Final /s/ vs /z/ sound at the end of verbs/nouns issue [duplicate]
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This question already has an answer here:
Are “whores” and “horse” homophones?
5 answers
The pronunciation of ending “s”
2 answers
Does “fathers” in RP exclude R and unvoice the S?
3 answers
About pronouncing the 's' in plural nouns
2 answers
So, I've seen this rule at several English books about how if a word has a voiced final sound (e.g. r, voiced th, l, m, n..) then added 's' is pronounced more like /z/. If the final sound is voiceless (e.g. t, p, k etc) then it's pronounced like /s/.
(https://tarlespeech.com/rule-for-using-the-s-versus-z-sound-at-the-end-of-verbs-and-nouns/)
But, in practice, I see this rule violated often for several instances, at least in GenAmE (standard/General American Accent). Examples:
Some words ending with L/N sounds: Falls, malls, aliens, holes
(sounds like final s is still /s/ not /z/ in falls, malls, aliens,
wells, holes)
Doesn’t seem to happen in some words ending with ‘m’: E.g. dreams,
problems, times
Doesn't happen for some words ending in ‘r’: E.g. truckers/f**ers
seems to be pronounced with /s/ at the end rather than /z/
I can see some people still using slight /z/ sound (not full blown /z/ but somewhere in the middle of /s/ and /z/) but I think many standard US english speakers still would be pronouncing them with more of /s/ than /z/ sound in the final position for these words. It also seems like people aim for /s/ sound but since the final sound in the word was voiced, a slight /z/ (not full-blown) may sneak in, which may give the impression of a slight /z/ mixed with /s/. Still, in these cases, the "Rule" doesn't apply and is more of an aberration than the standard practice.
Questions:
Why is this then stated as a 'rule' when clearly it's not so cut-and-dried?
Can someone explain the basis for this so-called 'rule' when there are so many instances of standard american speech pattern deviating from it?
grammatical-number pronunciation possessives north-american-english accent
asked 3 hours ago
Joe BlackJoe Black
4721618
marked as duplicate by sumelic pronunciation
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27 mins ago
This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.
|
show 5 more comments
This question already has an answer here:
Are “whores” and “horse” homophones?
5 answers
The pronunciation of ending “s”
2 answers
Does “fathers” in RP exclude R and unvoice the S?
3 answers
About pronouncing the 's' in plural nouns
2 answers
So, I've seen this rule at several English books about how if a word has a voiced final sound (e.g. r, voiced th, l, m, n..) then added 's' is pronounced more like /z/. If the final sound is voiceless (e.g. t, p, k etc) then it's pronounced like /s/.
(https://tarlespeech.com/rule-for-using-the-s-versus-z-sound-at-the-end-of-verbs-and-nouns/)
But, in practice, I see this rule violated often for several instances, at least in GenAmE (standard/General American Accent). Examples:
Some words ending with L/N sounds: Falls, malls, aliens, holes
(sounds like final s is still /s/ not /z/ in falls, malls, aliens,
wells, holes)
Doesn’t seem to happen in some words ending with ‘m’: E.g. dreams,
problems, times
Doesn't happen for some words ending in ‘r’: E.g. truckers/f**ers
seems to be pronounced with /s/ at the end rather than /z/
I can see some people still using slight /z/ sound (not full blown /z/ but somewhere in the middle of /s/ and /z/) but I think many standard US english speakers still would be pronouncing them with more of /s/ than /z/ sound in the final position for these words. It also seems like people aim for /s/ sound but since the final sound in the word was voiced, a slight /z/ (not full-blown) may sneak in, which may give the impression of a slight /z/ mixed with /s/. Still, in these cases, the "Rule" doesn't apply and is more of an aberration than the standard practice.
Questions:
Why is this then stated as a 'rule' when clearly it's not so cut-and-dried?
Can someone explain the basis for this so-called 'rule' when there are so many instances of standard american speech pattern deviating from it?
grammatical-number pronunciation possessives north-american-english accent
asked 3 hours ago
Joe BlackJoe Black
4721618
marked as duplicate by sumelic pronunciation
Users with the pronunciation badge can single-handedly close pronunciation questions as duplicates and reopen them as needed.
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27 mins ago
This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.
General American is rather broad - can you indicate what region(s) you have heard this in?
– Mark Beadles
3 hours ago
I've not noticed any region-specific variations in this within the US. The issue is that it seems to be stated as a pronunciation "rule" in various english textbooks.
– Joe Black
3 hours ago
Are you by chance in the upper midwest? I think most Americans do pronounce the z sound in all of the examples you mentioned. The subject of what constitutes Standard American English is very debatable.
– user344654
3 hours ago
It's stated as a rule because it is observed to be the case in most American accents. So my question is aimed at identifying any particular regionalisms. Do you notice this in any British or Australian accents?
– Mark Beadles
3 hours ago
1
Americans generally do not confuse falls and false. We tell them apart both by the voicing of the final consonant and by the fact that falls has a longer vowel than false (because the final consonant is voiced). So we hear the phoneme /z/, even when some foreigners might hear /s/.
– Peter Shor
1 hour ago
|
show 5 more comments
This question already has an answer here:
Are “whores” and “horse” homophones?
5 answers
The pronunciation of ending “s”
2 answers
Does “fathers” in RP exclude R and unvoice the S?
3 answers
About pronouncing the 's' in plural nouns
2 answers
So, I've seen this rule at several English books about how if a word has a voiced final sound (e.g. r, voiced th, l, m, n..) then added 's' is pronounced more like /z/. If the final sound is voiceless (e.g. t, p, k etc) then it's pronounced like /s/.
(https://tarlespeech.com/rule-for-using-the-s-versus-z-sound-at-the-end-of-verbs-and-nouns/)
But, in practice, I see this rule violated often for several instances, at least in GenAmE (standard/General American Accent). Examples:
Some words ending with L/N sounds: Falls, malls, aliens, holes
(sounds like final s is still /s/ not /z/ in falls, malls, aliens,
wells, holes)
Doesn’t seem to happen in some words ending with ‘m’: E.g. dreams,
problems, times
Doesn't happen for some words ending in ‘r’: E.g. truckers/f**ers
seems to be pronounced with /s/ at the end rather than /z/
I can see some people still using slight /z/ sound (not full blown /z/ but somewhere in the middle of /s/ and /z/) but I think many standard US english speakers still would be pronouncing them with more of /s/ than /z/ sound in the final position for these words. It also seems like people aim for /s/ sound but since the final sound in the word was voiced, a slight /z/ (not full-blown) may sneak in, which may give the impression of a slight /z/ mixed with /s/. Still, in these cases, the "Rule" doesn't apply and is more of an aberration than the standard practice.
Questions:
Why is this then stated as a 'rule' when clearly it's not so cut-and-dried?
Can someone explain the basis for this so-called 'rule' when there are so many instances of standard american speech pattern deviating from it?
grammatical-number pronunciation possessives north-american-english accent
asked 3 hours ago
Joe BlackJoe Black
4721618
This question already has an answer here:
Are “whores” and “horse” homophones?
5 answers
The pronunciation of ending “s”
2 answers
Does “fathers” in RP exclude R and unvoice the S?
3 answers
About pronouncing the 's' in plural nouns
2 answers
So, I've seen this rule at several English books about how if a word has a voiced final sound (e.g. r, voiced th, l, m, n..) then added 's' is pronounced more like /z/. If the final sound is voiceless (e.g. t, p, k etc) then it's pronounced like /s/.
(https://tarlespeech.com/rule-for-using-the-s-versus-z-sound-at-the-end-of-verbs-and-nouns/)
But, in practice, I see this rule violated often for several instances, at least in GenAmE (standard/General American Accent). Examples:
Some words ending with L/N sounds: Falls, malls, aliens, holes
(sounds like final s is still /s/ not /z/ in falls, malls, aliens,
wells, holes)
Doesn’t seem to happen in some words ending with ‘m’: E.g. dreams,
problems, times
Doesn't happen for some words ending in ‘r’: E.g. truckers/f**ers
seems to be pronounced with /s/ at the end rather than /z/
I can see some people still using slight /z/ sound (not full blown /z/ but somewhere in the middle of /s/ and /z/) but I think many standard US english speakers still would be pronouncing them with more of /s/ than /z/ sound in the final position for these words. It also seems like people aim for /s/ sound but since the final sound in the word was voiced, a slight /z/ (not full-blown) may sneak in, which may give the impression of a slight /z/ mixed with /s/. Still, in these cases, the "Rule" doesn't apply and is more of an aberration than the standard practice.
Questions:
Why is this then stated as a 'rule' when clearly it's not so cut-and-dried?
Can someone explain the basis for this so-called 'rule' when there are so many instances of standard american speech pattern deviating from it?
This question already has an answer here:
Are “whores” and “horse” homophones?
5 answers
The pronunciation of ending “s”
2 answers
Does “fathers” in RP exclude R and unvoice the S?
3 answers
About pronouncing the 's' in plural nouns
2 answers
grammatical-number pronunciation possessives north-american-english accent
grammatical-number pronunciation possessives north-american-english accent
asked 3 hours ago
Joe BlackJoe Black
4721618
asked 3 hours ago
Joe BlackJoe Black
4721618
edited 3 hours ago
Joe Black
asked 3 hours ago
Joe BlackJoe Black
4721618
asked 3 hours ago
Joe BlackJoe Black
4721618
asked 3 hours ago
Joe BlackJoe Black
4721618
4721618
marked as duplicate by sumelic pronunciation
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27 mins ago
This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.
marked as duplicate by sumelic pronunciation
Users with the pronunciation badge can single-handedly close pronunciation questions as duplicates and reopen them as needed.
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27 mins ago
This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.
General American is rather broad - can you indicate what region(s) you have heard this in?
– Mark Beadles
3 hours ago
I've not noticed any region-specific variations in this within the US. The issue is that it seems to be stated as a pronunciation "rule" in various english textbooks.
– Joe Black
3 hours ago
Are you by chance in the upper midwest? I think most Americans do pronounce the z sound in all of the examples you mentioned. The subject of what constitutes Standard American English is very debatable.
– user344654
3 hours ago
It's stated as a rule because it is observed to be the case in most American accents. So my question is aimed at identifying any particular regionalisms. Do you notice this in any British or Australian accents?
– Mark Beadles
3 hours ago
1
Americans generally do not confuse falls and false. We tell them apart both by the voicing of the final consonant and by the fact that falls has a longer vowel than false (because the final consonant is voiced). So we hear the phoneme /z/, even when some foreigners might hear /s/.
– Peter Shor
1 hour ago
|
show 5 more comments
General American is rather broad - can you indicate what region(s) you have heard this in?
– Mark Beadles
3 hours ago
I've not noticed any region-specific variations in this within the US. The issue is that it seems to be stated as a pronunciation "rule" in various english textbooks.
– Joe Black
3 hours ago
Are you by chance in the upper midwest? I think most Americans do pronounce the z sound in all of the examples you mentioned. The subject of what constitutes Standard American English is very debatable.
– user344654
3 hours ago
It's stated as a rule because it is observed to be the case in most American accents. So my question is aimed at identifying any particular regionalisms. Do you notice this in any British or Australian accents?
– Mark Beadles
3 hours ago
1
Americans generally do not confuse falls and false. We tell them apart both by the voicing of the final consonant and by the fact that falls has a longer vowel than false (because the final consonant is voiced). So we hear the phoneme /z/, even when some foreigners might hear /s/.
– Peter Shor
1 hour ago
General American is rather broad - can you indicate what region(s) you have heard this in?
– Mark Beadles
3 hours ago
General American is rather broad - can you indicate what region(s) you have heard this in?
– Mark Beadles
3 hours ago
I've not noticed any region-specific variations in this within the US. The issue is that it seems to be stated as a pronunciation "rule" in various english textbooks.
– Joe Black
3 hours ago
I've not noticed any region-specific variations in this within the US. The issue is that it seems to be stated as a pronunciation "rule" in various english textbooks.
– Joe Black
3 hours ago
Are you by chance in the upper midwest? I think most Americans do pronounce the z sound in all of the examples you mentioned. The subject of what constitutes Standard American English is very debatable.
– user344654
3 hours ago
Are you by chance in the upper midwest? I think most Americans do pronounce the z sound in all of the examples you mentioned. The subject of what constitutes Standard American English is very debatable.
– user344654
3 hours ago
It's stated as a rule because it is observed to be the case in most American accents. So my question is aimed at identifying any particular regionalisms. Do you notice this in any British or Australian accents?
– Mark Beadles
3 hours ago
It's stated as a rule because it is observed to be the case in most American accents. So my question is aimed at identifying any particular regionalisms. Do you notice this in any British or Australian accents?
– Mark Beadles
3 hours ago
1
1
Americans generally do not confuse falls and false. We tell them apart both by the voicing of the final consonant and by the fact that falls has a longer vowel than false (because the final consonant is voiced). So we hear the phoneme /z/, even when some foreigners might hear /s/.
– Peter Shor
1 hour ago
Americans generally do not confuse falls and false. We tell them apart both by the voicing of the final consonant and by the fact that falls has a longer vowel than false (because the final consonant is voiced). So we hear the phoneme /z/, even when some foreigners might hear /s/.
– Peter Shor
1 hour ago
|
show 5 more comments
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General American is rather broad - can you indicate what region(s) you have heard this in?
– Mark Beadles
3 hours ago
I've not noticed any region-specific variations in this within the US. The issue is that it seems to be stated as a pronunciation "rule" in various english textbooks.
– Joe Black
3 hours ago
Are you by chance in the upper midwest? I think most Americans do pronounce the z sound in all of the examples you mentioned. The subject of what constitutes Standard American English is very debatable.
– user344654
3 hours ago
It's stated as a rule because it is observed to be the case in most American accents. So my question is aimed at identifying any particular regionalisms. Do you notice this in any British or Australian accents?
– Mark Beadles
3 hours ago
1
Americans generally do not confuse falls and false. We tell them apart both by the voicing of the final consonant and by the fact that falls has a longer vowel than false (because the final consonant is voiced). So we hear the phoneme /z/, even when some foreigners might hear /s/.
– Peter Shor
1 hour ago