Why are there no cargo aircraft with “flying wing” design?
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From that I have seen so far, the "flying wing" design (like the one of B-2 Spirit and Northrop YB-49) has superior performance but also a few notable problems that make it difficult to use for passenger aircraft:
- It is difficult to control, and the YB-49 crashed even when flown by an elite test pilot. However, computer assistance has been implemented for B-2 and I do not think this is a problem any longer.
- There are problems related just to the passenger transport: not enough windows, difficult to evacuate.
- It also cannot be pressurized as easily as a cylinder but for a majority of possible cargo this is probably not a problem. Some cargo may not require pressurization at all and some may only need partial pressurization like in jet fighters.
Hence I understand that there are problems on the way to the flying wing passenger aircraft. However, why there are no cargo aircraft of this kind around?
aircraft-design cargo blended-wing
New contributor
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
From that I have seen so far, the "flying wing" design (like the one of B-2 Spirit and Northrop YB-49) has superior performance but also a few notable problems that make it difficult to use for passenger aircraft:
- It is difficult to control, and the YB-49 crashed even when flown by an elite test pilot. However, computer assistance has been implemented for B-2 and I do not think this is a problem any longer.
- There are problems related just to the passenger transport: not enough windows, difficult to evacuate.
- It also cannot be pressurized as easily as a cylinder but for a majority of possible cargo this is probably not a problem. Some cargo may not require pressurization at all and some may only need partial pressurization like in jet fighters.
Hence I understand that there are problems on the way to the flying wing passenger aircraft. However, why there are no cargo aircraft of this kind around?
aircraft-design cargo blended-wing
New contributor
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
Very related: Why are there so few aircraft that had inhabited wings?
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
From that I have seen so far, the "flying wing" design (like the one of B-2 Spirit and Northrop YB-49) has superior performance but also a few notable problems that make it difficult to use for passenger aircraft:
- It is difficult to control, and the YB-49 crashed even when flown by an elite test pilot. However, computer assistance has been implemented for B-2 and I do not think this is a problem any longer.
- There are problems related just to the passenger transport: not enough windows, difficult to evacuate.
- It also cannot be pressurized as easily as a cylinder but for a majority of possible cargo this is probably not a problem. Some cargo may not require pressurization at all and some may only need partial pressurization like in jet fighters.
Hence I understand that there are problems on the way to the flying wing passenger aircraft. However, why there are no cargo aircraft of this kind around?
aircraft-design cargo blended-wing
New contributor
$endgroup$
From that I have seen so far, the "flying wing" design (like the one of B-2 Spirit and Northrop YB-49) has superior performance but also a few notable problems that make it difficult to use for passenger aircraft:
- It is difficult to control, and the YB-49 crashed even when flown by an elite test pilot. However, computer assistance has been implemented for B-2 and I do not think this is a problem any longer.
- There are problems related just to the passenger transport: not enough windows, difficult to evacuate.
- It also cannot be pressurized as easily as a cylinder but for a majority of possible cargo this is probably not a problem. Some cargo may not require pressurization at all and some may only need partial pressurization like in jet fighters.
Hence I understand that there are problems on the way to the flying wing passenger aircraft. However, why there are no cargo aircraft of this kind around?
aircraft-design cargo blended-wing
aircraft-design cargo blended-wing
New contributor
New contributor
edited yesterday
fooot
54.6k18175329
54.6k18175329
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asked yesterday
h23h23
10115
10115
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New contributor
3
$begingroup$
Very related: Why are there so few aircraft that had inhabited wings?
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
yesterday
add a comment |
3
$begingroup$
Very related: Why are there so few aircraft that had inhabited wings?
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
yesterday
3
3
$begingroup$
Very related: Why are there so few aircraft that had inhabited wings?
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
yesterday
$begingroup$
Very related: Why are there so few aircraft that had inhabited wings?
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
yesterday
add a comment |
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
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Flying wings can be made to have acceptable flying qualities without any artificial assistance. Just look at the Jim Marske glider designs.
The principal downfall of flying wings is that stability in pitch is pretty much achieved the same way as with a conventional tail, with a down force balancing out the center of gravity forward of the fulcrum of neutral point of the lifting forces, but it's all being done over the very short moment arm of the wing chord itself. In other words the "tail" has been moved forward to the trailing edge of the main wing.
There are a lot of issues that result from this, pitch sensitivity and damping issues and all that, but the biggest one from a cargo aircraft's perspective is a very narrow center of gravity range. Not a big deal on a bomber with a concentrated bomb bay load, or a glider that doesn't have to cope with loading variations, but a bigger deal on a freighter. You are forced to spread the load, and the fuselage volume, laterally, creating way more frontal area than necessary (you're in effect turning the fuselage sideways), so you end up cancelling out the drag benefit of doing away with the tail in the first place, and still end up with a "temperamental" configuration.
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3
$begingroup$
Admittedly, without a long fuselage there will not be much length along which the cargo can be distributed. I'd call it a wash.
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
That's what I meant by having to spread the loading laterally. But even within the space envelope you would have just within a flying wing stump fuselage or center section, the available loading range is pretty narrow. Bring your knees to your chest in a FW glider, where the allowable range is couple of inches, and you might find yourself aft of the rear limit.
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– John K
yesterday
3
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most excellent explanation!
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– niels nielsen
23 hours ago
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This explanation is plainly wrong, as stability is not due to this. an aircraft can be perfectly statically stable with the center of lift ahead of the center of gravity. - In fact many aircraft work that way and it's more stable that way. - This is due to the lifting moment, and the way cl-alpha works.
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– paul23
2 hours ago
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Admittedly it's better to use "neutral point" which takes in all of the various forces and moments acting on the aircraft that influence the "net balance point" so to speak, instead of center of lift. There still has to be a net down force acting at the tail, balancing the CG that has to be forward of the neutral point.
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– John K
1 hour ago
|
show 5 more comments
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Cargo aircraft (outside the military) almost always started life as passenger aircraft. The ratio of active large cargo aircraft to passenger aircraft is in the single percentages. Therefore, nobody develops a pure cargo aircraft from scratch.
That does not mean that no one has tried. Especially for cargo, large flying wings have been proposed which store their cargo in containers along the wingspan - hence their name: Spanloaders. Below is an artist impression from the 1970s.
Boeing Model 759-159 distributed load freighter concept from the 1970s (picture source)
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8
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And to the military, soldiers are just another kind of cargo.
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– jamesqf
yesterday
4
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Where would that thing park?
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– Azor Ahai
yesterday
2
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Not at the airport it's flying over, certainly...
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– Roger Lipscombe
yesterday
5
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Perhaps it doesn't park, or even land - just flies endlessly while smaller craft ferry fuel and cargo between it and the ground.
$endgroup$
– Skyler
yesterday
5
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@RogerLipscombe; Actually, if you look closely, you can see two of them on the ground. But I agree, a standard 98 ft runway will be too narrow.
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– Peter Kämpf
18 hours ago
add a comment |
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For a start, with what it costs to design and certificate a new aircraft type, if a transport craft can't be reconfigured to carry either passengers or freight it won't make it off the napkin. The conventional transports we have can be switched from cargo to passenger and back, some in just a few hours. For a non-passenger transport to compete, it would have to be much cheaper (to buy and to operate) than a multi-purpose airframe.
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add a comment |
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In addition to the other answers, a reason for the lack of flying wings in civil aviation in general is that they need to compete in an environment that has grown alongside conventional, fuselage-and-wings aircraft and is ill-suited for flying wings.
This means they need to use the same airports (turning radii, RWY widths), fit into the same parking envelopes (wingspan) and be serviced by the same ground vehicles (bay heights, wing clearances). Because redesigning an entire industry worth of ancillary equipment and infrastructure has been deemed not worth the minor efficiency gains to be had from flying wings.
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2
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and the extremely conservative attitude of the people making purchasing decisions, that makes it very hard to get even things that look or sound a bit different from the established norm from getting adopted (think the Boeing Sonic Cruiser concept, or the Beechcraft 2000, as prime examples).
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– jwenting
20 hours ago
add a comment |
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Flying wings simply don't have much internal space for cargo, so they're a non-starter for cargo planes.
You mention the B-2 which will carry 18 tons of bombs. However, bombs are small and heavy: for example, a US Mark 82 bomb is essentially a 130kg (300lb) metal box filled with 90kg (200lb) of explosives. Most airline cargo isn't packed in thick, heavy metal boxes like that, so turning the B-2's bomb bay into a cargo bay wouldn't create a very useful cargo plane.
Which is good, because the designation C-2 is already taken. *rimshot*
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add a comment |
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It's all about CG range and how much abuse the design can take. Take a look at the C-130 Hercules. It has a huge Hstab to cope with a wide range of CG. Really a bi-plane. So is the Chinook helicopter. Holding the table up with 4 legs (6 with a canard).
So, what do we do to get to a viable flying wing? Sweep back offers improvement in pitch stability as (with washout) you lengthen the aircraft. Control surfaces can be placed at the wing tips. Reflexed camber airfoils also help. How to cope the loss of a longer fuselage/Hstab pitch torque arm? Have the cargo bay set on a roller at CG.
Pull it forward until it tips. Secure, cargo balanced! Fuel tanks can be arranged to drain evenly. Assuming a subsonic design with near neutral static stability, it may even fly without computers.
But the all important shift in Clift with change in AOA or airspeed must be accounted for.
So a small tail, like birds have, may help build a better safety margin for the design, with or without computers. Ditto for lower aspect wings. Interestingly, a bird sweeping its wings back becomes ... a delta. Sweep them back out ... an F-111?
It is possible to reduce tail size in cargo, and passenger planes.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Flying wings can be made to have acceptable flying qualities without any artificial assistance. Just look at the Jim Marske glider designs.
The principal downfall of flying wings is that stability in pitch is pretty much achieved the same way as with a conventional tail, with a down force balancing out the center of gravity forward of the fulcrum of neutral point of the lifting forces, but it's all being done over the very short moment arm of the wing chord itself. In other words the "tail" has been moved forward to the trailing edge of the main wing.
There are a lot of issues that result from this, pitch sensitivity and damping issues and all that, but the biggest one from a cargo aircraft's perspective is a very narrow center of gravity range. Not a big deal on a bomber with a concentrated bomb bay load, or a glider that doesn't have to cope with loading variations, but a bigger deal on a freighter. You are forced to spread the load, and the fuselage volume, laterally, creating way more frontal area than necessary (you're in effect turning the fuselage sideways), so you end up cancelling out the drag benefit of doing away with the tail in the first place, and still end up with a "temperamental" configuration.
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
Admittedly, without a long fuselage there will not be much length along which the cargo can be distributed. I'd call it a wash.
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
That's what I meant by having to spread the loading laterally. But even within the space envelope you would have just within a flying wing stump fuselage or center section, the available loading range is pretty narrow. Bring your knees to your chest in a FW glider, where the allowable range is couple of inches, and you might find yourself aft of the rear limit.
$endgroup$
– John K
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
most excellent explanation!
$endgroup$
– niels nielsen
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
This explanation is plainly wrong, as stability is not due to this. an aircraft can be perfectly statically stable with the center of lift ahead of the center of gravity. - In fact many aircraft work that way and it's more stable that way. - This is due to the lifting moment, and the way cl-alpha works.
$endgroup$
– paul23
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Admittedly it's better to use "neutral point" which takes in all of the various forces and moments acting on the aircraft that influence the "net balance point" so to speak, instead of center of lift. There still has to be a net down force acting at the tail, balancing the CG that has to be forward of the neutral point.
$endgroup$
– John K
1 hour ago
|
show 5 more comments
$begingroup$
Flying wings can be made to have acceptable flying qualities without any artificial assistance. Just look at the Jim Marske glider designs.
The principal downfall of flying wings is that stability in pitch is pretty much achieved the same way as with a conventional tail, with a down force balancing out the center of gravity forward of the fulcrum of neutral point of the lifting forces, but it's all being done over the very short moment arm of the wing chord itself. In other words the "tail" has been moved forward to the trailing edge of the main wing.
There are a lot of issues that result from this, pitch sensitivity and damping issues and all that, but the biggest one from a cargo aircraft's perspective is a very narrow center of gravity range. Not a big deal on a bomber with a concentrated bomb bay load, or a glider that doesn't have to cope with loading variations, but a bigger deal on a freighter. You are forced to spread the load, and the fuselage volume, laterally, creating way more frontal area than necessary (you're in effect turning the fuselage sideways), so you end up cancelling out the drag benefit of doing away with the tail in the first place, and still end up with a "temperamental" configuration.
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
Admittedly, without a long fuselage there will not be much length along which the cargo can be distributed. I'd call it a wash.
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
That's what I meant by having to spread the loading laterally. But even within the space envelope you would have just within a flying wing stump fuselage or center section, the available loading range is pretty narrow. Bring your knees to your chest in a FW glider, where the allowable range is couple of inches, and you might find yourself aft of the rear limit.
$endgroup$
– John K
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
most excellent explanation!
$endgroup$
– niels nielsen
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
This explanation is plainly wrong, as stability is not due to this. an aircraft can be perfectly statically stable with the center of lift ahead of the center of gravity. - In fact many aircraft work that way and it's more stable that way. - This is due to the lifting moment, and the way cl-alpha works.
$endgroup$
– paul23
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Admittedly it's better to use "neutral point" which takes in all of the various forces and moments acting on the aircraft that influence the "net balance point" so to speak, instead of center of lift. There still has to be a net down force acting at the tail, balancing the CG that has to be forward of the neutral point.
$endgroup$
– John K
1 hour ago
|
show 5 more comments
$begingroup$
Flying wings can be made to have acceptable flying qualities without any artificial assistance. Just look at the Jim Marske glider designs.
The principal downfall of flying wings is that stability in pitch is pretty much achieved the same way as with a conventional tail, with a down force balancing out the center of gravity forward of the fulcrum of neutral point of the lifting forces, but it's all being done over the very short moment arm of the wing chord itself. In other words the "tail" has been moved forward to the trailing edge of the main wing.
There are a lot of issues that result from this, pitch sensitivity and damping issues and all that, but the biggest one from a cargo aircraft's perspective is a very narrow center of gravity range. Not a big deal on a bomber with a concentrated bomb bay load, or a glider that doesn't have to cope with loading variations, but a bigger deal on a freighter. You are forced to spread the load, and the fuselage volume, laterally, creating way more frontal area than necessary (you're in effect turning the fuselage sideways), so you end up cancelling out the drag benefit of doing away with the tail in the first place, and still end up with a "temperamental" configuration.
$endgroup$
Flying wings can be made to have acceptable flying qualities without any artificial assistance. Just look at the Jim Marske glider designs.
The principal downfall of flying wings is that stability in pitch is pretty much achieved the same way as with a conventional tail, with a down force balancing out the center of gravity forward of the fulcrum of neutral point of the lifting forces, but it's all being done over the very short moment arm of the wing chord itself. In other words the "tail" has been moved forward to the trailing edge of the main wing.
There are a lot of issues that result from this, pitch sensitivity and damping issues and all that, but the biggest one from a cargo aircraft's perspective is a very narrow center of gravity range. Not a big deal on a bomber with a concentrated bomb bay load, or a glider that doesn't have to cope with loading variations, but a bigger deal on a freighter. You are forced to spread the load, and the fuselage volume, laterally, creating way more frontal area than necessary (you're in effect turning the fuselage sideways), so you end up cancelling out the drag benefit of doing away with the tail in the first place, and still end up with a "temperamental" configuration.
edited 1 hour ago
answered yesterday
John KJohn K
25.6k13878
25.6k13878
3
$begingroup$
Admittedly, without a long fuselage there will not be much length along which the cargo can be distributed. I'd call it a wash.
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
That's what I meant by having to spread the loading laterally. But even within the space envelope you would have just within a flying wing stump fuselage or center section, the available loading range is pretty narrow. Bring your knees to your chest in a FW glider, where the allowable range is couple of inches, and you might find yourself aft of the rear limit.
$endgroup$
– John K
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
most excellent explanation!
$endgroup$
– niels nielsen
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
This explanation is plainly wrong, as stability is not due to this. an aircraft can be perfectly statically stable with the center of lift ahead of the center of gravity. - In fact many aircraft work that way and it's more stable that way. - This is due to the lifting moment, and the way cl-alpha works.
$endgroup$
– paul23
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Admittedly it's better to use "neutral point" which takes in all of the various forces and moments acting on the aircraft that influence the "net balance point" so to speak, instead of center of lift. There still has to be a net down force acting at the tail, balancing the CG that has to be forward of the neutral point.
$endgroup$
– John K
1 hour ago
|
show 5 more comments
3
$begingroup$
Admittedly, without a long fuselage there will not be much length along which the cargo can be distributed. I'd call it a wash.
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
That's what I meant by having to spread the loading laterally. But even within the space envelope you would have just within a flying wing stump fuselage or center section, the available loading range is pretty narrow. Bring your knees to your chest in a FW glider, where the allowable range is couple of inches, and you might find yourself aft of the rear limit.
$endgroup$
– John K
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
most excellent explanation!
$endgroup$
– niels nielsen
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
This explanation is plainly wrong, as stability is not due to this. an aircraft can be perfectly statically stable with the center of lift ahead of the center of gravity. - In fact many aircraft work that way and it's more stable that way. - This is due to the lifting moment, and the way cl-alpha works.
$endgroup$
– paul23
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Admittedly it's better to use "neutral point" which takes in all of the various forces and moments acting on the aircraft that influence the "net balance point" so to speak, instead of center of lift. There still has to be a net down force acting at the tail, balancing the CG that has to be forward of the neutral point.
$endgroup$
– John K
1 hour ago
3
3
$begingroup$
Admittedly, without a long fuselage there will not be much length along which the cargo can be distributed. I'd call it a wash.
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
yesterday
$begingroup$
Admittedly, without a long fuselage there will not be much length along which the cargo can be distributed. I'd call it a wash.
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
yesterday
3
3
$begingroup$
That's what I meant by having to spread the loading laterally. But even within the space envelope you would have just within a flying wing stump fuselage or center section, the available loading range is pretty narrow. Bring your knees to your chest in a FW glider, where the allowable range is couple of inches, and you might find yourself aft of the rear limit.
$endgroup$
– John K
yesterday
$begingroup$
That's what I meant by having to spread the loading laterally. But even within the space envelope you would have just within a flying wing stump fuselage or center section, the available loading range is pretty narrow. Bring your knees to your chest in a FW glider, where the allowable range is couple of inches, and you might find yourself aft of the rear limit.
$endgroup$
– John K
yesterday
3
3
$begingroup$
most excellent explanation!
$endgroup$
– niels nielsen
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
most excellent explanation!
$endgroup$
– niels nielsen
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
This explanation is plainly wrong, as stability is not due to this. an aircraft can be perfectly statically stable with the center of lift ahead of the center of gravity. - In fact many aircraft work that way and it's more stable that way. - This is due to the lifting moment, and the way cl-alpha works.
$endgroup$
– paul23
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
This explanation is plainly wrong, as stability is not due to this. an aircraft can be perfectly statically stable with the center of lift ahead of the center of gravity. - In fact many aircraft work that way and it's more stable that way. - This is due to the lifting moment, and the way cl-alpha works.
$endgroup$
– paul23
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Admittedly it's better to use "neutral point" which takes in all of the various forces and moments acting on the aircraft that influence the "net balance point" so to speak, instead of center of lift. There still has to be a net down force acting at the tail, balancing the CG that has to be forward of the neutral point.
$endgroup$
– John K
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Admittedly it's better to use "neutral point" which takes in all of the various forces and moments acting on the aircraft that influence the "net balance point" so to speak, instead of center of lift. There still has to be a net down force acting at the tail, balancing the CG that has to be forward of the neutral point.
$endgroup$
– John K
1 hour ago
|
show 5 more comments
$begingroup$
Cargo aircraft (outside the military) almost always started life as passenger aircraft. The ratio of active large cargo aircraft to passenger aircraft is in the single percentages. Therefore, nobody develops a pure cargo aircraft from scratch.
That does not mean that no one has tried. Especially for cargo, large flying wings have been proposed which store their cargo in containers along the wingspan - hence their name: Spanloaders. Below is an artist impression from the 1970s.
Boeing Model 759-159 distributed load freighter concept from the 1970s (picture source)
$endgroup$
8
$begingroup$
And to the military, soldiers are just another kind of cargo.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
yesterday
4
$begingroup$
Where would that thing park?
$endgroup$
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
Not at the airport it's flying over, certainly...
$endgroup$
– Roger Lipscombe
yesterday
5
$begingroup$
Perhaps it doesn't park, or even land - just flies endlessly while smaller craft ferry fuel and cargo between it and the ground.
$endgroup$
– Skyler
yesterday
5
$begingroup$
@RogerLipscombe; Actually, if you look closely, you can see two of them on the ground. But I agree, a standard 98 ft runway will be too narrow.
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
18 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Cargo aircraft (outside the military) almost always started life as passenger aircraft. The ratio of active large cargo aircraft to passenger aircraft is in the single percentages. Therefore, nobody develops a pure cargo aircraft from scratch.
That does not mean that no one has tried. Especially for cargo, large flying wings have been proposed which store their cargo in containers along the wingspan - hence their name: Spanloaders. Below is an artist impression from the 1970s.
Boeing Model 759-159 distributed load freighter concept from the 1970s (picture source)
$endgroup$
8
$begingroup$
And to the military, soldiers are just another kind of cargo.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
yesterday
4
$begingroup$
Where would that thing park?
$endgroup$
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
Not at the airport it's flying over, certainly...
$endgroup$
– Roger Lipscombe
yesterday
5
$begingroup$
Perhaps it doesn't park, or even land - just flies endlessly while smaller craft ferry fuel and cargo between it and the ground.
$endgroup$
– Skyler
yesterday
5
$begingroup$
@RogerLipscombe; Actually, if you look closely, you can see two of them on the ground. But I agree, a standard 98 ft runway will be too narrow.
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
18 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Cargo aircraft (outside the military) almost always started life as passenger aircraft. The ratio of active large cargo aircraft to passenger aircraft is in the single percentages. Therefore, nobody develops a pure cargo aircraft from scratch.
That does not mean that no one has tried. Especially for cargo, large flying wings have been proposed which store their cargo in containers along the wingspan - hence their name: Spanloaders. Below is an artist impression from the 1970s.
Boeing Model 759-159 distributed load freighter concept from the 1970s (picture source)
$endgroup$
Cargo aircraft (outside the military) almost always started life as passenger aircraft. The ratio of active large cargo aircraft to passenger aircraft is in the single percentages. Therefore, nobody develops a pure cargo aircraft from scratch.
That does not mean that no one has tried. Especially for cargo, large flying wings have been proposed which store their cargo in containers along the wingspan - hence their name: Spanloaders. Below is an artist impression from the 1970s.
Boeing Model 759-159 distributed load freighter concept from the 1970s (picture source)
edited yesterday
Community♦
1
1
answered yesterday
Peter KämpfPeter Kämpf
162k12412658
162k12412658
8
$begingroup$
And to the military, soldiers are just another kind of cargo.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
yesterday
4
$begingroup$
Where would that thing park?
$endgroup$
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
Not at the airport it's flying over, certainly...
$endgroup$
– Roger Lipscombe
yesterday
5
$begingroup$
Perhaps it doesn't park, or even land - just flies endlessly while smaller craft ferry fuel and cargo between it and the ground.
$endgroup$
– Skyler
yesterday
5
$begingroup$
@RogerLipscombe; Actually, if you look closely, you can see two of them on the ground. But I agree, a standard 98 ft runway will be too narrow.
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
18 hours ago
add a comment |
8
$begingroup$
And to the military, soldiers are just another kind of cargo.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
yesterday
4
$begingroup$
Where would that thing park?
$endgroup$
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
Not at the airport it's flying over, certainly...
$endgroup$
– Roger Lipscombe
yesterday
5
$begingroup$
Perhaps it doesn't park, or even land - just flies endlessly while smaller craft ferry fuel and cargo between it and the ground.
$endgroup$
– Skyler
yesterday
5
$begingroup$
@RogerLipscombe; Actually, if you look closely, you can see two of them on the ground. But I agree, a standard 98 ft runway will be too narrow.
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
18 hours ago
8
8
$begingroup$
And to the military, soldiers are just another kind of cargo.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
yesterday
$begingroup$
And to the military, soldiers are just another kind of cargo.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
yesterday
4
4
$begingroup$
Where would that thing park?
$endgroup$
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
$begingroup$
Where would that thing park?
$endgroup$
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
2
2
$begingroup$
Not at the airport it's flying over, certainly...
$endgroup$
– Roger Lipscombe
yesterday
$begingroup$
Not at the airport it's flying over, certainly...
$endgroup$
– Roger Lipscombe
yesterday
5
5
$begingroup$
Perhaps it doesn't park, or even land - just flies endlessly while smaller craft ferry fuel and cargo between it and the ground.
$endgroup$
– Skyler
yesterday
$begingroup$
Perhaps it doesn't park, or even land - just flies endlessly while smaller craft ferry fuel and cargo between it and the ground.
$endgroup$
– Skyler
yesterday
5
5
$begingroup$
@RogerLipscombe; Actually, if you look closely, you can see two of them on the ground. But I agree, a standard 98 ft runway will be too narrow.
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
18 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RogerLipscombe; Actually, if you look closely, you can see two of them on the ground. But I agree, a standard 98 ft runway will be too narrow.
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
18 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
For a start, with what it costs to design and certificate a new aircraft type, if a transport craft can't be reconfigured to carry either passengers or freight it won't make it off the napkin. The conventional transports we have can be switched from cargo to passenger and back, some in just a few hours. For a non-passenger transport to compete, it would have to be much cheaper (to buy and to operate) than a multi-purpose airframe.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
For a start, with what it costs to design and certificate a new aircraft type, if a transport craft can't be reconfigured to carry either passengers or freight it won't make it off the napkin. The conventional transports we have can be switched from cargo to passenger and back, some in just a few hours. For a non-passenger transport to compete, it would have to be much cheaper (to buy and to operate) than a multi-purpose airframe.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
For a start, with what it costs to design and certificate a new aircraft type, if a transport craft can't be reconfigured to carry either passengers or freight it won't make it off the napkin. The conventional transports we have can be switched from cargo to passenger and back, some in just a few hours. For a non-passenger transport to compete, it would have to be much cheaper (to buy and to operate) than a multi-purpose airframe.
$endgroup$
For a start, with what it costs to design and certificate a new aircraft type, if a transport craft can't be reconfigured to carry either passengers or freight it won't make it off the napkin. The conventional transports we have can be switched from cargo to passenger and back, some in just a few hours. For a non-passenger transport to compete, it would have to be much cheaper (to buy and to operate) than a multi-purpose airframe.
answered yesterday
Zeiss IkonZeiss Ikon
3,542418
3,542418
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In addition to the other answers, a reason for the lack of flying wings in civil aviation in general is that they need to compete in an environment that has grown alongside conventional, fuselage-and-wings aircraft and is ill-suited for flying wings.
This means they need to use the same airports (turning radii, RWY widths), fit into the same parking envelopes (wingspan) and be serviced by the same ground vehicles (bay heights, wing clearances). Because redesigning an entire industry worth of ancillary equipment and infrastructure has been deemed not worth the minor efficiency gains to be had from flying wings.
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
and the extremely conservative attitude of the people making purchasing decisions, that makes it very hard to get even things that look or sound a bit different from the established norm from getting adopted (think the Boeing Sonic Cruiser concept, or the Beechcraft 2000, as prime examples).
$endgroup$
– jwenting
20 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In addition to the other answers, a reason for the lack of flying wings in civil aviation in general is that they need to compete in an environment that has grown alongside conventional, fuselage-and-wings aircraft and is ill-suited for flying wings.
This means they need to use the same airports (turning radii, RWY widths), fit into the same parking envelopes (wingspan) and be serviced by the same ground vehicles (bay heights, wing clearances). Because redesigning an entire industry worth of ancillary equipment and infrastructure has been deemed not worth the minor efficiency gains to be had from flying wings.
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
and the extremely conservative attitude of the people making purchasing decisions, that makes it very hard to get even things that look or sound a bit different from the established norm from getting adopted (think the Boeing Sonic Cruiser concept, or the Beechcraft 2000, as prime examples).
$endgroup$
– jwenting
20 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In addition to the other answers, a reason for the lack of flying wings in civil aviation in general is that they need to compete in an environment that has grown alongside conventional, fuselage-and-wings aircraft and is ill-suited for flying wings.
This means they need to use the same airports (turning radii, RWY widths), fit into the same parking envelopes (wingspan) and be serviced by the same ground vehicles (bay heights, wing clearances). Because redesigning an entire industry worth of ancillary equipment and infrastructure has been deemed not worth the minor efficiency gains to be had from flying wings.
$endgroup$
In addition to the other answers, a reason for the lack of flying wings in civil aviation in general is that they need to compete in an environment that has grown alongside conventional, fuselage-and-wings aircraft and is ill-suited for flying wings.
This means they need to use the same airports (turning radii, RWY widths), fit into the same parking envelopes (wingspan) and be serviced by the same ground vehicles (bay heights, wing clearances). Because redesigning an entire industry worth of ancillary equipment and infrastructure has been deemed not worth the minor efficiency gains to be had from flying wings.
answered yesterday
AEhereAEhere
1,555519
1,555519
2
$begingroup$
and the extremely conservative attitude of the people making purchasing decisions, that makes it very hard to get even things that look or sound a bit different from the established norm from getting adopted (think the Boeing Sonic Cruiser concept, or the Beechcraft 2000, as prime examples).
$endgroup$
– jwenting
20 hours ago
add a comment |
2
$begingroup$
and the extremely conservative attitude of the people making purchasing decisions, that makes it very hard to get even things that look or sound a bit different from the established norm from getting adopted (think the Boeing Sonic Cruiser concept, or the Beechcraft 2000, as prime examples).
$endgroup$
– jwenting
20 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
and the extremely conservative attitude of the people making purchasing decisions, that makes it very hard to get even things that look or sound a bit different from the established norm from getting adopted (think the Boeing Sonic Cruiser concept, or the Beechcraft 2000, as prime examples).
$endgroup$
– jwenting
20 hours ago
$begingroup$
and the extremely conservative attitude of the people making purchasing decisions, that makes it very hard to get even things that look or sound a bit different from the established norm from getting adopted (think the Boeing Sonic Cruiser concept, or the Beechcraft 2000, as prime examples).
$endgroup$
– jwenting
20 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Flying wings simply don't have much internal space for cargo, so they're a non-starter for cargo planes.
You mention the B-2 which will carry 18 tons of bombs. However, bombs are small and heavy: for example, a US Mark 82 bomb is essentially a 130kg (300lb) metal box filled with 90kg (200lb) of explosives. Most airline cargo isn't packed in thick, heavy metal boxes like that, so turning the B-2's bomb bay into a cargo bay wouldn't create a very useful cargo plane.
Which is good, because the designation C-2 is already taken. *rimshot*
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Flying wings simply don't have much internal space for cargo, so they're a non-starter for cargo planes.
You mention the B-2 which will carry 18 tons of bombs. However, bombs are small and heavy: for example, a US Mark 82 bomb is essentially a 130kg (300lb) metal box filled with 90kg (200lb) of explosives. Most airline cargo isn't packed in thick, heavy metal boxes like that, so turning the B-2's bomb bay into a cargo bay wouldn't create a very useful cargo plane.
Which is good, because the designation C-2 is already taken. *rimshot*
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Flying wings simply don't have much internal space for cargo, so they're a non-starter for cargo planes.
You mention the B-2 which will carry 18 tons of bombs. However, bombs are small and heavy: for example, a US Mark 82 bomb is essentially a 130kg (300lb) metal box filled with 90kg (200lb) of explosives. Most airline cargo isn't packed in thick, heavy metal boxes like that, so turning the B-2's bomb bay into a cargo bay wouldn't create a very useful cargo plane.
Which is good, because the designation C-2 is already taken. *rimshot*
$endgroup$
Flying wings simply don't have much internal space for cargo, so they're a non-starter for cargo planes.
You mention the B-2 which will carry 18 tons of bombs. However, bombs are small and heavy: for example, a US Mark 82 bomb is essentially a 130kg (300lb) metal box filled with 90kg (200lb) of explosives. Most airline cargo isn't packed in thick, heavy metal boxes like that, so turning the B-2's bomb bay into a cargo bay wouldn't create a very useful cargo plane.
Which is good, because the designation C-2 is already taken. *rimshot*
answered 11 hours ago
David RicherbyDavid Richerby
10.4k33679
10.4k33679
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It's all about CG range and how much abuse the design can take. Take a look at the C-130 Hercules. It has a huge Hstab to cope with a wide range of CG. Really a bi-plane. So is the Chinook helicopter. Holding the table up with 4 legs (6 with a canard).
So, what do we do to get to a viable flying wing? Sweep back offers improvement in pitch stability as (with washout) you lengthen the aircraft. Control surfaces can be placed at the wing tips. Reflexed camber airfoils also help. How to cope the loss of a longer fuselage/Hstab pitch torque arm? Have the cargo bay set on a roller at CG.
Pull it forward until it tips. Secure, cargo balanced! Fuel tanks can be arranged to drain evenly. Assuming a subsonic design with near neutral static stability, it may even fly without computers.
But the all important shift in Clift with change in AOA or airspeed must be accounted for.
So a small tail, like birds have, may help build a better safety margin for the design, with or without computers. Ditto for lower aspect wings. Interestingly, a bird sweeping its wings back becomes ... a delta. Sweep them back out ... an F-111?
It is possible to reduce tail size in cargo, and passenger planes.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It's all about CG range and how much abuse the design can take. Take a look at the C-130 Hercules. It has a huge Hstab to cope with a wide range of CG. Really a bi-plane. So is the Chinook helicopter. Holding the table up with 4 legs (6 with a canard).
So, what do we do to get to a viable flying wing? Sweep back offers improvement in pitch stability as (with washout) you lengthen the aircraft. Control surfaces can be placed at the wing tips. Reflexed camber airfoils also help. How to cope the loss of a longer fuselage/Hstab pitch torque arm? Have the cargo bay set on a roller at CG.
Pull it forward until it tips. Secure, cargo balanced! Fuel tanks can be arranged to drain evenly. Assuming a subsonic design with near neutral static stability, it may even fly without computers.
But the all important shift in Clift with change in AOA or airspeed must be accounted for.
So a small tail, like birds have, may help build a better safety margin for the design, with or without computers. Ditto for lower aspect wings. Interestingly, a bird sweeping its wings back becomes ... a delta. Sweep them back out ... an F-111?
It is possible to reduce tail size in cargo, and passenger planes.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It's all about CG range and how much abuse the design can take. Take a look at the C-130 Hercules. It has a huge Hstab to cope with a wide range of CG. Really a bi-plane. So is the Chinook helicopter. Holding the table up with 4 legs (6 with a canard).
So, what do we do to get to a viable flying wing? Sweep back offers improvement in pitch stability as (with washout) you lengthen the aircraft. Control surfaces can be placed at the wing tips. Reflexed camber airfoils also help. How to cope the loss of a longer fuselage/Hstab pitch torque arm? Have the cargo bay set on a roller at CG.
Pull it forward until it tips. Secure, cargo balanced! Fuel tanks can be arranged to drain evenly. Assuming a subsonic design with near neutral static stability, it may even fly without computers.
But the all important shift in Clift with change in AOA or airspeed must be accounted for.
So a small tail, like birds have, may help build a better safety margin for the design, with or without computers. Ditto for lower aspect wings. Interestingly, a bird sweeping its wings back becomes ... a delta. Sweep them back out ... an F-111?
It is possible to reduce tail size in cargo, and passenger planes.
$endgroup$
It's all about CG range and how much abuse the design can take. Take a look at the C-130 Hercules. It has a huge Hstab to cope with a wide range of CG. Really a bi-plane. So is the Chinook helicopter. Holding the table up with 4 legs (6 with a canard).
So, what do we do to get to a viable flying wing? Sweep back offers improvement in pitch stability as (with washout) you lengthen the aircraft. Control surfaces can be placed at the wing tips. Reflexed camber airfoils also help. How to cope the loss of a longer fuselage/Hstab pitch torque arm? Have the cargo bay set on a roller at CG.
Pull it forward until it tips. Secure, cargo balanced! Fuel tanks can be arranged to drain evenly. Assuming a subsonic design with near neutral static stability, it may even fly without computers.
But the all important shift in Clift with change in AOA or airspeed must be accounted for.
So a small tail, like birds have, may help build a better safety margin for the design, with or without computers. Ditto for lower aspect wings. Interestingly, a bird sweeping its wings back becomes ... a delta. Sweep them back out ... an F-111?
It is possible to reduce tail size in cargo, and passenger planes.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Robert DiGiovanniRobert DiGiovanni
2,8891316
2,8891316
add a comment |
add a comment |
h23 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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3
$begingroup$
Very related: Why are there so few aircraft that had inhabited wings?
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
yesterday