Why are there no cargo aircraft with “flying wing” design?












19












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From that I have seen so far, the "flying wing" design (like the one of B-2 Spirit and Northrop YB-49) has superior performance but also a few notable problems that make it difficult to use for passenger aircraft:




  • It is difficult to control, and the YB-49 crashed even when flown by an elite test pilot. However, computer assistance has been implemented for B-2 and I do not think this is a problem any longer.

  • There are problems related just to the passenger transport: not enough windows, difficult to evacuate.

  • It also cannot be pressurized as easily as a cylinder but for a majority of possible cargo this is probably not a problem. Some cargo may not require pressurization at all and some may only need partial pressurization like in jet fighters.


Hence I understand that there are problems on the way to the flying wing passenger aircraft. However, why there are no cargo aircraft of this kind around?










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  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Very related: Why are there so few aircraft that had inhabited wings?
    $endgroup$
    – Peter Kämpf
    yesterday
















19












$begingroup$


From that I have seen so far, the "flying wing" design (like the one of B-2 Spirit and Northrop YB-49) has superior performance but also a few notable problems that make it difficult to use for passenger aircraft:




  • It is difficult to control, and the YB-49 crashed even when flown by an elite test pilot. However, computer assistance has been implemented for B-2 and I do not think this is a problem any longer.

  • There are problems related just to the passenger transport: not enough windows, difficult to evacuate.

  • It also cannot be pressurized as easily as a cylinder but for a majority of possible cargo this is probably not a problem. Some cargo may not require pressurization at all and some may only need partial pressurization like in jet fighters.


Hence I understand that there are problems on the way to the flying wing passenger aircraft. However, why there are no cargo aircraft of this kind around?










share|improve this question









New contributor




h23 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Very related: Why are there so few aircraft that had inhabited wings?
    $endgroup$
    – Peter Kämpf
    yesterday














19












19








19


1



$begingroup$


From that I have seen so far, the "flying wing" design (like the one of B-2 Spirit and Northrop YB-49) has superior performance but also a few notable problems that make it difficult to use for passenger aircraft:




  • It is difficult to control, and the YB-49 crashed even when flown by an elite test pilot. However, computer assistance has been implemented for B-2 and I do not think this is a problem any longer.

  • There are problems related just to the passenger transport: not enough windows, difficult to evacuate.

  • It also cannot be pressurized as easily as a cylinder but for a majority of possible cargo this is probably not a problem. Some cargo may not require pressurization at all and some may only need partial pressurization like in jet fighters.


Hence I understand that there are problems on the way to the flying wing passenger aircraft. However, why there are no cargo aircraft of this kind around?










share|improve this question









New contributor




h23 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$




From that I have seen so far, the "flying wing" design (like the one of B-2 Spirit and Northrop YB-49) has superior performance but also a few notable problems that make it difficult to use for passenger aircraft:




  • It is difficult to control, and the YB-49 crashed even when flown by an elite test pilot. However, computer assistance has been implemented for B-2 and I do not think this is a problem any longer.

  • There are problems related just to the passenger transport: not enough windows, difficult to evacuate.

  • It also cannot be pressurized as easily as a cylinder but for a majority of possible cargo this is probably not a problem. Some cargo may not require pressurization at all and some may only need partial pressurization like in jet fighters.


Hence I understand that there are problems on the way to the flying wing passenger aircraft. However, why there are no cargo aircraft of this kind around?







aircraft-design cargo blended-wing






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edited yesterday









fooot

54.6k18175329




54.6k18175329






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asked yesterday









h23h23

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  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Very related: Why are there so few aircraft that had inhabited wings?
    $endgroup$
    – Peter Kämpf
    yesterday














  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Very related: Why are there so few aircraft that had inhabited wings?
    $endgroup$
    – Peter Kämpf
    yesterday








3




3




$begingroup$
Very related: Why are there so few aircraft that had inhabited wings?
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
yesterday




$begingroup$
Very related: Why are there so few aircraft that had inhabited wings?
$endgroup$
– Peter Kämpf
yesterday










6 Answers
6






active

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Flying wings can be made to have acceptable flying qualities without any artificial assistance. Just look at the Jim Marske glider designs.



The principal downfall of flying wings is that stability in pitch is pretty much achieved the same way as with a conventional tail, with a down force balancing out the center of gravity forward of the fulcrum of neutral point of the lifting forces, but it's all being done over the very short moment arm of the wing chord itself. In other words the "tail" has been moved forward to the trailing edge of the main wing.



There are a lot of issues that result from this, pitch sensitivity and damping issues and all that, but the biggest one from a cargo aircraft's perspective is a very narrow center of gravity range. Not a big deal on a bomber with a concentrated bomb bay load, or a glider that doesn't have to cope with loading variations, but a bigger deal on a freighter. You are forced to spread the load, and the fuselage volume, laterally, creating way more frontal area than necessary (you're in effect turning the fuselage sideways), so you end up cancelling out the drag benefit of doing away with the tail in the first place, and still end up with a "temperamental" configuration.



enter image description here






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Admittedly, without a long fuselage there will not be much length along which the cargo can be distributed. I'd call it a wash.
    $endgroup$
    – Peter Kämpf
    yesterday






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    That's what I meant by having to spread the loading laterally. But even within the space envelope you would have just within a flying wing stump fuselage or center section, the available loading range is pretty narrow. Bring your knees to your chest in a FW glider, where the allowable range is couple of inches, and you might find yourself aft of the rear limit.
    $endgroup$
    – John K
    yesterday






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    most excellent explanation!
    $endgroup$
    – niels nielsen
    23 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    This explanation is plainly wrong, as stability is not due to this. an aircraft can be perfectly statically stable with the center of lift ahead of the center of gravity. - In fact many aircraft work that way and it's more stable that way. - This is due to the lifting moment, and the way cl-alpha works.
    $endgroup$
    – paul23
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Admittedly it's better to use "neutral point" which takes in all of the various forces and moments acting on the aircraft that influence the "net balance point" so to speak, instead of center of lift. There still has to be a net down force acting at the tail, balancing the CG that has to be forward of the neutral point.
    $endgroup$
    – John K
    1 hour ago



















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Cargo aircraft (outside the military) almost always started life as passenger aircraft. The ratio of active large cargo aircraft to passenger aircraft is in the single percentages. Therefore, nobody develops a pure cargo aircraft from scratch.



That does not mean that no one has tried. Especially for cargo, large flying wings have been proposed which store their cargo in containers along the wingspan - hence their name: Spanloaders. Below is an artist impression from the 1970s.



Boeing Model 759-159 distributed load freighter concept from the 1970s



Boeing Model 759-159 distributed load freighter concept from the 1970s (picture source)






share|improve this answer











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  • 8




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    And to the military, soldiers are just another kind of cargo.
    $endgroup$
    – jamesqf
    yesterday






  • 4




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    Where would that thing park?
    $endgroup$
    – Azor Ahai
    yesterday






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    Not at the airport it's flying over, certainly...
    $endgroup$
    – Roger Lipscombe
    yesterday






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    Perhaps it doesn't park, or even land - just flies endlessly while smaller craft ferry fuel and cargo between it and the ground.
    $endgroup$
    – Skyler
    yesterday






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @RogerLipscombe; Actually, if you look closely, you can see two of them on the ground. But I agree, a standard 98 ft runway will be too narrow.
    $endgroup$
    – Peter Kämpf
    18 hours ago



















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For a start, with what it costs to design and certificate a new aircraft type, if a transport craft can't be reconfigured to carry either passengers or freight it won't make it off the napkin. The conventional transports we have can be switched from cargo to passenger and back, some in just a few hours. For a non-passenger transport to compete, it would have to be much cheaper (to buy and to operate) than a multi-purpose airframe.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$





















    6












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    In addition to the other answers, a reason for the lack of flying wings in civil aviation in general is that they need to compete in an environment that has grown alongside conventional, fuselage-and-wings aircraft and is ill-suited for flying wings.



    This means they need to use the same airports (turning radii, RWY widths), fit into the same parking envelopes (wingspan) and be serviced by the same ground vehicles (bay heights, wing clearances). Because redesigning an entire industry worth of ancillary equipment and infrastructure has been deemed not worth the minor efficiency gains to be had from flying wings.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$









    • 2




      $begingroup$
      and the extremely conservative attitude of the people making purchasing decisions, that makes it very hard to get even things that look or sound a bit different from the established norm from getting adopted (think the Boeing Sonic Cruiser concept, or the Beechcraft 2000, as prime examples).
      $endgroup$
      – jwenting
      20 hours ago



















    3












    $begingroup$

    Flying wings simply don't have much internal space for cargo, so they're a non-starter for cargo planes.



    You mention the B-2 which will carry 18 tons of bombs. However, bombs are small and heavy: for example, a US Mark 82 bomb is essentially a 130kg (300lb) metal box filled with 90kg (200lb) of explosives. Most airline cargo isn't packed in thick, heavy metal boxes like that, so turning the B-2's bomb bay into a cargo bay wouldn't create a very useful cargo plane.



    Which is good, because the designation C-2 is already taken. *rimshot*






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$





















      2












      $begingroup$

      It's all about CG range and how much abuse the design can take. Take a look at the C-130 Hercules. It has a huge Hstab to cope with a wide range of CG. Really a bi-plane. So is the Chinook helicopter. Holding the table up with 4 legs (6 with a canard).



      So, what do we do to get to a viable flying wing? Sweep back offers improvement in pitch stability as (with washout) you lengthen the aircraft. Control surfaces can be placed at the wing tips. Reflexed camber airfoils also help. How to cope the loss of a longer fuselage/Hstab pitch torque arm? Have the cargo bay set on a roller at CG.
      Pull it forward until it tips. Secure, cargo balanced! Fuel tanks can be arranged to drain evenly. Assuming a subsonic design with near neutral static stability, it may even fly without computers.



      But the all important shift in Clift with change in AOA or airspeed must be accounted for.
      So a small tail, like birds have, may help build a better safety margin for the design, with or without computers. Ditto for lower aspect wings. Interestingly, a bird sweeping its wings back becomes ... a delta. Sweep them back out ... an F-111?



      It is possible to reduce tail size in cargo, and passenger planes.






      share|improve this answer











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        6 Answers
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        6 Answers
        6






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        28












        $begingroup$

        Flying wings can be made to have acceptable flying qualities without any artificial assistance. Just look at the Jim Marske glider designs.



        The principal downfall of flying wings is that stability in pitch is pretty much achieved the same way as with a conventional tail, with a down force balancing out the center of gravity forward of the fulcrum of neutral point of the lifting forces, but it's all being done over the very short moment arm of the wing chord itself. In other words the "tail" has been moved forward to the trailing edge of the main wing.



        There are a lot of issues that result from this, pitch sensitivity and damping issues and all that, but the biggest one from a cargo aircraft's perspective is a very narrow center of gravity range. Not a big deal on a bomber with a concentrated bomb bay load, or a glider that doesn't have to cope with loading variations, but a bigger deal on a freighter. You are forced to spread the load, and the fuselage volume, laterally, creating way more frontal area than necessary (you're in effect turning the fuselage sideways), so you end up cancelling out the drag benefit of doing away with the tail in the first place, and still end up with a "temperamental" configuration.



        enter image description here






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$









        • 3




          $begingroup$
          Admittedly, without a long fuselage there will not be much length along which the cargo can be distributed. I'd call it a wash.
          $endgroup$
          – Peter Kämpf
          yesterday






        • 3




          $begingroup$
          That's what I meant by having to spread the loading laterally. But even within the space envelope you would have just within a flying wing stump fuselage or center section, the available loading range is pretty narrow. Bring your knees to your chest in a FW glider, where the allowable range is couple of inches, and you might find yourself aft of the rear limit.
          $endgroup$
          – John K
          yesterday






        • 3




          $begingroup$
          most excellent explanation!
          $endgroup$
          – niels nielsen
          23 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          This explanation is plainly wrong, as stability is not due to this. an aircraft can be perfectly statically stable with the center of lift ahead of the center of gravity. - In fact many aircraft work that way and it's more stable that way. - This is due to the lifting moment, and the way cl-alpha works.
          $endgroup$
          – paul23
          2 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          Admittedly it's better to use "neutral point" which takes in all of the various forces and moments acting on the aircraft that influence the "net balance point" so to speak, instead of center of lift. There still has to be a net down force acting at the tail, balancing the CG that has to be forward of the neutral point.
          $endgroup$
          – John K
          1 hour ago
















        28












        $begingroup$

        Flying wings can be made to have acceptable flying qualities without any artificial assistance. Just look at the Jim Marske glider designs.



        The principal downfall of flying wings is that stability in pitch is pretty much achieved the same way as with a conventional tail, with a down force balancing out the center of gravity forward of the fulcrum of neutral point of the lifting forces, but it's all being done over the very short moment arm of the wing chord itself. In other words the "tail" has been moved forward to the trailing edge of the main wing.



        There are a lot of issues that result from this, pitch sensitivity and damping issues and all that, but the biggest one from a cargo aircraft's perspective is a very narrow center of gravity range. Not a big deal on a bomber with a concentrated bomb bay load, or a glider that doesn't have to cope with loading variations, but a bigger deal on a freighter. You are forced to spread the load, and the fuselage volume, laterally, creating way more frontal area than necessary (you're in effect turning the fuselage sideways), so you end up cancelling out the drag benefit of doing away with the tail in the first place, and still end up with a "temperamental" configuration.



        enter image description here






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$









        • 3




          $begingroup$
          Admittedly, without a long fuselage there will not be much length along which the cargo can be distributed. I'd call it a wash.
          $endgroup$
          – Peter Kämpf
          yesterday






        • 3




          $begingroup$
          That's what I meant by having to spread the loading laterally. But even within the space envelope you would have just within a flying wing stump fuselage or center section, the available loading range is pretty narrow. Bring your knees to your chest in a FW glider, where the allowable range is couple of inches, and you might find yourself aft of the rear limit.
          $endgroup$
          – John K
          yesterday






        • 3




          $begingroup$
          most excellent explanation!
          $endgroup$
          – niels nielsen
          23 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          This explanation is plainly wrong, as stability is not due to this. an aircraft can be perfectly statically stable with the center of lift ahead of the center of gravity. - In fact many aircraft work that way and it's more stable that way. - This is due to the lifting moment, and the way cl-alpha works.
          $endgroup$
          – paul23
          2 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          Admittedly it's better to use "neutral point" which takes in all of the various forces and moments acting on the aircraft that influence the "net balance point" so to speak, instead of center of lift. There still has to be a net down force acting at the tail, balancing the CG that has to be forward of the neutral point.
          $endgroup$
          – John K
          1 hour ago














        28












        28








        28





        $begingroup$

        Flying wings can be made to have acceptable flying qualities without any artificial assistance. Just look at the Jim Marske glider designs.



        The principal downfall of flying wings is that stability in pitch is pretty much achieved the same way as with a conventional tail, with a down force balancing out the center of gravity forward of the fulcrum of neutral point of the lifting forces, but it's all being done over the very short moment arm of the wing chord itself. In other words the "tail" has been moved forward to the trailing edge of the main wing.



        There are a lot of issues that result from this, pitch sensitivity and damping issues and all that, but the biggest one from a cargo aircraft's perspective is a very narrow center of gravity range. Not a big deal on a bomber with a concentrated bomb bay load, or a glider that doesn't have to cope with loading variations, but a bigger deal on a freighter. You are forced to spread the load, and the fuselage volume, laterally, creating way more frontal area than necessary (you're in effect turning the fuselage sideways), so you end up cancelling out the drag benefit of doing away with the tail in the first place, and still end up with a "temperamental" configuration.



        enter image description here






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        Flying wings can be made to have acceptable flying qualities without any artificial assistance. Just look at the Jim Marske glider designs.



        The principal downfall of flying wings is that stability in pitch is pretty much achieved the same way as with a conventional tail, with a down force balancing out the center of gravity forward of the fulcrum of neutral point of the lifting forces, but it's all being done over the very short moment arm of the wing chord itself. In other words the "tail" has been moved forward to the trailing edge of the main wing.



        There are a lot of issues that result from this, pitch sensitivity and damping issues and all that, but the biggest one from a cargo aircraft's perspective is a very narrow center of gravity range. Not a big deal on a bomber with a concentrated bomb bay load, or a glider that doesn't have to cope with loading variations, but a bigger deal on a freighter. You are forced to spread the load, and the fuselage volume, laterally, creating way more frontal area than necessary (you're in effect turning the fuselage sideways), so you end up cancelling out the drag benefit of doing away with the tail in the first place, and still end up with a "temperamental" configuration.



        enter image description here







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 1 hour ago

























        answered yesterday









        John KJohn K

        25.6k13878




        25.6k13878








        • 3




          $begingroup$
          Admittedly, without a long fuselage there will not be much length along which the cargo can be distributed. I'd call it a wash.
          $endgroup$
          – Peter Kämpf
          yesterday






        • 3




          $begingroup$
          That's what I meant by having to spread the loading laterally. But even within the space envelope you would have just within a flying wing stump fuselage or center section, the available loading range is pretty narrow. Bring your knees to your chest in a FW glider, where the allowable range is couple of inches, and you might find yourself aft of the rear limit.
          $endgroup$
          – John K
          yesterday






        • 3




          $begingroup$
          most excellent explanation!
          $endgroup$
          – niels nielsen
          23 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          This explanation is plainly wrong, as stability is not due to this. an aircraft can be perfectly statically stable with the center of lift ahead of the center of gravity. - In fact many aircraft work that way and it's more stable that way. - This is due to the lifting moment, and the way cl-alpha works.
          $endgroup$
          – paul23
          2 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          Admittedly it's better to use "neutral point" which takes in all of the various forces and moments acting on the aircraft that influence the "net balance point" so to speak, instead of center of lift. There still has to be a net down force acting at the tail, balancing the CG that has to be forward of the neutral point.
          $endgroup$
          – John K
          1 hour ago














        • 3




          $begingroup$
          Admittedly, without a long fuselage there will not be much length along which the cargo can be distributed. I'd call it a wash.
          $endgroup$
          – Peter Kämpf
          yesterday






        • 3




          $begingroup$
          That's what I meant by having to spread the loading laterally. But even within the space envelope you would have just within a flying wing stump fuselage or center section, the available loading range is pretty narrow. Bring your knees to your chest in a FW glider, where the allowable range is couple of inches, and you might find yourself aft of the rear limit.
          $endgroup$
          – John K
          yesterday






        • 3




          $begingroup$
          most excellent explanation!
          $endgroup$
          – niels nielsen
          23 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          This explanation is plainly wrong, as stability is not due to this. an aircraft can be perfectly statically stable with the center of lift ahead of the center of gravity. - In fact many aircraft work that way and it's more stable that way. - This is due to the lifting moment, and the way cl-alpha works.
          $endgroup$
          – paul23
          2 hours ago










        • $begingroup$
          Admittedly it's better to use "neutral point" which takes in all of the various forces and moments acting on the aircraft that influence the "net balance point" so to speak, instead of center of lift. There still has to be a net down force acting at the tail, balancing the CG that has to be forward of the neutral point.
          $endgroup$
          – John K
          1 hour ago








        3




        3




        $begingroup$
        Admittedly, without a long fuselage there will not be much length along which the cargo can be distributed. I'd call it a wash.
        $endgroup$
        – Peter Kämpf
        yesterday




        $begingroup$
        Admittedly, without a long fuselage there will not be much length along which the cargo can be distributed. I'd call it a wash.
        $endgroup$
        – Peter Kämpf
        yesterday




        3




        3




        $begingroup$
        That's what I meant by having to spread the loading laterally. But even within the space envelope you would have just within a flying wing stump fuselage or center section, the available loading range is pretty narrow. Bring your knees to your chest in a FW glider, where the allowable range is couple of inches, and you might find yourself aft of the rear limit.
        $endgroup$
        – John K
        yesterday




        $begingroup$
        That's what I meant by having to spread the loading laterally. But even within the space envelope you would have just within a flying wing stump fuselage or center section, the available loading range is pretty narrow. Bring your knees to your chest in a FW glider, where the allowable range is couple of inches, and you might find yourself aft of the rear limit.
        $endgroup$
        – John K
        yesterday




        3




        3




        $begingroup$
        most excellent explanation!
        $endgroup$
        – niels nielsen
        23 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        most excellent explanation!
        $endgroup$
        – niels nielsen
        23 hours ago












        $begingroup$
        This explanation is plainly wrong, as stability is not due to this. an aircraft can be perfectly statically stable with the center of lift ahead of the center of gravity. - In fact many aircraft work that way and it's more stable that way. - This is due to the lifting moment, and the way cl-alpha works.
        $endgroup$
        – paul23
        2 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        This explanation is plainly wrong, as stability is not due to this. an aircraft can be perfectly statically stable with the center of lift ahead of the center of gravity. - In fact many aircraft work that way and it's more stable that way. - This is due to the lifting moment, and the way cl-alpha works.
        $endgroup$
        – paul23
        2 hours ago












        $begingroup$
        Admittedly it's better to use "neutral point" which takes in all of the various forces and moments acting on the aircraft that influence the "net balance point" so to speak, instead of center of lift. There still has to be a net down force acting at the tail, balancing the CG that has to be forward of the neutral point.
        $endgroup$
        – John K
        1 hour ago




        $begingroup$
        Admittedly it's better to use "neutral point" which takes in all of the various forces and moments acting on the aircraft that influence the "net balance point" so to speak, instead of center of lift. There still has to be a net down force acting at the tail, balancing the CG that has to be forward of the neutral point.
        $endgroup$
        – John K
        1 hour ago











        19












        $begingroup$

        Cargo aircraft (outside the military) almost always started life as passenger aircraft. The ratio of active large cargo aircraft to passenger aircraft is in the single percentages. Therefore, nobody develops a pure cargo aircraft from scratch.



        That does not mean that no one has tried. Especially for cargo, large flying wings have been proposed which store their cargo in containers along the wingspan - hence their name: Spanloaders. Below is an artist impression from the 1970s.



        Boeing Model 759-159 distributed load freighter concept from the 1970s



        Boeing Model 759-159 distributed load freighter concept from the 1970s (picture source)






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$









        • 8




          $begingroup$
          And to the military, soldiers are just another kind of cargo.
          $endgroup$
          – jamesqf
          yesterday






        • 4




          $begingroup$
          Where would that thing park?
          $endgroup$
          – Azor Ahai
          yesterday






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Not at the airport it's flying over, certainly...
          $endgroup$
          – Roger Lipscombe
          yesterday






        • 5




          $begingroup$
          Perhaps it doesn't park, or even land - just flies endlessly while smaller craft ferry fuel and cargo between it and the ground.
          $endgroup$
          – Skyler
          yesterday






        • 5




          $begingroup$
          @RogerLipscombe; Actually, if you look closely, you can see two of them on the ground. But I agree, a standard 98 ft runway will be too narrow.
          $endgroup$
          – Peter Kämpf
          18 hours ago
















        19












        $begingroup$

        Cargo aircraft (outside the military) almost always started life as passenger aircraft. The ratio of active large cargo aircraft to passenger aircraft is in the single percentages. Therefore, nobody develops a pure cargo aircraft from scratch.



        That does not mean that no one has tried. Especially for cargo, large flying wings have been proposed which store their cargo in containers along the wingspan - hence their name: Spanloaders. Below is an artist impression from the 1970s.



        Boeing Model 759-159 distributed load freighter concept from the 1970s



        Boeing Model 759-159 distributed load freighter concept from the 1970s (picture source)






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$









        • 8




          $begingroup$
          And to the military, soldiers are just another kind of cargo.
          $endgroup$
          – jamesqf
          yesterday






        • 4




          $begingroup$
          Where would that thing park?
          $endgroup$
          – Azor Ahai
          yesterday






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Not at the airport it's flying over, certainly...
          $endgroup$
          – Roger Lipscombe
          yesterday






        • 5




          $begingroup$
          Perhaps it doesn't park, or even land - just flies endlessly while smaller craft ferry fuel and cargo between it and the ground.
          $endgroup$
          – Skyler
          yesterday






        • 5




          $begingroup$
          @RogerLipscombe; Actually, if you look closely, you can see two of them on the ground. But I agree, a standard 98 ft runway will be too narrow.
          $endgroup$
          – Peter Kämpf
          18 hours ago














        19












        19








        19





        $begingroup$

        Cargo aircraft (outside the military) almost always started life as passenger aircraft. The ratio of active large cargo aircraft to passenger aircraft is in the single percentages. Therefore, nobody develops a pure cargo aircraft from scratch.



        That does not mean that no one has tried. Especially for cargo, large flying wings have been proposed which store their cargo in containers along the wingspan - hence their name: Spanloaders. Below is an artist impression from the 1970s.



        Boeing Model 759-159 distributed load freighter concept from the 1970s



        Boeing Model 759-159 distributed load freighter concept from the 1970s (picture source)






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        Cargo aircraft (outside the military) almost always started life as passenger aircraft. The ratio of active large cargo aircraft to passenger aircraft is in the single percentages. Therefore, nobody develops a pure cargo aircraft from scratch.



        That does not mean that no one has tried. Especially for cargo, large flying wings have been proposed which store their cargo in containers along the wingspan - hence their name: Spanloaders. Below is an artist impression from the 1970s.



        Boeing Model 759-159 distributed load freighter concept from the 1970s



        Boeing Model 759-159 distributed load freighter concept from the 1970s (picture source)







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited yesterday









        Community

        1




        1










        answered yesterday









        Peter KämpfPeter Kämpf

        162k12412658




        162k12412658








        • 8




          $begingroup$
          And to the military, soldiers are just another kind of cargo.
          $endgroup$
          – jamesqf
          yesterday






        • 4




          $begingroup$
          Where would that thing park?
          $endgroup$
          – Azor Ahai
          yesterday






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Not at the airport it's flying over, certainly...
          $endgroup$
          – Roger Lipscombe
          yesterday






        • 5




          $begingroup$
          Perhaps it doesn't park, or even land - just flies endlessly while smaller craft ferry fuel and cargo between it and the ground.
          $endgroup$
          – Skyler
          yesterday






        • 5




          $begingroup$
          @RogerLipscombe; Actually, if you look closely, you can see two of them on the ground. But I agree, a standard 98 ft runway will be too narrow.
          $endgroup$
          – Peter Kämpf
          18 hours ago














        • 8




          $begingroup$
          And to the military, soldiers are just another kind of cargo.
          $endgroup$
          – jamesqf
          yesterday






        • 4




          $begingroup$
          Where would that thing park?
          $endgroup$
          – Azor Ahai
          yesterday






        • 2




          $begingroup$
          Not at the airport it's flying over, certainly...
          $endgroup$
          – Roger Lipscombe
          yesterday






        • 5




          $begingroup$
          Perhaps it doesn't park, or even land - just flies endlessly while smaller craft ferry fuel and cargo between it and the ground.
          $endgroup$
          – Skyler
          yesterday






        • 5




          $begingroup$
          @RogerLipscombe; Actually, if you look closely, you can see two of them on the ground. But I agree, a standard 98 ft runway will be too narrow.
          $endgroup$
          – Peter Kämpf
          18 hours ago








        8




        8




        $begingroup$
        And to the military, soldiers are just another kind of cargo.
        $endgroup$
        – jamesqf
        yesterday




        $begingroup$
        And to the military, soldiers are just another kind of cargo.
        $endgroup$
        – jamesqf
        yesterday




        4




        4




        $begingroup$
        Where would that thing park?
        $endgroup$
        – Azor Ahai
        yesterday




        $begingroup$
        Where would that thing park?
        $endgroup$
        – Azor Ahai
        yesterday




        2




        2




        $begingroup$
        Not at the airport it's flying over, certainly...
        $endgroup$
        – Roger Lipscombe
        yesterday




        $begingroup$
        Not at the airport it's flying over, certainly...
        $endgroup$
        – Roger Lipscombe
        yesterday




        5




        5




        $begingroup$
        Perhaps it doesn't park, or even land - just flies endlessly while smaller craft ferry fuel and cargo between it and the ground.
        $endgroup$
        – Skyler
        yesterday




        $begingroup$
        Perhaps it doesn't park, or even land - just flies endlessly while smaller craft ferry fuel and cargo between it and the ground.
        $endgroup$
        – Skyler
        yesterday




        5




        5




        $begingroup$
        @RogerLipscombe; Actually, if you look closely, you can see two of them on the ground. But I agree, a standard 98 ft runway will be too narrow.
        $endgroup$
        – Peter Kämpf
        18 hours ago




        $begingroup$
        @RogerLipscombe; Actually, if you look closely, you can see two of them on the ground. But I agree, a standard 98 ft runway will be too narrow.
        $endgroup$
        – Peter Kämpf
        18 hours ago











        8












        $begingroup$

        For a start, with what it costs to design and certificate a new aircraft type, if a transport craft can't be reconfigured to carry either passengers or freight it won't make it off the napkin. The conventional transports we have can be switched from cargo to passenger and back, some in just a few hours. For a non-passenger transport to compete, it would have to be much cheaper (to buy and to operate) than a multi-purpose airframe.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$


















          8












          $begingroup$

          For a start, with what it costs to design and certificate a new aircraft type, if a transport craft can't be reconfigured to carry either passengers or freight it won't make it off the napkin. The conventional transports we have can be switched from cargo to passenger and back, some in just a few hours. For a non-passenger transport to compete, it would have to be much cheaper (to buy and to operate) than a multi-purpose airframe.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$
















            8












            8








            8





            $begingroup$

            For a start, with what it costs to design and certificate a new aircraft type, if a transport craft can't be reconfigured to carry either passengers or freight it won't make it off the napkin. The conventional transports we have can be switched from cargo to passenger and back, some in just a few hours. For a non-passenger transport to compete, it would have to be much cheaper (to buy and to operate) than a multi-purpose airframe.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            For a start, with what it costs to design and certificate a new aircraft type, if a transport craft can't be reconfigured to carry either passengers or freight it won't make it off the napkin. The conventional transports we have can be switched from cargo to passenger and back, some in just a few hours. For a non-passenger transport to compete, it would have to be much cheaper (to buy and to operate) than a multi-purpose airframe.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered yesterday









            Zeiss IkonZeiss Ikon

            3,542418




            3,542418























                6












                $begingroup$

                In addition to the other answers, a reason for the lack of flying wings in civil aviation in general is that they need to compete in an environment that has grown alongside conventional, fuselage-and-wings aircraft and is ill-suited for flying wings.



                This means they need to use the same airports (turning radii, RWY widths), fit into the same parking envelopes (wingspan) and be serviced by the same ground vehicles (bay heights, wing clearances). Because redesigning an entire industry worth of ancillary equipment and infrastructure has been deemed not worth the minor efficiency gains to be had from flying wings.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$









                • 2




                  $begingroup$
                  and the extremely conservative attitude of the people making purchasing decisions, that makes it very hard to get even things that look or sound a bit different from the established norm from getting adopted (think the Boeing Sonic Cruiser concept, or the Beechcraft 2000, as prime examples).
                  $endgroup$
                  – jwenting
                  20 hours ago
















                6












                $begingroup$

                In addition to the other answers, a reason for the lack of flying wings in civil aviation in general is that they need to compete in an environment that has grown alongside conventional, fuselage-and-wings aircraft and is ill-suited for flying wings.



                This means they need to use the same airports (turning radii, RWY widths), fit into the same parking envelopes (wingspan) and be serviced by the same ground vehicles (bay heights, wing clearances). Because redesigning an entire industry worth of ancillary equipment and infrastructure has been deemed not worth the minor efficiency gains to be had from flying wings.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$









                • 2




                  $begingroup$
                  and the extremely conservative attitude of the people making purchasing decisions, that makes it very hard to get even things that look or sound a bit different from the established norm from getting adopted (think the Boeing Sonic Cruiser concept, or the Beechcraft 2000, as prime examples).
                  $endgroup$
                  – jwenting
                  20 hours ago














                6












                6








                6





                $begingroup$

                In addition to the other answers, a reason for the lack of flying wings in civil aviation in general is that they need to compete in an environment that has grown alongside conventional, fuselage-and-wings aircraft and is ill-suited for flying wings.



                This means they need to use the same airports (turning radii, RWY widths), fit into the same parking envelopes (wingspan) and be serviced by the same ground vehicles (bay heights, wing clearances). Because redesigning an entire industry worth of ancillary equipment and infrastructure has been deemed not worth the minor efficiency gains to be had from flying wings.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$



                In addition to the other answers, a reason for the lack of flying wings in civil aviation in general is that they need to compete in an environment that has grown alongside conventional, fuselage-and-wings aircraft and is ill-suited for flying wings.



                This means they need to use the same airports (turning radii, RWY widths), fit into the same parking envelopes (wingspan) and be serviced by the same ground vehicles (bay heights, wing clearances). Because redesigning an entire industry worth of ancillary equipment and infrastructure has been deemed not worth the minor efficiency gains to be had from flying wings.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered yesterday









                AEhereAEhere

                1,555519




                1,555519








                • 2




                  $begingroup$
                  and the extremely conservative attitude of the people making purchasing decisions, that makes it very hard to get even things that look or sound a bit different from the established norm from getting adopted (think the Boeing Sonic Cruiser concept, or the Beechcraft 2000, as prime examples).
                  $endgroup$
                  – jwenting
                  20 hours ago














                • 2




                  $begingroup$
                  and the extremely conservative attitude of the people making purchasing decisions, that makes it very hard to get even things that look or sound a bit different from the established norm from getting adopted (think the Boeing Sonic Cruiser concept, or the Beechcraft 2000, as prime examples).
                  $endgroup$
                  – jwenting
                  20 hours ago








                2




                2




                $begingroup$
                and the extremely conservative attitude of the people making purchasing decisions, that makes it very hard to get even things that look or sound a bit different from the established norm from getting adopted (think the Boeing Sonic Cruiser concept, or the Beechcraft 2000, as prime examples).
                $endgroup$
                – jwenting
                20 hours ago




                $begingroup$
                and the extremely conservative attitude of the people making purchasing decisions, that makes it very hard to get even things that look or sound a bit different from the established norm from getting adopted (think the Boeing Sonic Cruiser concept, or the Beechcraft 2000, as prime examples).
                $endgroup$
                – jwenting
                20 hours ago











                3












                $begingroup$

                Flying wings simply don't have much internal space for cargo, so they're a non-starter for cargo planes.



                You mention the B-2 which will carry 18 tons of bombs. However, bombs are small and heavy: for example, a US Mark 82 bomb is essentially a 130kg (300lb) metal box filled with 90kg (200lb) of explosives. Most airline cargo isn't packed in thick, heavy metal boxes like that, so turning the B-2's bomb bay into a cargo bay wouldn't create a very useful cargo plane.



                Which is good, because the designation C-2 is already taken. *rimshot*






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$


















                  3












                  $begingroup$

                  Flying wings simply don't have much internal space for cargo, so they're a non-starter for cargo planes.



                  You mention the B-2 which will carry 18 tons of bombs. However, bombs are small and heavy: for example, a US Mark 82 bomb is essentially a 130kg (300lb) metal box filled with 90kg (200lb) of explosives. Most airline cargo isn't packed in thick, heavy metal boxes like that, so turning the B-2's bomb bay into a cargo bay wouldn't create a very useful cargo plane.



                  Which is good, because the designation C-2 is already taken. *rimshot*






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$
















                    3












                    3








                    3





                    $begingroup$

                    Flying wings simply don't have much internal space for cargo, so they're a non-starter for cargo planes.



                    You mention the B-2 which will carry 18 tons of bombs. However, bombs are small and heavy: for example, a US Mark 82 bomb is essentially a 130kg (300lb) metal box filled with 90kg (200lb) of explosives. Most airline cargo isn't packed in thick, heavy metal boxes like that, so turning the B-2's bomb bay into a cargo bay wouldn't create a very useful cargo plane.



                    Which is good, because the designation C-2 is already taken. *rimshot*






                    share|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$



                    Flying wings simply don't have much internal space for cargo, so they're a non-starter for cargo planes.



                    You mention the B-2 which will carry 18 tons of bombs. However, bombs are small and heavy: for example, a US Mark 82 bomb is essentially a 130kg (300lb) metal box filled with 90kg (200lb) of explosives. Most airline cargo isn't packed in thick, heavy metal boxes like that, so turning the B-2's bomb bay into a cargo bay wouldn't create a very useful cargo plane.



                    Which is good, because the designation C-2 is already taken. *rimshot*







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 11 hours ago









                    David RicherbyDavid Richerby

                    10.4k33679




                    10.4k33679























                        2












                        $begingroup$

                        It's all about CG range and how much abuse the design can take. Take a look at the C-130 Hercules. It has a huge Hstab to cope with a wide range of CG. Really a bi-plane. So is the Chinook helicopter. Holding the table up with 4 legs (6 with a canard).



                        So, what do we do to get to a viable flying wing? Sweep back offers improvement in pitch stability as (with washout) you lengthen the aircraft. Control surfaces can be placed at the wing tips. Reflexed camber airfoils also help. How to cope the loss of a longer fuselage/Hstab pitch torque arm? Have the cargo bay set on a roller at CG.
                        Pull it forward until it tips. Secure, cargo balanced! Fuel tanks can be arranged to drain evenly. Assuming a subsonic design with near neutral static stability, it may even fly without computers.



                        But the all important shift in Clift with change in AOA or airspeed must be accounted for.
                        So a small tail, like birds have, may help build a better safety margin for the design, with or without computers. Ditto for lower aspect wings. Interestingly, a bird sweeping its wings back becomes ... a delta. Sweep them back out ... an F-111?



                        It is possible to reduce tail size in cargo, and passenger planes.






                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$


















                          2












                          $begingroup$

                          It's all about CG range and how much abuse the design can take. Take a look at the C-130 Hercules. It has a huge Hstab to cope with a wide range of CG. Really a bi-plane. So is the Chinook helicopter. Holding the table up with 4 legs (6 with a canard).



                          So, what do we do to get to a viable flying wing? Sweep back offers improvement in pitch stability as (with washout) you lengthen the aircraft. Control surfaces can be placed at the wing tips. Reflexed camber airfoils also help. How to cope the loss of a longer fuselage/Hstab pitch torque arm? Have the cargo bay set on a roller at CG.
                          Pull it forward until it tips. Secure, cargo balanced! Fuel tanks can be arranged to drain evenly. Assuming a subsonic design with near neutral static stability, it may even fly without computers.



                          But the all important shift in Clift with change in AOA or airspeed must be accounted for.
                          So a small tail, like birds have, may help build a better safety margin for the design, with or without computers. Ditto for lower aspect wings. Interestingly, a bird sweeping its wings back becomes ... a delta. Sweep them back out ... an F-111?



                          It is possible to reduce tail size in cargo, and passenger planes.






                          share|improve this answer











                          $endgroup$
















                            2












                            2








                            2





                            $begingroup$

                            It's all about CG range and how much abuse the design can take. Take a look at the C-130 Hercules. It has a huge Hstab to cope with a wide range of CG. Really a bi-plane. So is the Chinook helicopter. Holding the table up with 4 legs (6 with a canard).



                            So, what do we do to get to a viable flying wing? Sweep back offers improvement in pitch stability as (with washout) you lengthen the aircraft. Control surfaces can be placed at the wing tips. Reflexed camber airfoils also help. How to cope the loss of a longer fuselage/Hstab pitch torque arm? Have the cargo bay set on a roller at CG.
                            Pull it forward until it tips. Secure, cargo balanced! Fuel tanks can be arranged to drain evenly. Assuming a subsonic design with near neutral static stability, it may even fly without computers.



                            But the all important shift in Clift with change in AOA or airspeed must be accounted for.
                            So a small tail, like birds have, may help build a better safety margin for the design, with or without computers. Ditto for lower aspect wings. Interestingly, a bird sweeping its wings back becomes ... a delta. Sweep them back out ... an F-111?



                            It is possible to reduce tail size in cargo, and passenger planes.






                            share|improve this answer











                            $endgroup$



                            It's all about CG range and how much abuse the design can take. Take a look at the C-130 Hercules. It has a huge Hstab to cope with a wide range of CG. Really a bi-plane. So is the Chinook helicopter. Holding the table up with 4 legs (6 with a canard).



                            So, what do we do to get to a viable flying wing? Sweep back offers improvement in pitch stability as (with washout) you lengthen the aircraft. Control surfaces can be placed at the wing tips. Reflexed camber airfoils also help. How to cope the loss of a longer fuselage/Hstab pitch torque arm? Have the cargo bay set on a roller at CG.
                            Pull it forward until it tips. Secure, cargo balanced! Fuel tanks can be arranged to drain evenly. Assuming a subsonic design with near neutral static stability, it may even fly without computers.



                            But the all important shift in Clift with change in AOA or airspeed must be accounted for.
                            So a small tail, like birds have, may help build a better safety margin for the design, with or without computers. Ditto for lower aspect wings. Interestingly, a bird sweeping its wings back becomes ... a delta. Sweep them back out ... an F-111?



                            It is possible to reduce tail size in cargo, and passenger planes.







                            share|improve this answer














                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer








                            edited yesterday

























                            answered yesterday









                            Robert DiGiovanniRobert DiGiovanni

                            2,8891316




                            2,8891316






















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