What’s the underlying grammar behind starting off a ɢᴇʀᴜɴᴅ clause with an...
Yesterday I encountered this sentence (I’ll refer to the numbered words in
my question below):
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to
be ‘complex’ (they don’t!) and¹ them² not understanding³ what a ‘complex’
sentence is.
I just can't understand the grammatical construction after the linking
word, and¹.
Why did the writer use the ‑ing form³ of the verb after an object pronoun
them²? And why did he start a sentence with an object pronoun in the
first place?
Source: https://www.ieltsadvantage.com/2015/03/27/ielts-writing-complex-sentence/
syntactic-analysis grammatical-case complex-sentences compound-sentences gerund-phrases
add a comment |
Yesterday I encountered this sentence (I’ll refer to the numbered words in
my question below):
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to
be ‘complex’ (they don’t!) and¹ them² not understanding³ what a ‘complex’
sentence is.
I just can't understand the grammatical construction after the linking
word, and¹.
Why did the writer use the ‑ing form³ of the verb after an object pronoun
them²? And why did he start a sentence with an object pronoun in the
first place?
Source: https://www.ieltsadvantage.com/2015/03/27/ielts-writing-complex-sentence/
syntactic-analysis grammatical-case complex-sentences compound-sentences gerund-phrases
Would it be clearer to you if it said “… and their not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.”? The “-ing” word (“understanding”) is a gerund, and people disagree on the form of the noun or pronoun that appears before it (e.g., “The dog’s barking woke me.” vs. “The dog barking woke me.”)
– Scott
Nov 3 '18 at 10:23
It's an example of a lack of parallelism. Stylistically, both verbs should take the same form. ("students think and don't understand" or "students thinking and not understanding"). It's not actually an error as it is, but it would sound better if it were rephrased.
– Jason Bassford
Nov 3 '18 at 16:03
4
@JasonBassford It is an error: “because them/their not understanding…” is ungrammatical; it needs an of.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Nov 3 '18 at 19:05
add a comment |
Yesterday I encountered this sentence (I’ll refer to the numbered words in
my question below):
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to
be ‘complex’ (they don’t!) and¹ them² not understanding³ what a ‘complex’
sentence is.
I just can't understand the grammatical construction after the linking
word, and¹.
Why did the writer use the ‑ing form³ of the verb after an object pronoun
them²? And why did he start a sentence with an object pronoun in the
first place?
Source: https://www.ieltsadvantage.com/2015/03/27/ielts-writing-complex-sentence/
syntactic-analysis grammatical-case complex-sentences compound-sentences gerund-phrases
Yesterday I encountered this sentence (I’ll refer to the numbered words in
my question below):
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to
be ‘complex’ (they don’t!) and¹ them² not understanding³ what a ‘complex’
sentence is.
I just can't understand the grammatical construction after the linking
word, and¹.
Why did the writer use the ‑ing form³ of the verb after an object pronoun
them²? And why did he start a sentence with an object pronoun in the
first place?
Source: https://www.ieltsadvantage.com/2015/03/27/ielts-writing-complex-sentence/
syntactic-analysis grammatical-case complex-sentences compound-sentences gerund-phrases
syntactic-analysis grammatical-case complex-sentences compound-sentences gerund-phrases
edited Nov 6 '18 at 16:14
Andrew Wilson
asked Nov 3 '18 at 9:51
Andrew WilsonAndrew Wilson
112
112
Would it be clearer to you if it said “… and their not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.”? The “-ing” word (“understanding”) is a gerund, and people disagree on the form of the noun or pronoun that appears before it (e.g., “The dog’s barking woke me.” vs. “The dog barking woke me.”)
– Scott
Nov 3 '18 at 10:23
It's an example of a lack of parallelism. Stylistically, both verbs should take the same form. ("students think and don't understand" or "students thinking and not understanding"). It's not actually an error as it is, but it would sound better if it were rephrased.
– Jason Bassford
Nov 3 '18 at 16:03
4
@JasonBassford It is an error: “because them/their not understanding…” is ungrammatical; it needs an of.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Nov 3 '18 at 19:05
add a comment |
Would it be clearer to you if it said “… and their not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.”? The “-ing” word (“understanding”) is a gerund, and people disagree on the form of the noun or pronoun that appears before it (e.g., “The dog’s barking woke me.” vs. “The dog barking woke me.”)
– Scott
Nov 3 '18 at 10:23
It's an example of a lack of parallelism. Stylistically, both verbs should take the same form. ("students think and don't understand" or "students thinking and not understanding"). It's not actually an error as it is, but it would sound better if it were rephrased.
– Jason Bassford
Nov 3 '18 at 16:03
4
@JasonBassford It is an error: “because them/their not understanding…” is ungrammatical; it needs an of.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Nov 3 '18 at 19:05
Would it be clearer to you if it said “… and their not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.”? The “-ing” word (“understanding”) is a gerund, and people disagree on the form of the noun or pronoun that appears before it (e.g., “The dog’s barking woke me.” vs. “The dog barking woke me.”)
– Scott
Nov 3 '18 at 10:23
Would it be clearer to you if it said “… and their not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.”? The “-ing” word (“understanding”) is a gerund, and people disagree on the form of the noun or pronoun that appears before it (e.g., “The dog’s barking woke me.” vs. “The dog barking woke me.”)
– Scott
Nov 3 '18 at 10:23
It's an example of a lack of parallelism. Stylistically, both verbs should take the same form. ("students think and don't understand" or "students thinking and not understanding"). It's not actually an error as it is, but it would sound better if it were rephrased.
– Jason Bassford
Nov 3 '18 at 16:03
It's an example of a lack of parallelism. Stylistically, both verbs should take the same form. ("students think and don't understand" or "students thinking and not understanding"). It's not actually an error as it is, but it would sound better if it were rephrased.
– Jason Bassford
Nov 3 '18 at 16:03
4
4
@JasonBassford It is an error: “because them/their not understanding…” is ungrammatical; it needs an of.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Nov 3 '18 at 19:05
@JasonBassford It is an error: “because them/their not understanding…” is ungrammatical; it needs an of.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Nov 3 '18 at 19:05
add a comment |
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
This sentence:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences
need to be complex and them not understanding what a complex sentence
is.
is apt to provoke grammatical confusion because you aren’t initially
certain about what two syntactic constituents (call them X and
Y) which the conjunction and is coordinating. The value of
constituent Y following the conjunction is always the same (“them
not understanding what a complex sentence is”), but exactly what
X is varies in length. Is it (1) need X and Y, or is it (2)
think that X and Y, or is it (3) because X and Y?
Here are those three possibilities:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences
need X and Y:
This is because many
students think that all of their sentences need (X=to be
complex) and (Y=them not understanding what a complex sentence
is).This is because many students think that X and
Y:
This is because many students think that
(X=all of their sentences need to be complex) and (Y=them
not understanding what a complex sentence is).This is because X and Y:
This is
because (X=many students think that all of their sentences
need to be complex) and (Y=them not understanding what a
complex sentence is).
The closest to a correct parse is the third one, which it takes your brain more
time to work out for several reasons. One reason is because it’s
the longest possible value for X, so your mental parser backing up
to find something that makes sense hits the two shorter possibilities
first before it comes upon the correct choice.
Another reason is because of because not accepting a noun phrase
complement without the preposition of. So never just “because not
understanding”, only ever “because of not understanding”. (Credit to Janus for noticing this.)
The last reason is that the two constituents being coordinated here are not
quite the same thing: X is a finite verb clause but Y is a
non-finite verb clause. This is contributing to your other
confusion, since the subjects are no longer in the same case.
Finite verbs have mandatory subjects that when they’re pronouns
are in the subject case (like I, he, them).
But the optional subjects of non-finite verbs, when pronouns,
cannot be in the subject case. They have to be in the object case
(like me, him, them) or in their possessive determiner forms (my,
his, them).
So that’s what’s happening here: them is the subject of the gerund
clause headed by the non-finite verb understanding.
It would have been more compassionate if the writer had recognizes
the potential for confusion here and slightly restructured the
sentence to add more sentinels to help the reader parse the sentence
more easily.
Here are a few possibilities in that regard:
This is not only because many students think that all of their
sentences need to be complex, but also because of not understanding
what a complex sentence is to start with.
This is because many students think that all of their sentences
need to be complex and because they don’t understand what a complex
sentence is in the first place.
This is because of many students thinking all their sentences
need to be complex and not understanding what a complex sentence
is.
Those should all be easier on the reader than the original.
Once you understand what was changed in each of them to facilitate
comprehension, you will begin to see where you foundered in the unchanged
sentence you first presented.
1
There’s also the fact that the sentence is ungrammatical. The preposition because cannot take gerund clauses as its object as it does here. It can (recently, and still somewhat Internettily) take plain NP objects, but not gerund clauses. Those need to be headed by the preposition of to be grammatical (“because of them not understanding…”). And of course of conversely cannot take finite clauses as its object, so you can’t just insert it after the existing because here: the only grammatical option is to repeat the elided because and add of.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Nov 3 '18 at 19:04
@JanusBahsJacquet Good catch! I instinctively resupplied the missing preposition in my suggested alternates that use gerund clauses.
– tchrist♦
Nov 3 '18 at 19:34
add a comment |
In a comment, BillJ wrote:
... and them not understanding what a
‘complex’ sentence is.
There is a structural problem with your sentence (as others have pointed out) but leaving that aside, the answer to your question is that non-finite gerund-participial clauses take accusative and genitive subjects. In your example, the pronoun is subject of the non-finite clause "them not understanding what a complex sentence is", so the subject could be either accusative "them" or genitive "their".
add a comment |
The overall structure of your example is: [S this is because S ], by which I mean that the whole thing, [S ... ], is a sentence S, and within that S is another S after "because". That S after "because" is [S many students think that all of their sentences need to be complex and them not understanding what a complex sentence is ].
Working our way down in the structure, this S seems to begins with an S "many students think that all of their sentences need to be complex" followed by "and". If so, we can appeal to a general principle about "and" to identify the structure of the rest. That principle is that "and" (together with other coordinate conjunctions) is preceded and followed by phrases of the same type, and that the entire phrase formed is itself a phrase of that very same type.
It follows that "them not understanding what a complex sentence is" must be an S, but that is a problem here, because what precedes the "and" is a finite (tensed) clause "all of their sentences need to be complex", while what we have here is not like that. As it stands the example appears to be unacceptable.
One way to repair the grammatical problem is to substitute the related finite clause [S they don't understand what a complex sentence is ]. Then, we'd have:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be complex, and they don't understand what a complex sentence is.
add a comment |
I think there's only one way to parse the sentence, as it is, as a grammatical one:
A coordination of these two clauses:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be ‘complex’ (they don’t!)
and
This is them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.
If this was intended, the sentence is awkward at best, though, in part because the them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is
is too far from This is
.
So, I'd like to parse it as a supplementation (instead of a coordination) by adding the necessary punctuation such as a comma or a dash:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be ‘complex’ (they don’t!), and them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.
And it's better to omit the 'and' as follows:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be ‘complex’ (they don’t!), them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.
add a comment |
In a comment, Jason Bassford wrote:
It's an example of a lack of parallelism. Stylistically, both verbs should take the same form. ("students think and don't understand" or "students thinking and not understanding"). It's not actually an error as it is, but it would sound better if it were rephrased.
add a comment |
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5 Answers
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5 Answers
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active
oldest
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oldest
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active
oldest
votes
This sentence:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences
need to be complex and them not understanding what a complex sentence
is.
is apt to provoke grammatical confusion because you aren’t initially
certain about what two syntactic constituents (call them X and
Y) which the conjunction and is coordinating. The value of
constituent Y following the conjunction is always the same (“them
not understanding what a complex sentence is”), but exactly what
X is varies in length. Is it (1) need X and Y, or is it (2)
think that X and Y, or is it (3) because X and Y?
Here are those three possibilities:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences
need X and Y:
This is because many
students think that all of their sentences need (X=to be
complex) and (Y=them not understanding what a complex sentence
is).This is because many students think that X and
Y:
This is because many students think that
(X=all of their sentences need to be complex) and (Y=them
not understanding what a complex sentence is).This is because X and Y:
This is
because (X=many students think that all of their sentences
need to be complex) and (Y=them not understanding what a
complex sentence is).
The closest to a correct parse is the third one, which it takes your brain more
time to work out for several reasons. One reason is because it’s
the longest possible value for X, so your mental parser backing up
to find something that makes sense hits the two shorter possibilities
first before it comes upon the correct choice.
Another reason is because of because not accepting a noun phrase
complement without the preposition of. So never just “because not
understanding”, only ever “because of not understanding”. (Credit to Janus for noticing this.)
The last reason is that the two constituents being coordinated here are not
quite the same thing: X is a finite verb clause but Y is a
non-finite verb clause. This is contributing to your other
confusion, since the subjects are no longer in the same case.
Finite verbs have mandatory subjects that when they’re pronouns
are in the subject case (like I, he, them).
But the optional subjects of non-finite verbs, when pronouns,
cannot be in the subject case. They have to be in the object case
(like me, him, them) or in their possessive determiner forms (my,
his, them).
So that’s what’s happening here: them is the subject of the gerund
clause headed by the non-finite verb understanding.
It would have been more compassionate if the writer had recognizes
the potential for confusion here and slightly restructured the
sentence to add more sentinels to help the reader parse the sentence
more easily.
Here are a few possibilities in that regard:
This is not only because many students think that all of their
sentences need to be complex, but also because of not understanding
what a complex sentence is to start with.
This is because many students think that all of their sentences
need to be complex and because they don’t understand what a complex
sentence is in the first place.
This is because of many students thinking all their sentences
need to be complex and not understanding what a complex sentence
is.
Those should all be easier on the reader than the original.
Once you understand what was changed in each of them to facilitate
comprehension, you will begin to see where you foundered in the unchanged
sentence you first presented.
1
There’s also the fact that the sentence is ungrammatical. The preposition because cannot take gerund clauses as its object as it does here. It can (recently, and still somewhat Internettily) take plain NP objects, but not gerund clauses. Those need to be headed by the preposition of to be grammatical (“because of them not understanding…”). And of course of conversely cannot take finite clauses as its object, so you can’t just insert it after the existing because here: the only grammatical option is to repeat the elided because and add of.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Nov 3 '18 at 19:04
@JanusBahsJacquet Good catch! I instinctively resupplied the missing preposition in my suggested alternates that use gerund clauses.
– tchrist♦
Nov 3 '18 at 19:34
add a comment |
This sentence:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences
need to be complex and them not understanding what a complex sentence
is.
is apt to provoke grammatical confusion because you aren’t initially
certain about what two syntactic constituents (call them X and
Y) which the conjunction and is coordinating. The value of
constituent Y following the conjunction is always the same (“them
not understanding what a complex sentence is”), but exactly what
X is varies in length. Is it (1) need X and Y, or is it (2)
think that X and Y, or is it (3) because X and Y?
Here are those three possibilities:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences
need X and Y:
This is because many
students think that all of their sentences need (X=to be
complex) and (Y=them not understanding what a complex sentence
is).This is because many students think that X and
Y:
This is because many students think that
(X=all of their sentences need to be complex) and (Y=them
not understanding what a complex sentence is).This is because X and Y:
This is
because (X=many students think that all of their sentences
need to be complex) and (Y=them not understanding what a
complex sentence is).
The closest to a correct parse is the third one, which it takes your brain more
time to work out for several reasons. One reason is because it’s
the longest possible value for X, so your mental parser backing up
to find something that makes sense hits the two shorter possibilities
first before it comes upon the correct choice.
Another reason is because of because not accepting a noun phrase
complement without the preposition of. So never just “because not
understanding”, only ever “because of not understanding”. (Credit to Janus for noticing this.)
The last reason is that the two constituents being coordinated here are not
quite the same thing: X is a finite verb clause but Y is a
non-finite verb clause. This is contributing to your other
confusion, since the subjects are no longer in the same case.
Finite verbs have mandatory subjects that when they’re pronouns
are in the subject case (like I, he, them).
But the optional subjects of non-finite verbs, when pronouns,
cannot be in the subject case. They have to be in the object case
(like me, him, them) or in their possessive determiner forms (my,
his, them).
So that’s what’s happening here: them is the subject of the gerund
clause headed by the non-finite verb understanding.
It would have been more compassionate if the writer had recognizes
the potential for confusion here and slightly restructured the
sentence to add more sentinels to help the reader parse the sentence
more easily.
Here are a few possibilities in that regard:
This is not only because many students think that all of their
sentences need to be complex, but also because of not understanding
what a complex sentence is to start with.
This is because many students think that all of their sentences
need to be complex and because they don’t understand what a complex
sentence is in the first place.
This is because of many students thinking all their sentences
need to be complex and not understanding what a complex sentence
is.
Those should all be easier on the reader than the original.
Once you understand what was changed in each of them to facilitate
comprehension, you will begin to see where you foundered in the unchanged
sentence you first presented.
1
There’s also the fact that the sentence is ungrammatical. The preposition because cannot take gerund clauses as its object as it does here. It can (recently, and still somewhat Internettily) take plain NP objects, but not gerund clauses. Those need to be headed by the preposition of to be grammatical (“because of them not understanding…”). And of course of conversely cannot take finite clauses as its object, so you can’t just insert it after the existing because here: the only grammatical option is to repeat the elided because and add of.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Nov 3 '18 at 19:04
@JanusBahsJacquet Good catch! I instinctively resupplied the missing preposition in my suggested alternates that use gerund clauses.
– tchrist♦
Nov 3 '18 at 19:34
add a comment |
This sentence:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences
need to be complex and them not understanding what a complex sentence
is.
is apt to provoke grammatical confusion because you aren’t initially
certain about what two syntactic constituents (call them X and
Y) which the conjunction and is coordinating. The value of
constituent Y following the conjunction is always the same (“them
not understanding what a complex sentence is”), but exactly what
X is varies in length. Is it (1) need X and Y, or is it (2)
think that X and Y, or is it (3) because X and Y?
Here are those three possibilities:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences
need X and Y:
This is because many
students think that all of their sentences need (X=to be
complex) and (Y=them not understanding what a complex sentence
is).This is because many students think that X and
Y:
This is because many students think that
(X=all of their sentences need to be complex) and (Y=them
not understanding what a complex sentence is).This is because X and Y:
This is
because (X=many students think that all of their sentences
need to be complex) and (Y=them not understanding what a
complex sentence is).
The closest to a correct parse is the third one, which it takes your brain more
time to work out for several reasons. One reason is because it’s
the longest possible value for X, so your mental parser backing up
to find something that makes sense hits the two shorter possibilities
first before it comes upon the correct choice.
Another reason is because of because not accepting a noun phrase
complement without the preposition of. So never just “because not
understanding”, only ever “because of not understanding”. (Credit to Janus for noticing this.)
The last reason is that the two constituents being coordinated here are not
quite the same thing: X is a finite verb clause but Y is a
non-finite verb clause. This is contributing to your other
confusion, since the subjects are no longer in the same case.
Finite verbs have mandatory subjects that when they’re pronouns
are in the subject case (like I, he, them).
But the optional subjects of non-finite verbs, when pronouns,
cannot be in the subject case. They have to be in the object case
(like me, him, them) or in their possessive determiner forms (my,
his, them).
So that’s what’s happening here: them is the subject of the gerund
clause headed by the non-finite verb understanding.
It would have been more compassionate if the writer had recognizes
the potential for confusion here and slightly restructured the
sentence to add more sentinels to help the reader parse the sentence
more easily.
Here are a few possibilities in that regard:
This is not only because many students think that all of their
sentences need to be complex, but also because of not understanding
what a complex sentence is to start with.
This is because many students think that all of their sentences
need to be complex and because they don’t understand what a complex
sentence is in the first place.
This is because of many students thinking all their sentences
need to be complex and not understanding what a complex sentence
is.
Those should all be easier on the reader than the original.
Once you understand what was changed in each of them to facilitate
comprehension, you will begin to see where you foundered in the unchanged
sentence you first presented.
This sentence:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences
need to be complex and them not understanding what a complex sentence
is.
is apt to provoke grammatical confusion because you aren’t initially
certain about what two syntactic constituents (call them X and
Y) which the conjunction and is coordinating. The value of
constituent Y following the conjunction is always the same (“them
not understanding what a complex sentence is”), but exactly what
X is varies in length. Is it (1) need X and Y, or is it (2)
think that X and Y, or is it (3) because X and Y?
Here are those three possibilities:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences
need X and Y:
This is because many
students think that all of their sentences need (X=to be
complex) and (Y=them not understanding what a complex sentence
is).This is because many students think that X and
Y:
This is because many students think that
(X=all of their sentences need to be complex) and (Y=them
not understanding what a complex sentence is).This is because X and Y:
This is
because (X=many students think that all of their sentences
need to be complex) and (Y=them not understanding what a
complex sentence is).
The closest to a correct parse is the third one, which it takes your brain more
time to work out for several reasons. One reason is because it’s
the longest possible value for X, so your mental parser backing up
to find something that makes sense hits the two shorter possibilities
first before it comes upon the correct choice.
Another reason is because of because not accepting a noun phrase
complement without the preposition of. So never just “because not
understanding”, only ever “because of not understanding”. (Credit to Janus for noticing this.)
The last reason is that the two constituents being coordinated here are not
quite the same thing: X is a finite verb clause but Y is a
non-finite verb clause. This is contributing to your other
confusion, since the subjects are no longer in the same case.
Finite verbs have mandatory subjects that when they’re pronouns
are in the subject case (like I, he, them).
But the optional subjects of non-finite verbs, when pronouns,
cannot be in the subject case. They have to be in the object case
(like me, him, them) or in their possessive determiner forms (my,
his, them).
So that’s what’s happening here: them is the subject of the gerund
clause headed by the non-finite verb understanding.
It would have been more compassionate if the writer had recognizes
the potential for confusion here and slightly restructured the
sentence to add more sentinels to help the reader parse the sentence
more easily.
Here are a few possibilities in that regard:
This is not only because many students think that all of their
sentences need to be complex, but also because of not understanding
what a complex sentence is to start with.
This is because many students think that all of their sentences
need to be complex and because they don’t understand what a complex
sentence is in the first place.
This is because of many students thinking all their sentences
need to be complex and not understanding what a complex sentence
is.
Those should all be easier on the reader than the original.
Once you understand what was changed in each of them to facilitate
comprehension, you will begin to see where you foundered in the unchanged
sentence you first presented.
edited Nov 3 '18 at 19:40
answered Nov 3 '18 at 17:09
tchrist♦tchrist
109k30292468
109k30292468
1
There’s also the fact that the sentence is ungrammatical. The preposition because cannot take gerund clauses as its object as it does here. It can (recently, and still somewhat Internettily) take plain NP objects, but not gerund clauses. Those need to be headed by the preposition of to be grammatical (“because of them not understanding…”). And of course of conversely cannot take finite clauses as its object, so you can’t just insert it after the existing because here: the only grammatical option is to repeat the elided because and add of.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Nov 3 '18 at 19:04
@JanusBahsJacquet Good catch! I instinctively resupplied the missing preposition in my suggested alternates that use gerund clauses.
– tchrist♦
Nov 3 '18 at 19:34
add a comment |
1
There’s also the fact that the sentence is ungrammatical. The preposition because cannot take gerund clauses as its object as it does here. It can (recently, and still somewhat Internettily) take plain NP objects, but not gerund clauses. Those need to be headed by the preposition of to be grammatical (“because of them not understanding…”). And of course of conversely cannot take finite clauses as its object, so you can’t just insert it after the existing because here: the only grammatical option is to repeat the elided because and add of.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Nov 3 '18 at 19:04
@JanusBahsJacquet Good catch! I instinctively resupplied the missing preposition in my suggested alternates that use gerund clauses.
– tchrist♦
Nov 3 '18 at 19:34
1
1
There’s also the fact that the sentence is ungrammatical. The preposition because cannot take gerund clauses as its object as it does here. It can (recently, and still somewhat Internettily) take plain NP objects, but not gerund clauses. Those need to be headed by the preposition of to be grammatical (“because of them not understanding…”). And of course of conversely cannot take finite clauses as its object, so you can’t just insert it after the existing because here: the only grammatical option is to repeat the elided because and add of.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Nov 3 '18 at 19:04
There’s also the fact that the sentence is ungrammatical. The preposition because cannot take gerund clauses as its object as it does here. It can (recently, and still somewhat Internettily) take plain NP objects, but not gerund clauses. Those need to be headed by the preposition of to be grammatical (“because of them not understanding…”). And of course of conversely cannot take finite clauses as its object, so you can’t just insert it after the existing because here: the only grammatical option is to repeat the elided because and add of.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Nov 3 '18 at 19:04
@JanusBahsJacquet Good catch! I instinctively resupplied the missing preposition in my suggested alternates that use gerund clauses.
– tchrist♦
Nov 3 '18 at 19:34
@JanusBahsJacquet Good catch! I instinctively resupplied the missing preposition in my suggested alternates that use gerund clauses.
– tchrist♦
Nov 3 '18 at 19:34
add a comment |
In a comment, BillJ wrote:
... and them not understanding what a
‘complex’ sentence is.
There is a structural problem with your sentence (as others have pointed out) but leaving that aside, the answer to your question is that non-finite gerund-participial clauses take accusative and genitive subjects. In your example, the pronoun is subject of the non-finite clause "them not understanding what a complex sentence is", so the subject could be either accusative "them" or genitive "their".
add a comment |
In a comment, BillJ wrote:
... and them not understanding what a
‘complex’ sentence is.
There is a structural problem with your sentence (as others have pointed out) but leaving that aside, the answer to your question is that non-finite gerund-participial clauses take accusative and genitive subjects. In your example, the pronoun is subject of the non-finite clause "them not understanding what a complex sentence is", so the subject could be either accusative "them" or genitive "their".
add a comment |
In a comment, BillJ wrote:
... and them not understanding what a
‘complex’ sentence is.
There is a structural problem with your sentence (as others have pointed out) but leaving that aside, the answer to your question is that non-finite gerund-participial clauses take accusative and genitive subjects. In your example, the pronoun is subject of the non-finite clause "them not understanding what a complex sentence is", so the subject could be either accusative "them" or genitive "their".
In a comment, BillJ wrote:
... and them not understanding what a
‘complex’ sentence is.
There is a structural problem with your sentence (as others have pointed out) but leaving that aside, the answer to your question is that non-finite gerund-participial clauses take accusative and genitive subjects. In your example, the pronoun is subject of the non-finite clause "them not understanding what a complex sentence is", so the subject could be either accusative "them" or genitive "their".
edited Nov 4 '18 at 7:43
community wiki
2 revs, 2 users 50%
tchrist
add a comment |
add a comment |
The overall structure of your example is: [S this is because S ], by which I mean that the whole thing, [S ... ], is a sentence S, and within that S is another S after "because". That S after "because" is [S many students think that all of their sentences need to be complex and them not understanding what a complex sentence is ].
Working our way down in the structure, this S seems to begins with an S "many students think that all of their sentences need to be complex" followed by "and". If so, we can appeal to a general principle about "and" to identify the structure of the rest. That principle is that "and" (together with other coordinate conjunctions) is preceded and followed by phrases of the same type, and that the entire phrase formed is itself a phrase of that very same type.
It follows that "them not understanding what a complex sentence is" must be an S, but that is a problem here, because what precedes the "and" is a finite (tensed) clause "all of their sentences need to be complex", while what we have here is not like that. As it stands the example appears to be unacceptable.
One way to repair the grammatical problem is to substitute the related finite clause [S they don't understand what a complex sentence is ]. Then, we'd have:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be complex, and they don't understand what a complex sentence is.
add a comment |
The overall structure of your example is: [S this is because S ], by which I mean that the whole thing, [S ... ], is a sentence S, and within that S is another S after "because". That S after "because" is [S many students think that all of their sentences need to be complex and them not understanding what a complex sentence is ].
Working our way down in the structure, this S seems to begins with an S "many students think that all of their sentences need to be complex" followed by "and". If so, we can appeal to a general principle about "and" to identify the structure of the rest. That principle is that "and" (together with other coordinate conjunctions) is preceded and followed by phrases of the same type, and that the entire phrase formed is itself a phrase of that very same type.
It follows that "them not understanding what a complex sentence is" must be an S, but that is a problem here, because what precedes the "and" is a finite (tensed) clause "all of their sentences need to be complex", while what we have here is not like that. As it stands the example appears to be unacceptable.
One way to repair the grammatical problem is to substitute the related finite clause [S they don't understand what a complex sentence is ]. Then, we'd have:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be complex, and they don't understand what a complex sentence is.
add a comment |
The overall structure of your example is: [S this is because S ], by which I mean that the whole thing, [S ... ], is a sentence S, and within that S is another S after "because". That S after "because" is [S many students think that all of their sentences need to be complex and them not understanding what a complex sentence is ].
Working our way down in the structure, this S seems to begins with an S "many students think that all of their sentences need to be complex" followed by "and". If so, we can appeal to a general principle about "and" to identify the structure of the rest. That principle is that "and" (together with other coordinate conjunctions) is preceded and followed by phrases of the same type, and that the entire phrase formed is itself a phrase of that very same type.
It follows that "them not understanding what a complex sentence is" must be an S, but that is a problem here, because what precedes the "and" is a finite (tensed) clause "all of their sentences need to be complex", while what we have here is not like that. As it stands the example appears to be unacceptable.
One way to repair the grammatical problem is to substitute the related finite clause [S they don't understand what a complex sentence is ]. Then, we'd have:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be complex, and they don't understand what a complex sentence is.
The overall structure of your example is: [S this is because S ], by which I mean that the whole thing, [S ... ], is a sentence S, and within that S is another S after "because". That S after "because" is [S many students think that all of their sentences need to be complex and them not understanding what a complex sentence is ].
Working our way down in the structure, this S seems to begins with an S "many students think that all of their sentences need to be complex" followed by "and". If so, we can appeal to a general principle about "and" to identify the structure of the rest. That principle is that "and" (together with other coordinate conjunctions) is preceded and followed by phrases of the same type, and that the entire phrase formed is itself a phrase of that very same type.
It follows that "them not understanding what a complex sentence is" must be an S, but that is a problem here, because what precedes the "and" is a finite (tensed) clause "all of their sentences need to be complex", while what we have here is not like that. As it stands the example appears to be unacceptable.
One way to repair the grammatical problem is to substitute the related finite clause [S they don't understand what a complex sentence is ]. Then, we'd have:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be complex, and they don't understand what a complex sentence is.
edited Nov 6 '18 at 20:29
answered Nov 3 '18 at 23:10
Greg LeeGreg Lee
14.5k2931
14.5k2931
add a comment |
add a comment |
I think there's only one way to parse the sentence, as it is, as a grammatical one:
A coordination of these two clauses:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be ‘complex’ (they don’t!)
and
This is them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.
If this was intended, the sentence is awkward at best, though, in part because the them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is
is too far from This is
.
So, I'd like to parse it as a supplementation (instead of a coordination) by adding the necessary punctuation such as a comma or a dash:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be ‘complex’ (they don’t!), and them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.
And it's better to omit the 'and' as follows:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be ‘complex’ (they don’t!), them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.
add a comment |
I think there's only one way to parse the sentence, as it is, as a grammatical one:
A coordination of these two clauses:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be ‘complex’ (they don’t!)
and
This is them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.
If this was intended, the sentence is awkward at best, though, in part because the them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is
is too far from This is
.
So, I'd like to parse it as a supplementation (instead of a coordination) by adding the necessary punctuation such as a comma or a dash:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be ‘complex’ (they don’t!), and them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.
And it's better to omit the 'and' as follows:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be ‘complex’ (they don’t!), them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.
add a comment |
I think there's only one way to parse the sentence, as it is, as a grammatical one:
A coordination of these two clauses:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be ‘complex’ (they don’t!)
and
This is them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.
If this was intended, the sentence is awkward at best, though, in part because the them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is
is too far from This is
.
So, I'd like to parse it as a supplementation (instead of a coordination) by adding the necessary punctuation such as a comma or a dash:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be ‘complex’ (they don’t!), and them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.
And it's better to omit the 'and' as follows:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be ‘complex’ (they don’t!), them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.
I think there's only one way to parse the sentence, as it is, as a grammatical one:
A coordination of these two clauses:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be ‘complex’ (they don’t!)
and
This is them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.
If this was intended, the sentence is awkward at best, though, in part because the them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is
is too far from This is
.
So, I'd like to parse it as a supplementation (instead of a coordination) by adding the necessary punctuation such as a comma or a dash:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be ‘complex’ (they don’t!), and them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.
And it's better to omit the 'and' as follows:
This is because many students think that all of their sentences need to be ‘complex’ (they don’t!), them not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.
answered 25 mins ago
JK2JK2
41411751
41411751
add a comment |
add a comment |
In a comment, Jason Bassford wrote:
It's an example of a lack of parallelism. Stylistically, both verbs should take the same form. ("students think and don't understand" or "students thinking and not understanding"). It's not actually an error as it is, but it would sound better if it were rephrased.
add a comment |
In a comment, Jason Bassford wrote:
It's an example of a lack of parallelism. Stylistically, both verbs should take the same form. ("students think and don't understand" or "students thinking and not understanding"). It's not actually an error as it is, but it would sound better if it were rephrased.
add a comment |
In a comment, Jason Bassford wrote:
It's an example of a lack of parallelism. Stylistically, both verbs should take the same form. ("students think and don't understand" or "students thinking and not understanding"). It's not actually an error as it is, but it would sound better if it were rephrased.
In a comment, Jason Bassford wrote:
It's an example of a lack of parallelism. Stylistically, both verbs should take the same form. ("students think and don't understand" or "students thinking and not understanding"). It's not actually an error as it is, but it would sound better if it were rephrased.
answered Nov 3 '18 at 16:17
community wiki
tchrist
add a comment |
add a comment |
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Would it be clearer to you if it said “… and their not understanding what a ‘complex’ sentence is.”? The “-ing” word (“understanding”) is a gerund, and people disagree on the form of the noun or pronoun that appears before it (e.g., “The dog’s barking woke me.” vs. “The dog barking woke me.”)
– Scott
Nov 3 '18 at 10:23
It's an example of a lack of parallelism. Stylistically, both verbs should take the same form. ("students think and don't understand" or "students thinking and not understanding"). It's not actually an error as it is, but it would sound better if it were rephrased.
– Jason Bassford
Nov 3 '18 at 16:03
4
@JasonBassford It is an error: “because them/their not understanding…” is ungrammatical; it needs an of.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Nov 3 '18 at 19:05