finding his delight in himself.








      Although he is sane, he behaves like a madman. He has no visible
      emblem. He keeps his conduct concealed.



      Paramhamsa Parivrajaka Upanishad, Chapter 5




      So, we can not recognize such a person neither from his conduct, nor from what he is wearing.



      Symptoms from VedAntic texts:



      I'm using YogaVAshita here.




      Dure munchati vandhumandhamiva yah sangAdbhujangAdiva |
      TrAsam yo
      vidadhAti vetti sadrisham bhogam cha rogam cha yah ||
      ... SwAntam
      yasya samam sa mangalamihAmutrApi martyohashnute ||



      He who forsakes all associations with friends like a blind, who is
      afraid of associations with the masses
      like a snake, who sees the
      pleasure (bhoga) and ailment (roga) as the same .. that wise man is
      known to be liberated always.



      YogaVAshishtaSAra, Tattva GyAna Prakarana, Verse 18




      So, another pointed highlighted here is that he will avoid all associations with masses.



      The commentator (on YogavAshishtaSArah) SwAmi DhireshAnanada comments on the nature and some features of the Jivanmuktah:




      Andhavat:



      Because he sees the world as not true he is like the blind (andha).



      Jadavat:



      Because he knows the inert nature of all the non-self entities like
      bodies etc, he is Jadavat (inert).



      Mukavat:



      Since he resides in a state which is inexplicable (anirvachya pAda),
      he is mukavat (dumb).



      Unmattavat:



      Since he wants to avoid association of all sorts, he behaves like a
      mad man and hence is Unmattavat.








      RAgadveshabhayAdinAmanurupam charannapi |
      Yohantar-vyom-datyacchah
      sa jivanmukta ucyate ||



      Who, although is clear like the Akasha from the inside, shows from
      outside, attraction towards food etc, anger towards the wicked, and
      fear (towards snakes, tigers etc) is known to be a Jivanmukta.



      Laghu YogavAshita 5.93




      Symptoms from the Tantras:



      I'm using KulArnava Tantram. In chapter 9 of this scripture, Lord Shiva describes the features of the Yogis who have attained self-realization. They are known as the Kula-Yogis in the text.




      Yogino vividhairveshairnarAnAm hitakArinah |
      Bhramanti
      prithivimetAmavigyAta-swarupinah ||



      Acting in a way that is beneficial to the human beings, these Yogis move about in different
      forms, always concealing their true nature
      . 66



      Sakrinnai-vAtma-vijyAnam kshapayanti kuleswari |

      Unmatta-muka-jada-vannivasellokamadhyatah ||



      O Goddess of the Kulas, they are never detached from the Knowledge of
      the Self but amongst the masses, they behave like a mad, a dumb or an
      inert person. (67)








      AlakshyA hi yathA loke vyomni chandrArkayorgatihi |
      NakshtrAnAm
      grahAnAncha tathaiva kulayoginAm ||



      In this world, the movement of the Kula Yogis are unnoticed (that is their real movement is hidden from us) just as
      the movements of the sun, the moon and the stars in sky are unnoticed.
      (68)



      Asanta iva bhAshante charantyagyA iva priye |
      PAmarA iva
      drishyante kulayoga-vishAradAh ||



      O Beloved -- The Kula Yogis speak like the bad people, roam like the
      idiots (ignorant) and appear as cheats (to others). (70)








      Muktohapi vAlavat kriret kulesho jada-vaccharet |

      Vadenn-unmatta-vavidvAna kuloyogi ||



      O Great Goddess --- although the Kulayogi is liberated, he plays like
      a child, behaves like an inert and talks like a mad man.
      (72)



      YathA hasati lokahayam jugupsati cha kutsati |
      Vilokya durato yAti
      tathA yogi pravartate ||



      The Yogis must behave in a manner so that people laugh at them, despise them, censure them and stay away from them. (73)




      So, in short, it is NOT POSSIBLE to recognize a true Jivanmukta. Because, they will always hide their true nature for sure. Moreover, their movements are also concealed from us.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited 2 days ago

























      answered 2 days ago









      RickrossRickross

      54.5k380192




      54.5k380192













      • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

        – The Destroyer
        yesterday



















      • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

        – The Destroyer
        yesterday

















      Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

      – The Destroyer
      yesterday





      Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.

      – The Destroyer
      yesterday











      6














      Its a very good question. The Mundaka-Upanishad (2/2/9) describes what happens after illumination :




      Bhidyate hṛdaya-granthiś chidyante sarva-saṁśayāḥ, kṣīyante cāsya karmāṇi tasmin dṛṣṭe parāvare (2.2.9):




      Meaning : The knots of the heart [ ignorance, desire and action] are broken at once by the rise of the knowledge of Brahman. All doubts are dispelled in one second. All the karmas will be destroyed. All the effects of karma that cause rebirth are burnt into ashes.



      The Sarva-Darshana-Sangraha gives the definition of a 'Jivanmukta' as




      He who has come out of the false recognition by constant practice and has realised his true Self, and is consuming his prarabdha being unattached is Jivanmukta. Reference: Satramulak Bharatiya Shaktisadhana, Upendrakumar Das, RMIC, Vol. 1, page 308.




      Sri Sri Trailaga Swami in His 'MahavAkya-RatnAvali' defines the 'Jivanmukta' as




      sa tatra paryeti jakshat kridan ramamAnah strivir vA yAnair vA jnAtivir vA vasyayair vA nopajanam smarannidam sariram//(1) meaning : The Jivanmukta eats as He likes, and roams freely, sometimes playful, soketimes still, staying with wife, cart (yAna), relatives and friends but always remaing in the Self.



      sa muktah sa pujya sa yogi sa oaramahansah sa avadhutah sa brahmanah (5), meaning that the Jivanmukta lives sometimes being worshipped by many, being recognised as a yogi or Paramahansa or Avadhuta or brahmin etc.[But He is always established in the true Self].



      Atmakrida Atmaratih kriyavAn esha brahmavidAm varisthah (12), meaning that the greatest among the Brahmavids is always playful and blissful in His true Self




      All these are only 'sva-samvedya' ie can be known only by the Illumined Soul. None can know it seeing Him or Her from outside.Its known within.



      The realised souls very often roam around like Jada or an unmatta or a vala or a pisacha.



      However to a deserving aspirant He discloses His True Self. Tantra mentions several qualities of a Real Guru that was in fact observed in the lives of the great saints you mentioned -- Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Ramana Maharshi.





      1. ye dattvA sahajAnandam haranti indriyajam sukham/sevyAs te guravah sishyair anye tyAjyah pratArakah (Kularnava-Tantra 13/97). Meaning : The real Gurus remove all attractions to sensual pleasures of the disciples by pouring in them supreme bliss.They alone should be worshipped by the disciples and others are just cheaters.




      2. dipa-darshana-mAtrena pranashyati yathA tamah/sadguror darshanAd devi tathA jnanam prakashate // (Ibid. 13/116). Meaning : Just like a lamp removes darkness instantly, just a vision of a (real) Guru jnana appears [in the heart of the disciple].




      3. yathA bahnisamipastham navanitam viliyate/ tathA pApam viliyate sadAcharya-samipatah// (Ibid.13/13). Meaning : As butter melts instantly when taken near fire, a Real Guru destoys all the sins of a disciple.




      But all these would be revealed only to a deserving disciple .Tantra also mentions that illumination of someone can not understood by anyone else:




      jnAnam Atmaa eva chidrupo jneyam Atmaiva chinmayah/vijnAta svyam eva AtmA yo jAnAti sa Atmabit. (Mahanirvana-Tantra 14/139).




      Sri Krishna in Gita (2/55-61) provides the 'lakshana'-s of a 'Sthita-prajna'. Some of these may be revealed to those who can mix with them intimately. Gita also gives other characteristics of an illumined soul beautifully:




      12.13 He who is not hateful towards any creature, who is friendly and compassionate, who has no idea of 'mine' and the idea of egoism, who is the same under sorrow and happiness, who is forgiving.




      So anyone having an iota of desire or secterianism, bigotry or hatred is miles away from illumination. An aspirant must examine his Guru very carefully before becoming a disciple according to our scriptures. Also, just as a tree is known by its fruits, a real Guru can be known by His disciples.Please go through the detailed biographies of the close devotees/disciples of Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Ramana Maharshi or any other great saint and you will definitely get a clear idea about their Guru-s.



      UPDATE



      Do the liberated souls keep away from the masses always?



      Sri Ramakrishna in His Kathamrita explains this. There are two types of the Paramahansas : NirAkAravAdi and sAkAravadi. He says:




      The NirakaravAdis wpare 'Aptasaara' -- they are not bothered about the others. But the SAkAravapAdi Paramahansas want to give the share of the supreme bliss to others. Some eat mango and wipe his face.Some enjoy it eating and also distributing to others. Some throw away the instruments of digging well after the well is ready. Others keep the instruments for the benefit of the others.




      So it is love that matters.He also mentioned that one can train the masss if He is ordered to do so by the Divine.



      It is therefore ultimately the grace of God that some Jivanmuktas remain in the society to prove that God can in fact be realised. The scriptures also say that who inspite of being able to guide others do not help others is not the dearest to God.



      As the Viveka-Chudamoni says




      sAntA mahAnto nivasanti santo/ vasantabat lokahitam charantah // meaning that gentle-natured great saints live by doing welfare of the masses just like the cool breeze of the spring season.




      The above makes clear that the real realised souls do not always stay away from the masses.






      share|improve this answer






























        6














        Its a very good question. The Mundaka-Upanishad (2/2/9) describes what happens after illumination :




        Bhidyate hṛdaya-granthiś chidyante sarva-saṁśayāḥ, kṣīyante cāsya karmāṇi tasmin dṛṣṭe parāvare (2.2.9):




        Meaning : The knots of the heart [ ignorance, desire and action] are broken at once by the rise of the knowledge of Brahman. All doubts are dispelled in one second. All the karmas will be destroyed. All the effects of karma that cause rebirth are burnt into ashes.



        The Sarva-Darshana-Sangraha gives the definition of a 'Jivanmukta' as




        He who has come out of the false recognition by constant practice and has realised his true Self, and is consuming his prarabdha being unattached is Jivanmukta. Reference: Satramulak Bharatiya Shaktisadhana, Upendrakumar Das, RMIC, Vol. 1, page 308.




        Sri Sri Trailaga Swami in His 'MahavAkya-RatnAvali' defines the 'Jivanmukta' as




        sa tatra paryeti jakshat kridan ramamAnah strivir vA yAnair vA jnAtivir vA vasyayair vA nopajanam smarannidam sariram//(1) meaning : The Jivanmukta eats as He likes, and roams freely, sometimes playful, soketimes still, staying with wife, cart (yAna), relatives and friends but always remaing in the Self.



        sa muktah sa pujya sa yogi sa oaramahansah sa avadhutah sa brahmanah (5), meaning that the Jivanmukta lives sometimes being worshipped by many, being recognised as a yogi or Paramahansa or Avadhuta or brahmin etc.[But He is always established in the true Self].



        Atmakrida Atmaratih kriyavAn esha brahmavidAm varisthah (12), meaning that the greatest among the Brahmavids is always playful and blissful in His true Self




        All these are only 'sva-samvedya' ie can be known only by the Illumined Soul. None can know it seeing Him or Her from outside.Its known within.



        The realised souls very often roam around like Jada or an unmatta or a vala or a pisacha.



        However to a deserving aspirant He discloses His True Self. Tantra mentions several qualities of a Real Guru that was in fact observed in the lives of the great saints you mentioned -- Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Ramana Maharshi.





        1. ye dattvA sahajAnandam haranti indriyajam sukham/sevyAs te guravah sishyair anye tyAjyah pratArakah (Kularnava-Tantra 13/97). Meaning : The real Gurus remove all attractions to sensual pleasures of the disciples by pouring in them supreme bliss.They alone should be worshipped by the disciples and others are just cheaters.




        2. dipa-darshana-mAtrena pranashyati yathA tamah/sadguror darshanAd devi tathA jnanam prakashate // (Ibid. 13/116). Meaning : Just like a lamp removes darkness instantly, just a vision of a (real) Guru jnana appears [in the heart of the disciple].




        3. yathA bahnisamipastham navanitam viliyate/ tathA pApam viliyate sadAcharya-samipatah// (Ibid.13/13). Meaning : As butter melts instantly when taken near fire, a Real Guru destoys all the sins of a disciple.




        But all these would be revealed only to a deserving disciple .Tantra also mentions that illumination of someone can not understood by anyone else:




        jnAnam Atmaa eva chidrupo jneyam Atmaiva chinmayah/vijnAta svyam eva AtmA yo jAnAti sa Atmabit. (Mahanirvana-Tantra 14/139).




        Sri Krishna in Gita (2/55-61) provides the 'lakshana'-s of a 'Sthita-prajna'. Some of these may be revealed to those who can mix with them intimately. Gita also gives other characteristics of an illumined soul beautifully:




        12.13 He who is not hateful towards any creature, who is friendly and compassionate, who has no idea of 'mine' and the idea of egoism, who is the same under sorrow and happiness, who is forgiving.




        So anyone having an iota of desire or secterianism, bigotry or hatred is miles away from illumination. An aspirant must examine his Guru very carefully before becoming a disciple according to our scriptures. Also, just as a tree is known by its fruits, a real Guru can be known by His disciples.Please go through the detailed biographies of the close devotees/disciples of Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Ramana Maharshi or any other great saint and you will definitely get a clear idea about their Guru-s.



        UPDATE



        Do the liberated souls keep away from the masses always?



        Sri Ramakrishna in His Kathamrita explains this. There are two types of the Paramahansas : NirAkAravAdi and sAkAravadi. He says:




        The NirakaravAdis wpare 'Aptasaara' -- they are not bothered about the others. But the SAkAravapAdi Paramahansas want to give the share of the supreme bliss to others. Some eat mango and wipe his face.Some enjoy it eating and also distributing to others. Some throw away the instruments of digging well after the well is ready. Others keep the instruments for the benefit of the others.




        So it is love that matters.He also mentioned that one can train the masss if He is ordered to do so by the Divine.



        It is therefore ultimately the grace of God that some Jivanmuktas remain in the society to prove that God can in fact be realised. The scriptures also say that who inspite of being able to guide others do not help others is not the dearest to God.



        As the Viveka-Chudamoni says




        sAntA mahAnto nivasanti santo/ vasantabat lokahitam charantah // meaning that gentle-natured great saints live by doing welfare of the masses just like the cool breeze of the spring season.




        The above makes clear that the real realised souls do not always stay away from the masses.






        share|improve this answer




























          6












          6








          6







          Its a very good question. The Mundaka-Upanishad (2/2/9) describes what happens after illumination :




          Bhidyate hṛdaya-granthiś chidyante sarva-saṁśayāḥ, kṣīyante cāsya karmāṇi tasmin dṛṣṭe parāvare (2.2.9):




          Meaning : The knots of the heart [ ignorance, desire and action] are broken at once by the rise of the knowledge of Brahman. All doubts are dispelled in one second. All the karmas will be destroyed. All the effects of karma that cause rebirth are burnt into ashes.



          The Sarva-Darshana-Sangraha gives the definition of a 'Jivanmukta' as




          He who has come out of the false recognition by constant practice and has realised his true Self, and is consuming his prarabdha being unattached is Jivanmukta. Reference: Satramulak Bharatiya Shaktisadhana, Upendrakumar Das, RMIC, Vol. 1, page 308.




          Sri Sri Trailaga Swami in His 'MahavAkya-RatnAvali' defines the 'Jivanmukta' as




          sa tatra paryeti jakshat kridan ramamAnah strivir vA yAnair vA jnAtivir vA vasyayair vA nopajanam smarannidam sariram//(1) meaning : The Jivanmukta eats as He likes, and roams freely, sometimes playful, soketimes still, staying with wife, cart (yAna), relatives and friends but always remaing in the Self.



          sa muktah sa pujya sa yogi sa oaramahansah sa avadhutah sa brahmanah (5), meaning that the Jivanmukta lives sometimes being worshipped by many, being recognised as a yogi or Paramahansa or Avadhuta or brahmin etc.[But He is always established in the true Self].



          Atmakrida Atmaratih kriyavAn esha brahmavidAm varisthah (12), meaning that the greatest among the Brahmavids is always playful and blissful in His true Self




          All these are only 'sva-samvedya' ie can be known only by the Illumined Soul. None can know it seeing Him or Her from outside.Its known within.



          The realised souls very often roam around like Jada or an unmatta or a vala or a pisacha.



          However to a deserving aspirant He discloses His True Self. Tantra mentions several qualities of a Real Guru that was in fact observed in the lives of the great saints you mentioned -- Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Ramana Maharshi.





          1. ye dattvA sahajAnandam haranti indriyajam sukham/sevyAs te guravah sishyair anye tyAjyah pratArakah (Kularnava-Tantra 13/97). Meaning : The real Gurus remove all attractions to sensual pleasures of the disciples by pouring in them supreme bliss.They alone should be worshipped by the disciples and others are just cheaters.




          2. dipa-darshana-mAtrena pranashyati yathA tamah/sadguror darshanAd devi tathA jnanam prakashate // (Ibid. 13/116). Meaning : Just like a lamp removes darkness instantly, just a vision of a (real) Guru jnana appears [in the heart of the disciple].




          3. yathA bahnisamipastham navanitam viliyate/ tathA pApam viliyate sadAcharya-samipatah// (Ibid.13/13). Meaning : As butter melts instantly when taken near fire, a Real Guru destoys all the sins of a disciple.




          But all these would be revealed only to a deserving disciple .Tantra also mentions that illumination of someone can not understood by anyone else:




          jnAnam Atmaa eva chidrupo jneyam Atmaiva chinmayah/vijnAta svyam eva AtmA yo jAnAti sa Atmabit. (Mahanirvana-Tantra 14/139).




          Sri Krishna in Gita (2/55-61) provides the 'lakshana'-s of a 'Sthita-prajna'. Some of these may be revealed to those who can mix with them intimately. Gita also gives other characteristics of an illumined soul beautifully:




          12.13 He who is not hateful towards any creature, who is friendly and compassionate, who has no idea of 'mine' and the idea of egoism, who is the same under sorrow and happiness, who is forgiving.




          So anyone having an iota of desire or secterianism, bigotry or hatred is miles away from illumination. An aspirant must examine his Guru very carefully before becoming a disciple according to our scriptures. Also, just as a tree is known by its fruits, a real Guru can be known by His disciples.Please go through the detailed biographies of the close devotees/disciples of Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Ramana Maharshi or any other great saint and you will definitely get a clear idea about their Guru-s.



          UPDATE



          Do the liberated souls keep away from the masses always?



          Sri Ramakrishna in His Kathamrita explains this. There are two types of the Paramahansas : NirAkAravAdi and sAkAravadi. He says:




          The NirakaravAdis wpare 'Aptasaara' -- they are not bothered about the others. But the SAkAravapAdi Paramahansas want to give the share of the supreme bliss to others. Some eat mango and wipe his face.Some enjoy it eating and also distributing to others. Some throw away the instruments of digging well after the well is ready. Others keep the instruments for the benefit of the others.




          So it is love that matters.He also mentioned that one can train the masss if He is ordered to do so by the Divine.



          It is therefore ultimately the grace of God that some Jivanmuktas remain in the society to prove that God can in fact be realised. The scriptures also say that who inspite of being able to guide others do not help others is not the dearest to God.



          As the Viveka-Chudamoni says




          sAntA mahAnto nivasanti santo/ vasantabat lokahitam charantah // meaning that gentle-natured great saints live by doing welfare of the masses just like the cool breeze of the spring season.




          The above makes clear that the real realised souls do not always stay away from the masses.






          share|improve this answer















          Its a very good question. The Mundaka-Upanishad (2/2/9) describes what happens after illumination :




          Bhidyate hṛdaya-granthiś chidyante sarva-saṁśayāḥ, kṣīyante cāsya karmāṇi tasmin dṛṣṭe parāvare (2.2.9):




          Meaning : The knots of the heart [ ignorance, desire and action] are broken at once by the rise of the knowledge of Brahman. All doubts are dispelled in one second. All the karmas will be destroyed. All the effects of karma that cause rebirth are burnt into ashes.



          The Sarva-Darshana-Sangraha gives the definition of a 'Jivanmukta' as




          He who has come out of the false recognition by constant practice and has realised his true Self, and is consuming his prarabdha being unattached is Jivanmukta. Reference: Satramulak Bharatiya Shaktisadhana, Upendrakumar Das, RMIC, Vol. 1, page 308.




          Sri Sri Trailaga Swami in His 'MahavAkya-RatnAvali' defines the 'Jivanmukta' as




          sa tatra paryeti jakshat kridan ramamAnah strivir vA yAnair vA jnAtivir vA vasyayair vA nopajanam smarannidam sariram//(1) meaning : The Jivanmukta eats as He likes, and roams freely, sometimes playful, soketimes still, staying with wife, cart (yAna), relatives and friends but always remaing in the Self.



          sa muktah sa pujya sa yogi sa oaramahansah sa avadhutah sa brahmanah (5), meaning that the Jivanmukta lives sometimes being worshipped by many, being recognised as a yogi or Paramahansa or Avadhuta or brahmin etc.[But He is always established in the true Self].



          Atmakrida Atmaratih kriyavAn esha brahmavidAm varisthah (12), meaning that the greatest among the Brahmavids is always playful and blissful in His true Self




          All these are only 'sva-samvedya' ie can be known only by the Illumined Soul. None can know it seeing Him or Her from outside.Its known within.



          The realised souls very often roam around like Jada or an unmatta or a vala or a pisacha.



          However to a deserving aspirant He discloses His True Self. Tantra mentions several qualities of a Real Guru that was in fact observed in the lives of the great saints you mentioned -- Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Ramana Maharshi.





          1. ye dattvA sahajAnandam haranti indriyajam sukham/sevyAs te guravah sishyair anye tyAjyah pratArakah (Kularnava-Tantra 13/97). Meaning : The real Gurus remove all attractions to sensual pleasures of the disciples by pouring in them supreme bliss.They alone should be worshipped by the disciples and others are just cheaters.




          2. dipa-darshana-mAtrena pranashyati yathA tamah/sadguror darshanAd devi tathA jnanam prakashate // (Ibid. 13/116). Meaning : Just like a lamp removes darkness instantly, just a vision of a (real) Guru jnana appears [in the heart of the disciple].




          3. yathA bahnisamipastham navanitam viliyate/ tathA pApam viliyate sadAcharya-samipatah// (Ibid.13/13). Meaning : As butter melts instantly when taken near fire, a Real Guru destoys all the sins of a disciple.




          But all these would be revealed only to a deserving disciple .Tantra also mentions that illumination of someone can not understood by anyone else:




          jnAnam Atmaa eva chidrupo jneyam Atmaiva chinmayah/vijnAta svyam eva AtmA yo jAnAti sa Atmabit. (Mahanirvana-Tantra 14/139).




          Sri Krishna in Gita (2/55-61) provides the 'lakshana'-s of a 'Sthita-prajna'. Some of these may be revealed to those who can mix with them intimately. Gita also gives other characteristics of an illumined soul beautifully:




          12.13 He who is not hateful towards any creature, who is friendly and compassionate, who has no idea of 'mine' and the idea of egoism, who is the same under sorrow and happiness, who is forgiving.




          So anyone having an iota of desire or secterianism, bigotry or hatred is miles away from illumination. An aspirant must examine his Guru very carefully before becoming a disciple according to our scriptures. Also, just as a tree is known by its fruits, a real Guru can be known by His disciples.Please go through the detailed biographies of the close devotees/disciples of Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Ramana Maharshi or any other great saint and you will definitely get a clear idea about their Guru-s.



          UPDATE



          Do the liberated souls keep away from the masses always?



          Sri Ramakrishna in His Kathamrita explains this. There are two types of the Paramahansas : NirAkAravAdi and sAkAravadi. He says:




          The NirakaravAdis wpare 'Aptasaara' -- they are not bothered about the others. But the SAkAravapAdi Paramahansas want to give the share of the supreme bliss to others. Some eat mango and wipe his face.Some enjoy it eating and also distributing to others. Some throw away the instruments of digging well after the well is ready. Others keep the instruments for the benefit of the others.




          So it is love that matters.He also mentioned that one can train the masss if He is ordered to do so by the Divine.



          It is therefore ultimately the grace of God that some Jivanmuktas remain in the society to prove that God can in fact be realised. The scriptures also say that who inspite of being able to guide others do not help others is not the dearest to God.



          As the Viveka-Chudamoni says




          sAntA mahAnto nivasanti santo/ vasantabat lokahitam charantah // meaning that gentle-natured great saints live by doing welfare of the masses just like the cool breeze of the spring season.




          The above makes clear that the real realised souls do not always stay away from the masses.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited yesterday

























          answered 2 days ago









          PratimaputraPratimaputra

          9,178745




          9,178745























              3














              Scriptures describes both type of people.



              Bhagavata describes Rsibhadeva, Shukadeva, Avadutha brahmana who were away from society and appeared like madmen.



              The story of Avadhuta Brahmana comes in the section where Prahlada meets him in a forest where he was not understood by anyone.



              It's Narada describing symptoms of saintly person with respect to accepting sanyasa asrama in 13th Chapter of 7th Canto.




              (1) S'rî Nârada said: 'Someone capable [of what I described before],
              should wander around from place to place without any form of material
              attachment and, ultimately with nothing but his body, not stay in any
              village longer than a single night [see also the story of King
              Rishabha 5.5: 28]. (2) If the renunciate [sannyâsî] wears clothing at
              all, it should be nothing but some covering for his private parts.
              Except for in case of distress, he should not take to matters he has
              given up; he normally is characterized by nothing but the marks of
              renunciation: his rod [danda] and such. (3) With Nârâyana as his
              refuge he, living on alms only, satisfied within, all alone and not
              depending on anyone or anything, moves around in perfect peace as a
              well-wisher to all living beings. (4) He should see this universe of
              cause and effect as existing within the everlasting Self in the beyond
              and see the Supreme Absolute itself as pervading the world of cause
              and effect everywhere [compare B.G. 9: 4]. (5) The soul moves from
              waking to sleeping to the dreaming in between [see also 6.16: 53-54].
              Because of that someone of self-awareness considers the states of
              being bound - of being conditioned - and being liberated as in fact
              being nothing but an illusion. (6) He should not rejoice in the
              certainty of the death of the body, nor in the uncertainty of its
              life, he instead should observe the supreme [command] of Time that
              rules the manifestation and disappearance of all living beings. (7) He
              [the renunciate] should not be fixed on time bound literatures, nor
              depend on a career. Accusations and pedantry he should give up and he
              should not side with group bound conjecture, opinion and speculation
              [politics]. (8) He should not seek followers, nor should he engage in
              diverse literary exercises or read such writings. He should not
              subsist on lecturing nor set up an enterprise [for building temples
              e.g.]. (9) A peaceful and equal minded renunciate does not necessarily
              have to adopt the symbols of his spiritual position [the danda etc. of
              his âs'rama *], he as a great soul may just as well abandon them. (10)
              Even though he externally may not directly be recognized as a
              renunciate, he is clear in his purpose. Such a saintly person may feel
              the need to present himself in society like a restless youth, or,
              having been a scholar, present himself as a less intelligent man.



              (11) As an example of such a hidden identity one [often] recites a
              very old story about a conversation between Prahlâda and a saintly man
              who lived like a python.
              (12-13) Prahlâda, the favorite of the Supreme
              Lord, once met such a saint when he with a few royal associates was
              traveling around the world in an effort to understand the motives of
              the people. At the bank of the Kâverî river on a slope of the mountain
              Sahya, he witnessed the purity and profundity of the spiritual
              radiance of a man who was lying on the ground with his entire body
              covered with dirt and dust. (14) From what he did, how he looked, from
              what he said as also by his age, occupation and other marks of
              identity, the people could not decide whether or not that man was
              someone they knew.
              (15) After paying his respects and honoring him by,
              according to the rules, touching his lotus feet with his head, the
              great Asura devotee of the Lord, eager to know him, asked the
              following question. (16-17) 'I see you are maintaining quite a fat
              body, like you are someone eager for money. People who always worry
              about an income, are surely of sense gratification. Wealthy people,
              they who enjoy this world and think of nothing else, therefore
              [easily] become as fat as this body of yours. (18) You, lying down
              doing nothing, oh man of the spirit, clearly have no money for sense
              enjoyment. How can, without you enjoying your senses, your body be
              this fat, oh learned one? Excuse me for asking this, but can you
              please tell us that? (19) Despite your being so learned, skilled and
              intelligent and your talent to speak nicely and your inner balance,
              you lie down observing how the people are engaged in their work!'




              Thus, paramahamsas who accepted ajaghara(python) style of living in life of renunciation are very difficult to be identified.



              It also described Prahlada who wanted to stay and deliver the common masses of people from material life.




              SB 7.9.43: Oh Supreme One, because my mind is absorbed in the singing
              and proclaiming of Your sweet ocean of glories, I am free from worries
              about the hard to cross Vaitaranî [that is this world]. I am more
              concerned about those fools who, missing the liberation in carrying
              the load of their sensual interest, are making plans in favor of
              illusory forms of happiness and dutifulness.



              SB 7.9.44: Oh Godhead, saints ambitious for their own salvation
              generally in silence wander in remote places, not so much interested
              in a life for the sake of others. But I, unlike them, do not want to
              ignore my suffering fellow men. I do not desire liberation for myself
              alone. I cannot accept it to see other people wander around oblivious
              of this shelter of Yours.




              Also, we get a list of 12 authorities on spiritual knowledge out of which only 4 Kumaras and Shukadeva seem to follow path of renunciation.




              SB 6.3.20-21: Lord Brahmâ, Nârada, Lord S'iva, the four Kumâras,
              Kapila, Manu, Prahlâda, Janaka, Bhîshma, Bali, the son of Vyâsa
              [S'uka] and I myself [Yamarâja]; we, these twelve [mahâjanas], have
              knowledge of the bhâgavata-dharma [the emancipation in surrender to
              the Supreme Lord] my dear servants, that is most confidential,
              transcendental and hard to grasp. He who understands it achieves
              eternal life.




              It seems it depends on individual and Lord's will.






              share|improve this answer










              New contributor




              Krishna Varna is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.

























                3














                Scriptures describes both type of people.



                Bhagavata describes Rsibhadeva, Shukadeva, Avadutha brahmana who were away from society and appeared like madmen.



                The story of Avadhuta Brahmana comes in the section where Prahlada meets him in a forest where he was not understood by anyone.



                It's Narada describing symptoms of saintly person with respect to accepting sanyasa asrama in 13th Chapter of 7th Canto.




                (1) S'rî Nârada said: 'Someone capable [of what I described before],
                should wander around from place to place without any form of material
                attachment and, ultimately with nothing but his body, not stay in any
                village longer than a single night [see also the story of King
                Rishabha 5.5: 28]. (2) If the renunciate [sannyâsî] wears clothing at
                all, it should be nothing but some covering for his private parts.
                Except for in case of distress, he should not take to matters he has
                given up; he normally is characterized by nothing but the marks of
                renunciation: his rod [danda] and such. (3) With Nârâyana as his
                refuge he, living on alms only, satisfied within, all alone and not
                depending on anyone or anything, moves around in perfect peace as a
                well-wisher to all living beings. (4) He should see this universe of
                cause and effect as existing within the everlasting Self in the beyond
                and see the Supreme Absolute itself as pervading the world of cause
                and effect everywhere [compare B.G. 9: 4]. (5) The soul moves from
                waking to sleeping to the dreaming in between [see also 6.16: 53-54].
                Because of that someone of self-awareness considers the states of
                being bound - of being conditioned - and being liberated as in fact
                being nothing but an illusion. (6) He should not rejoice in the
                certainty of the death of the body, nor in the uncertainty of its
                life, he instead should observe the supreme [command] of Time that
                rules the manifestation and disappearance of all living beings. (7) He
                [the renunciate] should not be fixed on time bound literatures, nor
                depend on a career. Accusations and pedantry he should give up and he
                should not side with group bound conjecture, opinion and speculation
                [politics]. (8) He should not seek followers, nor should he engage in
                diverse literary exercises or read such writings. He should not
                subsist on lecturing nor set up an enterprise [for building temples
                e.g.]. (9) A peaceful and equal minded renunciate does not necessarily
                have to adopt the symbols of his spiritual position [the danda etc. of
                his âs'rama *], he as a great soul may just as well abandon them. (10)
                Even though he externally may not directly be recognized as a
                renunciate, he is clear in his purpose. Such a saintly person may feel
                the need to present himself in society like a restless youth, or,
                having been a scholar, present himself as a less intelligent man.



                (11) As an example of such a hidden identity one [often] recites a
                very old story about a conversation between Prahlâda and a saintly man
                who lived like a python.
                (12-13) Prahlâda, the favorite of the Supreme
                Lord, once met such a saint when he with a few royal associates was
                traveling around the world in an effort to understand the motives of
                the people. At the bank of the Kâverî river on a slope of the mountain
                Sahya, he witnessed the purity and profundity of the spiritual
                radiance of a man who was lying on the ground with his entire body
                covered with dirt and dust. (14) From what he did, how he looked, from
                what he said as also by his age, occupation and other marks of
                identity, the people could not decide whether or not that man was
                someone they knew.
                (15) After paying his respects and honoring him by,
                according to the rules, touching his lotus feet with his head, the
                great Asura devotee of the Lord, eager to know him, asked the
                following question. (16-17) 'I see you are maintaining quite a fat
                body, like you are someone eager for money. People who always worry
                about an income, are surely of sense gratification. Wealthy people,
                they who enjoy this world and think of nothing else, therefore
                [easily] become as fat as this body of yours. (18) You, lying down
                doing nothing, oh man of the spirit, clearly have no money for sense
                enjoyment. How can, without you enjoying your senses, your body be
                this fat, oh learned one? Excuse me for asking this, but can you
                please tell us that? (19) Despite your being so learned, skilled and
                intelligent and your talent to speak nicely and your inner balance,
                you lie down observing how the people are engaged in their work!'




                Thus, paramahamsas who accepted ajaghara(python) style of living in life of renunciation are very difficult to be identified.



                It also described Prahlada who wanted to stay and deliver the common masses of people from material life.




                SB 7.9.43: Oh Supreme One, because my mind is absorbed in the singing
                and proclaiming of Your sweet ocean of glories, I am free from worries
                about the hard to cross Vaitaranî [that is this world]. I am more
                concerned about those fools who, missing the liberation in carrying
                the load of their sensual interest, are making plans in favor of
                illusory forms of happiness and dutifulness.



                SB 7.9.44: Oh Godhead, saints ambitious for their own salvation
                generally in silence wander in remote places, not so much interested
                in a life for the sake of others. But I, unlike them, do not want to
                ignore my suffering fellow men. I do not desire liberation for myself
                alone. I cannot accept it to see other people wander around oblivious
                of this shelter of Yours.




                Also, we get a list of 12 authorities on spiritual knowledge out of which only 4 Kumaras and Shukadeva seem to follow path of renunciation.




                SB 6.3.20-21: Lord Brahmâ, Nârada, Lord S'iva, the four Kumâras,
                Kapila, Manu, Prahlâda, Janaka, Bhîshma, Bali, the son of Vyâsa
                [S'uka] and I myself [Yamarâja]; we, these twelve [mahâjanas], have
                knowledge of the bhâgavata-dharma [the emancipation in surrender to
                the Supreme Lord] my dear servants, that is most confidential,
                transcendental and hard to grasp. He who understands it achieves
                eternal life.




                It seems it depends on individual and Lord's will.






                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                Krishna Varna is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.























                  3












                  3








                  3







                  Scriptures describes both type of people.



                  Bhagavata describes Rsibhadeva, Shukadeva, Avadutha brahmana who were away from society and appeared like madmen.



                  The story of Avadhuta Brahmana comes in the section where Prahlada meets him in a forest where he was not understood by anyone.



                  It's Narada describing symptoms of saintly person with respect to accepting sanyasa asrama in 13th Chapter of 7th Canto.




                  (1) S'rî Nârada said: 'Someone capable [of what I described before],
                  should wander around from place to place without any form of material
                  attachment and, ultimately with nothing but his body, not stay in any
                  village longer than a single night [see also the story of King
                  Rishabha 5.5: 28]. (2) If the renunciate [sannyâsî] wears clothing at
                  all, it should be nothing but some covering for his private parts.
                  Except for in case of distress, he should not take to matters he has
                  given up; he normally is characterized by nothing but the marks of
                  renunciation: his rod [danda] and such. (3) With Nârâyana as his
                  refuge he, living on alms only, satisfied within, all alone and not
                  depending on anyone or anything, moves around in perfect peace as a
                  well-wisher to all living beings. (4) He should see this universe of
                  cause and effect as existing within the everlasting Self in the beyond
                  and see the Supreme Absolute itself as pervading the world of cause
                  and effect everywhere [compare B.G. 9: 4]. (5) The soul moves from
                  waking to sleeping to the dreaming in between [see also 6.16: 53-54].
                  Because of that someone of self-awareness considers the states of
                  being bound - of being conditioned - and being liberated as in fact
                  being nothing but an illusion. (6) He should not rejoice in the
                  certainty of the death of the body, nor in the uncertainty of its
                  life, he instead should observe the supreme [command] of Time that
                  rules the manifestation and disappearance of all living beings. (7) He
                  [the renunciate] should not be fixed on time bound literatures, nor
                  depend on a career. Accusations and pedantry he should give up and he
                  should not side with group bound conjecture, opinion and speculation
                  [politics]. (8) He should not seek followers, nor should he engage in
                  diverse literary exercises or read such writings. He should not
                  subsist on lecturing nor set up an enterprise [for building temples
                  e.g.]. (9) A peaceful and equal minded renunciate does not necessarily
                  have to adopt the symbols of his spiritual position [the danda etc. of
                  his âs'rama *], he as a great soul may just as well abandon them. (10)
                  Even though he externally may not directly be recognized as a
                  renunciate, he is clear in his purpose. Such a saintly person may feel
                  the need to present himself in society like a restless youth, or,
                  having been a scholar, present himself as a less intelligent man.



                  (11) As an example of such a hidden identity one [often] recites a
                  very old story about a conversation between Prahlâda and a saintly man
                  who lived like a python.
                  (12-13) Prahlâda, the favorite of the Supreme
                  Lord, once met such a saint when he with a few royal associates was
                  traveling around the world in an effort to understand the motives of
                  the people. At the bank of the Kâverî river on a slope of the mountain
                  Sahya, he witnessed the purity and profundity of the spiritual
                  radiance of a man who was lying on the ground with his entire body
                  covered with dirt and dust. (14) From what he did, how he looked, from
                  what he said as also by his age, occupation and other marks of
                  identity, the people could not decide whether or not that man was
                  someone they knew.
                  (15) After paying his respects and honoring him by,
                  according to the rules, touching his lotus feet with his head, the
                  great Asura devotee of the Lord, eager to know him, asked the
                  following question. (16-17) 'I see you are maintaining quite a fat
                  body, like you are someone eager for money. People who always worry
                  about an income, are surely of sense gratification. Wealthy people,
                  they who enjoy this world and think of nothing else, therefore
                  [easily] become as fat as this body of yours. (18) You, lying down
                  doing nothing, oh man of the spirit, clearly have no money for sense
                  enjoyment. How can, without you enjoying your senses, your body be
                  this fat, oh learned one? Excuse me for asking this, but can you
                  please tell us that? (19) Despite your being so learned, skilled and
                  intelligent and your talent to speak nicely and your inner balance,
                  you lie down observing how the people are engaged in their work!'




                  Thus, paramahamsas who accepted ajaghara(python) style of living in life of renunciation are very difficult to be identified.



                  It also described Prahlada who wanted to stay and deliver the common masses of people from material life.




                  SB 7.9.43: Oh Supreme One, because my mind is absorbed in the singing
                  and proclaiming of Your sweet ocean of glories, I am free from worries
                  about the hard to cross Vaitaranî [that is this world]. I am more
                  concerned about those fools who, missing the liberation in carrying
                  the load of their sensual interest, are making plans in favor of
                  illusory forms of happiness and dutifulness.



                  SB 7.9.44: Oh Godhead, saints ambitious for their own salvation
                  generally in silence wander in remote places, not so much interested
                  in a life for the sake of others. But I, unlike them, do not want to
                  ignore my suffering fellow men. I do not desire liberation for myself
                  alone. I cannot accept it to see other people wander around oblivious
                  of this shelter of Yours.




                  Also, we get a list of 12 authorities on spiritual knowledge out of which only 4 Kumaras and Shukadeva seem to follow path of renunciation.




                  SB 6.3.20-21: Lord Brahmâ, Nârada, Lord S'iva, the four Kumâras,
                  Kapila, Manu, Prahlâda, Janaka, Bhîshma, Bali, the son of Vyâsa
                  [S'uka] and I myself [Yamarâja]; we, these twelve [mahâjanas], have
                  knowledge of the bhâgavata-dharma [the emancipation in surrender to
                  the Supreme Lord] my dear servants, that is most confidential,
                  transcendental and hard to grasp. He who understands it achieves
                  eternal life.




                  It seems it depends on individual and Lord's will.






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                  Scriptures describes both type of people.



                  Bhagavata describes Rsibhadeva, Shukadeva, Avadutha brahmana who were away from society and appeared like madmen.



                  The story of Avadhuta Brahmana comes in the section where Prahlada meets him in a forest where he was not understood by anyone.



                  It's Narada describing symptoms of saintly person with respect to accepting sanyasa asrama in 13th Chapter of 7th Canto.




                  (1) S'rî Nârada said: 'Someone capable [of what I described before],
                  should wander around from place to place without any form of material
                  attachment and, ultimately with nothing but his body, not stay in any
                  village longer than a single night [see also the story of King
                  Rishabha 5.5: 28]. (2) If the renunciate [sannyâsî] wears clothing at
                  all, it should be nothing but some covering for his private parts.
                  Except for in case of distress, he should not take to matters he has
                  given up; he normally is characterized by nothing but the marks of
                  renunciation: his rod [danda] and such. (3) With Nârâyana as his
                  refuge he, living on alms only, satisfied within, all alone and not
                  depending on anyone or anything, moves around in perfect peace as a
                  well-wisher to all living beings. (4) He should see this universe of
                  cause and effect as existing within the everlasting Self in the beyond
                  and see the Supreme Absolute itself as pervading the world of cause
                  and effect everywhere [compare B.G. 9: 4]. (5) The soul moves from
                  waking to sleeping to the dreaming in between [see also 6.16: 53-54].
                  Because of that someone of self-awareness considers the states of
                  being bound - of being conditioned - and being liberated as in fact
                  being nothing but an illusion. (6) He should not rejoice in the
                  certainty of the death of the body, nor in the uncertainty of its
                  life, he instead should observe the supreme [command] of Time that
                  rules the manifestation and disappearance of all living beings. (7) He
                  [the renunciate] should not be fixed on time bound literatures, nor
                  depend on a career. Accusations and pedantry he should give up and he
                  should not side with group bound conjecture, opinion and speculation
                  [politics]. (8) He should not seek followers, nor should he engage in
                  diverse literary exercises or read such writings. He should not
                  subsist on lecturing nor set up an enterprise [for building temples
                  e.g.]. (9) A peaceful and equal minded renunciate does not necessarily
                  have to adopt the symbols of his spiritual position [the danda etc. of
                  his âs'rama *], he as a great soul may just as well abandon them. (10)
                  Even though he externally may not directly be recognized as a
                  renunciate, he is clear in his purpose. Such a saintly person may feel
                  the need to present himself in society like a restless youth, or,
                  having been a scholar, present himself as a less intelligent man.



                  (11) As an example of such a hidden identity one [often] recites a
                  very old story about a conversation between Prahlâda and a saintly man
                  who lived like a python.
                  (12-13) Prahlâda, the favorite of the Supreme
                  Lord, once met such a saint when he with a few royal associates was
                  traveling around the world in an effort to understand the motives of
                  the people. At the bank of the Kâverî river on a slope of the mountain
                  Sahya, he witnessed the purity and profundity of the spiritual
                  radiance of a man who was lying on the ground with his entire body
                  covered with dirt and dust. (14) From what he did, how he looked, from
                  what he said as also by his age, occupation and other marks of
                  identity, the people could not decide whether or not that man was
                  someone they knew.
                  (15) After paying his respects and honoring him by,
                  according to the rules, touching his lotus feet with his head, the
                  great Asura devotee of the Lord, eager to know him, asked the
                  following question. (16-17) 'I see you are maintaining quite a fat
                  body, like you are someone eager for money. People who always worry
                  about an income, are surely of sense gratification. Wealthy people,
                  they who enjoy this world and think of nothing else, therefore
                  [easily] become as fat as this body of yours. (18) You, lying down
                  doing nothing, oh man of the spirit, clearly have no money for sense
                  enjoyment. How can, without you enjoying your senses, your body be
                  this fat, oh learned one? Excuse me for asking this, but can you
                  please tell us that? (19) Despite your being so learned, skilled and
                  intelligent and your talent to speak nicely and your inner balance,
                  you lie down observing how the people are engaged in their work!'




                  Thus, paramahamsas who accepted ajaghara(python) style of living in life of renunciation are very difficult to be identified.



                  It also described Prahlada who wanted to stay and deliver the common masses of people from material life.




                  SB 7.9.43: Oh Supreme One, because my mind is absorbed in the singing
                  and proclaiming of Your sweet ocean of glories, I am free from worries
                  about the hard to cross Vaitaranî [that is this world]. I am more
                  concerned about those fools who, missing the liberation in carrying
                  the load of their sensual interest, are making plans in favor of
                  illusory forms of happiness and dutifulness.



                  SB 7.9.44: Oh Godhead, saints ambitious for their own salvation
                  generally in silence wander in remote places, not so much interested
                  in a life for the sake of others. But I, unlike them, do not want to
                  ignore my suffering fellow men. I do not desire liberation for myself
                  alone. I cannot accept it to see other people wander around oblivious
                  of this shelter of Yours.




                  Also, we get a list of 12 authorities on spiritual knowledge out of which only 4 Kumaras and Shukadeva seem to follow path of renunciation.




                  SB 6.3.20-21: Lord Brahmâ, Nârada, Lord S'iva, the four Kumâras,
                  Kapila, Manu, Prahlâda, Janaka, Bhîshma, Bali, the son of Vyâsa
                  [S'uka] and I myself [Yamarâja]; we, these twelve [mahâjanas], have
                  knowledge of the bhâgavata-dharma [the emancipation in surrender to
                  the Supreme Lord] my dear servants, that is most confidential,
                  transcendental and hard to grasp. He who understands it achieves
                  eternal life.




                  It seems it depends on individual and Lord's will.







                  share|improve this answer










                  New contributor




                  Krishna Varna is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.









                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited yesterday





















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                  answered 2 days ago









                  Krishna VarnaKrishna Varna

                  26011




                  26011




                  New contributor




                  Krishna Varna is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.





                  New contributor





                  Krishna Varna is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.






                  Krishna Varna is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.















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