“Thousand Dollars Worth” or “Thousand Dollars' Worth”. Is this a Possessive?





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up vote
14
down vote

favorite
1












I was writing the following sentence:




Five thousand dollars worth of equipment does not a professional photographer make.




Apart from the other questionable syntax in this over-stylized sentence, what occurred to me, courtesy of Microsoft auto correct, was that "thousand dollars" may need to be in possessive form, though it's not immediately occurring to me why this would be. So which is correct:




Five thousand dollars worth of equipment does not a professional photographer make.




or




Five thousand dollars' worth of equipment does not a professional photographer make.











share|improve this question
























  • See also this question at ELL: $2000 worth of items (two thousand dollar or dollars?)
    – lly
    Jul 11 at 7:57










  • Note that the possessive and the plural are pronounced identically, and the question is just about whether a silent apo'stroph'e should be included when it's written. Thus this is not a question about the language at all; nobody can tell the difference in speech. And nobody has a definitive answer for the punctuation, either. Hence, quit worrying about it; if you screw up, nobody can tell.
    – John Lawler
    Jul 11 at 20:35



















up vote
14
down vote

favorite
1












I was writing the following sentence:




Five thousand dollars worth of equipment does not a professional photographer make.




Apart from the other questionable syntax in this over-stylized sentence, what occurred to me, courtesy of Microsoft auto correct, was that "thousand dollars" may need to be in possessive form, though it's not immediately occurring to me why this would be. So which is correct:




Five thousand dollars worth of equipment does not a professional photographer make.




or




Five thousand dollars' worth of equipment does not a professional photographer make.











share|improve this question
























  • See also this question at ELL: $2000 worth of items (two thousand dollar or dollars?)
    – lly
    Jul 11 at 7:57










  • Note that the possessive and the plural are pronounced identically, and the question is just about whether a silent apo'stroph'e should be included when it's written. Thus this is not a question about the language at all; nobody can tell the difference in speech. And nobody has a definitive answer for the punctuation, either. Hence, quit worrying about it; if you screw up, nobody can tell.
    – John Lawler
    Jul 11 at 20:35















up vote
14
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
14
down vote

favorite
1






1





I was writing the following sentence:




Five thousand dollars worth of equipment does not a professional photographer make.




Apart from the other questionable syntax in this over-stylized sentence, what occurred to me, courtesy of Microsoft auto correct, was that "thousand dollars" may need to be in possessive form, though it's not immediately occurring to me why this would be. So which is correct:




Five thousand dollars worth of equipment does not a professional photographer make.




or




Five thousand dollars' worth of equipment does not a professional photographer make.











share|improve this question















I was writing the following sentence:




Five thousand dollars worth of equipment does not a professional photographer make.




Apart from the other questionable syntax in this over-stylized sentence, what occurred to me, courtesy of Microsoft auto correct, was that "thousand dollars" may need to be in possessive form, though it's not immediately occurring to me why this would be. So which is correct:




Five thousand dollars worth of equipment does not a professional photographer make.




or




Five thousand dollars' worth of equipment does not a professional photographer make.








possessives






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited May 17 '11 at 19:56









snumpy

6,44263254




6,44263254










asked May 17 '11 at 15:18









Bob Kaufman

2401411




2401411












  • See also this question at ELL: $2000 worth of items (two thousand dollar or dollars?)
    – lly
    Jul 11 at 7:57










  • Note that the possessive and the plural are pronounced identically, and the question is just about whether a silent apo'stroph'e should be included when it's written. Thus this is not a question about the language at all; nobody can tell the difference in speech. And nobody has a definitive answer for the punctuation, either. Hence, quit worrying about it; if you screw up, nobody can tell.
    – John Lawler
    Jul 11 at 20:35




















  • See also this question at ELL: $2000 worth of items (two thousand dollar or dollars?)
    – lly
    Jul 11 at 7:57










  • Note that the possessive and the plural are pronounced identically, and the question is just about whether a silent apo'stroph'e should be included when it's written. Thus this is not a question about the language at all; nobody can tell the difference in speech. And nobody has a definitive answer for the punctuation, either. Hence, quit worrying about it; if you screw up, nobody can tell.
    – John Lawler
    Jul 11 at 20:35


















See also this question at ELL: $2000 worth of items (two thousand dollar or dollars?)
– lly
Jul 11 at 7:57




See also this question at ELL: $2000 worth of items (two thousand dollar or dollars?)
– lly
Jul 11 at 7:57












Note that the possessive and the plural are pronounced identically, and the question is just about whether a silent apo'stroph'e should be included when it's written. Thus this is not a question about the language at all; nobody can tell the difference in speech. And nobody has a definitive answer for the punctuation, either. Hence, quit worrying about it; if you screw up, nobody can tell.
– John Lawler
Jul 11 at 20:35






Note that the possessive and the plural are pronounced identically, and the question is just about whether a silent apo'stroph'e should be included when it's written. Thus this is not a question about the language at all; nobody can tell the difference in speech. And nobody has a definitive answer for the punctuation, either. Hence, quit worrying about it; if you screw up, nobody can tell.
– John Lawler
Jul 11 at 20:35












5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
13
down vote



accepted










These cases aren't tricky if you ask yourself the following question: how would you write "one dollar's worth"?



In other words, "dollar" naturally requires an "s" in this case, even though we are talking about "one dollar".



Therefore, it is a case of possession, meaning that we are referring to the "worth" of "thousands of dollars". So, the possessive apostrophe should fall after the "s".



The same rule applies to "seven years' jail" and "one year's jail". Many journalists etc. are clearly none the wiser about this topic, as even some of the most astute publications contain articles which omit the apostrophe.






share|improve this answer



















  • 1




    "Another words"?
    – hunter2
    Jul 5 '13 at 8:01






  • 1




    In other words?
    – sv.
    Sep 8 '15 at 20:36










  • Explanation by analogy and intuition is often risky.  You say, «These cases aren’t tricky if you ask yourself the following question: how would you write “one dollar’s worth”?»  I suspect that many English speakers would write “one dollar worth”.
    – Scott
    Jul 11 at 20:50


















up vote
8
down vote













The possessive is necessary because you're indicating that the worth or value possessed by the equipment is equivalent to the worth or value possessed by five thousand dollars. Hence, Five thousand dollars' worth






share|improve this answer




























    up vote
    5
    down vote













    Normally I would say the possessive is necessary, but it is interesting to observe the trend in usage via Google NGrams:



    Google NGram



    As you can see, the possessive was overwhelmingly preferred beginning in the 1830s, crested around 1920, and after WWII has been in steady decline. It has been putting up roughly the same numbers as "dollars worth" beginning in the late 1970s, and has experienced a slight up-tick since around 2005.






    share|improve this answer

















    • 1




      +1 for introducing NGrams to me... my latest complete waste of time!
      – Bob Kaufman
      May 17 '11 at 18:56












    • Thought this may also just been a combination of "dollars' worth" being a somewhat dated expression and the occurrence of "dollars worth"--correctly--in phrases like "How much is 100 US dollars worth in England" (which is one of the first search hits returned for "dollars worth")
      – adam.smith
      Aug 27 '14 at 18:15










    • @adam.smith Good point. This answer was given before I started reevaluating use of NGrams on ELU.
      – Robusto
      Aug 27 '14 at 19:45


















    up vote
    3
    down vote













    These cases can be very tricky. I've found the following document very helpful in determining when to use apostrophes:
    Genitive is Not Always Possessive.



    The following section
    (referring to Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage)
    is most relevant to your question:




    They discuss a number of uses of the genitive and give examples of each. 
    Under 'descriptive genitive or classifying genitive', with the comment 'Fries adds the genitive of measure to this', they list:


      the room's furnishings

      the airplane's speed

      the building's foundation

      one day's leave
      a dollar's worth

      a year's wages

      the Eighty Years' War







    share|improve this answer






























      up vote
      2
      down vote













      This is very similar to the "Two Weeks Notice" problem featured by Lynne Truss, the apostrophe campaigner and author of "Eats, Shoots and Leaves.



      It should definitely be "Thousand Dollars' Worth", by the way.






      share|improve this answer























      • Your link returns a 403-Forbidden response. Is there another way to see this, or can you post a summary?
        – Bob Kaufman
        Jul 2 '13 at 16:48










      • Link(s) edited.
        – Phil M Jones
        Jul 4 '13 at 16:00










      protected by tchrist Nov 16 '16 at 14:46



      Thank you for your interest in this question.
      Because it has attracted low-quality or spam answers that had to be removed, posting an answer now requires 10 reputation on this site (the association bonus does not count).



      Would you like to answer one of these unanswered questions instead?














      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

      votes








      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes








      up vote
      13
      down vote



      accepted










      These cases aren't tricky if you ask yourself the following question: how would you write "one dollar's worth"?



      In other words, "dollar" naturally requires an "s" in this case, even though we are talking about "one dollar".



      Therefore, it is a case of possession, meaning that we are referring to the "worth" of "thousands of dollars". So, the possessive apostrophe should fall after the "s".



      The same rule applies to "seven years' jail" and "one year's jail". Many journalists etc. are clearly none the wiser about this topic, as even some of the most astute publications contain articles which omit the apostrophe.






      share|improve this answer



















      • 1




        "Another words"?
        – hunter2
        Jul 5 '13 at 8:01






      • 1




        In other words?
        – sv.
        Sep 8 '15 at 20:36










      • Explanation by analogy and intuition is often risky.  You say, «These cases aren’t tricky if you ask yourself the following question: how would you write “one dollar’s worth”?»  I suspect that many English speakers would write “one dollar worth”.
        – Scott
        Jul 11 at 20:50















      up vote
      13
      down vote



      accepted










      These cases aren't tricky if you ask yourself the following question: how would you write "one dollar's worth"?



      In other words, "dollar" naturally requires an "s" in this case, even though we are talking about "one dollar".



      Therefore, it is a case of possession, meaning that we are referring to the "worth" of "thousands of dollars". So, the possessive apostrophe should fall after the "s".



      The same rule applies to "seven years' jail" and "one year's jail". Many journalists etc. are clearly none the wiser about this topic, as even some of the most astute publications contain articles which omit the apostrophe.






      share|improve this answer



















      • 1




        "Another words"?
        – hunter2
        Jul 5 '13 at 8:01






      • 1




        In other words?
        – sv.
        Sep 8 '15 at 20:36










      • Explanation by analogy and intuition is often risky.  You say, «These cases aren’t tricky if you ask yourself the following question: how would you write “one dollar’s worth”?»  I suspect that many English speakers would write “one dollar worth”.
        – Scott
        Jul 11 at 20:50













      up vote
      13
      down vote



      accepted







      up vote
      13
      down vote



      accepted






      These cases aren't tricky if you ask yourself the following question: how would you write "one dollar's worth"?



      In other words, "dollar" naturally requires an "s" in this case, even though we are talking about "one dollar".



      Therefore, it is a case of possession, meaning that we are referring to the "worth" of "thousands of dollars". So, the possessive apostrophe should fall after the "s".



      The same rule applies to "seven years' jail" and "one year's jail". Many journalists etc. are clearly none the wiser about this topic, as even some of the most astute publications contain articles which omit the apostrophe.






      share|improve this answer














      These cases aren't tricky if you ask yourself the following question: how would you write "one dollar's worth"?



      In other words, "dollar" naturally requires an "s" in this case, even though we are talking about "one dollar".



      Therefore, it is a case of possession, meaning that we are referring to the "worth" of "thousands of dollars". So, the possessive apostrophe should fall after the "s".



      The same rule applies to "seven years' jail" and "one year's jail". Many journalists etc. are clearly none the wiser about this topic, as even some of the most astute publications contain articles which omit the apostrophe.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited Nov 15 '17 at 5:49









      Sven Yargs

      110k18234490




      110k18234490










      answered Jul 2 '13 at 0:07









      user47079

      14612




      14612








      • 1




        "Another words"?
        – hunter2
        Jul 5 '13 at 8:01






      • 1




        In other words?
        – sv.
        Sep 8 '15 at 20:36










      • Explanation by analogy and intuition is often risky.  You say, «These cases aren’t tricky if you ask yourself the following question: how would you write “one dollar’s worth”?»  I suspect that many English speakers would write “one dollar worth”.
        – Scott
        Jul 11 at 20:50














      • 1




        "Another words"?
        – hunter2
        Jul 5 '13 at 8:01






      • 1




        In other words?
        – sv.
        Sep 8 '15 at 20:36










      • Explanation by analogy and intuition is often risky.  You say, «These cases aren’t tricky if you ask yourself the following question: how would you write “one dollar’s worth”?»  I suspect that many English speakers would write “one dollar worth”.
        – Scott
        Jul 11 at 20:50








      1




      1




      "Another words"?
      – hunter2
      Jul 5 '13 at 8:01




      "Another words"?
      – hunter2
      Jul 5 '13 at 8:01




      1




      1




      In other words?
      – sv.
      Sep 8 '15 at 20:36




      In other words?
      – sv.
      Sep 8 '15 at 20:36












      Explanation by analogy and intuition is often risky.  You say, «These cases aren’t tricky if you ask yourself the following question: how would you write “one dollar’s worth”?»  I suspect that many English speakers would write “one dollar worth”.
      – Scott
      Jul 11 at 20:50




      Explanation by analogy and intuition is often risky.  You say, «These cases aren’t tricky if you ask yourself the following question: how would you write “one dollar’s worth”?»  I suspect that many English speakers would write “one dollar worth”.
      – Scott
      Jul 11 at 20:50












      up vote
      8
      down vote













      The possessive is necessary because you're indicating that the worth or value possessed by the equipment is equivalent to the worth or value possessed by five thousand dollars. Hence, Five thousand dollars' worth






      share|improve this answer

























        up vote
        8
        down vote













        The possessive is necessary because you're indicating that the worth or value possessed by the equipment is equivalent to the worth or value possessed by five thousand dollars. Hence, Five thousand dollars' worth






        share|improve this answer























          up vote
          8
          down vote










          up vote
          8
          down vote









          The possessive is necessary because you're indicating that the worth or value possessed by the equipment is equivalent to the worth or value possessed by five thousand dollars. Hence, Five thousand dollars' worth






          share|improve this answer












          The possessive is necessary because you're indicating that the worth or value possessed by the equipment is equivalent to the worth or value possessed by five thousand dollars. Hence, Five thousand dollars' worth







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered May 17 '11 at 15:25









          Brian Driscoll

          37716




          37716






















              up vote
              5
              down vote













              Normally I would say the possessive is necessary, but it is interesting to observe the trend in usage via Google NGrams:



              Google NGram



              As you can see, the possessive was overwhelmingly preferred beginning in the 1830s, crested around 1920, and after WWII has been in steady decline. It has been putting up roughly the same numbers as "dollars worth" beginning in the late 1970s, and has experienced a slight up-tick since around 2005.






              share|improve this answer

















              • 1




                +1 for introducing NGrams to me... my latest complete waste of time!
                – Bob Kaufman
                May 17 '11 at 18:56












              • Thought this may also just been a combination of "dollars' worth" being a somewhat dated expression and the occurrence of "dollars worth"--correctly--in phrases like "How much is 100 US dollars worth in England" (which is one of the first search hits returned for "dollars worth")
                – adam.smith
                Aug 27 '14 at 18:15










              • @adam.smith Good point. This answer was given before I started reevaluating use of NGrams on ELU.
                – Robusto
                Aug 27 '14 at 19:45















              up vote
              5
              down vote













              Normally I would say the possessive is necessary, but it is interesting to observe the trend in usage via Google NGrams:



              Google NGram



              As you can see, the possessive was overwhelmingly preferred beginning in the 1830s, crested around 1920, and after WWII has been in steady decline. It has been putting up roughly the same numbers as "dollars worth" beginning in the late 1970s, and has experienced a slight up-tick since around 2005.






              share|improve this answer

















              • 1




                +1 for introducing NGrams to me... my latest complete waste of time!
                – Bob Kaufman
                May 17 '11 at 18:56












              • Thought this may also just been a combination of "dollars' worth" being a somewhat dated expression and the occurrence of "dollars worth"--correctly--in phrases like "How much is 100 US dollars worth in England" (which is one of the first search hits returned for "dollars worth")
                – adam.smith
                Aug 27 '14 at 18:15










              • @adam.smith Good point. This answer was given before I started reevaluating use of NGrams on ELU.
                – Robusto
                Aug 27 '14 at 19:45













              up vote
              5
              down vote










              up vote
              5
              down vote









              Normally I would say the possessive is necessary, but it is interesting to observe the trend in usage via Google NGrams:



              Google NGram



              As you can see, the possessive was overwhelmingly preferred beginning in the 1830s, crested around 1920, and after WWII has been in steady decline. It has been putting up roughly the same numbers as "dollars worth" beginning in the late 1970s, and has experienced a slight up-tick since around 2005.






              share|improve this answer












              Normally I would say the possessive is necessary, but it is interesting to observe the trend in usage via Google NGrams:



              Google NGram



              As you can see, the possessive was overwhelmingly preferred beginning in the 1830s, crested around 1920, and after WWII has been in steady decline. It has been putting up roughly the same numbers as "dollars worth" beginning in the late 1970s, and has experienced a slight up-tick since around 2005.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered May 17 '11 at 15:45









              Robusto

              127k27303512




              127k27303512








              • 1




                +1 for introducing NGrams to me... my latest complete waste of time!
                – Bob Kaufman
                May 17 '11 at 18:56












              • Thought this may also just been a combination of "dollars' worth" being a somewhat dated expression and the occurrence of "dollars worth"--correctly--in phrases like "How much is 100 US dollars worth in England" (which is one of the first search hits returned for "dollars worth")
                – adam.smith
                Aug 27 '14 at 18:15










              • @adam.smith Good point. This answer was given before I started reevaluating use of NGrams on ELU.
                – Robusto
                Aug 27 '14 at 19:45














              • 1




                +1 for introducing NGrams to me... my latest complete waste of time!
                – Bob Kaufman
                May 17 '11 at 18:56












              • Thought this may also just been a combination of "dollars' worth" being a somewhat dated expression and the occurrence of "dollars worth"--correctly--in phrases like "How much is 100 US dollars worth in England" (which is one of the first search hits returned for "dollars worth")
                – adam.smith
                Aug 27 '14 at 18:15










              • @adam.smith Good point. This answer was given before I started reevaluating use of NGrams on ELU.
                – Robusto
                Aug 27 '14 at 19:45








              1




              1




              +1 for introducing NGrams to me... my latest complete waste of time!
              – Bob Kaufman
              May 17 '11 at 18:56






              +1 for introducing NGrams to me... my latest complete waste of time!
              – Bob Kaufman
              May 17 '11 at 18:56














              Thought this may also just been a combination of "dollars' worth" being a somewhat dated expression and the occurrence of "dollars worth"--correctly--in phrases like "How much is 100 US dollars worth in England" (which is one of the first search hits returned for "dollars worth")
              – adam.smith
              Aug 27 '14 at 18:15




              Thought this may also just been a combination of "dollars' worth" being a somewhat dated expression and the occurrence of "dollars worth"--correctly--in phrases like "How much is 100 US dollars worth in England" (which is one of the first search hits returned for "dollars worth")
              – adam.smith
              Aug 27 '14 at 18:15












              @adam.smith Good point. This answer was given before I started reevaluating use of NGrams on ELU.
              – Robusto
              Aug 27 '14 at 19:45




              @adam.smith Good point. This answer was given before I started reevaluating use of NGrams on ELU.
              – Robusto
              Aug 27 '14 at 19:45










              up vote
              3
              down vote













              These cases can be very tricky. I've found the following document very helpful in determining when to use apostrophes:
              Genitive is Not Always Possessive.



              The following section
              (referring to Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage)
              is most relevant to your question:




              They discuss a number of uses of the genitive and give examples of each. 
              Under 'descriptive genitive or classifying genitive', with the comment 'Fries adds the genitive of measure to this', they list:


                the room's furnishings

                the airplane's speed

                the building's foundation

                one day's leave
                a dollar's worth

                a year's wages

                the Eighty Years' War







              share|improve this answer



























                up vote
                3
                down vote













                These cases can be very tricky. I've found the following document very helpful in determining when to use apostrophes:
                Genitive is Not Always Possessive.



                The following section
                (referring to Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage)
                is most relevant to your question:




                They discuss a number of uses of the genitive and give examples of each. 
                Under 'descriptive genitive or classifying genitive', with the comment 'Fries adds the genitive of measure to this', they list:


                  the room's furnishings

                  the airplane's speed

                  the building's foundation

                  one day's leave
                  a dollar's worth

                  a year's wages

                  the Eighty Years' War







                share|improve this answer

























                  up vote
                  3
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  3
                  down vote









                  These cases can be very tricky. I've found the following document very helpful in determining when to use apostrophes:
                  Genitive is Not Always Possessive.



                  The following section
                  (referring to Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage)
                  is most relevant to your question:




                  They discuss a number of uses of the genitive and give examples of each. 
                  Under 'descriptive genitive or classifying genitive', with the comment 'Fries adds the genitive of measure to this', they list:


                    the room's furnishings

                    the airplane's speed

                    the building's foundation

                    one day's leave
                    a dollar's worth

                    a year's wages

                    the Eighty Years' War







                  share|improve this answer














                  These cases can be very tricky. I've found the following document very helpful in determining when to use apostrophes:
                  Genitive is Not Always Possessive.



                  The following section
                  (referring to Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage)
                  is most relevant to your question:




                  They discuss a number of uses of the genitive and give examples of each. 
                  Under 'descriptive genitive or classifying genitive', with the comment 'Fries adds the genitive of measure to this', they list:


                    the room's furnishings

                    the airplane's speed

                    the building's foundation

                    one day's leave
                    a dollar's worth

                    a year's wages

                    the Eighty Years' War








                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited Jul 11 at 20:29









                  Scott

                  6,53582849




                  6,53582849










                  answered May 17 '11 at 18:41









                  ajk

                  1,528912




                  1,528912






















                      up vote
                      2
                      down vote













                      This is very similar to the "Two Weeks Notice" problem featured by Lynne Truss, the apostrophe campaigner and author of "Eats, Shoots and Leaves.



                      It should definitely be "Thousand Dollars' Worth", by the way.






                      share|improve this answer























                      • Your link returns a 403-Forbidden response. Is there another way to see this, or can you post a summary?
                        – Bob Kaufman
                        Jul 2 '13 at 16:48










                      • Link(s) edited.
                        – Phil M Jones
                        Jul 4 '13 at 16:00















                      up vote
                      2
                      down vote













                      This is very similar to the "Two Weeks Notice" problem featured by Lynne Truss, the apostrophe campaigner and author of "Eats, Shoots and Leaves.



                      It should definitely be "Thousand Dollars' Worth", by the way.






                      share|improve this answer























                      • Your link returns a 403-Forbidden response. Is there another way to see this, or can you post a summary?
                        – Bob Kaufman
                        Jul 2 '13 at 16:48










                      • Link(s) edited.
                        – Phil M Jones
                        Jul 4 '13 at 16:00













                      up vote
                      2
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      2
                      down vote









                      This is very similar to the "Two Weeks Notice" problem featured by Lynne Truss, the apostrophe campaigner and author of "Eats, Shoots and Leaves.



                      It should definitely be "Thousand Dollars' Worth", by the way.






                      share|improve this answer














                      This is very similar to the "Two Weeks Notice" problem featured by Lynne Truss, the apostrophe campaigner and author of "Eats, Shoots and Leaves.



                      It should definitely be "Thousand Dollars' Worth", by the way.







                      share|improve this answer














                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited Jul 4 '13 at 13:51

























                      answered Jul 2 '13 at 15:43









                      Phil M Jones

                      5,34311120




                      5,34311120












                      • Your link returns a 403-Forbidden response. Is there another way to see this, or can you post a summary?
                        – Bob Kaufman
                        Jul 2 '13 at 16:48










                      • Link(s) edited.
                        – Phil M Jones
                        Jul 4 '13 at 16:00


















                      • Your link returns a 403-Forbidden response. Is there another way to see this, or can you post a summary?
                        – Bob Kaufman
                        Jul 2 '13 at 16:48










                      • Link(s) edited.
                        – Phil M Jones
                        Jul 4 '13 at 16:00
















                      Your link returns a 403-Forbidden response. Is there another way to see this, or can you post a summary?
                      – Bob Kaufman
                      Jul 2 '13 at 16:48




                      Your link returns a 403-Forbidden response. Is there another way to see this, or can you post a summary?
                      – Bob Kaufman
                      Jul 2 '13 at 16:48












                      Link(s) edited.
                      – Phil M Jones
                      Jul 4 '13 at 16:00




                      Link(s) edited.
                      – Phil M Jones
                      Jul 4 '13 at 16:00





                      protected by tchrist Nov 16 '16 at 14:46



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