Regression vs Random Forest - Combination of features












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$begingroup$


I had a discussion with a friend and we were talking about the advantages of random forest over linear regression.



At some point, my friend said that one of the advantages of the random forest over the linear regression is that it takes automatically into account the combination of features.



By this he meant that if I have a model with




  • Y as a target

  • X, W, Z as the predictors


then the random forests tests also the combinations of the features (e.g. X+W) whereas in linear regression you have to build these manually and insert them at the model.



I am quite confused, is this true?



Also if it true then is it about any kind of combination of features (e.g. X*W, X+W+Z etc) or only for some specific ones (e.g. X+W)?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$

















    4












    $begingroup$


    I had a discussion with a friend and we were talking about the advantages of random forest over linear regression.



    At some point, my friend said that one of the advantages of the random forest over the linear regression is that it takes automatically into account the combination of features.



    By this he meant that if I have a model with




    • Y as a target

    • X, W, Z as the predictors


    then the random forests tests also the combinations of the features (e.g. X+W) whereas in linear regression you have to build these manually and insert them at the model.



    I am quite confused, is this true?



    Also if it true then is it about any kind of combination of features (e.g. X*W, X+W+Z etc) or only for some specific ones (e.g. X+W)?










    share|improve this question











    $endgroup$















      4












      4








      4


      1



      $begingroup$


      I had a discussion with a friend and we were talking about the advantages of random forest over linear regression.



      At some point, my friend said that one of the advantages of the random forest over the linear regression is that it takes automatically into account the combination of features.



      By this he meant that if I have a model with




      • Y as a target

      • X, W, Z as the predictors


      then the random forests tests also the combinations of the features (e.g. X+W) whereas in linear regression you have to build these manually and insert them at the model.



      I am quite confused, is this true?



      Also if it true then is it about any kind of combination of features (e.g. X*W, X+W+Z etc) or only for some specific ones (e.g. X+W)?










      share|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      I had a discussion with a friend and we were talking about the advantages of random forest over linear regression.



      At some point, my friend said that one of the advantages of the random forest over the linear regression is that it takes automatically into account the combination of features.



      By this he meant that if I have a model with




      • Y as a target

      • X, W, Z as the predictors


      then the random forests tests also the combinations of the features (e.g. X+W) whereas in linear regression you have to build these manually and insert them at the model.



      I am quite confused, is this true?



      Also if it true then is it about any kind of combination of features (e.g. X*W, X+W+Z etc) or only for some specific ones (e.g. X+W)?







      feature-selection random-forest feature-engineering






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 2 days ago







      Poete Maudit

















      asked Mar 31 at 14:28









      Poete MauditPoete Maudit

      411315




      411315






















          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          3












          $begingroup$

          I think it is true. Tree based algorithms especially the ones with multiple trees has the capability of capturing different feature interactions. Please see this article from xgboost official documentation and this discussion. You can say it's a perk of being a non parametric model (trees are non parametric and linear regression is not). I hope this will shed some light on this thought.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            (+1) As an example,Tree 1 works with features (A, B) and gives 80% accuracy, Tree 2 works with features (C, D) and gives 60%. A boosting algorithm puts more weight on Tree 1, thus effectively favors f(A, B) over g(C, D).
            $endgroup$
            – Esmailian
            Mar 31 at 19:14












          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for your answer. However, to be honest I would like a more in depth answer. To start with, my second question is still unanswered I think: "Also if it true then is it about any kind of combination of features (e.g. X*W, X+W+Z etc) or only for some specific ones (e.g. X+W)?"
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Please refer this link ( mariofilho.com/can-gradient-boosting-learn-simple-arithmetic ) . This article talks about how boosting trees can model arithmetic operations like X*W, X/W, etc. Theoretically, it is possible. Trees are like neural networks, they are universal approximator (Theoretically). And I am stressing on the word Theoretically.
            $endgroup$
            – tam
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Ok thank you for this too. However, to start with both the other people here are claiming the opposite than you so it is quite difficult for me to draw a definite conclusion.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Also by the way at your answer you are saying "... has the capability of capturing different feature interactions". However, my question is whether is built-in in random forest (or in boosting algos). In a sense, linear regression also has the "capability" of doing this but exactly you will have to programme it i.e. add some lines of code where you are adding, multiplying some of the features etc.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago



















          1












          $begingroup$

          I would say it is not true as Random forests which are made up of decision trees does perform feature selection but they do not perform feature engineering (feature selection is different from feature engineering). Decision trees use a metric called Information gain (which is total entropy minus the weighted entropy) as per which useful features are separated from bad features. Simply to say whichever feature exhibit the highest information gain on this iteration is chosen as the node on which the tree on this iteration is split or you can say which feature reduces the entropy(aka randomness) the most in this iteration is chosen as the node upon which the tree is split on this iteration. So if you data is text, trees are split upon words. If your data is real valued numbers, tree is split upon that. Hope it helps



          For more details check this






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for your answer. However, to be honest I would like a more in depth answer. To start with, my second question is still unanswered I think: "Also if it true then is it about any kind of combination of features (e.g. X*W, X+W+Z etc) or only for some specific ones (e.g. X+W)?"
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Yes as said in my previous answer, decision trees cannot perform feature engineering by themselves. They pick the right feature based on information gain which is called as the feature selection. So (X+W), (X*W) or any sort of simple or complex feature engineered features are not possible in case of tree based models. So answer to your second question is "No, Tree based methods cannot and will not perform feature engineering on their own". Hope it's clear
            $endgroup$
            – karthikeyan mg
            2 days ago












          • $begingroup$
            Now it is significantly clearer because your starting phrase "I would say it is partly true as Random forests..." confuses things a bit. So basically at my question your answer is "no it is not true; random forest does not take into account the combination of features e.g. X+W etc". It would be good to modify a bit your post because this is not evident.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            However, I will have to see some evidence on why the boosting algorithms do this while the bagging algorithms do not. Also, in the case of the boosting algorithms how the algorithm chooses which of the various combinations to test?
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Thanks for the suggestion, I've made the changes. And regarding your last comment, just to be clear, random forests comes under bagging algos and gbdt, xgboost comes under boosting. I'd suggest you draft another question explaining your last comment in detail along with your thoughts and understanding and link the question here, We will try our best to help you! Cheers
            $endgroup$
            – karthikeyan mg
            2 days ago



















          0












          $begingroup$

          No, it is not true.



          In Random Forest (or Decision Tree, or Regression Tree), individual features are compared to each other, not a combination of them, then the most informative individual is peaked to split a node. Therefore, there is no notion of "better combination" in the whole process.



          Furthermore, Random Forest is a bagging algorithm which does not favor the randomly-built trees (or their sub-trees) over each other, they all have the same weight in the aggregated output.



          It is worth noting that "Rotation forest" first applies PCA to features, which means each new feature is a linear combination of original features. However, this does not count since the same pre-processing can be used for any other method too.



          Here is a quote from this wiki page for more details:




          A decision tree is a flow-chart-like structure, where each internal
          (non-leaf) node denotes a test on an attribute.




          EDIT:



          @tam provided a nice counter-example for XGBoost, which is not the same as Random Forest. That is, tree boosting algorithms have a notion of "better combination" that, for example, favors (in regression) $f(X, Y, W)=X*Y+text{exp}(X+Y) + 0 times W$ over $g(X, Y, W)=0 times X + Y+W$ by placing more weight on $f$. Note that a sub-tree, or a complete tree represents a function $f(boldsymbol{X}=(X,Y,Z,...))$ over a specific region $R subset ({Bbb X}, {Bbb Y}, {Bbb Z},...)$ in the feature space.



          In XGBoost, without going into details, more weight is put on a function that leads to more decrease in the overall error, loosely similar to AdaBoost algorithm (XGBoost in more detail, Adaboost vs XGBoost). This is equivalent to favoring a complicated-combination-of-features over another one.



          Note that, a tree can approximate any continuous function $f$ over training points, since it is a universal approximator just like neural networks.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for your answer. My post triggered some opposing views and now in this sense I do not know yet which side to take. By the way, my impression is that the remark of @tam is not really directly to the point. The fact that tree boosting algorithms favor f(X, Y) over g(Y, W) does not necessarily mean that they take into account the combination of the features in the sense of e.g. X+W but they simply favor groups of features over other groups of features. Thus, not combination of features but groups of features (if I am not missing anything).
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            @PoeteMaudit I added an example.
            $endgroup$
            – Esmailian
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Cool, thank you. However, I will have to see some evidence on why the boosting algorithms do this while the bagging algorithms do not. Also, in the case of the boosting algorithms how the algorithm chooses which of the various combinations to test?
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            So your answer to my question is that "Note that, a tree can approximate any continuous function f over training points, since it is a universal approximator just like neural networks."? If so then this is interesting.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago












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          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes








          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          3












          $begingroup$

          I think it is true. Tree based algorithms especially the ones with multiple trees has the capability of capturing different feature interactions. Please see this article from xgboost official documentation and this discussion. You can say it's a perk of being a non parametric model (trees are non parametric and linear regression is not). I hope this will shed some light on this thought.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            (+1) As an example,Tree 1 works with features (A, B) and gives 80% accuracy, Tree 2 works with features (C, D) and gives 60%. A boosting algorithm puts more weight on Tree 1, thus effectively favors f(A, B) over g(C, D).
            $endgroup$
            – Esmailian
            Mar 31 at 19:14












          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for your answer. However, to be honest I would like a more in depth answer. To start with, my second question is still unanswered I think: "Also if it true then is it about any kind of combination of features (e.g. X*W, X+W+Z etc) or only for some specific ones (e.g. X+W)?"
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Please refer this link ( mariofilho.com/can-gradient-boosting-learn-simple-arithmetic ) . This article talks about how boosting trees can model arithmetic operations like X*W, X/W, etc. Theoretically, it is possible. Trees are like neural networks, they are universal approximator (Theoretically). And I am stressing on the word Theoretically.
            $endgroup$
            – tam
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Ok thank you for this too. However, to start with both the other people here are claiming the opposite than you so it is quite difficult for me to draw a definite conclusion.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Also by the way at your answer you are saying "... has the capability of capturing different feature interactions". However, my question is whether is built-in in random forest (or in boosting algos). In a sense, linear regression also has the "capability" of doing this but exactly you will have to programme it i.e. add some lines of code where you are adding, multiplying some of the features etc.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago
















          3












          $begingroup$

          I think it is true. Tree based algorithms especially the ones with multiple trees has the capability of capturing different feature interactions. Please see this article from xgboost official documentation and this discussion. You can say it's a perk of being a non parametric model (trees are non parametric and linear regression is not). I hope this will shed some light on this thought.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            (+1) As an example,Tree 1 works with features (A, B) and gives 80% accuracy, Tree 2 works with features (C, D) and gives 60%. A boosting algorithm puts more weight on Tree 1, thus effectively favors f(A, B) over g(C, D).
            $endgroup$
            – Esmailian
            Mar 31 at 19:14












          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for your answer. However, to be honest I would like a more in depth answer. To start with, my second question is still unanswered I think: "Also if it true then is it about any kind of combination of features (e.g. X*W, X+W+Z etc) or only for some specific ones (e.g. X+W)?"
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Please refer this link ( mariofilho.com/can-gradient-boosting-learn-simple-arithmetic ) . This article talks about how boosting trees can model arithmetic operations like X*W, X/W, etc. Theoretically, it is possible. Trees are like neural networks, they are universal approximator (Theoretically). And I am stressing on the word Theoretically.
            $endgroup$
            – tam
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Ok thank you for this too. However, to start with both the other people here are claiming the opposite than you so it is quite difficult for me to draw a definite conclusion.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Also by the way at your answer you are saying "... has the capability of capturing different feature interactions". However, my question is whether is built-in in random forest (or in boosting algos). In a sense, linear regression also has the "capability" of doing this but exactly you will have to programme it i.e. add some lines of code where you are adding, multiplying some of the features etc.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago














          3












          3








          3





          $begingroup$

          I think it is true. Tree based algorithms especially the ones with multiple trees has the capability of capturing different feature interactions. Please see this article from xgboost official documentation and this discussion. You can say it's a perk of being a non parametric model (trees are non parametric and linear regression is not). I hope this will shed some light on this thought.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          I think it is true. Tree based algorithms especially the ones with multiple trees has the capability of capturing different feature interactions. Please see this article from xgboost official documentation and this discussion. You can say it's a perk of being a non parametric model (trees are non parametric and linear regression is not). I hope this will shed some light on this thought.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited Mar 31 at 18:06

























          answered Mar 31 at 18:01









          tamtam

          914




          914












          • $begingroup$
            (+1) As an example,Tree 1 works with features (A, B) and gives 80% accuracy, Tree 2 works with features (C, D) and gives 60%. A boosting algorithm puts more weight on Tree 1, thus effectively favors f(A, B) over g(C, D).
            $endgroup$
            – Esmailian
            Mar 31 at 19:14












          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for your answer. However, to be honest I would like a more in depth answer. To start with, my second question is still unanswered I think: "Also if it true then is it about any kind of combination of features (e.g. X*W, X+W+Z etc) or only for some specific ones (e.g. X+W)?"
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Please refer this link ( mariofilho.com/can-gradient-boosting-learn-simple-arithmetic ) . This article talks about how boosting trees can model arithmetic operations like X*W, X/W, etc. Theoretically, it is possible. Trees are like neural networks, they are universal approximator (Theoretically). And I am stressing on the word Theoretically.
            $endgroup$
            – tam
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Ok thank you for this too. However, to start with both the other people here are claiming the opposite than you so it is quite difficult for me to draw a definite conclusion.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Also by the way at your answer you are saying "... has the capability of capturing different feature interactions". However, my question is whether is built-in in random forest (or in boosting algos). In a sense, linear regression also has the "capability" of doing this but exactly you will have to programme it i.e. add some lines of code where you are adding, multiplying some of the features etc.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago


















          • $begingroup$
            (+1) As an example,Tree 1 works with features (A, B) and gives 80% accuracy, Tree 2 works with features (C, D) and gives 60%. A boosting algorithm puts more weight on Tree 1, thus effectively favors f(A, B) over g(C, D).
            $endgroup$
            – Esmailian
            Mar 31 at 19:14












          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for your answer. However, to be honest I would like a more in depth answer. To start with, my second question is still unanswered I think: "Also if it true then is it about any kind of combination of features (e.g. X*W, X+W+Z etc) or only for some specific ones (e.g. X+W)?"
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Please refer this link ( mariofilho.com/can-gradient-boosting-learn-simple-arithmetic ) . This article talks about how boosting trees can model arithmetic operations like X*W, X/W, etc. Theoretically, it is possible. Trees are like neural networks, they are universal approximator (Theoretically). And I am stressing on the word Theoretically.
            $endgroup$
            – tam
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Ok thank you for this too. However, to start with both the other people here are claiming the opposite than you so it is quite difficult for me to draw a definite conclusion.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Also by the way at your answer you are saying "... has the capability of capturing different feature interactions". However, my question is whether is built-in in random forest (or in boosting algos). In a sense, linear regression also has the "capability" of doing this but exactly you will have to programme it i.e. add some lines of code where you are adding, multiplying some of the features etc.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago
















          $begingroup$
          (+1) As an example,Tree 1 works with features (A, B) and gives 80% accuracy, Tree 2 works with features (C, D) and gives 60%. A boosting algorithm puts more weight on Tree 1, thus effectively favors f(A, B) over g(C, D).
          $endgroup$
          – Esmailian
          Mar 31 at 19:14






          $begingroup$
          (+1) As an example,Tree 1 works with features (A, B) and gives 80% accuracy, Tree 2 works with features (C, D) and gives 60%. A boosting algorithm puts more weight on Tree 1, thus effectively favors f(A, B) over g(C, D).
          $endgroup$
          – Esmailian
          Mar 31 at 19:14














          $begingroup$
          Thank you for your answer. However, to be honest I would like a more in depth answer. To start with, my second question is still unanswered I think: "Also if it true then is it about any kind of combination of features (e.g. X*W, X+W+Z etc) or only for some specific ones (e.g. X+W)?"
          $endgroup$
          – Poete Maudit
          2 days ago




          $begingroup$
          Thank you for your answer. However, to be honest I would like a more in depth answer. To start with, my second question is still unanswered I think: "Also if it true then is it about any kind of combination of features (e.g. X*W, X+W+Z etc) or only for some specific ones (e.g. X+W)?"
          $endgroup$
          – Poete Maudit
          2 days ago












          $begingroup$
          Please refer this link ( mariofilho.com/can-gradient-boosting-learn-simple-arithmetic ) . This article talks about how boosting trees can model arithmetic operations like X*W, X/W, etc. Theoretically, it is possible. Trees are like neural networks, they are universal approximator (Theoretically). And I am stressing on the word Theoretically.
          $endgroup$
          – tam
          2 days ago




          $begingroup$
          Please refer this link ( mariofilho.com/can-gradient-boosting-learn-simple-arithmetic ) . This article talks about how boosting trees can model arithmetic operations like X*W, X/W, etc. Theoretically, it is possible. Trees are like neural networks, they are universal approximator (Theoretically). And I am stressing on the word Theoretically.
          $endgroup$
          – tam
          2 days ago












          $begingroup$
          Ok thank you for this too. However, to start with both the other people here are claiming the opposite than you so it is quite difficult for me to draw a definite conclusion.
          $endgroup$
          – Poete Maudit
          2 days ago




          $begingroup$
          Ok thank you for this too. However, to start with both the other people here are claiming the opposite than you so it is quite difficult for me to draw a definite conclusion.
          $endgroup$
          – Poete Maudit
          2 days ago












          $begingroup$
          Also by the way at your answer you are saying "... has the capability of capturing different feature interactions". However, my question is whether is built-in in random forest (or in boosting algos). In a sense, linear regression also has the "capability" of doing this but exactly you will have to programme it i.e. add some lines of code where you are adding, multiplying some of the features etc.
          $endgroup$
          – Poete Maudit
          2 days ago




          $begingroup$
          Also by the way at your answer you are saying "... has the capability of capturing different feature interactions". However, my question is whether is built-in in random forest (or in boosting algos). In a sense, linear regression also has the "capability" of doing this but exactly you will have to programme it i.e. add some lines of code where you are adding, multiplying some of the features etc.
          $endgroup$
          – Poete Maudit
          2 days ago











          1












          $begingroup$

          I would say it is not true as Random forests which are made up of decision trees does perform feature selection but they do not perform feature engineering (feature selection is different from feature engineering). Decision trees use a metric called Information gain (which is total entropy minus the weighted entropy) as per which useful features are separated from bad features. Simply to say whichever feature exhibit the highest information gain on this iteration is chosen as the node on which the tree on this iteration is split or you can say which feature reduces the entropy(aka randomness) the most in this iteration is chosen as the node upon which the tree is split on this iteration. So if you data is text, trees are split upon words. If your data is real valued numbers, tree is split upon that. Hope it helps



          For more details check this






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for your answer. However, to be honest I would like a more in depth answer. To start with, my second question is still unanswered I think: "Also if it true then is it about any kind of combination of features (e.g. X*W, X+W+Z etc) or only for some specific ones (e.g. X+W)?"
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Yes as said in my previous answer, decision trees cannot perform feature engineering by themselves. They pick the right feature based on information gain which is called as the feature selection. So (X+W), (X*W) or any sort of simple or complex feature engineered features are not possible in case of tree based models. So answer to your second question is "No, Tree based methods cannot and will not perform feature engineering on their own". Hope it's clear
            $endgroup$
            – karthikeyan mg
            2 days ago












          • $begingroup$
            Now it is significantly clearer because your starting phrase "I would say it is partly true as Random forests..." confuses things a bit. So basically at my question your answer is "no it is not true; random forest does not take into account the combination of features e.g. X+W etc". It would be good to modify a bit your post because this is not evident.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            However, I will have to see some evidence on why the boosting algorithms do this while the bagging algorithms do not. Also, in the case of the boosting algorithms how the algorithm chooses which of the various combinations to test?
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Thanks for the suggestion, I've made the changes. And regarding your last comment, just to be clear, random forests comes under bagging algos and gbdt, xgboost comes under boosting. I'd suggest you draft another question explaining your last comment in detail along with your thoughts and understanding and link the question here, We will try our best to help you! Cheers
            $endgroup$
            – karthikeyan mg
            2 days ago
















          1












          $begingroup$

          I would say it is not true as Random forests which are made up of decision trees does perform feature selection but they do not perform feature engineering (feature selection is different from feature engineering). Decision trees use a metric called Information gain (which is total entropy minus the weighted entropy) as per which useful features are separated from bad features. Simply to say whichever feature exhibit the highest information gain on this iteration is chosen as the node on which the tree on this iteration is split or you can say which feature reduces the entropy(aka randomness) the most in this iteration is chosen as the node upon which the tree is split on this iteration. So if you data is text, trees are split upon words. If your data is real valued numbers, tree is split upon that. Hope it helps



          For more details check this






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for your answer. However, to be honest I would like a more in depth answer. To start with, my second question is still unanswered I think: "Also if it true then is it about any kind of combination of features (e.g. X*W, X+W+Z etc) or only for some specific ones (e.g. X+W)?"
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Yes as said in my previous answer, decision trees cannot perform feature engineering by themselves. They pick the right feature based on information gain which is called as the feature selection. So (X+W), (X*W) or any sort of simple or complex feature engineered features are not possible in case of tree based models. So answer to your second question is "No, Tree based methods cannot and will not perform feature engineering on their own". Hope it's clear
            $endgroup$
            – karthikeyan mg
            2 days ago












          • $begingroup$
            Now it is significantly clearer because your starting phrase "I would say it is partly true as Random forests..." confuses things a bit. So basically at my question your answer is "no it is not true; random forest does not take into account the combination of features e.g. X+W etc". It would be good to modify a bit your post because this is not evident.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            However, I will have to see some evidence on why the boosting algorithms do this while the bagging algorithms do not. Also, in the case of the boosting algorithms how the algorithm chooses which of the various combinations to test?
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Thanks for the suggestion, I've made the changes. And regarding your last comment, just to be clear, random forests comes under bagging algos and gbdt, xgboost comes under boosting. I'd suggest you draft another question explaining your last comment in detail along with your thoughts and understanding and link the question here, We will try our best to help you! Cheers
            $endgroup$
            – karthikeyan mg
            2 days ago














          1












          1








          1





          $begingroup$

          I would say it is not true as Random forests which are made up of decision trees does perform feature selection but they do not perform feature engineering (feature selection is different from feature engineering). Decision trees use a metric called Information gain (which is total entropy minus the weighted entropy) as per which useful features are separated from bad features. Simply to say whichever feature exhibit the highest information gain on this iteration is chosen as the node on which the tree on this iteration is split or you can say which feature reduces the entropy(aka randomness) the most in this iteration is chosen as the node upon which the tree is split on this iteration. So if you data is text, trees are split upon words. If your data is real valued numbers, tree is split upon that. Hope it helps



          For more details check this






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          I would say it is not true as Random forests which are made up of decision trees does perform feature selection but they do not perform feature engineering (feature selection is different from feature engineering). Decision trees use a metric called Information gain (which is total entropy minus the weighted entropy) as per which useful features are separated from bad features. Simply to say whichever feature exhibit the highest information gain on this iteration is chosen as the node on which the tree on this iteration is split or you can say which feature reduces the entropy(aka randomness) the most in this iteration is chosen as the node upon which the tree is split on this iteration. So if you data is text, trees are split upon words. If your data is real valued numbers, tree is split upon that. Hope it helps



          For more details check this







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 2 days ago

























          answered Mar 31 at 15:37









          karthikeyan mgkarthikeyan mg

          305111




          305111












          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for your answer. However, to be honest I would like a more in depth answer. To start with, my second question is still unanswered I think: "Also if it true then is it about any kind of combination of features (e.g. X*W, X+W+Z etc) or only for some specific ones (e.g. X+W)?"
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Yes as said in my previous answer, decision trees cannot perform feature engineering by themselves. They pick the right feature based on information gain which is called as the feature selection. So (X+W), (X*W) or any sort of simple or complex feature engineered features are not possible in case of tree based models. So answer to your second question is "No, Tree based methods cannot and will not perform feature engineering on their own". Hope it's clear
            $endgroup$
            – karthikeyan mg
            2 days ago












          • $begingroup$
            Now it is significantly clearer because your starting phrase "I would say it is partly true as Random forests..." confuses things a bit. So basically at my question your answer is "no it is not true; random forest does not take into account the combination of features e.g. X+W etc". It would be good to modify a bit your post because this is not evident.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            However, I will have to see some evidence on why the boosting algorithms do this while the bagging algorithms do not. Also, in the case of the boosting algorithms how the algorithm chooses which of the various combinations to test?
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Thanks for the suggestion, I've made the changes. And regarding your last comment, just to be clear, random forests comes under bagging algos and gbdt, xgboost comes under boosting. I'd suggest you draft another question explaining your last comment in detail along with your thoughts and understanding and link the question here, We will try our best to help you! Cheers
            $endgroup$
            – karthikeyan mg
            2 days ago


















          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for your answer. However, to be honest I would like a more in depth answer. To start with, my second question is still unanswered I think: "Also if it true then is it about any kind of combination of features (e.g. X*W, X+W+Z etc) or only for some specific ones (e.g. X+W)?"
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Yes as said in my previous answer, decision trees cannot perform feature engineering by themselves. They pick the right feature based on information gain which is called as the feature selection. So (X+W), (X*W) or any sort of simple or complex feature engineered features are not possible in case of tree based models. So answer to your second question is "No, Tree based methods cannot and will not perform feature engineering on their own". Hope it's clear
            $endgroup$
            – karthikeyan mg
            2 days ago












          • $begingroup$
            Now it is significantly clearer because your starting phrase "I would say it is partly true as Random forests..." confuses things a bit. So basically at my question your answer is "no it is not true; random forest does not take into account the combination of features e.g. X+W etc". It would be good to modify a bit your post because this is not evident.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            However, I will have to see some evidence on why the boosting algorithms do this while the bagging algorithms do not. Also, in the case of the boosting algorithms how the algorithm chooses which of the various combinations to test?
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Thanks for the suggestion, I've made the changes. And regarding your last comment, just to be clear, random forests comes under bagging algos and gbdt, xgboost comes under boosting. I'd suggest you draft another question explaining your last comment in detail along with your thoughts and understanding and link the question here, We will try our best to help you! Cheers
            $endgroup$
            – karthikeyan mg
            2 days ago
















          $begingroup$
          Thank you for your answer. However, to be honest I would like a more in depth answer. To start with, my second question is still unanswered I think: "Also if it true then is it about any kind of combination of features (e.g. X*W, X+W+Z etc) or only for some specific ones (e.g. X+W)?"
          $endgroup$
          – Poete Maudit
          2 days ago




          $begingroup$
          Thank you for your answer. However, to be honest I would like a more in depth answer. To start with, my second question is still unanswered I think: "Also if it true then is it about any kind of combination of features (e.g. X*W, X+W+Z etc) or only for some specific ones (e.g. X+W)?"
          $endgroup$
          – Poete Maudit
          2 days ago












          $begingroup$
          Yes as said in my previous answer, decision trees cannot perform feature engineering by themselves. They pick the right feature based on information gain which is called as the feature selection. So (X+W), (X*W) or any sort of simple or complex feature engineered features are not possible in case of tree based models. So answer to your second question is "No, Tree based methods cannot and will not perform feature engineering on their own". Hope it's clear
          $endgroup$
          – karthikeyan mg
          2 days ago






          $begingroup$
          Yes as said in my previous answer, decision trees cannot perform feature engineering by themselves. They pick the right feature based on information gain which is called as the feature selection. So (X+W), (X*W) or any sort of simple or complex feature engineered features are not possible in case of tree based models. So answer to your second question is "No, Tree based methods cannot and will not perform feature engineering on their own". Hope it's clear
          $endgroup$
          – karthikeyan mg
          2 days ago














          $begingroup$
          Now it is significantly clearer because your starting phrase "I would say it is partly true as Random forests..." confuses things a bit. So basically at my question your answer is "no it is not true; random forest does not take into account the combination of features e.g. X+W etc". It would be good to modify a bit your post because this is not evident.
          $endgroup$
          – Poete Maudit
          2 days ago




          $begingroup$
          Now it is significantly clearer because your starting phrase "I would say it is partly true as Random forests..." confuses things a bit. So basically at my question your answer is "no it is not true; random forest does not take into account the combination of features e.g. X+W etc". It would be good to modify a bit your post because this is not evident.
          $endgroup$
          – Poete Maudit
          2 days ago












          $begingroup$
          However, I will have to see some evidence on why the boosting algorithms do this while the bagging algorithms do not. Also, in the case of the boosting algorithms how the algorithm chooses which of the various combinations to test?
          $endgroup$
          – Poete Maudit
          2 days ago




          $begingroup$
          However, I will have to see some evidence on why the boosting algorithms do this while the bagging algorithms do not. Also, in the case of the boosting algorithms how the algorithm chooses which of the various combinations to test?
          $endgroup$
          – Poete Maudit
          2 days ago












          $begingroup$
          Thanks for the suggestion, I've made the changes. And regarding your last comment, just to be clear, random forests comes under bagging algos and gbdt, xgboost comes under boosting. I'd suggest you draft another question explaining your last comment in detail along with your thoughts and understanding and link the question here, We will try our best to help you! Cheers
          $endgroup$
          – karthikeyan mg
          2 days ago




          $begingroup$
          Thanks for the suggestion, I've made the changes. And regarding your last comment, just to be clear, random forests comes under bagging algos and gbdt, xgboost comes under boosting. I'd suggest you draft another question explaining your last comment in detail along with your thoughts and understanding and link the question here, We will try our best to help you! Cheers
          $endgroup$
          – karthikeyan mg
          2 days ago











          0












          $begingroup$

          No, it is not true.



          In Random Forest (or Decision Tree, or Regression Tree), individual features are compared to each other, not a combination of them, then the most informative individual is peaked to split a node. Therefore, there is no notion of "better combination" in the whole process.



          Furthermore, Random Forest is a bagging algorithm which does not favor the randomly-built trees (or their sub-trees) over each other, they all have the same weight in the aggregated output.



          It is worth noting that "Rotation forest" first applies PCA to features, which means each new feature is a linear combination of original features. However, this does not count since the same pre-processing can be used for any other method too.



          Here is a quote from this wiki page for more details:




          A decision tree is a flow-chart-like structure, where each internal
          (non-leaf) node denotes a test on an attribute.




          EDIT:



          @tam provided a nice counter-example for XGBoost, which is not the same as Random Forest. That is, tree boosting algorithms have a notion of "better combination" that, for example, favors (in regression) $f(X, Y, W)=X*Y+text{exp}(X+Y) + 0 times W$ over $g(X, Y, W)=0 times X + Y+W$ by placing more weight on $f$. Note that a sub-tree, or a complete tree represents a function $f(boldsymbol{X}=(X,Y,Z,...))$ over a specific region $R subset ({Bbb X}, {Bbb Y}, {Bbb Z},...)$ in the feature space.



          In XGBoost, without going into details, more weight is put on a function that leads to more decrease in the overall error, loosely similar to AdaBoost algorithm (XGBoost in more detail, Adaboost vs XGBoost). This is equivalent to favoring a complicated-combination-of-features over another one.



          Note that, a tree can approximate any continuous function $f$ over training points, since it is a universal approximator just like neural networks.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for your answer. My post triggered some opposing views and now in this sense I do not know yet which side to take. By the way, my impression is that the remark of @tam is not really directly to the point. The fact that tree boosting algorithms favor f(X, Y) over g(Y, W) does not necessarily mean that they take into account the combination of the features in the sense of e.g. X+W but they simply favor groups of features over other groups of features. Thus, not combination of features but groups of features (if I am not missing anything).
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            @PoeteMaudit I added an example.
            $endgroup$
            – Esmailian
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Cool, thank you. However, I will have to see some evidence on why the boosting algorithms do this while the bagging algorithms do not. Also, in the case of the boosting algorithms how the algorithm chooses which of the various combinations to test?
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            So your answer to my question is that "Note that, a tree can approximate any continuous function f over training points, since it is a universal approximator just like neural networks."? If so then this is interesting.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago
















          0












          $begingroup$

          No, it is not true.



          In Random Forest (or Decision Tree, or Regression Tree), individual features are compared to each other, not a combination of them, then the most informative individual is peaked to split a node. Therefore, there is no notion of "better combination" in the whole process.



          Furthermore, Random Forest is a bagging algorithm which does not favor the randomly-built trees (or their sub-trees) over each other, they all have the same weight in the aggregated output.



          It is worth noting that "Rotation forest" first applies PCA to features, which means each new feature is a linear combination of original features. However, this does not count since the same pre-processing can be used for any other method too.



          Here is a quote from this wiki page for more details:




          A decision tree is a flow-chart-like structure, where each internal
          (non-leaf) node denotes a test on an attribute.




          EDIT:



          @tam provided a nice counter-example for XGBoost, which is not the same as Random Forest. That is, tree boosting algorithms have a notion of "better combination" that, for example, favors (in regression) $f(X, Y, W)=X*Y+text{exp}(X+Y) + 0 times W$ over $g(X, Y, W)=0 times X + Y+W$ by placing more weight on $f$. Note that a sub-tree, or a complete tree represents a function $f(boldsymbol{X}=(X,Y,Z,...))$ over a specific region $R subset ({Bbb X}, {Bbb Y}, {Bbb Z},...)$ in the feature space.



          In XGBoost, without going into details, more weight is put on a function that leads to more decrease in the overall error, loosely similar to AdaBoost algorithm (XGBoost in more detail, Adaboost vs XGBoost). This is equivalent to favoring a complicated-combination-of-features over another one.



          Note that, a tree can approximate any continuous function $f$ over training points, since it is a universal approximator just like neural networks.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for your answer. My post triggered some opposing views and now in this sense I do not know yet which side to take. By the way, my impression is that the remark of @tam is not really directly to the point. The fact that tree boosting algorithms favor f(X, Y) over g(Y, W) does not necessarily mean that they take into account the combination of the features in the sense of e.g. X+W but they simply favor groups of features over other groups of features. Thus, not combination of features but groups of features (if I am not missing anything).
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            @PoeteMaudit I added an example.
            $endgroup$
            – Esmailian
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Cool, thank you. However, I will have to see some evidence on why the boosting algorithms do this while the bagging algorithms do not. Also, in the case of the boosting algorithms how the algorithm chooses which of the various combinations to test?
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            So your answer to my question is that "Note that, a tree can approximate any continuous function f over training points, since it is a universal approximator just like neural networks."? If so then this is interesting.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago














          0












          0








          0





          $begingroup$

          No, it is not true.



          In Random Forest (or Decision Tree, or Regression Tree), individual features are compared to each other, not a combination of them, then the most informative individual is peaked to split a node. Therefore, there is no notion of "better combination" in the whole process.



          Furthermore, Random Forest is a bagging algorithm which does not favor the randomly-built trees (or their sub-trees) over each other, they all have the same weight in the aggregated output.



          It is worth noting that "Rotation forest" first applies PCA to features, which means each new feature is a linear combination of original features. However, this does not count since the same pre-processing can be used for any other method too.



          Here is a quote from this wiki page for more details:




          A decision tree is a flow-chart-like structure, where each internal
          (non-leaf) node denotes a test on an attribute.




          EDIT:



          @tam provided a nice counter-example for XGBoost, which is not the same as Random Forest. That is, tree boosting algorithms have a notion of "better combination" that, for example, favors (in regression) $f(X, Y, W)=X*Y+text{exp}(X+Y) + 0 times W$ over $g(X, Y, W)=0 times X + Y+W$ by placing more weight on $f$. Note that a sub-tree, or a complete tree represents a function $f(boldsymbol{X}=(X,Y,Z,...))$ over a specific region $R subset ({Bbb X}, {Bbb Y}, {Bbb Z},...)$ in the feature space.



          In XGBoost, without going into details, more weight is put on a function that leads to more decrease in the overall error, loosely similar to AdaBoost algorithm (XGBoost in more detail, Adaboost vs XGBoost). This is equivalent to favoring a complicated-combination-of-features over another one.



          Note that, a tree can approximate any continuous function $f$ over training points, since it is a universal approximator just like neural networks.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          No, it is not true.



          In Random Forest (or Decision Tree, or Regression Tree), individual features are compared to each other, not a combination of them, then the most informative individual is peaked to split a node. Therefore, there is no notion of "better combination" in the whole process.



          Furthermore, Random Forest is a bagging algorithm which does not favor the randomly-built trees (or their sub-trees) over each other, they all have the same weight in the aggregated output.



          It is worth noting that "Rotation forest" first applies PCA to features, which means each new feature is a linear combination of original features. However, this does not count since the same pre-processing can be used for any other method too.



          Here is a quote from this wiki page for more details:




          A decision tree is a flow-chart-like structure, where each internal
          (non-leaf) node denotes a test on an attribute.




          EDIT:



          @tam provided a nice counter-example for XGBoost, which is not the same as Random Forest. That is, tree boosting algorithms have a notion of "better combination" that, for example, favors (in regression) $f(X, Y, W)=X*Y+text{exp}(X+Y) + 0 times W$ over $g(X, Y, W)=0 times X + Y+W$ by placing more weight on $f$. Note that a sub-tree, or a complete tree represents a function $f(boldsymbol{X}=(X,Y,Z,...))$ over a specific region $R subset ({Bbb X}, {Bbb Y}, {Bbb Z},...)$ in the feature space.



          In XGBoost, without going into details, more weight is put on a function that leads to more decrease in the overall error, loosely similar to AdaBoost algorithm (XGBoost in more detail, Adaboost vs XGBoost). This is equivalent to favoring a complicated-combination-of-features over another one.



          Note that, a tree can approximate any continuous function $f$ over training points, since it is a universal approximator just like neural networks.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited yesterday

























          answered Mar 31 at 16:20









          EsmailianEsmailian

          2,536318




          2,536318












          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for your answer. My post triggered some opposing views and now in this sense I do not know yet which side to take. By the way, my impression is that the remark of @tam is not really directly to the point. The fact that tree boosting algorithms favor f(X, Y) over g(Y, W) does not necessarily mean that they take into account the combination of the features in the sense of e.g. X+W but they simply favor groups of features over other groups of features. Thus, not combination of features but groups of features (if I am not missing anything).
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            @PoeteMaudit I added an example.
            $endgroup$
            – Esmailian
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Cool, thank you. However, I will have to see some evidence on why the boosting algorithms do this while the bagging algorithms do not. Also, in the case of the boosting algorithms how the algorithm chooses which of the various combinations to test?
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            So your answer to my question is that "Note that, a tree can approximate any continuous function f over training points, since it is a universal approximator just like neural networks."? If so then this is interesting.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago


















          • $begingroup$
            Thank you for your answer. My post triggered some opposing views and now in this sense I do not know yet which side to take. By the way, my impression is that the remark of @tam is not really directly to the point. The fact that tree boosting algorithms favor f(X, Y) over g(Y, W) does not necessarily mean that they take into account the combination of the features in the sense of e.g. X+W but they simply favor groups of features over other groups of features. Thus, not combination of features but groups of features (if I am not missing anything).
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            @PoeteMaudit I added an example.
            $endgroup$
            – Esmailian
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            Cool, thank you. However, I will have to see some evidence on why the boosting algorithms do this while the bagging algorithms do not. Also, in the case of the boosting algorithms how the algorithm chooses which of the various combinations to test?
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            So your answer to my question is that "Note that, a tree can approximate any continuous function f over training points, since it is a universal approximator just like neural networks."? If so then this is interesting.
            $endgroup$
            – Poete Maudit
            2 days ago
















          $begingroup$
          Thank you for your answer. My post triggered some opposing views and now in this sense I do not know yet which side to take. By the way, my impression is that the remark of @tam is not really directly to the point. The fact that tree boosting algorithms favor f(X, Y) over g(Y, W) does not necessarily mean that they take into account the combination of the features in the sense of e.g. X+W but they simply favor groups of features over other groups of features. Thus, not combination of features but groups of features (if I am not missing anything).
          $endgroup$
          – Poete Maudit
          2 days ago




          $begingroup$
          Thank you for your answer. My post triggered some opposing views and now in this sense I do not know yet which side to take. By the way, my impression is that the remark of @tam is not really directly to the point. The fact that tree boosting algorithms favor f(X, Y) over g(Y, W) does not necessarily mean that they take into account the combination of the features in the sense of e.g. X+W but they simply favor groups of features over other groups of features. Thus, not combination of features but groups of features (if I am not missing anything).
          $endgroup$
          – Poete Maudit
          2 days ago












          $begingroup$
          @PoeteMaudit I added an example.
          $endgroup$
          – Esmailian
          2 days ago




          $begingroup$
          @PoeteMaudit I added an example.
          $endgroup$
          – Esmailian
          2 days ago












          $begingroup$
          Cool, thank you. However, I will have to see some evidence on why the boosting algorithms do this while the bagging algorithms do not. Also, in the case of the boosting algorithms how the algorithm chooses which of the various combinations to test?
          $endgroup$
          – Poete Maudit
          2 days ago




          $begingroup$
          Cool, thank you. However, I will have to see some evidence on why the boosting algorithms do this while the bagging algorithms do not. Also, in the case of the boosting algorithms how the algorithm chooses which of the various combinations to test?
          $endgroup$
          – Poete Maudit
          2 days ago




          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          So your answer to my question is that "Note that, a tree can approximate any continuous function f over training points, since it is a universal approximator just like neural networks."? If so then this is interesting.
          $endgroup$
          – Poete Maudit
          2 days ago




          $begingroup$
          So your answer to my question is that "Note that, a tree can approximate any continuous function f over training points, since it is a universal approximator just like neural networks."? If so then this is interesting.
          $endgroup$
          – Poete Maudit
          2 days ago


















          draft saved

          draft discarded




















































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