Having the player face themselves after the mid-game












18












$begingroup$


I am writing a game in which you begin playing as the main villain. You don't know it. You think you are playing the hero and the more successful you are and the stronger you make them the harder they will be to defeat at the very end of the game.



My main concern is anyone who puts in a significant effort early game could feel punished for it. It is also troublesome if the player finds the challenge of the final boss insurmountable because of actions from very early in the game. Is there a way I can signal early on in the second act that if they over-powered the villain it may haunt them? And there is also the possibility the twist will get out and people will just game it from the beginning. It is my intent to get some replay value out of it by having people do multiple runs based on different villain playthroughs. But is it a distraction if everyone learns the twist. Or conversely is it better if I reveal it myself in-game so everyone knows what they are working at from the start?



How do I make my potentially disengaging design hold up without turning people away?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    What kind of a game is it, and how is the player being "good" at the game represented? Depending on the game genre, this could be dealt with in different ways.
    $endgroup$
    – ChrisUC
    9 hours ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Not a direct answer, but foreshadowing this like some sort of prophecy or visions from future might be the way to legitimize it.
    $endgroup$
    – S. Tarık Çetin
    9 hours ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Literally 'the game scales to your level.'
    $endgroup$
    – Giu Piete
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Is this really an issue? Whatever level you are, if the boss have the same level than you the difficulty should stay constant.
    $endgroup$
    – Nereid Regulus
    6 hours ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Don't worry at all about people gaming the... well... game. Speed runs are a thing, and seeing all the content, or "the experience" is not what speed runners are playing for. There are also cheats for so many games, and so many people who don't use them. If anything, being able to game it that way is a feature, a bonus.
    $endgroup$
    – R. Schmitz
    5 hours ago
















18












$begingroup$


I am writing a game in which you begin playing as the main villain. You don't know it. You think you are playing the hero and the more successful you are and the stronger you make them the harder they will be to defeat at the very end of the game.



My main concern is anyone who puts in a significant effort early game could feel punished for it. It is also troublesome if the player finds the challenge of the final boss insurmountable because of actions from very early in the game. Is there a way I can signal early on in the second act that if they over-powered the villain it may haunt them? And there is also the possibility the twist will get out and people will just game it from the beginning. It is my intent to get some replay value out of it by having people do multiple runs based on different villain playthroughs. But is it a distraction if everyone learns the twist. Or conversely is it better if I reveal it myself in-game so everyone knows what they are working at from the start?



How do I make my potentially disengaging design hold up without turning people away?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    What kind of a game is it, and how is the player being "good" at the game represented? Depending on the game genre, this could be dealt with in different ways.
    $endgroup$
    – ChrisUC
    9 hours ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Not a direct answer, but foreshadowing this like some sort of prophecy or visions from future might be the way to legitimize it.
    $endgroup$
    – S. Tarık Çetin
    9 hours ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Literally 'the game scales to your level.'
    $endgroup$
    – Giu Piete
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Is this really an issue? Whatever level you are, if the boss have the same level than you the difficulty should stay constant.
    $endgroup$
    – Nereid Regulus
    6 hours ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Don't worry at all about people gaming the... well... game. Speed runs are a thing, and seeing all the content, or "the experience" is not what speed runners are playing for. There are also cheats for so many games, and so many people who don't use them. If anything, being able to game it that way is a feature, a bonus.
    $endgroup$
    – R. Schmitz
    5 hours ago














18












18








18


2



$begingroup$


I am writing a game in which you begin playing as the main villain. You don't know it. You think you are playing the hero and the more successful you are and the stronger you make them the harder they will be to defeat at the very end of the game.



My main concern is anyone who puts in a significant effort early game could feel punished for it. It is also troublesome if the player finds the challenge of the final boss insurmountable because of actions from very early in the game. Is there a way I can signal early on in the second act that if they over-powered the villain it may haunt them? And there is also the possibility the twist will get out and people will just game it from the beginning. It is my intent to get some replay value out of it by having people do multiple runs based on different villain playthroughs. But is it a distraction if everyone learns the twist. Or conversely is it better if I reveal it myself in-game so everyone knows what they are working at from the start?



How do I make my potentially disengaging design hold up without turning people away?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




I am writing a game in which you begin playing as the main villain. You don't know it. You think you are playing the hero and the more successful you are and the stronger you make them the harder they will be to defeat at the very end of the game.



My main concern is anyone who puts in a significant effort early game could feel punished for it. It is also troublesome if the player finds the challenge of the final boss insurmountable because of actions from very early in the game. Is there a way I can signal early on in the second act that if they over-powered the villain it may haunt them? And there is also the possibility the twist will get out and people will just game it from the beginning. It is my intent to get some replay value out of it by having people do multiple runs based on different villain playthroughs. But is it a distraction if everyone learns the twist. Or conversely is it better if I reveal it myself in-game so everyone knows what they are working at from the start?



How do I make my potentially disengaging design hold up without turning people away?







game-design game-mechanics






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 10 hours ago









Philipp

80.5k19188240




80.5k19188240










asked 17 hours ago









bruglescobruglesco

248112




248112












  • $begingroup$
    What kind of a game is it, and how is the player being "good" at the game represented? Depending on the game genre, this could be dealt with in different ways.
    $endgroup$
    – ChrisUC
    9 hours ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Not a direct answer, but foreshadowing this like some sort of prophecy or visions from future might be the way to legitimize it.
    $endgroup$
    – S. Tarık Çetin
    9 hours ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Literally 'the game scales to your level.'
    $endgroup$
    – Giu Piete
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Is this really an issue? Whatever level you are, if the boss have the same level than you the difficulty should stay constant.
    $endgroup$
    – Nereid Regulus
    6 hours ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Don't worry at all about people gaming the... well... game. Speed runs are a thing, and seeing all the content, or "the experience" is not what speed runners are playing for. There are also cheats for so many games, and so many people who don't use them. If anything, being able to game it that way is a feature, a bonus.
    $endgroup$
    – R. Schmitz
    5 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    What kind of a game is it, and how is the player being "good" at the game represented? Depending on the game genre, this could be dealt with in different ways.
    $endgroup$
    – ChrisUC
    9 hours ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Not a direct answer, but foreshadowing this like some sort of prophecy or visions from future might be the way to legitimize it.
    $endgroup$
    – S. Tarık Çetin
    9 hours ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Literally 'the game scales to your level.'
    $endgroup$
    – Giu Piete
    7 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Is this really an issue? Whatever level you are, if the boss have the same level than you the difficulty should stay constant.
    $endgroup$
    – Nereid Regulus
    6 hours ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Don't worry at all about people gaming the... well... game. Speed runs are a thing, and seeing all the content, or "the experience" is not what speed runners are playing for. There are also cheats for so many games, and so many people who don't use them. If anything, being able to game it that way is a feature, a bonus.
    $endgroup$
    – R. Schmitz
    5 hours ago
















$begingroup$
What kind of a game is it, and how is the player being "good" at the game represented? Depending on the game genre, this could be dealt with in different ways.
$endgroup$
– ChrisUC
9 hours ago




$begingroup$
What kind of a game is it, and how is the player being "good" at the game represented? Depending on the game genre, this could be dealt with in different ways.
$endgroup$
– ChrisUC
9 hours ago




4




4




$begingroup$
Not a direct answer, but foreshadowing this like some sort of prophecy or visions from future might be the way to legitimize it.
$endgroup$
– S. Tarık Çetin
9 hours ago




$begingroup$
Not a direct answer, but foreshadowing this like some sort of prophecy or visions from future might be the way to legitimize it.
$endgroup$
– S. Tarık Çetin
9 hours ago




4




4




$begingroup$
Literally 'the game scales to your level.'
$endgroup$
– Giu Piete
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
Literally 'the game scales to your level.'
$endgroup$
– Giu Piete
7 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
Is this really an issue? Whatever level you are, if the boss have the same level than you the difficulty should stay constant.
$endgroup$
– Nereid Regulus
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
Is this really an issue? Whatever level you are, if the boss have the same level than you the difficulty should stay constant.
$endgroup$
– Nereid Regulus
6 hours ago




4




4




$begingroup$
Don't worry at all about people gaming the... well... game. Speed runs are a thing, and seeing all the content, or "the experience" is not what speed runners are playing for. There are also cheats for so many games, and so many people who don't use them. If anything, being able to game it that way is a feature, a bonus.
$endgroup$
– R. Schmitz
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
Don't worry at all about people gaming the... well... game. Speed runs are a thing, and seeing all the content, or "the experience" is not what speed runners are playing for. There are also cheats for so many games, and so many people who don't use them. If anything, being able to game it that way is a feature, a bonus.
$endgroup$
– R. Schmitz
5 hours ago










6 Answers
6






active

oldest

votes


















25












$begingroup$

Having the player play against their own earlier accomplishments actually seems like a viable approach to implement dynamic difficulty. The better the player, the more challenging the game will become.



But when the player becomes aware of this mechanic (and you have to assume they will find out about this before playing - because it's an unique mechanic and you should use it to promote your game), then they will likely intentionally play bad in the first act of the game so they can exploit their weakness in the second act. This might in fact be an interesting meta-mechanic which could be a challenge in itself: How do you successfully complete the first act while staying as weak as possible? This also can become a neat self-balancing difficulty mechanic. The more skillful the player, the more they can challenge themselves by trying to complete the first act with the least mechanical strength possible.



You might encourage the player to try both approaches for the game by using achievements. Give them an achievement for beating their 1st act character in an extremely short amount of time (which can in practice only be accomplished with the "1st act low level run" strategy) and another one for maxing out their 1st act character and then beating it at all.



But I am seeing a few design pitfalls here you need to be careful to avoid:




  1. Is a first act low-level run actually interesting to play or just annoying?

  2. Does the 2nd act become too easy when the player plays this way?

  3. Does the 2nd act become too hard when the player does not play this way?


How to solve problem 1 heavily depends on your game mechanics, how much they allow the player to accomplish with sheer skill but lacking mechanical strength and how satisfying this way of playing feels. Unfortunately the question does not provide enough information about the core game mechanics of the game to provide any more concrete advise in this regard.



Problems 2 and 3 can be mitigated by making sure that the performance in act 1 does not completely dominate the difficulty in the 2nd act. Make sure that the player's success in act 1 is one aspect of the difficulty of the 2nd act, but that there are also many other obstacles for the player which are completely independent from their 1st act performance.



To solve problem 3, you should make it possible for the player to gain more mechanical strength in act 2 than they could ever achieve in act 1, so everyone becomes able to out-grind their act 1 character, no matter how hard they tried. Another option could be to provide an alternative story path where the battle between the act 1 and the act 2 character doesn't happen at all. This path might only become available when the act 1 character exceeds a certain power level. This might in fact be a good opportunity for the "golden ending" where the two player-characters reconcile their differences in a peaceful way and then they face the True Final Boss together.



I am looking forward to beating myself up in your game.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    I love the alternate ending idea because it combines mechanical (stronger character in final battle) with narrative rewards without subverting the premise.
    $endgroup$
    – Ruther Rendommeleigh
    9 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Oh yeah, I'm definitely using the golden ending approach. Thanks
    $endgroup$
    – bruglesco
    9 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    Mechanically (although not at all story-wise), FF8 has this property, so looking at how problems 1-3 play out in it would be informative.
    $endgroup$
    – R..
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    One possible strategy is that might emerge is to focus on progression elements that the AI is bad at using.
    $endgroup$
    – OganM
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @R.., in FF8, leveling up is so hugely counterproductive that the hardest part of a low-level run is figuring out how you can avoid gaining experience. It's not something I'd recommend looking at for inspiration.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark
    47 mins ago



















10












$begingroup$

1. Reward the player throughout the game for building (and later fighting) a strong villain. Depending on the genre, playstyle and target demographic, that might be "just" a higher score or mechanical rewards like more experience points/better loot etc. to smooth out the difficulty curve a little.



Typically, games that allow you to (knowingly) affect the difficulty will also reward taking the harder path in some way. In your case, to avoid frustration, you should make sure that at least some of those rewards are attainable during or even before the second half - ideally with a mechanic that you introduce before the big reveal and switch, which would also help tie the two halves of the game together a bit better.



2. Consider focusing more on "side-grades" for your villain's progress. If you find that doing really well in the early game makes the boss fight too hard, change some of the best rewards to something rare and cool, but ultimately not that poweful. Make it flashy, give it big numers and a weakness that - perhaps - the AI isn't smart enough to exploit but a clever player might be. You want them to think




Cool, so I get to fight against that? Ha, good thing I already know its weakness.




Essentially, reward them with coolness factor, unique options and replayability, which will persist throughout the second half, rather than just bigger numbers.



3. Hide some soft counters to earlier progress in the second half. Design some items/units/whatever to be especially effective against the stronger things the player can attain in the first half of the game. As in point 2, you can make these more challenging to find or use than other options, as long as they're effective enough to level the playing field a bit. A player that did exceptionally well in the early game can be expected to handle that, and the trope of "unlikely hero searches for lost artifact to be able to face nigh unbeatabe villain", while perhaps overused, has storytelling potential because it's not a macguffin to get the plot going but a consequence of the player's earlier actions.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$





















    4












    $begingroup$

    If the game is an RPG, one possible way to deal with this would be to make it a moral action.



    First, display things like the enemies being morally innocent, or displaying themes of bloodthirst and war being punished. For example, if you grind too much in certain areas, show the civilisations of the enemies you're grinding against start to wither, or cause the people in town to start mentioning how it's affecting the area in negative ways.



    This way, any player that would be grinding for power and to make the game easier would have to directly ignore what characters and locations are implying. This could also lead to a "Hey, I found a way to cheat the game" situation caused by them levelling up too much despite the themes, which would then be punished by them fighting themselves, who has also levelled up a similar amount. In addition, people who choose to respect the area, obey the games wished and make the game harder would be rewarded for their nature.



    One extra thing to consider if implementing this would be the external factors that would be necessary to show the difference in power, as if it's just You v Your other self, the attack/defense levels would just vary, and not actually display power. Allies and spells/abilities with set damage are necessary to actually display the difference in power.



    Overall, this would make a memorable experience for the player, as the theming is a way to make the entire game lead up to a point where they fight themselves, as opposed to other solutions which may just make people see it as another point in the story.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      I'm not sure if I understand the second to last paragraph correctly. Are you implying to display fake numbers to the player which don't actually reflect the stats used by the game mechanics calculations and make that combat actually work with fixed stats which are independent from how the player actually built their two characters?
      $endgroup$
      – Philipp
      9 hours ago












    • $begingroup$
      @Philipp Chris is suggesting that you give the player an outside mark to gauge their (and their foil's) power. Take the simple case of damage being Attacker's Power minus Defenders Defense taken from Defender's HP; if you multiply all the numbers by 1 million, nothing actually changes - if the Villain and the Hero are relatively similar, there's no power gauge and the play feels stale from level 0-1000. If you have something to compare to outside - like an NPC that doesn't grow, or scenes where a character shows their power (wiping out a town, carrying a mountain, etc), it's more visceral.
      $endgroup$
      – Delioth
      6 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      cough Undertale cough
      $endgroup$
      – Beefster
      4 hours ago



















    1












    $begingroup$

    Create a system of counters.



    For example if players are going to be mages, create a system where there are 3 schools of magic: fire, water and nature. Fire is powerful against nature, weak against water. Water is powerful against fire, weak against nature. Nature is powerful against water, weak against fire. Then when the player creates a powerful fire mage villain, make the hero a water mage. And so on...



    Or when the villain is a stealth-based character, give the hero high perception and revealing spells. When the villain is a high-mobility character, give the hero some items that slow down and/or restrict movement. When the villain is heavily armored, give the hero spells that ignore armor (or even ones where metal armor amplifies the damage).






    share|improve this answer










    New contributor




    user31389 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.






    $endgroup$









    • 1




      $begingroup$
      I'd like to see a version of this where the hero's character development choices are also in the player's hands, rather than automatically countering the villain. Then the player can choose whether they want to spec into a counter build (recommended path), or deliberately up the challenge for themselves by choosing a build over which their villain has an advantage.
      $endgroup$
      – DMGregory
      5 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @DMGregory Oh yeah, you can do that too. Make villain weaknesses and their counters known but let the hero do what they want.
      $endgroup$
      – user31389
      5 hours ago



















    1












    $begingroup$

    Make it spoiler-proof



    If the game becomes popular, any secrets will be spoiled, so don't make it depend on secrets being kept from the player for it to be fun.



    Dr. Jekyll, meet Mr. Hyde



    Give the main character some trait that allows them to be both superhero and villain at the same time without realizing it, though somehow with two separate but inextricably linked bodies. Gradually reveal this fact with clues (perhaps revealed as a reward for good game-play) so that astute players can figure out early on and have the best possible chance against themselves. At certain points clearly reveal pieces of this info to all players (e.g. in cut scenes) so that no player is blindsided when they reach the final battle.



    The greater the struggle, the greater the honor



    Reward players who take the most difficult path and win with the greatest honor (points, badges, etc.) so players will not be motivated to slack off in the beginning just to win.



    Why play only one side?



    In fact you could have the player actually play both hero and villain simultaneously (switching back and forth between the two separate "games" representing the hero's and villain's journey to face one another), and winning the game requires that they win both halves of the game along with the final battle from the hero's perspective. After all, what's a hero without villain? So if the player makes the main character so weak that they can't get the villain to the final battle to face the hero, they lose. And likewise for the hero. They only win if they get both halves (Jekyll and Hyde) to the final battle and then the hero defeats the villain.



    P.S. If you want the villain to win as the goal, then just reverse the labels "hero" and "villain" in the description above.






    share|improve this answer










    New contributor




    bob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.






    $endgroup$





















      0












      $begingroup$

      Exclusive Choices



      There are sources of "power" in the game (be they artifacts, allies, skills or actual supernatural/futuristic powers), but the first character can't get all of them. Getting one locks another out (perhaps it's an issue that the powers actually counter each other or you can't wear two pieces of the same kind of equipment or just there's not enough time to get all of them). Character 2 will have to go get the complementary powers to fight character 1.



      Bonus points if getting too many powers causes the first character to go villain so the second character can't get all the complementary powers and has to deal with being less powerful for extra difficulty.






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      user125566 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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        6 Answers
        6






        active

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        6 Answers
        6






        active

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        active

        oldest

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        active

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        25












        $begingroup$

        Having the player play against their own earlier accomplishments actually seems like a viable approach to implement dynamic difficulty. The better the player, the more challenging the game will become.



        But when the player becomes aware of this mechanic (and you have to assume they will find out about this before playing - because it's an unique mechanic and you should use it to promote your game), then they will likely intentionally play bad in the first act of the game so they can exploit their weakness in the second act. This might in fact be an interesting meta-mechanic which could be a challenge in itself: How do you successfully complete the first act while staying as weak as possible? This also can become a neat self-balancing difficulty mechanic. The more skillful the player, the more they can challenge themselves by trying to complete the first act with the least mechanical strength possible.



        You might encourage the player to try both approaches for the game by using achievements. Give them an achievement for beating their 1st act character in an extremely short amount of time (which can in practice only be accomplished with the "1st act low level run" strategy) and another one for maxing out their 1st act character and then beating it at all.



        But I am seeing a few design pitfalls here you need to be careful to avoid:




        1. Is a first act low-level run actually interesting to play or just annoying?

        2. Does the 2nd act become too easy when the player plays this way?

        3. Does the 2nd act become too hard when the player does not play this way?


        How to solve problem 1 heavily depends on your game mechanics, how much they allow the player to accomplish with sheer skill but lacking mechanical strength and how satisfying this way of playing feels. Unfortunately the question does not provide enough information about the core game mechanics of the game to provide any more concrete advise in this regard.



        Problems 2 and 3 can be mitigated by making sure that the performance in act 1 does not completely dominate the difficulty in the 2nd act. Make sure that the player's success in act 1 is one aspect of the difficulty of the 2nd act, but that there are also many other obstacles for the player which are completely independent from their 1st act performance.



        To solve problem 3, you should make it possible for the player to gain more mechanical strength in act 2 than they could ever achieve in act 1, so everyone becomes able to out-grind their act 1 character, no matter how hard they tried. Another option could be to provide an alternative story path where the battle between the act 1 and the act 2 character doesn't happen at all. This path might only become available when the act 1 character exceeds a certain power level. This might in fact be a good opportunity for the "golden ending" where the two player-characters reconcile their differences in a peaceful way and then they face the True Final Boss together.



        I am looking forward to beating myself up in your game.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$









        • 3




          $begingroup$
          I love the alternate ending idea because it combines mechanical (stronger character in final battle) with narrative rewards without subverting the premise.
          $endgroup$
          – Ruther Rendommeleigh
          9 hours ago






        • 1




          $begingroup$
          Oh yeah, I'm definitely using the golden ending approach. Thanks
          $endgroup$
          – bruglesco
          9 hours ago












        • $begingroup$
          Mechanically (although not at all story-wise), FF8 has this property, so looking at how problems 1-3 play out in it would be informative.
          $endgroup$
          – R..
          3 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          One possible strategy is that might emerge is to focus on progression elements that the AI is bad at using.
          $endgroup$
          – OganM
          1 hour ago






        • 1




          $begingroup$
          @R.., in FF8, leveling up is so hugely counterproductive that the hardest part of a low-level run is figuring out how you can avoid gaining experience. It's not something I'd recommend looking at for inspiration.
          $endgroup$
          – Mark
          47 mins ago
















        25












        $begingroup$

        Having the player play against their own earlier accomplishments actually seems like a viable approach to implement dynamic difficulty. The better the player, the more challenging the game will become.



        But when the player becomes aware of this mechanic (and you have to assume they will find out about this before playing - because it's an unique mechanic and you should use it to promote your game), then they will likely intentionally play bad in the first act of the game so they can exploit their weakness in the second act. This might in fact be an interesting meta-mechanic which could be a challenge in itself: How do you successfully complete the first act while staying as weak as possible? This also can become a neat self-balancing difficulty mechanic. The more skillful the player, the more they can challenge themselves by trying to complete the first act with the least mechanical strength possible.



        You might encourage the player to try both approaches for the game by using achievements. Give them an achievement for beating their 1st act character in an extremely short amount of time (which can in practice only be accomplished with the "1st act low level run" strategy) and another one for maxing out their 1st act character and then beating it at all.



        But I am seeing a few design pitfalls here you need to be careful to avoid:




        1. Is a first act low-level run actually interesting to play or just annoying?

        2. Does the 2nd act become too easy when the player plays this way?

        3. Does the 2nd act become too hard when the player does not play this way?


        How to solve problem 1 heavily depends on your game mechanics, how much they allow the player to accomplish with sheer skill but lacking mechanical strength and how satisfying this way of playing feels. Unfortunately the question does not provide enough information about the core game mechanics of the game to provide any more concrete advise in this regard.



        Problems 2 and 3 can be mitigated by making sure that the performance in act 1 does not completely dominate the difficulty in the 2nd act. Make sure that the player's success in act 1 is one aspect of the difficulty of the 2nd act, but that there are also many other obstacles for the player which are completely independent from their 1st act performance.



        To solve problem 3, you should make it possible for the player to gain more mechanical strength in act 2 than they could ever achieve in act 1, so everyone becomes able to out-grind their act 1 character, no matter how hard they tried. Another option could be to provide an alternative story path where the battle between the act 1 and the act 2 character doesn't happen at all. This path might only become available when the act 1 character exceeds a certain power level. This might in fact be a good opportunity for the "golden ending" where the two player-characters reconcile their differences in a peaceful way and then they face the True Final Boss together.



        I am looking forward to beating myself up in your game.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$









        • 3




          $begingroup$
          I love the alternate ending idea because it combines mechanical (stronger character in final battle) with narrative rewards without subverting the premise.
          $endgroup$
          – Ruther Rendommeleigh
          9 hours ago






        • 1




          $begingroup$
          Oh yeah, I'm definitely using the golden ending approach. Thanks
          $endgroup$
          – bruglesco
          9 hours ago












        • $begingroup$
          Mechanically (although not at all story-wise), FF8 has this property, so looking at how problems 1-3 play out in it would be informative.
          $endgroup$
          – R..
          3 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          One possible strategy is that might emerge is to focus on progression elements that the AI is bad at using.
          $endgroup$
          – OganM
          1 hour ago






        • 1




          $begingroup$
          @R.., in FF8, leveling up is so hugely counterproductive that the hardest part of a low-level run is figuring out how you can avoid gaining experience. It's not something I'd recommend looking at for inspiration.
          $endgroup$
          – Mark
          47 mins ago














        25












        25








        25





        $begingroup$

        Having the player play against their own earlier accomplishments actually seems like a viable approach to implement dynamic difficulty. The better the player, the more challenging the game will become.



        But when the player becomes aware of this mechanic (and you have to assume they will find out about this before playing - because it's an unique mechanic and you should use it to promote your game), then they will likely intentionally play bad in the first act of the game so they can exploit their weakness in the second act. This might in fact be an interesting meta-mechanic which could be a challenge in itself: How do you successfully complete the first act while staying as weak as possible? This also can become a neat self-balancing difficulty mechanic. The more skillful the player, the more they can challenge themselves by trying to complete the first act with the least mechanical strength possible.



        You might encourage the player to try both approaches for the game by using achievements. Give them an achievement for beating their 1st act character in an extremely short amount of time (which can in practice only be accomplished with the "1st act low level run" strategy) and another one for maxing out their 1st act character and then beating it at all.



        But I am seeing a few design pitfalls here you need to be careful to avoid:




        1. Is a first act low-level run actually interesting to play or just annoying?

        2. Does the 2nd act become too easy when the player plays this way?

        3. Does the 2nd act become too hard when the player does not play this way?


        How to solve problem 1 heavily depends on your game mechanics, how much they allow the player to accomplish with sheer skill but lacking mechanical strength and how satisfying this way of playing feels. Unfortunately the question does not provide enough information about the core game mechanics of the game to provide any more concrete advise in this regard.



        Problems 2 and 3 can be mitigated by making sure that the performance in act 1 does not completely dominate the difficulty in the 2nd act. Make sure that the player's success in act 1 is one aspect of the difficulty of the 2nd act, but that there are also many other obstacles for the player which are completely independent from their 1st act performance.



        To solve problem 3, you should make it possible for the player to gain more mechanical strength in act 2 than they could ever achieve in act 1, so everyone becomes able to out-grind their act 1 character, no matter how hard they tried. Another option could be to provide an alternative story path where the battle between the act 1 and the act 2 character doesn't happen at all. This path might only become available when the act 1 character exceeds a certain power level. This might in fact be a good opportunity for the "golden ending" where the two player-characters reconcile their differences in a peaceful way and then they face the True Final Boss together.



        I am looking forward to beating myself up in your game.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        Having the player play against their own earlier accomplishments actually seems like a viable approach to implement dynamic difficulty. The better the player, the more challenging the game will become.



        But when the player becomes aware of this mechanic (and you have to assume they will find out about this before playing - because it's an unique mechanic and you should use it to promote your game), then they will likely intentionally play bad in the first act of the game so they can exploit their weakness in the second act. This might in fact be an interesting meta-mechanic which could be a challenge in itself: How do you successfully complete the first act while staying as weak as possible? This also can become a neat self-balancing difficulty mechanic. The more skillful the player, the more they can challenge themselves by trying to complete the first act with the least mechanical strength possible.



        You might encourage the player to try both approaches for the game by using achievements. Give them an achievement for beating their 1st act character in an extremely short amount of time (which can in practice only be accomplished with the "1st act low level run" strategy) and another one for maxing out their 1st act character and then beating it at all.



        But I am seeing a few design pitfalls here you need to be careful to avoid:




        1. Is a first act low-level run actually interesting to play or just annoying?

        2. Does the 2nd act become too easy when the player plays this way?

        3. Does the 2nd act become too hard when the player does not play this way?


        How to solve problem 1 heavily depends on your game mechanics, how much they allow the player to accomplish with sheer skill but lacking mechanical strength and how satisfying this way of playing feels. Unfortunately the question does not provide enough information about the core game mechanics of the game to provide any more concrete advise in this regard.



        Problems 2 and 3 can be mitigated by making sure that the performance in act 1 does not completely dominate the difficulty in the 2nd act. Make sure that the player's success in act 1 is one aspect of the difficulty of the 2nd act, but that there are also many other obstacles for the player which are completely independent from their 1st act performance.



        To solve problem 3, you should make it possible for the player to gain more mechanical strength in act 2 than they could ever achieve in act 1, so everyone becomes able to out-grind their act 1 character, no matter how hard they tried. Another option could be to provide an alternative story path where the battle between the act 1 and the act 2 character doesn't happen at all. This path might only become available when the act 1 character exceeds a certain power level. This might in fact be a good opportunity for the "golden ending" where the two player-characters reconcile their differences in a peaceful way and then they face the True Final Boss together.



        I am looking forward to beating myself up in your game.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 10 hours ago

























        answered 10 hours ago









        PhilippPhilipp

        80.5k19188240




        80.5k19188240








        • 3




          $begingroup$
          I love the alternate ending idea because it combines mechanical (stronger character in final battle) with narrative rewards without subverting the premise.
          $endgroup$
          – Ruther Rendommeleigh
          9 hours ago






        • 1




          $begingroup$
          Oh yeah, I'm definitely using the golden ending approach. Thanks
          $endgroup$
          – bruglesco
          9 hours ago












        • $begingroup$
          Mechanically (although not at all story-wise), FF8 has this property, so looking at how problems 1-3 play out in it would be informative.
          $endgroup$
          – R..
          3 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          One possible strategy is that might emerge is to focus on progression elements that the AI is bad at using.
          $endgroup$
          – OganM
          1 hour ago






        • 1




          $begingroup$
          @R.., in FF8, leveling up is so hugely counterproductive that the hardest part of a low-level run is figuring out how you can avoid gaining experience. It's not something I'd recommend looking at for inspiration.
          $endgroup$
          – Mark
          47 mins ago














        • 3




          $begingroup$
          I love the alternate ending idea because it combines mechanical (stronger character in final battle) with narrative rewards without subverting the premise.
          $endgroup$
          – Ruther Rendommeleigh
          9 hours ago






        • 1




          $begingroup$
          Oh yeah, I'm definitely using the golden ending approach. Thanks
          $endgroup$
          – bruglesco
          9 hours ago












        • $begingroup$
          Mechanically (although not at all story-wise), FF8 has this property, so looking at how problems 1-3 play out in it would be informative.
          $endgroup$
          – R..
          3 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          One possible strategy is that might emerge is to focus on progression elements that the AI is bad at using.
          $endgroup$
          – OganM
          1 hour ago






        • 1




          $begingroup$
          @R.., in FF8, leveling up is so hugely counterproductive that the hardest part of a low-level run is figuring out how you can avoid gaining experience. It's not something I'd recommend looking at for inspiration.
          $endgroup$
          – Mark
          47 mins ago








        3




        3




        $begingroup$
        I love the alternate ending idea because it combines mechanical (stronger character in final battle) with narrative rewards without subverting the premise.
        $endgroup$
        – Ruther Rendommeleigh
        9 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        I love the alternate ending idea because it combines mechanical (stronger character in final battle) with narrative rewards without subverting the premise.
        $endgroup$
        – Ruther Rendommeleigh
        9 hours ago




        1




        1




        $begingroup$
        Oh yeah, I'm definitely using the golden ending approach. Thanks
        $endgroup$
        – bruglesco
        9 hours ago






        $begingroup$
        Oh yeah, I'm definitely using the golden ending approach. Thanks
        $endgroup$
        – bruglesco
        9 hours ago














        $begingroup$
        Mechanically (although not at all story-wise), FF8 has this property, so looking at how problems 1-3 play out in it would be informative.
        $endgroup$
        – R..
        3 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        Mechanically (although not at all story-wise), FF8 has this property, so looking at how problems 1-3 play out in it would be informative.
        $endgroup$
        – R..
        3 hours ago












        $begingroup$
        One possible strategy is that might emerge is to focus on progression elements that the AI is bad at using.
        $endgroup$
        – OganM
        1 hour ago




        $begingroup$
        One possible strategy is that might emerge is to focus on progression elements that the AI is bad at using.
        $endgroup$
        – OganM
        1 hour ago




        1




        1




        $begingroup$
        @R.., in FF8, leveling up is so hugely counterproductive that the hardest part of a low-level run is figuring out how you can avoid gaining experience. It's not something I'd recommend looking at for inspiration.
        $endgroup$
        – Mark
        47 mins ago




        $begingroup$
        @R.., in FF8, leveling up is so hugely counterproductive that the hardest part of a low-level run is figuring out how you can avoid gaining experience. It's not something I'd recommend looking at for inspiration.
        $endgroup$
        – Mark
        47 mins ago













        10












        $begingroup$

        1. Reward the player throughout the game for building (and later fighting) a strong villain. Depending on the genre, playstyle and target demographic, that might be "just" a higher score or mechanical rewards like more experience points/better loot etc. to smooth out the difficulty curve a little.



        Typically, games that allow you to (knowingly) affect the difficulty will also reward taking the harder path in some way. In your case, to avoid frustration, you should make sure that at least some of those rewards are attainable during or even before the second half - ideally with a mechanic that you introduce before the big reveal and switch, which would also help tie the two halves of the game together a bit better.



        2. Consider focusing more on "side-grades" for your villain's progress. If you find that doing really well in the early game makes the boss fight too hard, change some of the best rewards to something rare and cool, but ultimately not that poweful. Make it flashy, give it big numers and a weakness that - perhaps - the AI isn't smart enough to exploit but a clever player might be. You want them to think




        Cool, so I get to fight against that? Ha, good thing I already know its weakness.




        Essentially, reward them with coolness factor, unique options and replayability, which will persist throughout the second half, rather than just bigger numbers.



        3. Hide some soft counters to earlier progress in the second half. Design some items/units/whatever to be especially effective against the stronger things the player can attain in the first half of the game. As in point 2, you can make these more challenging to find or use than other options, as long as they're effective enough to level the playing field a bit. A player that did exceptionally well in the early game can be expected to handle that, and the trope of "unlikely hero searches for lost artifact to be able to face nigh unbeatabe villain", while perhaps overused, has storytelling potential because it's not a macguffin to get the plot going but a consequence of the player's earlier actions.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$


















          10












          $begingroup$

          1. Reward the player throughout the game for building (and later fighting) a strong villain. Depending on the genre, playstyle and target demographic, that might be "just" a higher score or mechanical rewards like more experience points/better loot etc. to smooth out the difficulty curve a little.



          Typically, games that allow you to (knowingly) affect the difficulty will also reward taking the harder path in some way. In your case, to avoid frustration, you should make sure that at least some of those rewards are attainable during or even before the second half - ideally with a mechanic that you introduce before the big reveal and switch, which would also help tie the two halves of the game together a bit better.



          2. Consider focusing more on "side-grades" for your villain's progress. If you find that doing really well in the early game makes the boss fight too hard, change some of the best rewards to something rare and cool, but ultimately not that poweful. Make it flashy, give it big numers and a weakness that - perhaps - the AI isn't smart enough to exploit but a clever player might be. You want them to think




          Cool, so I get to fight against that? Ha, good thing I already know its weakness.




          Essentially, reward them with coolness factor, unique options and replayability, which will persist throughout the second half, rather than just bigger numbers.



          3. Hide some soft counters to earlier progress in the second half. Design some items/units/whatever to be especially effective against the stronger things the player can attain in the first half of the game. As in point 2, you can make these more challenging to find or use than other options, as long as they're effective enough to level the playing field a bit. A player that did exceptionally well in the early game can be expected to handle that, and the trope of "unlikely hero searches for lost artifact to be able to face nigh unbeatabe villain", while perhaps overused, has storytelling potential because it's not a macguffin to get the plot going but a consequence of the player's earlier actions.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$
















            10












            10








            10





            $begingroup$

            1. Reward the player throughout the game for building (and later fighting) a strong villain. Depending on the genre, playstyle and target demographic, that might be "just" a higher score or mechanical rewards like more experience points/better loot etc. to smooth out the difficulty curve a little.



            Typically, games that allow you to (knowingly) affect the difficulty will also reward taking the harder path in some way. In your case, to avoid frustration, you should make sure that at least some of those rewards are attainable during or even before the second half - ideally with a mechanic that you introduce before the big reveal and switch, which would also help tie the two halves of the game together a bit better.



            2. Consider focusing more on "side-grades" for your villain's progress. If you find that doing really well in the early game makes the boss fight too hard, change some of the best rewards to something rare and cool, but ultimately not that poweful. Make it flashy, give it big numers and a weakness that - perhaps - the AI isn't smart enough to exploit but a clever player might be. You want them to think




            Cool, so I get to fight against that? Ha, good thing I already know its weakness.




            Essentially, reward them with coolness factor, unique options and replayability, which will persist throughout the second half, rather than just bigger numbers.



            3. Hide some soft counters to earlier progress in the second half. Design some items/units/whatever to be especially effective against the stronger things the player can attain in the first half of the game. As in point 2, you can make these more challenging to find or use than other options, as long as they're effective enough to level the playing field a bit. A player that did exceptionally well in the early game can be expected to handle that, and the trope of "unlikely hero searches for lost artifact to be able to face nigh unbeatabe villain", while perhaps overused, has storytelling potential because it's not a macguffin to get the plot going but a consequence of the player's earlier actions.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            1. Reward the player throughout the game for building (and later fighting) a strong villain. Depending on the genre, playstyle and target demographic, that might be "just" a higher score or mechanical rewards like more experience points/better loot etc. to smooth out the difficulty curve a little.



            Typically, games that allow you to (knowingly) affect the difficulty will also reward taking the harder path in some way. In your case, to avoid frustration, you should make sure that at least some of those rewards are attainable during or even before the second half - ideally with a mechanic that you introduce before the big reveal and switch, which would also help tie the two halves of the game together a bit better.



            2. Consider focusing more on "side-grades" for your villain's progress. If you find that doing really well in the early game makes the boss fight too hard, change some of the best rewards to something rare and cool, but ultimately not that poweful. Make it flashy, give it big numers and a weakness that - perhaps - the AI isn't smart enough to exploit but a clever player might be. You want them to think




            Cool, so I get to fight against that? Ha, good thing I already know its weakness.




            Essentially, reward them with coolness factor, unique options and replayability, which will persist throughout the second half, rather than just bigger numbers.



            3. Hide some soft counters to earlier progress in the second half. Design some items/units/whatever to be especially effective against the stronger things the player can attain in the first half of the game. As in point 2, you can make these more challenging to find or use than other options, as long as they're effective enough to level the playing field a bit. A player that did exceptionally well in the early game can be expected to handle that, and the trope of "unlikely hero searches for lost artifact to be able to face nigh unbeatabe villain", while perhaps overused, has storytelling potential because it's not a macguffin to get the plot going but a consequence of the player's earlier actions.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 9 hours ago

























            answered 9 hours ago









            Ruther RendommeleighRuther Rendommeleigh

            54416




            54416























                4












                $begingroup$

                If the game is an RPG, one possible way to deal with this would be to make it a moral action.



                First, display things like the enemies being morally innocent, or displaying themes of bloodthirst and war being punished. For example, if you grind too much in certain areas, show the civilisations of the enemies you're grinding against start to wither, or cause the people in town to start mentioning how it's affecting the area in negative ways.



                This way, any player that would be grinding for power and to make the game easier would have to directly ignore what characters and locations are implying. This could also lead to a "Hey, I found a way to cheat the game" situation caused by them levelling up too much despite the themes, which would then be punished by them fighting themselves, who has also levelled up a similar amount. In addition, people who choose to respect the area, obey the games wished and make the game harder would be rewarded for their nature.



                One extra thing to consider if implementing this would be the external factors that would be necessary to show the difference in power, as if it's just You v Your other self, the attack/defense levels would just vary, and not actually display power. Allies and spells/abilities with set damage are necessary to actually display the difference in power.



                Overall, this would make a memorable experience for the player, as the theming is a way to make the entire game lead up to a point where they fight themselves, as opposed to other solutions which may just make people see it as another point in the story.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$













                • $begingroup$
                  I'm not sure if I understand the second to last paragraph correctly. Are you implying to display fake numbers to the player which don't actually reflect the stats used by the game mechanics calculations and make that combat actually work with fixed stats which are independent from how the player actually built their two characters?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Philipp
                  9 hours ago












                • $begingroup$
                  @Philipp Chris is suggesting that you give the player an outside mark to gauge their (and their foil's) power. Take the simple case of damage being Attacker's Power minus Defenders Defense taken from Defender's HP; if you multiply all the numbers by 1 million, nothing actually changes - if the Villain and the Hero are relatively similar, there's no power gauge and the play feels stale from level 0-1000. If you have something to compare to outside - like an NPC that doesn't grow, or scenes where a character shows their power (wiping out a town, carrying a mountain, etc), it's more visceral.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Delioth
                  6 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  cough Undertale cough
                  $endgroup$
                  – Beefster
                  4 hours ago
















                4












                $begingroup$

                If the game is an RPG, one possible way to deal with this would be to make it a moral action.



                First, display things like the enemies being morally innocent, or displaying themes of bloodthirst and war being punished. For example, if you grind too much in certain areas, show the civilisations of the enemies you're grinding against start to wither, or cause the people in town to start mentioning how it's affecting the area in negative ways.



                This way, any player that would be grinding for power and to make the game easier would have to directly ignore what characters and locations are implying. This could also lead to a "Hey, I found a way to cheat the game" situation caused by them levelling up too much despite the themes, which would then be punished by them fighting themselves, who has also levelled up a similar amount. In addition, people who choose to respect the area, obey the games wished and make the game harder would be rewarded for their nature.



                One extra thing to consider if implementing this would be the external factors that would be necessary to show the difference in power, as if it's just You v Your other self, the attack/defense levels would just vary, and not actually display power. Allies and spells/abilities with set damage are necessary to actually display the difference in power.



                Overall, this would make a memorable experience for the player, as the theming is a way to make the entire game lead up to a point where they fight themselves, as opposed to other solutions which may just make people see it as another point in the story.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$













                • $begingroup$
                  I'm not sure if I understand the second to last paragraph correctly. Are you implying to display fake numbers to the player which don't actually reflect the stats used by the game mechanics calculations and make that combat actually work with fixed stats which are independent from how the player actually built their two characters?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Philipp
                  9 hours ago












                • $begingroup$
                  @Philipp Chris is suggesting that you give the player an outside mark to gauge their (and their foil's) power. Take the simple case of damage being Attacker's Power minus Defenders Defense taken from Defender's HP; if you multiply all the numbers by 1 million, nothing actually changes - if the Villain and the Hero are relatively similar, there's no power gauge and the play feels stale from level 0-1000. If you have something to compare to outside - like an NPC that doesn't grow, or scenes where a character shows their power (wiping out a town, carrying a mountain, etc), it's more visceral.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Delioth
                  6 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  cough Undertale cough
                  $endgroup$
                  – Beefster
                  4 hours ago














                4












                4








                4





                $begingroup$

                If the game is an RPG, one possible way to deal with this would be to make it a moral action.



                First, display things like the enemies being morally innocent, or displaying themes of bloodthirst and war being punished. For example, if you grind too much in certain areas, show the civilisations of the enemies you're grinding against start to wither, or cause the people in town to start mentioning how it's affecting the area in negative ways.



                This way, any player that would be grinding for power and to make the game easier would have to directly ignore what characters and locations are implying. This could also lead to a "Hey, I found a way to cheat the game" situation caused by them levelling up too much despite the themes, which would then be punished by them fighting themselves, who has also levelled up a similar amount. In addition, people who choose to respect the area, obey the games wished and make the game harder would be rewarded for their nature.



                One extra thing to consider if implementing this would be the external factors that would be necessary to show the difference in power, as if it's just You v Your other self, the attack/defense levels would just vary, and not actually display power. Allies and spells/abilities with set damage are necessary to actually display the difference in power.



                Overall, this would make a memorable experience for the player, as the theming is a way to make the entire game lead up to a point where they fight themselves, as opposed to other solutions which may just make people see it as another point in the story.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$



                If the game is an RPG, one possible way to deal with this would be to make it a moral action.



                First, display things like the enemies being morally innocent, or displaying themes of bloodthirst and war being punished. For example, if you grind too much in certain areas, show the civilisations of the enemies you're grinding against start to wither, or cause the people in town to start mentioning how it's affecting the area in negative ways.



                This way, any player that would be grinding for power and to make the game easier would have to directly ignore what characters and locations are implying. This could also lead to a "Hey, I found a way to cheat the game" situation caused by them levelling up too much despite the themes, which would then be punished by them fighting themselves, who has also levelled up a similar amount. In addition, people who choose to respect the area, obey the games wished and make the game harder would be rewarded for their nature.



                One extra thing to consider if implementing this would be the external factors that would be necessary to show the difference in power, as if it's just You v Your other self, the attack/defense levels would just vary, and not actually display power. Allies and spells/abilities with set damage are necessary to actually display the difference in power.



                Overall, this would make a memorable experience for the player, as the theming is a way to make the entire game lead up to a point where they fight themselves, as opposed to other solutions which may just make people see it as another point in the story.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 9 hours ago









                ChrisUCChrisUC

                424210




                424210












                • $begingroup$
                  I'm not sure if I understand the second to last paragraph correctly. Are you implying to display fake numbers to the player which don't actually reflect the stats used by the game mechanics calculations and make that combat actually work with fixed stats which are independent from how the player actually built their two characters?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Philipp
                  9 hours ago












                • $begingroup$
                  @Philipp Chris is suggesting that you give the player an outside mark to gauge their (and their foil's) power. Take the simple case of damage being Attacker's Power minus Defenders Defense taken from Defender's HP; if you multiply all the numbers by 1 million, nothing actually changes - if the Villain and the Hero are relatively similar, there's no power gauge and the play feels stale from level 0-1000. If you have something to compare to outside - like an NPC that doesn't grow, or scenes where a character shows their power (wiping out a town, carrying a mountain, etc), it's more visceral.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Delioth
                  6 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  cough Undertale cough
                  $endgroup$
                  – Beefster
                  4 hours ago


















                • $begingroup$
                  I'm not sure if I understand the second to last paragraph correctly. Are you implying to display fake numbers to the player which don't actually reflect the stats used by the game mechanics calculations and make that combat actually work with fixed stats which are independent from how the player actually built their two characters?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Philipp
                  9 hours ago












                • $begingroup$
                  @Philipp Chris is suggesting that you give the player an outside mark to gauge their (and their foil's) power. Take the simple case of damage being Attacker's Power minus Defenders Defense taken from Defender's HP; if you multiply all the numbers by 1 million, nothing actually changes - if the Villain and the Hero are relatively similar, there's no power gauge and the play feels stale from level 0-1000. If you have something to compare to outside - like an NPC that doesn't grow, or scenes where a character shows their power (wiping out a town, carrying a mountain, etc), it's more visceral.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Delioth
                  6 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  cough Undertale cough
                  $endgroup$
                  – Beefster
                  4 hours ago
















                $begingroup$
                I'm not sure if I understand the second to last paragraph correctly. Are you implying to display fake numbers to the player which don't actually reflect the stats used by the game mechanics calculations and make that combat actually work with fixed stats which are independent from how the player actually built their two characters?
                $endgroup$
                – Philipp
                9 hours ago






                $begingroup$
                I'm not sure if I understand the second to last paragraph correctly. Are you implying to display fake numbers to the player which don't actually reflect the stats used by the game mechanics calculations and make that combat actually work with fixed stats which are independent from how the player actually built their two characters?
                $endgroup$
                – Philipp
                9 hours ago














                $begingroup$
                @Philipp Chris is suggesting that you give the player an outside mark to gauge their (and their foil's) power. Take the simple case of damage being Attacker's Power minus Defenders Defense taken from Defender's HP; if you multiply all the numbers by 1 million, nothing actually changes - if the Villain and the Hero are relatively similar, there's no power gauge and the play feels stale from level 0-1000. If you have something to compare to outside - like an NPC that doesn't grow, or scenes where a character shows their power (wiping out a town, carrying a mountain, etc), it's more visceral.
                $endgroup$
                – Delioth
                6 hours ago




                $begingroup$
                @Philipp Chris is suggesting that you give the player an outside mark to gauge their (and their foil's) power. Take the simple case of damage being Attacker's Power minus Defenders Defense taken from Defender's HP; if you multiply all the numbers by 1 million, nothing actually changes - if the Villain and the Hero are relatively similar, there's no power gauge and the play feels stale from level 0-1000. If you have something to compare to outside - like an NPC that doesn't grow, or scenes where a character shows their power (wiping out a town, carrying a mountain, etc), it's more visceral.
                $endgroup$
                – Delioth
                6 hours ago












                $begingroup$
                cough Undertale cough
                $endgroup$
                – Beefster
                4 hours ago




                $begingroup$
                cough Undertale cough
                $endgroup$
                – Beefster
                4 hours ago











                1












                $begingroup$

                Create a system of counters.



                For example if players are going to be mages, create a system where there are 3 schools of magic: fire, water and nature. Fire is powerful against nature, weak against water. Water is powerful against fire, weak against nature. Nature is powerful against water, weak against fire. Then when the player creates a powerful fire mage villain, make the hero a water mage. And so on...



                Or when the villain is a stealth-based character, give the hero high perception and revealing spells. When the villain is a high-mobility character, give the hero some items that slow down and/or restrict movement. When the villain is heavily armored, give the hero spells that ignore armor (or even ones where metal armor amplifies the damage).






                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                user31389 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.






                $endgroup$









                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  I'd like to see a version of this where the hero's character development choices are also in the player's hands, rather than automatically countering the villain. Then the player can choose whether they want to spec into a counter build (recommended path), or deliberately up the challenge for themselves by choosing a build over which their villain has an advantage.
                  $endgroup$
                  – DMGregory
                  5 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  @DMGregory Oh yeah, you can do that too. Make villain weaknesses and their counters known but let the hero do what they want.
                  $endgroup$
                  – user31389
                  5 hours ago
















                1












                $begingroup$

                Create a system of counters.



                For example if players are going to be mages, create a system where there are 3 schools of magic: fire, water and nature. Fire is powerful against nature, weak against water. Water is powerful against fire, weak against nature. Nature is powerful against water, weak against fire. Then when the player creates a powerful fire mage villain, make the hero a water mage. And so on...



                Or when the villain is a stealth-based character, give the hero high perception and revealing spells. When the villain is a high-mobility character, give the hero some items that slow down and/or restrict movement. When the villain is heavily armored, give the hero spells that ignore armor (or even ones where metal armor amplifies the damage).






                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                user31389 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.






                $endgroup$









                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  I'd like to see a version of this where the hero's character development choices are also in the player's hands, rather than automatically countering the villain. Then the player can choose whether they want to spec into a counter build (recommended path), or deliberately up the challenge for themselves by choosing a build over which their villain has an advantage.
                  $endgroup$
                  – DMGregory
                  5 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  @DMGregory Oh yeah, you can do that too. Make villain weaknesses and their counters known but let the hero do what they want.
                  $endgroup$
                  – user31389
                  5 hours ago














                1












                1








                1





                $begingroup$

                Create a system of counters.



                For example if players are going to be mages, create a system where there are 3 schools of magic: fire, water and nature. Fire is powerful against nature, weak against water. Water is powerful against fire, weak against nature. Nature is powerful against water, weak against fire. Then when the player creates a powerful fire mage villain, make the hero a water mage. And so on...



                Or when the villain is a stealth-based character, give the hero high perception and revealing spells. When the villain is a high-mobility character, give the hero some items that slow down and/or restrict movement. When the villain is heavily armored, give the hero spells that ignore armor (or even ones where metal armor amplifies the damage).






                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                user31389 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.






                $endgroup$



                Create a system of counters.



                For example if players are going to be mages, create a system where there are 3 schools of magic: fire, water and nature. Fire is powerful against nature, weak against water. Water is powerful against fire, weak against nature. Nature is powerful against water, weak against fire. Then when the player creates a powerful fire mage villain, make the hero a water mage. And so on...



                Or when the villain is a stealth-based character, give the hero high perception and revealing spells. When the villain is a high-mobility character, give the hero some items that slow down and/or restrict movement. When the villain is heavily armored, give the hero spells that ignore armor (or even ones where metal armor amplifies the damage).







                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                user31389 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited 7 hours ago





















                New contributor




                user31389 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                answered 7 hours ago









                user31389user31389

                1113




                1113




                New contributor




                user31389 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.





                New contributor





                user31389 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.






                user31389 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.








                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  I'd like to see a version of this where the hero's character development choices are also in the player's hands, rather than automatically countering the villain. Then the player can choose whether they want to spec into a counter build (recommended path), or deliberately up the challenge for themselves by choosing a build over which their villain has an advantage.
                  $endgroup$
                  – DMGregory
                  5 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  @DMGregory Oh yeah, you can do that too. Make villain weaknesses and their counters known but let the hero do what they want.
                  $endgroup$
                  – user31389
                  5 hours ago














                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  I'd like to see a version of this where the hero's character development choices are also in the player's hands, rather than automatically countering the villain. Then the player can choose whether they want to spec into a counter build (recommended path), or deliberately up the challenge for themselves by choosing a build over which their villain has an advantage.
                  $endgroup$
                  – DMGregory
                  5 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  @DMGregory Oh yeah, you can do that too. Make villain weaknesses and their counters known but let the hero do what they want.
                  $endgroup$
                  – user31389
                  5 hours ago








                1




                1




                $begingroup$
                I'd like to see a version of this where the hero's character development choices are also in the player's hands, rather than automatically countering the villain. Then the player can choose whether they want to spec into a counter build (recommended path), or deliberately up the challenge for themselves by choosing a build over which their villain has an advantage.
                $endgroup$
                – DMGregory
                5 hours ago




                $begingroup$
                I'd like to see a version of this where the hero's character development choices are also in the player's hands, rather than automatically countering the villain. Then the player can choose whether they want to spec into a counter build (recommended path), or deliberately up the challenge for themselves by choosing a build over which their villain has an advantage.
                $endgroup$
                – DMGregory
                5 hours ago












                $begingroup$
                @DMGregory Oh yeah, you can do that too. Make villain weaknesses and their counters known but let the hero do what they want.
                $endgroup$
                – user31389
                5 hours ago




                $begingroup$
                @DMGregory Oh yeah, you can do that too. Make villain weaknesses and their counters known but let the hero do what they want.
                $endgroup$
                – user31389
                5 hours ago











                1












                $begingroup$

                Make it spoiler-proof



                If the game becomes popular, any secrets will be spoiled, so don't make it depend on secrets being kept from the player for it to be fun.



                Dr. Jekyll, meet Mr. Hyde



                Give the main character some trait that allows them to be both superhero and villain at the same time without realizing it, though somehow with two separate but inextricably linked bodies. Gradually reveal this fact with clues (perhaps revealed as a reward for good game-play) so that astute players can figure out early on and have the best possible chance against themselves. At certain points clearly reveal pieces of this info to all players (e.g. in cut scenes) so that no player is blindsided when they reach the final battle.



                The greater the struggle, the greater the honor



                Reward players who take the most difficult path and win with the greatest honor (points, badges, etc.) so players will not be motivated to slack off in the beginning just to win.



                Why play only one side?



                In fact you could have the player actually play both hero and villain simultaneously (switching back and forth between the two separate "games" representing the hero's and villain's journey to face one another), and winning the game requires that they win both halves of the game along with the final battle from the hero's perspective. After all, what's a hero without villain? So if the player makes the main character so weak that they can't get the villain to the final battle to face the hero, they lose. And likewise for the hero. They only win if they get both halves (Jekyll and Hyde) to the final battle and then the hero defeats the villain.



                P.S. If you want the villain to win as the goal, then just reverse the labels "hero" and "villain" in the description above.






                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                bob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.






                $endgroup$


















                  1












                  $begingroup$

                  Make it spoiler-proof



                  If the game becomes popular, any secrets will be spoiled, so don't make it depend on secrets being kept from the player for it to be fun.



                  Dr. Jekyll, meet Mr. Hyde



                  Give the main character some trait that allows them to be both superhero and villain at the same time without realizing it, though somehow with two separate but inextricably linked bodies. Gradually reveal this fact with clues (perhaps revealed as a reward for good game-play) so that astute players can figure out early on and have the best possible chance against themselves. At certain points clearly reveal pieces of this info to all players (e.g. in cut scenes) so that no player is blindsided when they reach the final battle.



                  The greater the struggle, the greater the honor



                  Reward players who take the most difficult path and win with the greatest honor (points, badges, etc.) so players will not be motivated to slack off in the beginning just to win.



                  Why play only one side?



                  In fact you could have the player actually play both hero and villain simultaneously (switching back and forth between the two separate "games" representing the hero's and villain's journey to face one another), and winning the game requires that they win both halves of the game along with the final battle from the hero's perspective. After all, what's a hero without villain? So if the player makes the main character so weak that they can't get the villain to the final battle to face the hero, they lose. And likewise for the hero. They only win if they get both halves (Jekyll and Hyde) to the final battle and then the hero defeats the villain.



                  P.S. If you want the villain to win as the goal, then just reverse the labels "hero" and "villain" in the description above.






                  share|improve this answer










                  New contributor




                  bob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.






                  $endgroup$
















                    1












                    1








                    1





                    $begingroup$

                    Make it spoiler-proof



                    If the game becomes popular, any secrets will be spoiled, so don't make it depend on secrets being kept from the player for it to be fun.



                    Dr. Jekyll, meet Mr. Hyde



                    Give the main character some trait that allows them to be both superhero and villain at the same time without realizing it, though somehow with two separate but inextricably linked bodies. Gradually reveal this fact with clues (perhaps revealed as a reward for good game-play) so that astute players can figure out early on and have the best possible chance against themselves. At certain points clearly reveal pieces of this info to all players (e.g. in cut scenes) so that no player is blindsided when they reach the final battle.



                    The greater the struggle, the greater the honor



                    Reward players who take the most difficult path and win with the greatest honor (points, badges, etc.) so players will not be motivated to slack off in the beginning just to win.



                    Why play only one side?



                    In fact you could have the player actually play both hero and villain simultaneously (switching back and forth between the two separate "games" representing the hero's and villain's journey to face one another), and winning the game requires that they win both halves of the game along with the final battle from the hero's perspective. After all, what's a hero without villain? So if the player makes the main character so weak that they can't get the villain to the final battle to face the hero, they lose. And likewise for the hero. They only win if they get both halves (Jekyll and Hyde) to the final battle and then the hero defeats the villain.



                    P.S. If you want the villain to win as the goal, then just reverse the labels "hero" and "villain" in the description above.






                    share|improve this answer










                    New contributor




                    bob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.






                    $endgroup$



                    Make it spoiler-proof



                    If the game becomes popular, any secrets will be spoiled, so don't make it depend on secrets being kept from the player for it to be fun.



                    Dr. Jekyll, meet Mr. Hyde



                    Give the main character some trait that allows them to be both superhero and villain at the same time without realizing it, though somehow with two separate but inextricably linked bodies. Gradually reveal this fact with clues (perhaps revealed as a reward for good game-play) so that astute players can figure out early on and have the best possible chance against themselves. At certain points clearly reveal pieces of this info to all players (e.g. in cut scenes) so that no player is blindsided when they reach the final battle.



                    The greater the struggle, the greater the honor



                    Reward players who take the most difficult path and win with the greatest honor (points, badges, etc.) so players will not be motivated to slack off in the beginning just to win.



                    Why play only one side?



                    In fact you could have the player actually play both hero and villain simultaneously (switching back and forth between the two separate "games" representing the hero's and villain's journey to face one another), and winning the game requires that they win both halves of the game along with the final battle from the hero's perspective. After all, what's a hero without villain? So if the player makes the main character so weak that they can't get the villain to the final battle to face the hero, they lose. And likewise for the hero. They only win if they get both halves (Jekyll and Hyde) to the final battle and then the hero defeats the villain.



                    P.S. If you want the villain to win as the goal, then just reverse the labels "hero" and "villain" in the description above.







                    share|improve this answer










                    New contributor




                    bob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.









                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited 3 hours ago





















                    New contributor




                    bob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.









                    answered 3 hours ago









                    bobbob

                    1113




                    1113




                    New contributor




                    bob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.





                    New contributor





                    bob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.






                    bob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.























                        0












                        $begingroup$

                        Exclusive Choices



                        There are sources of "power" in the game (be they artifacts, allies, skills or actual supernatural/futuristic powers), but the first character can't get all of them. Getting one locks another out (perhaps it's an issue that the powers actually counter each other or you can't wear two pieces of the same kind of equipment or just there's not enough time to get all of them). Character 2 will have to go get the complementary powers to fight character 1.



                        Bonus points if getting too many powers causes the first character to go villain so the second character can't get all the complementary powers and has to deal with being less powerful for extra difficulty.






                        share|improve this answer








                        New contributor




                        user125566 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.






                        $endgroup$


















                          0












                          $begingroup$

                          Exclusive Choices



                          There are sources of "power" in the game (be they artifacts, allies, skills or actual supernatural/futuristic powers), but the first character can't get all of them. Getting one locks another out (perhaps it's an issue that the powers actually counter each other or you can't wear two pieces of the same kind of equipment or just there's not enough time to get all of them). Character 2 will have to go get the complementary powers to fight character 1.



                          Bonus points if getting too many powers causes the first character to go villain so the second character can't get all the complementary powers and has to deal with being less powerful for extra difficulty.






                          share|improve this answer








                          New contributor




                          user125566 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                          Check out our Code of Conduct.






                          $endgroup$
















                            0












                            0








                            0





                            $begingroup$

                            Exclusive Choices



                            There are sources of "power" in the game (be they artifacts, allies, skills or actual supernatural/futuristic powers), but the first character can't get all of them. Getting one locks another out (perhaps it's an issue that the powers actually counter each other or you can't wear two pieces of the same kind of equipment or just there's not enough time to get all of them). Character 2 will have to go get the complementary powers to fight character 1.



                            Bonus points if getting too many powers causes the first character to go villain so the second character can't get all the complementary powers and has to deal with being less powerful for extra difficulty.






                            share|improve this answer








                            New contributor




                            user125566 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.






                            $endgroup$



                            Exclusive Choices



                            There are sources of "power" in the game (be they artifacts, allies, skills or actual supernatural/futuristic powers), but the first character can't get all of them. Getting one locks another out (perhaps it's an issue that the powers actually counter each other or you can't wear two pieces of the same kind of equipment or just there's not enough time to get all of them). Character 2 will have to go get the complementary powers to fight character 1.



                            Bonus points if getting too many powers causes the first character to go villain so the second character can't get all the complementary powers and has to deal with being less powerful for extra difficulty.







                            share|improve this answer








                            New contributor




                            user125566 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.









                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer






                            New contributor




                            user125566 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.









                            answered 3 hours ago









                            user125566user125566

                            1




                            1




                            New contributor




                            user125566 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.





                            New contributor





                            user125566 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.






                            user125566 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.






























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