What is the origin of the phrase “needle in a hay stack”?
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What is the origin of the phrase "needle in a hay stack"? Initially I thought it was a game once played but I haven't found any mention of it outside of it's idiomatic use.
etymology idioms
asked Jul 24 '13 at 7:04
Celeritas
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up vote
7
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What is the origin of the phrase "needle in a hay stack"? Initially I thought it was a game once played but I haven't found any mention of it outside of it's idiomatic use.
etymology idioms
asked Jul 24 '13 at 7:04
Celeritas
1,325173963
I vaguely remember hearing that a needle was a long tool used in haymaking. Very difficult finding origin.
– user92816
Sep 28 '14 at 16:26
@user92816: The hard-to-find origin is hidden in a haystack somewhere.
– Drew
Mar 26 '16 at 2:06
add a comment |
up vote
7
down vote
favorite
up vote
7
down vote
favorite
What is the origin of the phrase "needle in a hay stack"? Initially I thought it was a game once played but I haven't found any mention of it outside of it's idiomatic use.
etymology idioms
asked Jul 24 '13 at 7:04
Celeritas
1,325173963
What is the origin of the phrase "needle in a hay stack"? Initially I thought it was a game once played but I haven't found any mention of it outside of it's idiomatic use.
etymology idioms
etymology idioms
asked Jul 24 '13 at 7:04
Celeritas
1,325173963
asked Jul 24 '13 at 7:04
Celeritas
1,325173963
asked Jul 24 '13 at 7:04
Celeritas
1,325173963
asked Jul 24 '13 at 7:04
Celeritas
1,325173963
asked Jul 24 '13 at 7:04
Celeritas
1,325173963
1,325173963
I vaguely remember hearing that a needle was a long tool used in haymaking. Very difficult finding origin.
– user92816
Sep 28 '14 at 16:26
@user92816: The hard-to-find origin is hidden in a haystack somewhere.
– Drew
Mar 26 '16 at 2:06
add a comment |
I vaguely remember hearing that a needle was a long tool used in haymaking. Very difficult finding origin.
– user92816
Sep 28 '14 at 16:26
@user92816: The hard-to-find origin is hidden in a haystack somewhere.
– Drew
Mar 26 '16 at 2:06
I vaguely remember hearing that a needle was a long tool used in haymaking. Very difficult finding origin.
– user92816
Sep 28 '14 at 16:26
I vaguely remember hearing that a needle was a long tool used in haymaking. Very difficult finding origin.
– user92816
Sep 28 '14 at 16:26
@user92816: The hard-to-find origin is hidden in a haystack somewhere.
– Drew
Mar 26 '16 at 2:06
@user92816: The hard-to-find origin is hidden in a haystack somewhere.
– Drew
Mar 26 '16 at 2:06
add a comment |
8 Answers
8
active
oldest
votes
up vote
12
down vote
accepted
The idiom in full is: "like looking for a needle in a haystack"
it is based on the idea that it is very hard to find a sewing needle in a haystack (a tall pile of dry grass). It means when something is extremely difficult (or impossible) to find.
The first example of this idea in print was in the works of St. Thomas More in 1532:
"To seek out one line in his bookes would be to go look (for) a needle
in a meadow."
Source: Data Hiding: Exposing Concealed Data in Multimedia, Operating Systems, Mobile Devices and Network Protocols; Michael T. Raggo, Chet Hosmer
answered Jul 24 '13 at 8:12
Mari-Lou A
61.2k54214447
This is what the OED has as the earliest citation in English, too.
– Andrew Leach♦
Jul 24 '13 at 8:27
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
It appears that the origin of the phrase goes back to the 1600s. It was first recorded to be used in Don Quixote de la Mancha written from 1605-1615, which was written by Miguel de Cervantes.
I'm quite sure it wasn't a game but was implied something that was almost impossible to achieve even back in those days.
Here's the reference: http://www.businessballs.com/clichesorigins.htm
answered Jul 24 '13 at 7:21
joshnikhil234
372
-1 The article you give as a reference is incorrect on several accounts. Most importantly, it misreads its own source (Bartlett's) as saying that the idiom is from a translation from Don Quixote. But Bartlett's expressly says that the work it references is The Spiritual Don Quixote written in 1772 by Graves. The usage is from that work, not any work of Cervantes.
– Knotell
Apr 20 at 20:08
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Not only is a needle in a haystack nearly impossible to find (without a magnet), but more importantly it is very dangerous for the animals consuming the hay. It is a problem with a dire consequence if the solution is not found. We're talking about having to burn the haystack or let a horse swallow a needle. I think this is closer to the meaning of the phrase.
answered Jul 30 '13 at 18:47
T Chalmers F
311
Do you have any evidence to support your claim that potential danger is any part, let alone the "more important" part, of the common meaning of this phrase?
– Scott
Jan 31 '17 at 19:47
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I found "’tis seeking a needle in a bottle of hay" in the book, The Armourer's Prentices, by Charlotte Mary Yonge, Chapter III, Published
October 1883-August 1884, serialized in The English Illustrated Magazine.
1884, published by Macmillan.
I found this at http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext06/arpn10h.htm
Sarah Meisner
Texas
answered Feb 25 '15 at 4:27
Sarah Meisner
1
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The expression is the same in German and in Italian: cercare un ago in pagliaio http://de.bab.la/woerterbuch/italienisch-deutsch/ago
Perhaps it was already used in Latin.
answered Jul 30 '15 at 10:07
rogermue
11.7k41647
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Needle in a haystack's origin is Arabic. Part of an ancient Arabic proverb.
In doing research into the Arabic language and ancient history, I was surprised to find that many of our modern (last couple of centuries) sayings have their origins in old Arabic proverbs.
Possibly making their way into English and European languages during the Crusades.
Ancient:relating to a remote period, to a time early in history.
answered Mar 25 '16 at 19:16
Michael
11
3
Date? Original proverb? Source? Reference?
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:21
إبرة في كومة قش
– Michael
Mar 25 '16 at 19:24
1
simple.wikiquote.org/wiki/Arabic_proverbs but there is no date, it could be the updated Arabic translation of the modern-day expression
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:28
2
"Ancient" is too generic a term, please edit your answer, add the original Arabic proverb with its translation. History of the sewing needle: sewingmantra.com/index.php/needles/history-of-sewing-needles Thanks.
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:37
add a comment |
up vote
0
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This expression is also found in Portuguese: "procurar uma agulha num palheiro". The fact that it is found in German, Italian and Portuguese as well as English would lead one to suspect that it is very old, indeed. It would be interesting to research other Indo-european languages such as Persian and Urdu to see if that expression is found there.
answered 13 mins ago
Dave Eastman
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When hay was stored in stacks by the farmers many years ago! it was easy for the hay to over heat and spoil, if not dried properly before being stacked. The farmer would use long steel bars, which were called needles, at spaced out intervals along the stack and left there, the farmer could then check, at regular times by pulling the needles out, if the hay was over heating. The problem was was that if the needles position were not marked before being inserted, then it was very difficult to find the needles. I believe that is where the saying originates
answered Jul 30 '15 at 8:25
alan watts
11
1
Welcome to ELU alan. Thank you for this answer, it sounds highly plausible. If you could find and quote any evidence for it it would be even better.
– Avon
Jul 30 '15 at 8:40
2
I am suspicious of your answer. Hay is still stored in stacks. Hay is not dried before being stacked; proper stacking allows the air to circulate through the stack. Wet hay generates a lot of heat when it spoils. Steel bars would do nothing but conduct the heat through the stack. Steel bars would be easy to find. The origins of the phrase predate steel bars. I could be convinced by evidence that this answer isn't misleading. Please provide some.
– deadrat
Jul 30 '15 at 9:58
Hello, thank you for your welcome, i'm afraid i don't have any quotes or evidence to back up my explanation of the meaning. Kim
– alan watts
Aug 4 '15 at 4:09
Thanks for your welcome, when grass is cut it's very important that it's dried properly before it can be stacked as hay, any moisture in it will make it over heat and spoil, hay is compacted when stored, air won't circulate around it. The rods (needles) were inserted into the stack and left there, periodically the farmer would pull them out, check the heat, then push them back in. As a lad i remember seeing them being used
– alan watts
Aug 4 '15 at 5:23
If you observe the other answers you will see that the expression is far older than would be any steel bars. But in response to @deadrat, it is true that in some climates the hay is not immediately stacked but is hung up to dry first. In Norway there are sort of "clotheslines" running through the hayfields to facilitate this.
– Hot Licks
Sep 25 '15 at 12:16
add a comment |
8 Answers
8
active
oldest
votes
8 Answers
8
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
12
down vote
accepted
The idiom in full is: "like looking for a needle in a haystack"
it is based on the idea that it is very hard to find a sewing needle in a haystack (a tall pile of dry grass). It means when something is extremely difficult (or impossible) to find.
The first example of this idea in print was in the works of St. Thomas More in 1532:
"To seek out one line in his bookes would be to go look (for) a needle
in a meadow."
Source: Data Hiding: Exposing Concealed Data in Multimedia, Operating Systems, Mobile Devices and Network Protocols; Michael T. Raggo, Chet Hosmer
answered Jul 24 '13 at 8:12
Mari-Lou A
61.2k54214447
This is what the OED has as the earliest citation in English, too.
– Andrew Leach♦
Jul 24 '13 at 8:27
add a comment |
up vote
12
down vote
accepted
The idiom in full is: "like looking for a needle in a haystack"
it is based on the idea that it is very hard to find a sewing needle in a haystack (a tall pile of dry grass). It means when something is extremely difficult (or impossible) to find.
The first example of this idea in print was in the works of St. Thomas More in 1532:
"To seek out one line in his bookes would be to go look (for) a needle
in a meadow."
Source: Data Hiding: Exposing Concealed Data in Multimedia, Operating Systems, Mobile Devices and Network Protocols; Michael T. Raggo, Chet Hosmer
answered Jul 24 '13 at 8:12
Mari-Lou A
61.2k54214447
This is what the OED has as the earliest citation in English, too.
– Andrew Leach♦
Jul 24 '13 at 8:27
add a comment |
up vote
12
down vote
accepted
up vote
12
down vote
accepted
The idiom in full is: "like looking for a needle in a haystack"
it is based on the idea that it is very hard to find a sewing needle in a haystack (a tall pile of dry grass). It means when something is extremely difficult (or impossible) to find.
The first example of this idea in print was in the works of St. Thomas More in 1532:
"To seek out one line in his bookes would be to go look (for) a needle
in a meadow."
Source: Data Hiding: Exposing Concealed Data in Multimedia, Operating Systems, Mobile Devices and Network Protocols; Michael T. Raggo, Chet Hosmer
answered Jul 24 '13 at 8:12
Mari-Lou A
61.2k54214447
The idiom in full is: "like looking for a needle in a haystack"
it is based on the idea that it is very hard to find a sewing needle in a haystack (a tall pile of dry grass). It means when something is extremely difficult (or impossible) to find.
The first example of this idea in print was in the works of St. Thomas More in 1532:
"To seek out one line in his bookes would be to go look (for) a needle
in a meadow."
Source: Data Hiding: Exposing Concealed Data in Multimedia, Operating Systems, Mobile Devices and Network Protocols; Michael T. Raggo, Chet Hosmer
answered Jul 24 '13 at 8:12
Mari-Lou A
61.2k54214447
answered Jul 24 '13 at 8:12
Mari-Lou A
61.2k54214447
answered Jul 24 '13 at 8:12
Mari-Lou A
61.2k54214447
answered Jul 24 '13 at 8:12
Mari-Lou A
61.2k54214447
61.2k54214447
This is what the OED has as the earliest citation in English, too.
– Andrew Leach♦
Jul 24 '13 at 8:27
add a comment |
This is what the OED has as the earliest citation in English, too.
– Andrew Leach♦
Jul 24 '13 at 8:27
This is what the OED has as the earliest citation in English, too.
– Andrew Leach♦
Jul 24 '13 at 8:27
This is what the OED has as the earliest citation in English, too.
– Andrew Leach♦
Jul 24 '13 at 8:27
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
It appears that the origin of the phrase goes back to the 1600s. It was first recorded to be used in Don Quixote de la Mancha written from 1605-1615, which was written by Miguel de Cervantes.
I'm quite sure it wasn't a game but was implied something that was almost impossible to achieve even back in those days.
Here's the reference: http://www.businessballs.com/clichesorigins.htm
answered Jul 24 '13 at 7:21
joshnikhil234
372
-1 The article you give as a reference is incorrect on several accounts. Most importantly, it misreads its own source (Bartlett's) as saying that the idiom is from a translation from Don Quixote. But Bartlett's expressly says that the work it references is The Spiritual Don Quixote written in 1772 by Graves. The usage is from that work, not any work of Cervantes.
– Knotell
Apr 20 at 20:08
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
It appears that the origin of the phrase goes back to the 1600s. It was first recorded to be used in Don Quixote de la Mancha written from 1605-1615, which was written by Miguel de Cervantes.
I'm quite sure it wasn't a game but was implied something that was almost impossible to achieve even back in those days.
Here's the reference: http://www.businessballs.com/clichesorigins.htm
answered Jul 24 '13 at 7:21
joshnikhil234
372
-1 The article you give as a reference is incorrect on several accounts. Most importantly, it misreads its own source (Bartlett's) as saying that the idiom is from a translation from Don Quixote. But Bartlett's expressly says that the work it references is The Spiritual Don Quixote written in 1772 by Graves. The usage is from that work, not any work of Cervantes.
– Knotell
Apr 20 at 20:08
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
It appears that the origin of the phrase goes back to the 1600s. It was first recorded to be used in Don Quixote de la Mancha written from 1605-1615, which was written by Miguel de Cervantes.
I'm quite sure it wasn't a game but was implied something that was almost impossible to achieve even back in those days.
Here's the reference: http://www.businessballs.com/clichesorigins.htm
answered Jul 24 '13 at 7:21
joshnikhil234
372
It appears that the origin of the phrase goes back to the 1600s. It was first recorded to be used in Don Quixote de la Mancha written from 1605-1615, which was written by Miguel de Cervantes.
I'm quite sure it wasn't a game but was implied something that was almost impossible to achieve even back in those days.
Here's the reference: http://www.businessballs.com/clichesorigins.htm
answered Jul 24 '13 at 7:21
joshnikhil234
372
answered Jul 24 '13 at 7:21
joshnikhil234
372
answered Jul 24 '13 at 7:21
joshnikhil234
372
answered Jul 24 '13 at 7:21
joshnikhil234
372
372
-1 The article you give as a reference is incorrect on several accounts. Most importantly, it misreads its own source (Bartlett's) as saying that the idiom is from a translation from Don Quixote. But Bartlett's expressly says that the work it references is The Spiritual Don Quixote written in 1772 by Graves. The usage is from that work, not any work of Cervantes.
– Knotell
Apr 20 at 20:08
add a comment |
-1 The article you give as a reference is incorrect on several accounts. Most importantly, it misreads its own source (Bartlett's) as saying that the idiom is from a translation from Don Quixote. But Bartlett's expressly says that the work it references is The Spiritual Don Quixote written in 1772 by Graves. The usage is from that work, not any work of Cervantes.
– Knotell
Apr 20 at 20:08
-1 The article you give as a reference is incorrect on several accounts. Most importantly, it misreads its own source (Bartlett's) as saying that the idiom is from a translation from Don Quixote. But Bartlett's expressly says that the work it references is The Spiritual Don Quixote written in 1772 by Graves. The usage is from that work, not any work of Cervantes.
– Knotell
Apr 20 at 20:08
-1 The article you give as a reference is incorrect on several accounts. Most importantly, it misreads its own source (Bartlett's) as saying that the idiom is from a translation from Don Quixote. But Bartlett's expressly says that the work it references is The Spiritual Don Quixote written in 1772 by Graves. The usage is from that work, not any work of Cervantes.
– Knotell
Apr 20 at 20:08
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Not only is a needle in a haystack nearly impossible to find (without a magnet), but more importantly it is very dangerous for the animals consuming the hay. It is a problem with a dire consequence if the solution is not found. We're talking about having to burn the haystack or let a horse swallow a needle. I think this is closer to the meaning of the phrase.
answered Jul 30 '13 at 18:47
T Chalmers F
311
Do you have any evidence to support your claim that potential danger is any part, let alone the "more important" part, of the common meaning of this phrase?
– Scott
Jan 31 '17 at 19:47
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Not only is a needle in a haystack nearly impossible to find (without a magnet), but more importantly it is very dangerous for the animals consuming the hay. It is a problem with a dire consequence if the solution is not found. We're talking about having to burn the haystack or let a horse swallow a needle. I think this is closer to the meaning of the phrase.
answered Jul 30 '13 at 18:47
T Chalmers F
311
Do you have any evidence to support your claim that potential danger is any part, let alone the "more important" part, of the common meaning of this phrase?
– Scott
Jan 31 '17 at 19:47
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Not only is a needle in a haystack nearly impossible to find (without a magnet), but more importantly it is very dangerous for the animals consuming the hay. It is a problem with a dire consequence if the solution is not found. We're talking about having to burn the haystack or let a horse swallow a needle. I think this is closer to the meaning of the phrase.
answered Jul 30 '13 at 18:47
T Chalmers F
311
Not only is a needle in a haystack nearly impossible to find (without a magnet), but more importantly it is very dangerous for the animals consuming the hay. It is a problem with a dire consequence if the solution is not found. We're talking about having to burn the haystack or let a horse swallow a needle. I think this is closer to the meaning of the phrase.
answered Jul 30 '13 at 18:47
T Chalmers F
311
answered Jul 30 '13 at 18:47
T Chalmers F
311
answered Jul 30 '13 at 18:47
T Chalmers F
311
answered Jul 30 '13 at 18:47
T Chalmers F
311
311
Do you have any evidence to support your claim that potential danger is any part, let alone the "more important" part, of the common meaning of this phrase?
– Scott
Jan 31 '17 at 19:47
add a comment |
Do you have any evidence to support your claim that potential danger is any part, let alone the "more important" part, of the common meaning of this phrase?
– Scott
Jan 31 '17 at 19:47
Do you have any evidence to support your claim that potential danger is any part, let alone the "more important" part, of the common meaning of this phrase?
– Scott
Jan 31 '17 at 19:47
Do you have any evidence to support your claim that potential danger is any part, let alone the "more important" part, of the common meaning of this phrase?
– Scott
Jan 31 '17 at 19:47
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I found "’tis seeking a needle in a bottle of hay" in the book, The Armourer's Prentices, by Charlotte Mary Yonge, Chapter III, Published
October 1883-August 1884, serialized in The English Illustrated Magazine.
1884, published by Macmillan.
I found this at http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext06/arpn10h.htm
Sarah Meisner
Texas
answered Feb 25 '15 at 4:27
Sarah Meisner
1
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I found "’tis seeking a needle in a bottle of hay" in the book, The Armourer's Prentices, by Charlotte Mary Yonge, Chapter III, Published
October 1883-August 1884, serialized in The English Illustrated Magazine.
1884, published by Macmillan.
I found this at http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext06/arpn10h.htm
Sarah Meisner
Texas
answered Feb 25 '15 at 4:27
Sarah Meisner
1
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
I found "’tis seeking a needle in a bottle of hay" in the book, The Armourer's Prentices, by Charlotte Mary Yonge, Chapter III, Published
October 1883-August 1884, serialized in The English Illustrated Magazine.
1884, published by Macmillan.
I found this at http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext06/arpn10h.htm
Sarah Meisner
Texas
answered Feb 25 '15 at 4:27
Sarah Meisner
1
I found "’tis seeking a needle in a bottle of hay" in the book, The Armourer's Prentices, by Charlotte Mary Yonge, Chapter III, Published
October 1883-August 1884, serialized in The English Illustrated Magazine.
1884, published by Macmillan.
I found this at http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext06/arpn10h.htm
Sarah Meisner
Texas
answered Feb 25 '15 at 4:27
Sarah Meisner
1
answered Feb 25 '15 at 4:27
Sarah Meisner
1
answered Feb 25 '15 at 4:27
Sarah Meisner
1
answered Feb 25 '15 at 4:27
Sarah Meisner
1
1
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
The expression is the same in German and in Italian: cercare un ago in pagliaio http://de.bab.la/woerterbuch/italienisch-deutsch/ago
Perhaps it was already used in Latin.
answered Jul 30 '15 at 10:07
rogermue
11.7k41647
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
The expression is the same in German and in Italian: cercare un ago in pagliaio http://de.bab.la/woerterbuch/italienisch-deutsch/ago
Perhaps it was already used in Latin.
answered Jul 30 '15 at 10:07
rogermue
11.7k41647
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
The expression is the same in German and in Italian: cercare un ago in pagliaio http://de.bab.la/woerterbuch/italienisch-deutsch/ago
Perhaps it was already used in Latin.
answered Jul 30 '15 at 10:07
rogermue
11.7k41647
The expression is the same in German and in Italian: cercare un ago in pagliaio http://de.bab.la/woerterbuch/italienisch-deutsch/ago
Perhaps it was already used in Latin.
answered Jul 30 '15 at 10:07
rogermue
11.7k41647
answered Jul 30 '15 at 10:07
rogermue
11.7k41647
answered Jul 30 '15 at 10:07
rogermue
11.7k41647
answered Jul 30 '15 at 10:07
rogermue
11.7k41647
11.7k41647
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
Needle in a haystack's origin is Arabic. Part of an ancient Arabic proverb.
In doing research into the Arabic language and ancient history, I was surprised to find that many of our modern (last couple of centuries) sayings have their origins in old Arabic proverbs.
Possibly making their way into English and European languages during the Crusades.
Ancient:relating to a remote period, to a time early in history.
answered Mar 25 '16 at 19:16
Michael
11
3
Date? Original proverb? Source? Reference?
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:21
إبرة في كومة قش
– Michael
Mar 25 '16 at 19:24
1
simple.wikiquote.org/wiki/Arabic_proverbs but there is no date, it could be the updated Arabic translation of the modern-day expression
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:28
2
"Ancient" is too generic a term, please edit your answer, add the original Arabic proverb with its translation. History of the sewing needle: sewingmantra.com/index.php/needles/history-of-sewing-needles Thanks.
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:37
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
Needle in a haystack's origin is Arabic. Part of an ancient Arabic proverb.
In doing research into the Arabic language and ancient history, I was surprised to find that many of our modern (last couple of centuries) sayings have their origins in old Arabic proverbs.
Possibly making their way into English and European languages during the Crusades.
Ancient:relating to a remote period, to a time early in history.
answered Mar 25 '16 at 19:16
Michael
11
3
Date? Original proverb? Source? Reference?
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:21
إبرة في كومة قش
– Michael
Mar 25 '16 at 19:24
1
simple.wikiquote.org/wiki/Arabic_proverbs but there is no date, it could be the updated Arabic translation of the modern-day expression
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:28
2
"Ancient" is too generic a term, please edit your answer, add the original Arabic proverb with its translation. History of the sewing needle: sewingmantra.com/index.php/needles/history-of-sewing-needles Thanks.
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:37
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
Needle in a haystack's origin is Arabic. Part of an ancient Arabic proverb.
In doing research into the Arabic language and ancient history, I was surprised to find that many of our modern (last couple of centuries) sayings have their origins in old Arabic proverbs.
Possibly making their way into English and European languages during the Crusades.
Ancient:relating to a remote period, to a time early in history.
answered Mar 25 '16 at 19:16
Michael
11
Needle in a haystack's origin is Arabic. Part of an ancient Arabic proverb.
In doing research into the Arabic language and ancient history, I was surprised to find that many of our modern (last couple of centuries) sayings have their origins in old Arabic proverbs.
Possibly making their way into English and European languages during the Crusades.
Ancient:relating to a remote period, to a time early in history.
answered Mar 25 '16 at 19:16
Michael
11
edited Mar 25 '16 at 19:32
answered Mar 25 '16 at 19:16
Michael
11
answered Mar 25 '16 at 19:16
Michael
11
answered Mar 25 '16 at 19:16
Michael
11
11
3
Date? Original proverb? Source? Reference?
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:21
إبرة في كومة قش
– Michael
Mar 25 '16 at 19:24
1
simple.wikiquote.org/wiki/Arabic_proverbs but there is no date, it could be the updated Arabic translation of the modern-day expression
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:28
2
"Ancient" is too generic a term, please edit your answer, add the original Arabic proverb with its translation. History of the sewing needle: sewingmantra.com/index.php/needles/history-of-sewing-needles Thanks.
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:37
add a comment |
3
Date? Original proverb? Source? Reference?
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:21
إبرة في كومة قش
– Michael
Mar 25 '16 at 19:24
1
simple.wikiquote.org/wiki/Arabic_proverbs but there is no date, it could be the updated Arabic translation of the modern-day expression
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:28
2
"Ancient" is too generic a term, please edit your answer, add the original Arabic proverb with its translation. History of the sewing needle: sewingmantra.com/index.php/needles/history-of-sewing-needles Thanks.
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:37
3
3
Date? Original proverb? Source? Reference?
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:21
Date? Original proverb? Source? Reference?
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:21
إبرة في كومة قش
– Michael
Mar 25 '16 at 19:24
إبرة في كومة قش
– Michael
Mar 25 '16 at 19:24
1
1
simple.wikiquote.org/wiki/Arabic_proverbs but there is no date, it could be the updated Arabic translation of the modern-day expression
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:28
simple.wikiquote.org/wiki/Arabic_proverbs but there is no date, it could be the updated Arabic translation of the modern-day expression
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:28
2
2
"Ancient" is too generic a term, please edit your answer, add the original Arabic proverb with its translation. History of the sewing needle: sewingmantra.com/index.php/needles/history-of-sewing-needles Thanks.
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:37
"Ancient" is too generic a term, please edit your answer, add the original Arabic proverb with its translation. History of the sewing needle: sewingmantra.com/index.php/needles/history-of-sewing-needles Thanks.
– Mari-Lou A
Mar 25 '16 at 19:37
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
This expression is also found in Portuguese: "procurar uma agulha num palheiro". The fact that it is found in German, Italian and Portuguese as well as English would lead one to suspect that it is very old, indeed. It would be interesting to research other Indo-european languages such as Persian and Urdu to see if that expression is found there.
answered 13 mins ago
Dave Eastman
1
New contributor
Dave Eastman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
This expression is also found in Portuguese: "procurar uma agulha num palheiro". The fact that it is found in German, Italian and Portuguese as well as English would lead one to suspect that it is very old, indeed. It would be interesting to research other Indo-european languages such as Persian and Urdu to see if that expression is found there.
answered 13 mins ago
Dave Eastman
1
New contributor
Dave Eastman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
This expression is also found in Portuguese: "procurar uma agulha num palheiro". The fact that it is found in German, Italian and Portuguese as well as English would lead one to suspect that it is very old, indeed. It would be interesting to research other Indo-european languages such as Persian and Urdu to see if that expression is found there.
answered 13 mins ago
Dave Eastman
1
New contributor
Dave Eastman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
This expression is also found in Portuguese: "procurar uma agulha num palheiro". The fact that it is found in German, Italian and Portuguese as well as English would lead one to suspect that it is very old, indeed. It would be interesting to research other Indo-european languages such as Persian and Urdu to see if that expression is found there.
answered 13 mins ago
Dave Eastman
1
New contributor
Dave Eastman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 13 mins ago
Dave Eastman
1
New contributor
Dave Eastman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 13 mins ago
Dave Eastman
1
answered 13 mins ago
Dave Eastman
1
1
New contributor
Dave Eastman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Dave Eastman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Dave Eastman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
When hay was stored in stacks by the farmers many years ago! it was easy for the hay to over heat and spoil, if not dried properly before being stacked. The farmer would use long steel bars, which were called needles, at spaced out intervals along the stack and left there, the farmer could then check, at regular times by pulling the needles out, if the hay was over heating. The problem was was that if the needles position were not marked before being inserted, then it was very difficult to find the needles. I believe that is where the saying originates
answered Jul 30 '15 at 8:25
alan watts
11
1
Welcome to ELU alan. Thank you for this answer, it sounds highly plausible. If you could find and quote any evidence for it it would be even better.
– Avon
Jul 30 '15 at 8:40
2
I am suspicious of your answer. Hay is still stored in stacks. Hay is not dried before being stacked; proper stacking allows the air to circulate through the stack. Wet hay generates a lot of heat when it spoils. Steel bars would do nothing but conduct the heat through the stack. Steel bars would be easy to find. The origins of the phrase predate steel bars. I could be convinced by evidence that this answer isn't misleading. Please provide some.
– deadrat
Jul 30 '15 at 9:58
Hello, thank you for your welcome, i'm afraid i don't have any quotes or evidence to back up my explanation of the meaning. Kim
– alan watts
Aug 4 '15 at 4:09
Thanks for your welcome, when grass is cut it's very important that it's dried properly before it can be stacked as hay, any moisture in it will make it over heat and spoil, hay is compacted when stored, air won't circulate around it. The rods (needles) were inserted into the stack and left there, periodically the farmer would pull them out, check the heat, then push them back in. As a lad i remember seeing them being used
– alan watts
Aug 4 '15 at 5:23
If you observe the other answers you will see that the expression is far older than would be any steel bars. But in response to @deadrat, it is true that in some climates the hay is not immediately stacked but is hung up to dry first. In Norway there are sort of "clotheslines" running through the hayfields to facilitate this.
– Hot Licks
Sep 25 '15 at 12:16
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
When hay was stored in stacks by the farmers many years ago! it was easy for the hay to over heat and spoil, if not dried properly before being stacked. The farmer would use long steel bars, which were called needles, at spaced out intervals along the stack and left there, the farmer could then check, at regular times by pulling the needles out, if the hay was over heating. The problem was was that if the needles position were not marked before being inserted, then it was very difficult to find the needles. I believe that is where the saying originates
answered Jul 30 '15 at 8:25
alan watts
11
1
Welcome to ELU alan. Thank you for this answer, it sounds highly plausible. If you could find and quote any evidence for it it would be even better.
– Avon
Jul 30 '15 at 8:40
2
I am suspicious of your answer. Hay is still stored in stacks. Hay is not dried before being stacked; proper stacking allows the air to circulate through the stack. Wet hay generates a lot of heat when it spoils. Steel bars would do nothing but conduct the heat through the stack. Steel bars would be easy to find. The origins of the phrase predate steel bars. I could be convinced by evidence that this answer isn't misleading. Please provide some.
– deadrat
Jul 30 '15 at 9:58
Hello, thank you for your welcome, i'm afraid i don't have any quotes or evidence to back up my explanation of the meaning. Kim
– alan watts
Aug 4 '15 at 4:09
Thanks for your welcome, when grass is cut it's very important that it's dried properly before it can be stacked as hay, any moisture in it will make it over heat and spoil, hay is compacted when stored, air won't circulate around it. The rods (needles) were inserted into the stack and left there, periodically the farmer would pull them out, check the heat, then push them back in. As a lad i remember seeing them being used
– alan watts
Aug 4 '15 at 5:23
If you observe the other answers you will see that the expression is far older than would be any steel bars. But in response to @deadrat, it is true that in some climates the hay is not immediately stacked but is hung up to dry first. In Norway there are sort of "clotheslines" running through the hayfields to facilitate this.
– Hot Licks
Sep 25 '15 at 12:16
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
up vote
-1
down vote
When hay was stored in stacks by the farmers many years ago! it was easy for the hay to over heat and spoil, if not dried properly before being stacked. The farmer would use long steel bars, which were called needles, at spaced out intervals along the stack and left there, the farmer could then check, at regular times by pulling the needles out, if the hay was over heating. The problem was was that if the needles position were not marked before being inserted, then it was very difficult to find the needles. I believe that is where the saying originates
answered Jul 30 '15 at 8:25
alan watts
11
When hay was stored in stacks by the farmers many years ago! it was easy for the hay to over heat and spoil, if not dried properly before being stacked. The farmer would use long steel bars, which were called needles, at spaced out intervals along the stack and left there, the farmer could then check, at regular times by pulling the needles out, if the hay was over heating. The problem was was that if the needles position were not marked before being inserted, then it was very difficult to find the needles. I believe that is where the saying originates
answered Jul 30 '15 at 8:25
alan watts
11
answered Jul 30 '15 at 8:25
alan watts
11
answered Jul 30 '15 at 8:25
alan watts
11
answered Jul 30 '15 at 8:25
alan watts
11
11
1
Welcome to ELU alan. Thank you for this answer, it sounds highly plausible. If you could find and quote any evidence for it it would be even better.
– Avon
Jul 30 '15 at 8:40
2
I am suspicious of your answer. Hay is still stored in stacks. Hay is not dried before being stacked; proper stacking allows the air to circulate through the stack. Wet hay generates a lot of heat when it spoils. Steel bars would do nothing but conduct the heat through the stack. Steel bars would be easy to find. The origins of the phrase predate steel bars. I could be convinced by evidence that this answer isn't misleading. Please provide some.
– deadrat
Jul 30 '15 at 9:58
Hello, thank you for your welcome, i'm afraid i don't have any quotes or evidence to back up my explanation of the meaning. Kim
– alan watts
Aug 4 '15 at 4:09
Thanks for your welcome, when grass is cut it's very important that it's dried properly before it can be stacked as hay, any moisture in it will make it over heat and spoil, hay is compacted when stored, air won't circulate around it. The rods (needles) were inserted into the stack and left there, periodically the farmer would pull them out, check the heat, then push them back in. As a lad i remember seeing them being used
– alan watts
Aug 4 '15 at 5:23
If you observe the other answers you will see that the expression is far older than would be any steel bars. But in response to @deadrat, it is true that in some climates the hay is not immediately stacked but is hung up to dry first. In Norway there are sort of "clotheslines" running through the hayfields to facilitate this.
– Hot Licks
Sep 25 '15 at 12:16
add a comment |
1
Welcome to ELU alan. Thank you for this answer, it sounds highly plausible. If you could find and quote any evidence for it it would be even better.
– Avon
Jul 30 '15 at 8:40
2
I am suspicious of your answer. Hay is still stored in stacks. Hay is not dried before being stacked; proper stacking allows the air to circulate through the stack. Wet hay generates a lot of heat when it spoils. Steel bars would do nothing but conduct the heat through the stack. Steel bars would be easy to find. The origins of the phrase predate steel bars. I could be convinced by evidence that this answer isn't misleading. Please provide some.
– deadrat
Jul 30 '15 at 9:58
Hello, thank you for your welcome, i'm afraid i don't have any quotes or evidence to back up my explanation of the meaning. Kim
– alan watts
Aug 4 '15 at 4:09
Thanks for your welcome, when grass is cut it's very important that it's dried properly before it can be stacked as hay, any moisture in it will make it over heat and spoil, hay is compacted when stored, air won't circulate around it. The rods (needles) were inserted into the stack and left there, periodically the farmer would pull them out, check the heat, then push them back in. As a lad i remember seeing them being used
– alan watts
Aug 4 '15 at 5:23
If you observe the other answers you will see that the expression is far older than would be any steel bars. But in response to @deadrat, it is true that in some climates the hay is not immediately stacked but is hung up to dry first. In Norway there are sort of "clotheslines" running through the hayfields to facilitate this.
– Hot Licks
Sep 25 '15 at 12:16
1
1
Welcome to ELU alan. Thank you for this answer, it sounds highly plausible. If you could find and quote any evidence for it it would be even better.
– Avon
Jul 30 '15 at 8:40
Welcome to ELU alan. Thank you for this answer, it sounds highly plausible. If you could find and quote any evidence for it it would be even better.
– Avon
Jul 30 '15 at 8:40
2
2
I am suspicious of your answer. Hay is still stored in stacks. Hay is not dried before being stacked; proper stacking allows the air to circulate through the stack. Wet hay generates a lot of heat when it spoils. Steel bars would do nothing but conduct the heat through the stack. Steel bars would be easy to find. The origins of the phrase predate steel bars. I could be convinced by evidence that this answer isn't misleading. Please provide some.
– deadrat
Jul 30 '15 at 9:58
I am suspicious of your answer. Hay is still stored in stacks. Hay is not dried before being stacked; proper stacking allows the air to circulate through the stack. Wet hay generates a lot of heat when it spoils. Steel bars would do nothing but conduct the heat through the stack. Steel bars would be easy to find. The origins of the phrase predate steel bars. I could be convinced by evidence that this answer isn't misleading. Please provide some.
– deadrat
Jul 30 '15 at 9:58
Hello, thank you for your welcome, i'm afraid i don't have any quotes or evidence to back up my explanation of the meaning. Kim
– alan watts
Aug 4 '15 at 4:09
Hello, thank you for your welcome, i'm afraid i don't have any quotes or evidence to back up my explanation of the meaning. Kim
– alan watts
Aug 4 '15 at 4:09
Thanks for your welcome, when grass is cut it's very important that it's dried properly before it can be stacked as hay, any moisture in it will make it over heat and spoil, hay is compacted when stored, air won't circulate around it. The rods (needles) were inserted into the stack and left there, periodically the farmer would pull them out, check the heat, then push them back in. As a lad i remember seeing them being used
– alan watts
Aug 4 '15 at 5:23
Thanks for your welcome, when grass is cut it's very important that it's dried properly before it can be stacked as hay, any moisture in it will make it over heat and spoil, hay is compacted when stored, air won't circulate around it. The rods (needles) were inserted into the stack and left there, periodically the farmer would pull them out, check the heat, then push them back in. As a lad i remember seeing them being used
– alan watts
Aug 4 '15 at 5:23
If you observe the other answers you will see that the expression is far older than would be any steel bars. But in response to @deadrat, it is true that in some climates the hay is not immediately stacked but is hung up to dry first. In Norway there are sort of "clotheslines" running through the hayfields to facilitate this.
– Hot Licks
Sep 25 '15 at 12:16
If you observe the other answers you will see that the expression is far older than would be any steel bars. But in response to @deadrat, it is true that in some climates the hay is not immediately stacked but is hung up to dry first. In Norway there are sort of "clotheslines" running through the hayfields to facilitate this.
– Hot Licks
Sep 25 '15 at 12:16
add a comment |
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I vaguely remember hearing that a needle was a long tool used in haymaking. Very difficult finding origin.
– user92816
Sep 28 '14 at 16:26
@user92816: The hard-to-find origin is hidden in a haystack somewhere.
– Drew
Mar 26 '16 at 2:06