Are there any thematic similarities between Shostakovichs' Symphony 5th and Beethovens' 7th symphony? [on...
Taking a look at the opening bars of Shostakovichs' Symphony 5th and Beethovens' 7th symphony 4th movement (bar 136 onwards) see below they sound kind of similar.
Somebody suggested (Radio 3 I think) Shostakovich did this intentionally, but I cannot find anything to support this. What is the truth of it and has there been any books, references ect that make the connection anywhere?
Shostakovich
Beethoven
theory harmony history analysis musicology
New contributor
put on hold as primarily opinion-based by Todd Wilcox, replete, Doktor Mayhem♦ yesterday
Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
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show 3 more comments
Taking a look at the opening bars of Shostakovichs' Symphony 5th and Beethovens' 7th symphony 4th movement (bar 136 onwards) see below they sound kind of similar.
Somebody suggested (Radio 3 I think) Shostakovich did this intentionally, but I cannot find anything to support this. What is the truth of it and has there been any books, references ect that make the connection anywhere?
Shostakovich
Beethoven
theory harmony history analysis musicology
New contributor
put on hold as primarily opinion-based by Todd Wilcox, replete, Doktor Mayhem♦ yesterday
Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
2
thank you for this question, what ever the answer will be, I am very happy that there are questions like this. II've been the greatest fan of shostakovich since 1965. I wish I could have written this music! (Then I could probably tell you the answer. Thanks to you I have found this site: khanacademy.org/humanities/music/music-masterpieces-old-new/…
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
This question asks for both an opinion and resources. Neither opinions nor resource requests are on topic here.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
The first interval in Shostakovich's piece is a minor 6th, the same interval played by the viola at measure 137 in Beethoven's piece. And both sections use a similar syncopated rhythm. But these aren't particularly unusual choices to make, so I'm not sure that the similarities are anything besides a coincidence.
– Kevin
2 days ago
As Todd said - the question is asking for opinion and resources. Off topic. Closed as Opinion based.
– Doktor Mayhem♦
yesterday
@Todd Wilcox I was not asking for an opinion though people have given that I was asking whether this was Shostakovichs' intention. As to the references I would say any answer should supported by a reference where appropriate see answers on math.stackexchange.
– onepound
20 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
Taking a look at the opening bars of Shostakovichs' Symphony 5th and Beethovens' 7th symphony 4th movement (bar 136 onwards) see below they sound kind of similar.
Somebody suggested (Radio 3 I think) Shostakovich did this intentionally, but I cannot find anything to support this. What is the truth of it and has there been any books, references ect that make the connection anywhere?
Shostakovich
Beethoven
theory harmony history analysis musicology
New contributor
Taking a look at the opening bars of Shostakovichs' Symphony 5th and Beethovens' 7th symphony 4th movement (bar 136 onwards) see below they sound kind of similar.
Somebody suggested (Radio 3 I think) Shostakovich did this intentionally, but I cannot find anything to support this. What is the truth of it and has there been any books, references ect that make the connection anywhere?
Shostakovich
Beethoven
theory harmony history analysis musicology
theory harmony history analysis musicology
New contributor
New contributor
edited 15 hours ago
onepound
New contributor
asked 2 days ago
onepoundonepound
1414
1414
New contributor
New contributor
put on hold as primarily opinion-based by Todd Wilcox, replete, Doktor Mayhem♦ yesterday
Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
put on hold as primarily opinion-based by Todd Wilcox, replete, Doktor Mayhem♦ yesterday
Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
2
thank you for this question, what ever the answer will be, I am very happy that there are questions like this. II've been the greatest fan of shostakovich since 1965. I wish I could have written this music! (Then I could probably tell you the answer. Thanks to you I have found this site: khanacademy.org/humanities/music/music-masterpieces-old-new/…
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
This question asks for both an opinion and resources. Neither opinions nor resource requests are on topic here.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
The first interval in Shostakovich's piece is a minor 6th, the same interval played by the viola at measure 137 in Beethoven's piece. And both sections use a similar syncopated rhythm. But these aren't particularly unusual choices to make, so I'm not sure that the similarities are anything besides a coincidence.
– Kevin
2 days ago
As Todd said - the question is asking for opinion and resources. Off topic. Closed as Opinion based.
– Doktor Mayhem♦
yesterday
@Todd Wilcox I was not asking for an opinion though people have given that I was asking whether this was Shostakovichs' intention. As to the references I would say any answer should supported by a reference where appropriate see answers on math.stackexchange.
– onepound
20 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
2
thank you for this question, what ever the answer will be, I am very happy that there are questions like this. II've been the greatest fan of shostakovich since 1965. I wish I could have written this music! (Then I could probably tell you the answer. Thanks to you I have found this site: khanacademy.org/humanities/music/music-masterpieces-old-new/…
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
This question asks for both an opinion and resources. Neither opinions nor resource requests are on topic here.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
The first interval in Shostakovich's piece is a minor 6th, the same interval played by the viola at measure 137 in Beethoven's piece. And both sections use a similar syncopated rhythm. But these aren't particularly unusual choices to make, so I'm not sure that the similarities are anything besides a coincidence.
– Kevin
2 days ago
As Todd said - the question is asking for opinion and resources. Off topic. Closed as Opinion based.
– Doktor Mayhem♦
yesterday
@Todd Wilcox I was not asking for an opinion though people have given that I was asking whether this was Shostakovichs' intention. As to the references I would say any answer should supported by a reference where appropriate see answers on math.stackexchange.
– onepound
20 hours ago
2
2
thank you for this question, what ever the answer will be, I am very happy that there are questions like this. II've been the greatest fan of shostakovich since 1965. I wish I could have written this music! (Then I could probably tell you the answer. Thanks to you I have found this site: khanacademy.org/humanities/music/music-masterpieces-old-new/…
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
thank you for this question, what ever the answer will be, I am very happy that there are questions like this. II've been the greatest fan of shostakovich since 1965. I wish I could have written this music! (Then I could probably tell you the answer. Thanks to you I have found this site: khanacademy.org/humanities/music/music-masterpieces-old-new/…
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
This question asks for both an opinion and resources. Neither opinions nor resource requests are on topic here.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
This question asks for both an opinion and resources. Neither opinions nor resource requests are on topic here.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
The first interval in Shostakovich's piece is a minor 6th, the same interval played by the viola at measure 137 in Beethoven's piece. And both sections use a similar syncopated rhythm. But these aren't particularly unusual choices to make, so I'm not sure that the similarities are anything besides a coincidence.
– Kevin
2 days ago
The first interval in Shostakovich's piece is a minor 6th, the same interval played by the viola at measure 137 in Beethoven's piece. And both sections use a similar syncopated rhythm. But these aren't particularly unusual choices to make, so I'm not sure that the similarities are anything besides a coincidence.
– Kevin
2 days ago
As Todd said - the question is asking for opinion and resources. Off topic. Closed as Opinion based.
– Doktor Mayhem♦
yesterday
As Todd said - the question is asking for opinion and resources. Off topic. Closed as Opinion based.
– Doktor Mayhem♦
yesterday
@Todd Wilcox I was not asking for an opinion though people have given that I was asking whether this was Shostakovichs' intention. As to the references I would say any answer should supported by a reference where appropriate see answers on math.stackexchange.
– onepound
20 hours ago
@Todd Wilcox I was not asking for an opinion though people have given that I was asking whether this was Shostakovichs' intention. As to the references I would say any answer should supported by a reference where appropriate see answers on math.stackexchange.
– onepound
20 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
2 Answers
2
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Who is the "somebody" who suggested the connection?
Whilst Shostakovitch wrote deliberately, I don't think he wrote it trying to evoke the Beethoven:
- The rhythmic emphasis is different - the Shostakovitch has a phrase with long notes starting on the beat, with a 32nd note just before the next strong beat. The Beethoven has the motion closer to the start of the phrase.
- The Shostakovitch has canonical string entries - it's the same line with staggered entries. The Beethoven doesn't do that - the string entries aren't canonical.
- They're harmonically different - the Shostakovitch is deliberately unsettling - you can't say for certain you're in a particular key. But the Beethoven sounds like one-chord-per bar - a completely different effect.
- The Beethoven passage looks like the preparation for a key change, so it's context is different - it's intended as a connecting passage rather than as a presentation of new material. In the Shostakovitch, it's the opening of the movement, so it's definitely not just a "transition passage".
- And finally the Shostakovitch sounds savage - again, completely different to the Beethoven.
The only justification I can see for drawing a comparison between the two is that they both feature high and low strings in a "conversational" passage. Apart from that, I just don't see it.
I suppose they both go up an interval then fall. They both go up a seventh which to the tone deaf like me might sound similar (ones augmented the other diminished) then they fall but by different intervals. This sort of connection passage is repeated later and I haven't checked whether the intervals are similar ever to the Shostakovich. The Beethoven is still very suprising and dramtic if not savage & menacing like the Shostakovich. In any case I appreciate your answer which of course is correct and I'm not sure why anybody thought they were quite similar.
– onepound
2 days ago
add a comment |
I don't believe that Shostakovich was thinking of Beethoven here. Of course he knew the 7th Symphony.
If anybody could answer this would be Gerard Schwarz. But he mentions the name of Beethoven only in another context. (2:06)
If you want to find an other similarity to Beethoven's 7th there is one in the accompaniment at 13:45, but this would be very, very searched.
I've copied here the whole subtitles:
(1:58) I think it's important to know that by the time we're here in 1937, composers were much freer about form. So, where Beethoven or Schuman pretty muchworked in the first movement
in what we call sonata form
where you have the exposition
where all the material is exposed,
the development, all that material is developed,
and the recapitulation,
where all that material is reprised;
a composer like Shostakovich,
yes, they did some of that,
and sometimes they did it absolutely
in an old fashioned way.
Other times, it was very free form.
This symphony's first movement,
even though it feels very organic,
it feels like it belongs the way it's written,
is very much in the style
of being free form.
It begins in an interesting way.
("Symphony No. 5" by Dmitri Shostakovich)
(3:07) It's an introduction,
but it's an aggressive introduction,
and it's a canon.
It starts with the cellos and the basses.
They play this [gentle instrumental music],
and then the violins play [gentle instrumental music],
and then the cellos and basses [gentle instrumental music],
and the violins [gentle instrumental music].
And then that canonic gesture carries on now.
thank you for your answer I will look at the link later. I take it the two extracts I've given do not sound similar to you too? Must be just me that got convinced when I was told many years ago.
– onepound
2 days ago
As Brian analysis shows there are more differences than similarities in the passages. You don't have to be depth as most people won't here like it will sound. 2-3 points are obvious: The instrument setting (strings), the up mouvement in bigger intervals and the imitation. You could say it's a similar picture - but not more.
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
I don't think the wall of text adds anything, here. Nobody's going to read it and, if they did, they wouldn't get anything out of it because there's no indication of what parts of the music the words are referring to.
– David Richerby
2 days ago
David, I will delete it later. OP and those who are interested can read it. The min. and sec. indicate the spoken text and the time in the video. Mind that not everyone here is english speaking and not everyone knows how to copy subtitles.
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
@DavidRicherby I read it and found it helpful. It gave me just enough context to be convinced the video sees no reason to even consider whether Shostakovich was trying to copy Beethoven. And it was much faster than watching an entire lecture.
– Kevin
2 days ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Who is the "somebody" who suggested the connection?
Whilst Shostakovitch wrote deliberately, I don't think he wrote it trying to evoke the Beethoven:
- The rhythmic emphasis is different - the Shostakovitch has a phrase with long notes starting on the beat, with a 32nd note just before the next strong beat. The Beethoven has the motion closer to the start of the phrase.
- The Shostakovitch has canonical string entries - it's the same line with staggered entries. The Beethoven doesn't do that - the string entries aren't canonical.
- They're harmonically different - the Shostakovitch is deliberately unsettling - you can't say for certain you're in a particular key. But the Beethoven sounds like one-chord-per bar - a completely different effect.
- The Beethoven passage looks like the preparation for a key change, so it's context is different - it's intended as a connecting passage rather than as a presentation of new material. In the Shostakovitch, it's the opening of the movement, so it's definitely not just a "transition passage".
- And finally the Shostakovitch sounds savage - again, completely different to the Beethoven.
The only justification I can see for drawing a comparison between the two is that they both feature high and low strings in a "conversational" passage. Apart from that, I just don't see it.
I suppose they both go up an interval then fall. They both go up a seventh which to the tone deaf like me might sound similar (ones augmented the other diminished) then they fall but by different intervals. This sort of connection passage is repeated later and I haven't checked whether the intervals are similar ever to the Shostakovich. The Beethoven is still very suprising and dramtic if not savage & menacing like the Shostakovich. In any case I appreciate your answer which of course is correct and I'm not sure why anybody thought they were quite similar.
– onepound
2 days ago
add a comment |
Who is the "somebody" who suggested the connection?
Whilst Shostakovitch wrote deliberately, I don't think he wrote it trying to evoke the Beethoven:
- The rhythmic emphasis is different - the Shostakovitch has a phrase with long notes starting on the beat, with a 32nd note just before the next strong beat. The Beethoven has the motion closer to the start of the phrase.
- The Shostakovitch has canonical string entries - it's the same line with staggered entries. The Beethoven doesn't do that - the string entries aren't canonical.
- They're harmonically different - the Shostakovitch is deliberately unsettling - you can't say for certain you're in a particular key. But the Beethoven sounds like one-chord-per bar - a completely different effect.
- The Beethoven passage looks like the preparation for a key change, so it's context is different - it's intended as a connecting passage rather than as a presentation of new material. In the Shostakovitch, it's the opening of the movement, so it's definitely not just a "transition passage".
- And finally the Shostakovitch sounds savage - again, completely different to the Beethoven.
The only justification I can see for drawing a comparison between the two is that they both feature high and low strings in a "conversational" passage. Apart from that, I just don't see it.
I suppose they both go up an interval then fall. They both go up a seventh which to the tone deaf like me might sound similar (ones augmented the other diminished) then they fall but by different intervals. This sort of connection passage is repeated later and I haven't checked whether the intervals are similar ever to the Shostakovich. The Beethoven is still very suprising and dramtic if not savage & menacing like the Shostakovich. In any case I appreciate your answer which of course is correct and I'm not sure why anybody thought they were quite similar.
– onepound
2 days ago
add a comment |
Who is the "somebody" who suggested the connection?
Whilst Shostakovitch wrote deliberately, I don't think he wrote it trying to evoke the Beethoven:
- The rhythmic emphasis is different - the Shostakovitch has a phrase with long notes starting on the beat, with a 32nd note just before the next strong beat. The Beethoven has the motion closer to the start of the phrase.
- The Shostakovitch has canonical string entries - it's the same line with staggered entries. The Beethoven doesn't do that - the string entries aren't canonical.
- They're harmonically different - the Shostakovitch is deliberately unsettling - you can't say for certain you're in a particular key. But the Beethoven sounds like one-chord-per bar - a completely different effect.
- The Beethoven passage looks like the preparation for a key change, so it's context is different - it's intended as a connecting passage rather than as a presentation of new material. In the Shostakovitch, it's the opening of the movement, so it's definitely not just a "transition passage".
- And finally the Shostakovitch sounds savage - again, completely different to the Beethoven.
The only justification I can see for drawing a comparison between the two is that they both feature high and low strings in a "conversational" passage. Apart from that, I just don't see it.
Who is the "somebody" who suggested the connection?
Whilst Shostakovitch wrote deliberately, I don't think he wrote it trying to evoke the Beethoven:
- The rhythmic emphasis is different - the Shostakovitch has a phrase with long notes starting on the beat, with a 32nd note just before the next strong beat. The Beethoven has the motion closer to the start of the phrase.
- The Shostakovitch has canonical string entries - it's the same line with staggered entries. The Beethoven doesn't do that - the string entries aren't canonical.
- They're harmonically different - the Shostakovitch is deliberately unsettling - you can't say for certain you're in a particular key. But the Beethoven sounds like one-chord-per bar - a completely different effect.
- The Beethoven passage looks like the preparation for a key change, so it's context is different - it's intended as a connecting passage rather than as a presentation of new material. In the Shostakovitch, it's the opening of the movement, so it's definitely not just a "transition passage".
- And finally the Shostakovitch sounds savage - again, completely different to the Beethoven.
The only justification I can see for drawing a comparison between the two is that they both feature high and low strings in a "conversational" passage. Apart from that, I just don't see it.
edited 2 days ago
answered 2 days ago
Brian THOMASBrian THOMAS
2,8291123
2,8291123
I suppose they both go up an interval then fall. They both go up a seventh which to the tone deaf like me might sound similar (ones augmented the other diminished) then they fall but by different intervals. This sort of connection passage is repeated later and I haven't checked whether the intervals are similar ever to the Shostakovich. The Beethoven is still very suprising and dramtic if not savage & menacing like the Shostakovich. In any case I appreciate your answer which of course is correct and I'm not sure why anybody thought they were quite similar.
– onepound
2 days ago
add a comment |
I suppose they both go up an interval then fall. They both go up a seventh which to the tone deaf like me might sound similar (ones augmented the other diminished) then they fall but by different intervals. This sort of connection passage is repeated later and I haven't checked whether the intervals are similar ever to the Shostakovich. The Beethoven is still very suprising and dramtic if not savage & menacing like the Shostakovich. In any case I appreciate your answer which of course is correct and I'm not sure why anybody thought they were quite similar.
– onepound
2 days ago
I suppose they both go up an interval then fall. They both go up a seventh which to the tone deaf like me might sound similar (ones augmented the other diminished) then they fall but by different intervals. This sort of connection passage is repeated later and I haven't checked whether the intervals are similar ever to the Shostakovich. The Beethoven is still very suprising and dramtic if not savage & menacing like the Shostakovich. In any case I appreciate your answer which of course is correct and I'm not sure why anybody thought they were quite similar.
– onepound
2 days ago
I suppose they both go up an interval then fall. They both go up a seventh which to the tone deaf like me might sound similar (ones augmented the other diminished) then they fall but by different intervals. This sort of connection passage is repeated later and I haven't checked whether the intervals are similar ever to the Shostakovich. The Beethoven is still very suprising and dramtic if not savage & menacing like the Shostakovich. In any case I appreciate your answer which of course is correct and I'm not sure why anybody thought they were quite similar.
– onepound
2 days ago
add a comment |
I don't believe that Shostakovich was thinking of Beethoven here. Of course he knew the 7th Symphony.
If anybody could answer this would be Gerard Schwarz. But he mentions the name of Beethoven only in another context. (2:06)
If you want to find an other similarity to Beethoven's 7th there is one in the accompaniment at 13:45, but this would be very, very searched.
I've copied here the whole subtitles:
(1:58) I think it's important to know that by the time we're here in 1937, composers were much freer about form. So, where Beethoven or Schuman pretty muchworked in the first movement
in what we call sonata form
where you have the exposition
where all the material is exposed,
the development, all that material is developed,
and the recapitulation,
where all that material is reprised;
a composer like Shostakovich,
yes, they did some of that,
and sometimes they did it absolutely
in an old fashioned way.
Other times, it was very free form.
This symphony's first movement,
even though it feels very organic,
it feels like it belongs the way it's written,
is very much in the style
of being free form.
It begins in an interesting way.
("Symphony No. 5" by Dmitri Shostakovich)
(3:07) It's an introduction,
but it's an aggressive introduction,
and it's a canon.
It starts with the cellos and the basses.
They play this [gentle instrumental music],
and then the violins play [gentle instrumental music],
and then the cellos and basses [gentle instrumental music],
and the violins [gentle instrumental music].
And then that canonic gesture carries on now.
thank you for your answer I will look at the link later. I take it the two extracts I've given do not sound similar to you too? Must be just me that got convinced when I was told many years ago.
– onepound
2 days ago
As Brian analysis shows there are more differences than similarities in the passages. You don't have to be depth as most people won't here like it will sound. 2-3 points are obvious: The instrument setting (strings), the up mouvement in bigger intervals and the imitation. You could say it's a similar picture - but not more.
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
I don't think the wall of text adds anything, here. Nobody's going to read it and, if they did, they wouldn't get anything out of it because there's no indication of what parts of the music the words are referring to.
– David Richerby
2 days ago
David, I will delete it later. OP and those who are interested can read it. The min. and sec. indicate the spoken text and the time in the video. Mind that not everyone here is english speaking and not everyone knows how to copy subtitles.
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
@DavidRicherby I read it and found it helpful. It gave me just enough context to be convinced the video sees no reason to even consider whether Shostakovich was trying to copy Beethoven. And it was much faster than watching an entire lecture.
– Kevin
2 days ago
add a comment |
I don't believe that Shostakovich was thinking of Beethoven here. Of course he knew the 7th Symphony.
If anybody could answer this would be Gerard Schwarz. But he mentions the name of Beethoven only in another context. (2:06)
If you want to find an other similarity to Beethoven's 7th there is one in the accompaniment at 13:45, but this would be very, very searched.
I've copied here the whole subtitles:
(1:58) I think it's important to know that by the time we're here in 1937, composers were much freer about form. So, where Beethoven or Schuman pretty muchworked in the first movement
in what we call sonata form
where you have the exposition
where all the material is exposed,
the development, all that material is developed,
and the recapitulation,
where all that material is reprised;
a composer like Shostakovich,
yes, they did some of that,
and sometimes they did it absolutely
in an old fashioned way.
Other times, it was very free form.
This symphony's first movement,
even though it feels very organic,
it feels like it belongs the way it's written,
is very much in the style
of being free form.
It begins in an interesting way.
("Symphony No. 5" by Dmitri Shostakovich)
(3:07) It's an introduction,
but it's an aggressive introduction,
and it's a canon.
It starts with the cellos and the basses.
They play this [gentle instrumental music],
and then the violins play [gentle instrumental music],
and then the cellos and basses [gentle instrumental music],
and the violins [gentle instrumental music].
And then that canonic gesture carries on now.
thank you for your answer I will look at the link later. I take it the two extracts I've given do not sound similar to you too? Must be just me that got convinced when I was told many years ago.
– onepound
2 days ago
As Brian analysis shows there are more differences than similarities in the passages. You don't have to be depth as most people won't here like it will sound. 2-3 points are obvious: The instrument setting (strings), the up mouvement in bigger intervals and the imitation. You could say it's a similar picture - but not more.
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
I don't think the wall of text adds anything, here. Nobody's going to read it and, if they did, they wouldn't get anything out of it because there's no indication of what parts of the music the words are referring to.
– David Richerby
2 days ago
David, I will delete it later. OP and those who are interested can read it. The min. and sec. indicate the spoken text and the time in the video. Mind that not everyone here is english speaking and not everyone knows how to copy subtitles.
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
@DavidRicherby I read it and found it helpful. It gave me just enough context to be convinced the video sees no reason to even consider whether Shostakovich was trying to copy Beethoven. And it was much faster than watching an entire lecture.
– Kevin
2 days ago
add a comment |
I don't believe that Shostakovich was thinking of Beethoven here. Of course he knew the 7th Symphony.
If anybody could answer this would be Gerard Schwarz. But he mentions the name of Beethoven only in another context. (2:06)
If you want to find an other similarity to Beethoven's 7th there is one in the accompaniment at 13:45, but this would be very, very searched.
I've copied here the whole subtitles:
(1:58) I think it's important to know that by the time we're here in 1937, composers were much freer about form. So, where Beethoven or Schuman pretty muchworked in the first movement
in what we call sonata form
where you have the exposition
where all the material is exposed,
the development, all that material is developed,
and the recapitulation,
where all that material is reprised;
a composer like Shostakovich,
yes, they did some of that,
and sometimes they did it absolutely
in an old fashioned way.
Other times, it was very free form.
This symphony's first movement,
even though it feels very organic,
it feels like it belongs the way it's written,
is very much in the style
of being free form.
It begins in an interesting way.
("Symphony No. 5" by Dmitri Shostakovich)
(3:07) It's an introduction,
but it's an aggressive introduction,
and it's a canon.
It starts with the cellos and the basses.
They play this [gentle instrumental music],
and then the violins play [gentle instrumental music],
and then the cellos and basses [gentle instrumental music],
and the violins [gentle instrumental music].
And then that canonic gesture carries on now.
I don't believe that Shostakovich was thinking of Beethoven here. Of course he knew the 7th Symphony.
If anybody could answer this would be Gerard Schwarz. But he mentions the name of Beethoven only in another context. (2:06)
If you want to find an other similarity to Beethoven's 7th there is one in the accompaniment at 13:45, but this would be very, very searched.
I've copied here the whole subtitles:
(1:58) I think it's important to know that by the time we're here in 1937, composers were much freer about form. So, where Beethoven or Schuman pretty muchworked in the first movement
in what we call sonata form
where you have the exposition
where all the material is exposed,
the development, all that material is developed,
and the recapitulation,
where all that material is reprised;
a composer like Shostakovich,
yes, they did some of that,
and sometimes they did it absolutely
in an old fashioned way.
Other times, it was very free form.
This symphony's first movement,
even though it feels very organic,
it feels like it belongs the way it's written,
is very much in the style
of being free form.
It begins in an interesting way.
("Symphony No. 5" by Dmitri Shostakovich)
(3:07) It's an introduction,
but it's an aggressive introduction,
and it's a canon.
It starts with the cellos and the basses.
They play this [gentle instrumental music],
and then the violins play [gentle instrumental music],
and then the cellos and basses [gentle instrumental music],
and the violins [gentle instrumental music].
And then that canonic gesture carries on now.
edited 2 days ago
Michael Seifert
1,466616
1,466616
answered 2 days ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
3,919220
3,919220
thank you for your answer I will look at the link later. I take it the two extracts I've given do not sound similar to you too? Must be just me that got convinced when I was told many years ago.
– onepound
2 days ago
As Brian analysis shows there are more differences than similarities in the passages. You don't have to be depth as most people won't here like it will sound. 2-3 points are obvious: The instrument setting (strings), the up mouvement in bigger intervals and the imitation. You could say it's a similar picture - but not more.
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
I don't think the wall of text adds anything, here. Nobody's going to read it and, if they did, they wouldn't get anything out of it because there's no indication of what parts of the music the words are referring to.
– David Richerby
2 days ago
David, I will delete it later. OP and those who are interested can read it. The min. and sec. indicate the spoken text and the time in the video. Mind that not everyone here is english speaking and not everyone knows how to copy subtitles.
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
@DavidRicherby I read it and found it helpful. It gave me just enough context to be convinced the video sees no reason to even consider whether Shostakovich was trying to copy Beethoven. And it was much faster than watching an entire lecture.
– Kevin
2 days ago
add a comment |
thank you for your answer I will look at the link later. I take it the two extracts I've given do not sound similar to you too? Must be just me that got convinced when I was told many years ago.
– onepound
2 days ago
As Brian analysis shows there are more differences than similarities in the passages. You don't have to be depth as most people won't here like it will sound. 2-3 points are obvious: The instrument setting (strings), the up mouvement in bigger intervals and the imitation. You could say it's a similar picture - but not more.
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
I don't think the wall of text adds anything, here. Nobody's going to read it and, if they did, they wouldn't get anything out of it because there's no indication of what parts of the music the words are referring to.
– David Richerby
2 days ago
David, I will delete it later. OP and those who are interested can read it. The min. and sec. indicate the spoken text and the time in the video. Mind that not everyone here is english speaking and not everyone knows how to copy subtitles.
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
@DavidRicherby I read it and found it helpful. It gave me just enough context to be convinced the video sees no reason to even consider whether Shostakovich was trying to copy Beethoven. And it was much faster than watching an entire lecture.
– Kevin
2 days ago
thank you for your answer I will look at the link later. I take it the two extracts I've given do not sound similar to you too? Must be just me that got convinced when I was told many years ago.
– onepound
2 days ago
thank you for your answer I will look at the link later. I take it the two extracts I've given do not sound similar to you too? Must be just me that got convinced when I was told many years ago.
– onepound
2 days ago
As Brian analysis shows there are more differences than similarities in the passages. You don't have to be depth as most people won't here like it will sound. 2-3 points are obvious: The instrument setting (strings), the up mouvement in bigger intervals and the imitation. You could say it's a similar picture - but not more.
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
As Brian analysis shows there are more differences than similarities in the passages. You don't have to be depth as most people won't here like it will sound. 2-3 points are obvious: The instrument setting (strings), the up mouvement in bigger intervals and the imitation. You could say it's a similar picture - but not more.
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
I don't think the wall of text adds anything, here. Nobody's going to read it and, if they did, they wouldn't get anything out of it because there's no indication of what parts of the music the words are referring to.
– David Richerby
2 days ago
I don't think the wall of text adds anything, here. Nobody's going to read it and, if they did, they wouldn't get anything out of it because there's no indication of what parts of the music the words are referring to.
– David Richerby
2 days ago
David, I will delete it later. OP and those who are interested can read it. The min. and sec. indicate the spoken text and the time in the video. Mind that not everyone here is english speaking and not everyone knows how to copy subtitles.
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
David, I will delete it later. OP and those who are interested can read it. The min. and sec. indicate the spoken text and the time in the video. Mind that not everyone here is english speaking and not everyone knows how to copy subtitles.
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
@DavidRicherby I read it and found it helpful. It gave me just enough context to be convinced the video sees no reason to even consider whether Shostakovich was trying to copy Beethoven. And it was much faster than watching an entire lecture.
– Kevin
2 days ago
@DavidRicherby I read it and found it helpful. It gave me just enough context to be convinced the video sees no reason to even consider whether Shostakovich was trying to copy Beethoven. And it was much faster than watching an entire lecture.
– Kevin
2 days ago
add a comment |
2
thank you for this question, what ever the answer will be, I am very happy that there are questions like this. II've been the greatest fan of shostakovich since 1965. I wish I could have written this music! (Then I could probably tell you the answer. Thanks to you I have found this site: khanacademy.org/humanities/music/music-masterpieces-old-new/…
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
This question asks for both an opinion and resources. Neither opinions nor resource requests are on topic here.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
The first interval in Shostakovich's piece is a minor 6th, the same interval played by the viola at measure 137 in Beethoven's piece. And both sections use a similar syncopated rhythm. But these aren't particularly unusual choices to make, so I'm not sure that the similarities are anything besides a coincidence.
– Kevin
2 days ago
As Todd said - the question is asking for opinion and resources. Off topic. Closed as Opinion based.
– Doktor Mayhem♦
yesterday
@Todd Wilcox I was not asking for an opinion though people have given that I was asking whether this was Shostakovichs' intention. As to the references I would say any answer should supported by a reference where appropriate see answers on math.stackexchange.
– onepound
20 hours ago